===FILE=== -k_RmRLcaKo - The PIC Chart - Diagnose Customer Problems like a Pro w Keenan author of Gap Sel.txt
https://youtu.be/-k_RmRLcaKo
The PIC Chart - Diagnose Customer Problems like a Pro w⧸ Keenan, author of Gap Selling (SBH 9)

[0:02] okay welcome to simple but hard Keenan [0:06] it's awesome to have you on here nice to [0:08] meet you bro pleasure to be here [0:10] okay so like I was telling you just [0:13] before this right uh simple but hard 15 [0:16] minute uncut podcast because the most [0:21] successful people or the people that [0:22] have found success in any given industry [0:25] oftentimes aren't doing anything crazy [0:27] complicated they're just doing this [0:29] simple fundamentals really well and [0:32] turns out a lot of times it's just hard [0:34] to do that consistently and when I think [0:37] of you right obviously Gap selling uh is [0:41] what kind of you're known for and the [0:45] other thing that really stands out to me [0:46] is your ability to diagnose problems and [0:51] you're able to do that at a much higher [0:53] level than than everyone else and so [0:57] um so when you think about like [0:58] problem-centric selling and [1:00] solution-centric selling how did you [1:02] like how did that really become apparent [1:04] to you that like hey I need to find the [1:05] problem not the solution [1:08] um watching other sales people so I [1:11] started so I sold my whole life I didn't [1:13] really have a style to it I don't think [1:15] I mean I'm sure I did but I didn't have [1:16] to give it a label [1:18] um but then I started Consulting and I [1:20] would watch sales people sell and it [1:23] just kept getting on my nerves I'm like [1:24] why are you talking about the product or [1:26] why should they buy that and I don't [1:28] understand why you're selling it and [1:30] they'd say oh it's going to close next [1:31] week I'm like why is it going to close [1:32] next week because they said and they're [1:34] it in procurement has it and this I'm [1:36] like okay that's great but why do they [1:38] need it well because they said they need [1:39] to achieve this and I'm like why do they [1:41] need to achieve that what happens if [1:42] they don't how do you know they can't [1:43] achieve that without what you've got and [1:45] the sales per with without what you're [1:47] selling and the salesman just look at me [1:48] blank in the face and I'm like well okay [1:51] it made Clues but I don't believe it and [1:52] so that was the first Domino for me [1:55] starting to really dig into this idea of [1:57] what's the difference between all the [1:59] other sales methodologies and what's not [2:01] and GAP selling I should say gapsing and [2:04] all the other sales methodologies and [2:05] look they're like anything else to say [2:07] that I create something completely [2:09] entirely new that never existed and I'm [2:11] way over here in the upper right hand [2:12] corner everybody else at the bottom left [2:13] corner is just would be it make me an [2:15] you know so there is if you [2:17] think about a uh [2:18] concentric circles or Venn diagram yeah [2:21] there's a little bit of overlap but not [2:22] very much [2:24] um in [2:25] what I like the way I like to leave it [2:27] because it's only 15 minutes so I'll [2:28] give it back to you how would I like to [2:29] leave it is this almost not almost every [2:31] other sales training is built around the [2:33] concept of viewing sales as a [2:35] transaction [2:37] Gap selling views sales from the change [2:40] management perspective your job is to [2:42] help with a client facilitate change and [2:45] that's an entirely different process [2:47] that's really interesting so when you [2:49] think about change management right like [2:51] organizationally that's a big thing if [2:53] you're going to move an organization [2:55] which I'm sure that's also what you do [2:56] when you go in and consult [2:59] um to to organizations what would you [3:02] say are like the key principles like if [3:04] you miss one of these and you're trying [3:05] to create change management it's over [3:07] yeah I think the first one is [3:09] understanding why you need to change [3:10] again [3:12] sales most sales technique [3:13] techniques training with anyone [3:15] so much time [3:17] when uh you know what the pain is or [3:20] something like that they really don't [3:21] flush out why you should change they [3:24] spend more time on the vision piece [3:25] right the transaction when you change [3:27] you'll get this and if if you change [3:30] we'll do this I I give you a test ask [3:32] anybody what problems they solve none of [3:34] them nine out of ten times they'll say [3:36] we help companies too [3:39] well that's that's not an existing [3:41] problem that's you talking about the [3:43] vision of where you'll take them so [3:44] there's really no change management [3:46] involved if you want to help someone [3:47] change you must start with why they [3:49] should change like what's going on today [3:52] in their organization that is when I say [3:55] untenable or intolerable and if you [3:58] can't uncover that before you start [4:00] talking about your product or service or [4:02] what the outcome should be you're not [4:04] helping manage change you're you're [4:06] making it more difficult you're [4:08] complicating it that's why people lose [4:09] to indecision and the status quo all the [4:13] time because they're complicating the [4:15] change process not actually helping with [4:17] it so you that's where the Gap comes in [4:19] when the Gap is fully formed it's kind [4:21] of easy decide I need to change [4:23] right but if you never get to that clear [4:26] problem then there is no Gap [4:30] interesting so what one thing that [4:33] really stands out to me about uh like [4:37] Gap selling that as a method right is [4:39] the problem identification chart and [4:42] really like it I'm pretty sure what you [4:44] say too is before you go talk to any [4:47] customers you need to have this this [4:50] pick uh filled out so that you know what [4:53] problems to look for [4:55] did you like how did you come up with [4:57] that what was the thought process behind [4:59] that man why is that so important so [5:02] it's a great question [5:06] there is something there's something [5:07] said about [5:10] um [5:11] the age-olds phrase that there's no such [5:14] thing as Eureka moments you know like we [5:16] those of us sitting in the outside think [5:17] they're oh Eureka I just you know solved [5:19] the world there's usually a lot behind [5:21] this and and the picture is probably one [5:23] of those I I'm gonna be perfectly [5:25] perfectly transparent I don't know [5:27] exactly the moment that I I created the [5:31] picture right [5:33] um I really don't but what I do know is [5:37] that when I was writing the book and [5:39] doing a lot of blogging I knew that it [5:42] that there was some finite set of things [5:46] that your product or service addressed [5:49] that you could go find I knew that it [5:52] wasn't infinite and I felt that people [5:55] were trying to make it infinite like [5:56] well I don't know if I can help there's [5:58] all kinds of stuff I'm like well not [5:59] really there's there's a finite set of [6:01] stuff that your product or service [6:03] solves right so if it's water you know [6:05] it's thirst it's dehydration it go you [6:08] know those are the root causes and the [6:09] problems are dying or cramps what right [6:12] so there's a finite set and if I spend [6:14] enough time thinking about those I can [6:16] boil that down to four or five or six [6:18] actual business problems and once I [6:21] understand what those business problems [6:23] are now it gets infinite because the [6:25] impacts are going to be different for [6:27] every single person on the world but [6:28] there's a like a bell curve there's [6:30] going to be a whole bunch of people that [6:32] have these types of impacts and then [6:34] root causes those can be almost infinite [6:36] too but again from a bell curve [6:38] perspective or a long-term perspective [6:40] there's a majority of root causes 10 15 [6:43] 20 30 doesn't really matter that create [6:45] the business problems that exist so the [6:47] idea with a pick is this if you fill out [6:49] a proper pick Let's just use ours we're [6:51] a sales training and sales consulting [6:53] firm right there's only four problems [6:55] that we solve [6:57] missing revenue or declining Revenue [6:59] long sales Cycles low average ASP and [7:03] average sales price and [7:05] um low win rates that's pretty much it [7:07] okay and those are the only problems [7:10] that sales organizations deal with so [7:12] all I have to do when I go in on a call [7:14] is quickly start asking questions you [7:16] know hey I know you you're interested in [7:18] sales trading what got you interested oh [7:20] I just don't think my sales team does [7:21] enough Discovery really are you finally [7:23] because of that lack of Discovery your [7:25] win rates are declining [7:27] no okay what are your win rates 12 [7:30] they're not declining but they're [7:31] horrible yeah [7:32] I asked three questions I've already got [7:34] to a problem so tell me more about now I [7:36] just go right to the back to the root [7:38] cause poor Discovery so tell me about [7:40] this discovery well they only asked me [7:42] for questions they jumped to the demo [7:44] well they don't really know what [7:45] questions to ask well they they tire [7:47] that they ask all these dumb questions [7:49] and the buyer gets tired and frustrated [7:50] and they just get off the call well look [7:52] what I just did I found three or four [7:54] things within the discovery that makes a [7:56] bad Discovery we solve those discoveries [7:57] and then turn around take those [7:58] discoveries and because of that your win [8:01] rate is only 12 percent then because [8:03] your win rate's only 12 what's the [8:04] impact of that our CAC our cost of [8:07] acquisition is through the roof [8:08] marketing's losing this they're [8:10] sending us 100 200 leads a month and [8:12] we're only turning uh a small portion [8:14] into opportunities and from those 100 [8:15] opportunities that we get we only turn [8:17] in 12 we're throwing away 88 [8:19] opportunities of a quarter [8:22] holy you even want to buy right now [8:24] and you're just listening and I did all [8:25] that from the pick [8:26] the pick told me where to go right the [8:29] pick creates the relationship between [8:30] them all wow so when it and and this is [8:34] like really one of those things that [8:36] sticks out to me as simple but hard [8:38] right if you like like it's truly so [8:41] simple if you have the pick if you have [8:43] the road map [8:44] it's it's a very clear path to what [8:48] questions do I need to ask in order to [8:49] uncover the problem and once I uncover [8:51] the problem then I can prescribe this [8:53] solution for it right [8:56] um why do people not use this is it that [8:59] they don't know how to make it is they [9:01] don't know that it exists what what do [9:04] you think about that so that's a [9:05] fantastic question and and what I've [9:07] learned since we've started uh training [9:10] people is it's twofold one and I don't I [9:13] don't know why this is so I can't answer [9:14] that question but one is our way of [9:17] thinking for 95 of most people is in the [9:20] what I can deliver so people are [9:22] constantly thinking you know I can make [9:25] this happen do you want to achieve what [9:28] do you need they keep thinking and [9:30] processing in the solution [9:32] very few people understand and know how [9:35] to diagnose they're just not good at it [9:39] right and so because you're not good at [9:41] it you don't practice it in your [9:42] day-to-day you just constantly tell and [9:45] share and convince of outcomes you're [9:48] really aren't very good at assessing the [9:51] second one is um sales people are in a [9:54] sales mindset they're always trying to [9:56] sell and so they don't slow down to [9:59] think well wait a minute if I can [10:01] actually understand what's going on [10:03] then I'd have a better understanding of [10:06] the sense of urgency and why they should [10:07] buy and I'd be in a better position to [10:09] sell they just get so caught up in their [10:12] own product service what it does which I [10:15] guess leads to the third reason is [10:16] organizations go through any sales [10:18] organizations training and I'll bet you [10:20] 90 of them if I'm generous 85 percent of [10:24] them spend no time talking about the [10:27] world of their buyers there's nothing in [10:30] the training that says so your CEO is [10:33] measured on these five things our [10:36] clients businesses whatever that we sell [10:39] right they're imagine on these five kpis [10:42] okay these five kpis are like a reverse [10:45] pick these five kpis are affected most [10:48] by these eight things and if these eight [10:50] things are not working they're unable [10:54] to achieve these kpis and if they can't [10:57] achieve these kpis this is what happens [10:59] to their business is what happens [11:00] against the competition this is what [11:02] happens with their output I don't know [11:03] what it is and so therefore that's why [11:05] our product was created so let's let's [11:07] educate you in your business world and [11:09] get you to understand all that [11:11] connective tissue and we'll talk about [11:13] our product they don't do that the other [11:15] way around talk about their product [11:16] maybe say two or three things that the [11:18] product fixes right or better yet does [11:21] for them and then sends them out into [11:23] the real world they don't even [11:24] understand the world they're going into [11:27] man that is powerful that is powerful [11:30] okay last last question and then I want [11:33] to get some places where I can send [11:35] people that want to learn more about you [11:38] um if you had to walk through like let's [11:40] just use low win rates for for your [11:44] company right and you walk through the [11:45] pick chart what might that look like [11:49] all right so if the business problem is [11:50] low win rates the some of the root [11:53] causes could be lack of sales training [11:56] lack of sales methodology inability to a [11:58] proper Discovery running to the demo too [12:01] quickly [12:03] um [12:05] they run to the demo too quickly [12:07] um not understanding the customer's [12:09] environment I'm not understanding what [12:11] the how the competition Compares against [12:13] it [12:14] um not understanding [12:16] um the the uh [12:19] industry or prospects processes so it [12:23] could be right could be any one of oh [12:25] not getting to the right decision maker [12:28] right [12:29] um you having a bad product there's a [12:31] root cause I can't fix it that's still a [12:33] root cause right not a not good product [12:34] Market fit right of the company you're [12:37] you're selling to so [12:39] um any one of those could be the the [12:41] concept for long the reason why you're [12:43] exposed long sales Cycles is that the [12:45] ones you do all right low conversion any [12:47] one of those could be the reason you [12:49] have low conversion why because if you [12:51] have low conversion it means that it's [12:52] taking your sales person a long time [12:54] just to me phrase your sales person [12:56] isn't a difficulty getting the buyer to [13:00] see why they should change so if your [13:03] salesperson is getting [13:05] oh my God if the salesperson is having a [13:07] difficult time getting the buyer to see [13:09] why they should change then the buyer's [13:12] not going to change so therefore if you [13:15] have a hundred deals and you can't get [13:18] the buys to see why they should change [13:19] then there's [13:21] 80 70 90 of them won't buy and the [13:24] reasons you can here we go watch now the [13:26] reasons they're having a hard time [13:27] seeing why they should change is you are [13:29] unable to uncover what the problem was [13:31] through Discovery you are unable to take [13:33] what you had in the discovery and [13:35] actually translate that into some sort [13:37] of Roi or some sort of understanding for [13:40] the buyer what happens if they don't [13:42] change so all those things I listed are [13:43] the reasons the buyer can't see it and [13:45] therefore I can't see it they're not [13:47] going to buy it they don't buy that [13:48] affects your your um your [13:52] um close rate and I'll give you this I [13:53] literally got an email the other I get [13:55] them all the time sometimes I tease [13:56] people this guy said hey I guarantee you [13:59] that we could help your business [14:00] because we do this and we do this and we [14:02] do this and I said great why do you [14:04] believe that [14:06] okay wrote them back I said okay why do [14:08] you believe you can help my business and [14:10] he responded with because we cut the [14:12] billing time in half we make it easier [14:14] for you to build your what do you call [14:16] those people your um hold on your um [14:18] bookkeeper we make it easier for your [14:20] bookkeepers to to reconcile [14:22] um we take out you know tons hours and [14:25] hours of manual labor at the end of [14:27] every month and every quarter above [14:28] that's how I know and I said I you [14:30] didn't answer the question [14:32] I wrote it back I said explain this to [14:33] me again how do you know why you can [14:37] help me [14:40] and he wrote back and he threw all that [14:41] stuff out again [14:43] so my point is he had no idea if he [14:45] could help me he had no idea he doesn't [14:47] know that I don't have a bookkeeper I [14:49] mean phrase he does I have a bookkeeper [14:51] he doesn't know that we don't have to [14:53] reconcile anything at the end of the [14:54] month we maybe maybe she spends two [14:57] hours a month reconciling things maybe [15:00] right so he doesn't know but yet he's [15:02] making the claim [15:04] that he can save me and he has no idea [15:07] that's what sales people do every day [15:09] they don't take two seconds to [15:10] understand who they're talking to and [15:11] try to understand can they actually help [15:13] someone they just keep saying I know we [15:14] can't because our product exists right [15:18] that's so good thank you so much where [15:20] can people find out about you [15:22] I'm not hard you put Keenan in Google [15:25] you put [15:26] sales Growth Company a sales Growth [15:28] Company in in Google you put you go to [15:30] LinkedIn I mean a sales Growth Company [15:33] in Keenan and you can't find me then I [15:35] don't know that I can help you like you [15:38] got bigger problems than I can help with [15:40] oh well hey thank you for coming on that [15:44] was one of the best uh descriptions that [15:47] I've found of like how important it is [15:49] to actually identify the problem and [15:52] another thing from your book that I love [15:53] is once you have the problem it makes [15:55] prospecting and content creation is so [15:57] much easier yeah because then you can [15:59] just talk about the problems and people [16:01] then because they feel understood [16:03] exactly all day all day man awesome

===FILE=== 08LcJjx4fmo - GAP Selling  How to run a sales gap analysis  Sales Discovery.txt
https://youtu.be/08LcJjx4fmo
GAP Selling ｜ How to run a sales gap analysis ｜ Sales Discovery

[0:00] i think it completely goes about saying [0:01] that discovery is one of the most [0:03] important parts of any sales process if [0:06] not the most important part now so many [0:08] salespeople use the discovery as a means [0:10] to an end which is oh i've got to ask [0:11] these five or six questions to get them [0:13] out of the way so i can show some value [0:15] or or demonstrate my product and often [0:17] those five or six questions are the same [0:18] to every single prospect i want to talk [0:20] about something called a gap analysis [0:22] which is really going to help us [0:23] rationalize and understand what we need [0:25] to do when running an effective [0:26] discovery our objective with a gap [0:28] analysis is really simple we want to try [0:30] and learn as much as we can about the [0:31] prospect's current state and the [0:33] objective of this is to then try and [0:35] understand what the future state is that [0:37] they're trying to achieve so where the [0:39] prospect is and where the prospect needs [0:41] to be this part in the middle is the gap [0:43] analysis this is where we discover the [0:45] value and this is why so much of buying [0:48] takes place in the questioning itself [0:50] so this is where a lot of sales people [0:52] go wrong they're very good at finding [0:54] the facts and the example here is a car [0:56] so they drive a honda record it's 160 [0:59] 000 miles it's 11 years old et cetera et [1:01] cetera these are the facts [1:03] then what they do is they diagnose the [1:05] problem so they uncover that it breaks [1:07] down and it has monthly maintenance [1:09] it's very little cargo space and they [1:12] can't take the family camping [1:14] what they don't do is talk about the [1:16] impact of these problems so here we have [1:19] the wife complains a lot about the [1:20] company which causes flights [1:22] consistently late for work left with one [1:24] car and then sales people very very [1:26] rarely only the very best ones start [1:28] examining the root cause so what's [1:30] causing these problems it's made from [1:32] cheap metal it isn't rust proof it's a [1:34] foreign castle parts are very expensive [1:36] and the previous owner didn't take care [1:38] of it so these are the root causes to [1:40] the problems [1:41] now the great sales people also do this [1:43] and this is where we start turning these [1:45] into emotions and understanding the [1:46] emotions that are affecting these [1:48] problems so how did it make them feel [1:50] frustrated angry left out trapped and [1:52] now we start examining the future state [1:54] where do they want to be they want money [1:56] so they can go on vacation they want to [1:58] take the family and camping trips they [1:59] want less contention with the wife [2:02] and they don't have to take the bus [2:03] anymore [2:04] and then lastly they bring the solution [2:05] in [2:06] now what a lot of sales people do is [2:08] they're very good at examining the facts [2:10] they're very good at uncovering some of [2:11] the problems they don't talk enough [2:12] about the impact or the root causes and [2:15] we very very rarely get into the [2:17] emotions that the individual is [2:19] suffering from [2:20] when they have these problems and these [2:21] root causes what we often do is we start [2:23] with facts and then we jump straight to [2:25] solution and as you can see we're [2:27] missing five really really important [2:29] steps out in that process one of the [2:31] most common questions i get asked is [2:33] well how do you do all that on one call [2:35] well the answer is you don't and you [2:37] don't have to there's an obsession in [2:39] modern selling particularly with sas [2:41] that everything needs to be achieved on [2:43] one call now it's very important that we [2:45] stop looking at our sales process as [2:47] different calls and demos it's about the [2:49] key information that we need to gather [2:51] to understand the robustness of the [2:52] opportunity and that takes different [2:54] times for different customers so stop [2:57] fixating about the call or the email [2:59] it's about making sure that during that [3:01] process we gather all of the information

===FILE=== 10gOVB9mhII - BOUNDLESS 2019 Keenan Gap SellingHow to Win With a Problem-Centric Sales Process.txt
https://youtu.be/10gOVB9mhII
BOUNDLESS 2019： Keenan, ＂Gap Selling—How to Win With a Problem-Centric Sales Process＂

[0:03] We have made it to the final keynote of [0:05] the day and we could not be more excited [0:07] for this one. Thanks to everyone who has [0:09] joined us throughout the day today and [0:11] if you're just joining in now, you [0:12] picked a great time for it. [0:14] Few people in the world of sales get to [0:16] go by one name and Keenan is one of [0:18] them. Keenan has been selling something [0:20] to someone for his entire life and has [0:23] been teaching and coaching sales for [0:25] over 20 years. [0:26] He's the CEO, president and chief [0:29] antagonist of A Salesman Inc. [0:31] which helps companies leverage 21st [0:33] century methodologies and tools to [0:35] accelerate their revenue and reach their [0:37] goals. [0:38] Named one of the top 50 most influential [0:40] sales and marketing people by Top Sales [0:42] World magazine every single year since [0:45] 2012. Keenan is also the author of Not [0:48] Taught and Gap Selling. [0:51] Finder of the elephant in the room, [0:52] Keenan calls it as he sees it and lets [0:54] nothing or no one go unnoticed. Please [0:57] join us in welcoming the cleanup hitter [0:59] for Boundless 2019, Keenan. Keenan, [1:01] how's it going? [1:02] What is up? I'm at the end. I don't know [1:05] if that's good or bad, but that last [1:07] dude was [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] awesome. [1:09] We're so thrilled to have you, Keenan. [1:11] Take it away. All right. All right. [1:13] Look, I'm going to jump in. [1:14] And thank you guys very much for having [1:16] me on. I appreciate it. I'm looking [1:18] forward to it and I'm going to help [1:20] those of you who listen in for sales, [1:21] you want to listen very closely because [1:24] it's about time we change the way we [1:26] sell. [1:27] Your buyers are tired of the traditional [1:29] way of selling. I'm tired of this I get [1:31] the stupid emails that that sales people [1:32] send all the time. We're just tired of [1:35] it. It's time we change the way we sell. [1:37] And the first thing I want to teach you [1:38] about change the way we sell is that [1:39] nobody gives a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about you. So when [1:42] you write an email, when you reach out, [1:44] when you're talking to the customer, [1:46] if all you're talking about is, "HEY, I [1:48] COUNT HOW MANY TIMES YOU PUT I in your [1:50] silly little email. How many times I is [1:52] in the voicemail. I'D LIKE TO TALK to [1:54] you about our product." Like that first [1:56] person or something like that or second [1:57] person. I suck at that stuff. But you [1:58] get my point, right? If you're talking [2:00] about our and our and we want and we [2:03] need and blah blah blah, you're focusing [2:05] on you. And if you're TALKING ABOUT YOUR [2:07] PRODUCT, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW [2:08] MANY TIMES you've been on the Inc. 500 [2:09] list, or if you're talking about where [2:11] you're located, if you're talking about [2:12] your customers, you're not selling. [2:14] You're setting yourself up to be a pitch [2:17] person, a pitch man or woman, and an [2:19] order taker. You're not selling and that [2:21] has to stop. WHAT YOU'RE DOING in that [2:24] situation is you're what I call [2:25] product-centric [2:26] and we're going to get off of [2:27] product-centric and we're going to move [2:29] to something else that's even better. [2:31] But before I show you how to stop [2:34] thinking about you and actually put your [2:36] customer first cuz that's what it's all [2:38] about. The customer cares about them. [2:40] They don't care about you. They don't [2:41] give a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about you. They care about [2:42] them and their problems and their issues [2:45] and their business and making their [2:46] business work. So we need to start [2:48] trying to respond to that need and we [2:51] need to start looking at it from the [2:53] customer's perspective, right? So the [2:56] first thing I want to do is change a [3:00] perspective. [3:02] We have been told for years [3:05] and it's reiterated over and over and [3:07] over [3:09] that people buy from people they like. [3:12] And maybe that's why we spend so much [3:13] time trying to be liked or focused on [3:15] ourselves thinking the customer or buyer [3:17] will like us. But here's the truth. [3:19] That's a myth. [3:23] If you think that people buy from people [3:25] they like, [3:26] you are sorely mistaken and you're [3:28] losing deals and you've been conned. [3:31] It's a con we've had for years and I'm [3:33] going to prove this to you. [3:35] People don't buy from people they like. [3:38] People buy for value. That's it. And [3:42] here it is broken down. In the left side [3:44] of the matrix, it's I like you, right? [3:47] That's I like you. On the bottom, it's [3:48] value. Well, of course, if I like you [3:52] and your product or service delivers [3:54] tons of value, then yeah, okay, you're [3:56] right. I'm going to buy, BUT I'M BUYING [3:58] FOR VALUE AND THE FACT that I like you [4:00] was like a like is it ADDED ADDITION? [4:02] It's a bonus, RIGHT? SO IT'S YEAH, I'M [4:04] GOING TO BUY AND LET'S HAVE A BEER. [4:06] THAT'S THAT'S THE BEST case scenario, [4:08] right? But if I you provide no value and [4:12] I don't like you, that's simple. That is [4:14] simple as it comes. It's like, "No." [4:16] It's usually no and [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] off. Like [4:17] people are pissed. IF YOU PROVIDE them [4:19] no value and you're obnoxious and don't [4:21] like you and you're pain in the butt and [4:23] you're disrespectful, of course, it's [4:25] no, I'm not going to buy and they want [4:26] to pop you in the nose, right? I mean, [4:28] just all I can think about is used car [4:29] salesman, right? So no value, no likey, [4:33] nothing. And you're lucky you don't get [4:34] punched in the nose. But look at this [4:36] next one. [4:38] There's no value, [4:40] but they like you? [4:42] That's your Uncle Milton's freaking [4:44] multi-level marketing, right? That's [4:46] your Aunt Mildred's, you know, [4:48] Tupperware party or your Aunt Mildred's [4:50] like, you know, [4:52] "Join my knitting club." Well, that's [4:53] her her cheap homemade jewelry. It's, [4:55] you know what? Hey, I like you, Uncle [4:57] Mil- Uncle Milton. I like you, Aunt [4:59] Mildred, but no, I'm not going to buy. [5:01] There is no value in what you're [5:03] selling. [5:04] No value whatsoever. SO I DON'T BUY. SO [5:06] PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY BE liked [5:09] and people won't buy. Now look at down [5:14] THIS IS THE BIG ONE. HEY, I don't like [5:16] you, [5:17] but there's tons of value. So yeah, I'm [5:19] buying. And I can like I can give you a [5:22] million scenarios [5:25] where you may not like somebody, but [5:26] you'll buy because if the value is [5:29] there, [5:30] if the value is there, you're going to [5:32] buy because what you're buying is not [5:34] friendships. YOU DON'T NEED GOLF [5:35] BUDDIES. YOU DON'T NEED FRIENDS TO GO [5:36] FISHING WITH AND you don't need friends [5:38] to go to the movies with to BORROW [5:39] STUFF. YOU DON'T NEED THAT. YOU HAVE [5:40] SOMETHING TO DO. YOU HAVE a job to get [5:42] done. You have goals to reach. You have [5:44] OPPORTUNITIES LIKE YOU'RE BUYING AND [5:45] SPENDING YOUR money with a goal [5:47] objective at the end of it and that has [5:49] almost never anything to do with a [5:51] friend. [5:52] So the more someone can help you achieve [5:54] your goals and your objectives and get [5:55] you to where you want to go and deliver [5:57] the value that you need and maximize [5:59] that value, they're going to buy even if [6:01] they don't LIKE YOU. SO STOP TRYING TO [6:03] BE LIKED [6:05] AND START TRYING TO BE CREDIBLE. Start [6:08] being a credible person who can help [6:10] somebody get to where they want to go [6:12] and you'll make more sales. [6:15] Cuz being liked is a waste of time. [6:18] So if we go past that, right? And how do [6:20] I want to break this down for you? So I [6:22] know many of you are thinking, "Well, [6:23] all things considered equal, right? You [6:25] know, you know, two products are out of [6:27] the same, then they're going to go with [6:28] the person they like." Okay, yeah, [6:31] maybe. And in that case, if all things [6:33] are exactly the same, IF THE ONLY VALUE [6:35] YOU CAN squeeze out of the sales that [6:38] you're a better salesperson, you're [6:40] selling for the wrong company and you're [6:42] selling the wrong [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] because there is [6:44] absolutely positively no product or [6:46] solution differentiation, what the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [6:50] ARE YOU DOING? WHY YOU EVEN WORK for [6:51] them? What why? What's the point? It'd [6:53] be amazing if you're even still in [6:54] business cuz all you really have is [6:56] price after that anyway. So no, it's [6:58] rarely rarely rarely, if ever, the same. [7:02] So stop saying that. Understand [7:04] differentiation. Be credible. Deliver [7:06] value. Stop worrying about being liked. [7:09] So when we talk about being liked or we [7:11] talk about providing value, the way you [7:12] bring value is you stop being [7:14] product-centric [7:16] and you start being problem-centric. [7:19] Okay? And here's here's how some ways to [7:21] look at the difference between the two. [7:23] PROBLEM-CENTRIC SALES PEOPLE, THEY TALK [7:26] about customer business problems, not [7:28] about their product. [7:30] Right? They focus on the buyer as [7:32] opposed to focusing on THEIR COMPANY. [7:35] THEY ASK PROBLEM-CENTRIC SALES PEOPLE, [7:37] THEY ASK QUESTIONS AND THEY'RE [7:38] INQUIRING. Product-centric people tell [7:40] and explain. I can't tell you how many [7:42] times I've gone on a call and the [7:44] customer says and the and customer sets [7:46] sales people up to be product-centric. [7:47] THEY LITERALLY SET YOU UP TO BE [7:49] PRODUCT-CENTRIC. They will say, "Hey, [7:50] we're we're calling cuz we're looking at [7:52] a new accounting system. Could you [7:53] please tell us about your product?" And [7:56] sales PEOPLE GET ALL EXCITED AND THEY [7:57] START TELLING. THEY JUST LITERALLY START [7:59] TELLING. Problem-centric people say, "Be [8:01] my pleasure, but could you tell me a [8:02] little bit what's behind the call? Can [8:04] you tell me what you're struggling with [8:05] today? Can you tell me a little bit why [8:06] you even think you need a new accounting [8:08] system?" THEY ASK QUESTIONS and inquire [8:10] cuz they want to understand the mo- the [8:12] motive. They want to understand [8:14] what is uh driving the customer problems [8:16] they're facing so they can SOLVE THE [8:17] PROBLEMS. [8:18] PROBLEM-CENTRIC people are motivated by [8:20] the customer success. They get stoked [8:23] and they get pumped by being able to [8:25] help the customer achieve some business [8:27] goals, some business objectives, to [8:28] avoid SOME PAIN LIKE FINES, to avoid um [8:31] uh breaking the law, to avoid like in- [8:33] inadvertently by not meeting uh [8:35] mandates, by getting into new markets, [8:38] by getting more um people on board, by [8:40] improving CUSTOMER SATISFACTION. LIKE [8:41] THAT'S WHAT MOTIVATES a problem-centric [8:43] salesperson. A product-centric [8:45] salesperson doesn't concern themselves [8:47] with that. They are just motivated by [8:48] quota. That's all they care about, [8:49] quota. Right? Problem-centric people are [8:52] business analysts. They don't take [8:53] things on the surface. They actually [8:55] dig. They try to understand what's [8:56] happening. They try to evaluate the [8:59] context of the environment that they're [9:00] working in and how that's affecting the [9:02] outcomes. Product-centric people, look, [9:04] y'all know a lot about the product. [9:06] You're trained in the product. You know [9:07] what the product does. You know what the [9:08] benefits are. But you don't do any [9:10] analysis. You don't add any critical [9:11] thinking to the process. You just say, [9:13] "Here it is. This is what it does. This [9:15] place it fits in. Do you think you can [9:16] use it, right?" Problem-centric people, [9:20] they have business discussions. They're [9:22] talking about the business first cuz [9:23] they understand at the end of the day, [9:24] that's what we're here for, business. [9:26] Product-centric people have technical [9:28] discussions cuz they want to talk about [9:29] the technical features and the technical [9:31] elements, THE TECHNICAL COMPONENTS. AND [9:33] YES, THOSE ARE enablers and and that's [9:35] awesome, [9:36] BUT ENABLING WHAT? THEY'RE THERE TO [9:38] ENABLE the business. IF THEY'RE NOT [9:39] ENABLING THE BUSINESS in a good way, [9:41] what's the point, RIGHT? PROBLEM-CENTRIC [9:43] PEOPLE CAN CREATE demand whereas [9:44] product-centric people react to demand. [9:48] Problem-centric people can dig into a [9:50] situation and understand what's going on [9:52] and say to the customer, "Listen, I know [9:54] that you thought you needed this, but as [9:55] we've been discussing and as we've been [9:56] talking and as you share your [9:58] environment, I think you need this [9:59] instead cuz it'll help you achieve THESE [10:01] GOALS. THAT'S CREATING DEMAND. [10:05] Product-centric people, the minute they [10:06] realize that the customer may or may not [10:09] may need their product, or say they want [10:11] their product, or have acknowledged it, [10:12] they say, "Great, I got it." And they [10:13] start SELLING IT. RIGHT BACK to freaking [10:15] number three, right? They start telling [10:17] and explaining. They just react to it. [10:18] There's no demand. The customer says, [10:20] "I'm not interested." Product-centric [10:21] people are screwed. They're stuck. They [10:24] can't move. [10:25] Right? Problem-centric people, their [10:27] emails and cold calls ask to discuss [10:29] business problems. Well, [10:31] product-centric, they ask to talk about [10:33] their product. You read it at the brand. [10:34] Yeah, like 50 minutes of your time so I [10:36] can talk about how my product can help [10:38] you. Well, if you DON'T KNOW MY PROBLEM, [10:40] HOW CAN YOU TELL ME HOW YOUR PRODUCT'S [10:41] GOING TO HELP ME? YOU CAN'T. [10:44] RIGHT? Problem-centric people know the [10:46] buyer's intrinsic motivations to change. [10:48] They're motivated by understanding why [10:51] the buyer wants to change, what the [10:52] buyer wants to do. [10:54] Well, product-centric people, they don't [10:55] know why the customer needs or wants to [10:57] buy, AND THEY DON'T CARE. [10:59] They just cuz the customer SAYS, "I NEED [11:01] TO DO IT." GREAT, HERE YOU GO, I'LL SELL [11:02] IT TO YOU. THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEIR [11:04] INTRINSIC MOTIVATION IS. THEY DON'T GIVE [11:05] A [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] because they believe they got to [11:07] sell cuz the customer said they want it. [11:08] They don't dig, they don't try to um [11:10] understand. Problem-centric people sales [11:12] people rarely compete on price cuz by [11:15] the time the price and discussion comes [11:17] up, the value has already been laid out [11:19] on the table. The problem-centric person [11:21] already understands the impact to the [11:23] organization, and they've already [11:25] compared that to the price of their [11:26] solution, and they know if the value's [11:27] there. So, they don't even have to [11:28] compete on price. BUT, THE [11:30] PRODUCT-CENTRIC PERSON, they have to [11:31] compete on price BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW [11:33] THE VALUE. THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT [11:35] THE INTRINSIC motivations are. THEY [11:36] DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE BUSINESS [11:37] OUTCOMES ARE. THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT [11:39] THEY'RE TRYING to accomplish. So, when [11:40] price comes up, THEY HAVE HAVEN'T GONE [11:42] THROUGH THAT PROCESS IN THEIR HEAD TO [11:43] SAY, "HEY, IS THE VALUE OF MY PRICE [11:46] worth what THEY'RE TRYING TO [11:47] ACCOMPLISH?" AND THEY DON'T KNOW. SO, [11:49] THEY THEY'RE QUICK TO LOWER THE PRICE [11:51] CUZ THE BUYER SAYS, "THAT'S TOO [11:52] EXPENSIVE." AND THEY'RE OKAY, it must [11:53] be. Their product is too expensive cuz [11:55] they don't understand what the boss [11:57] customer is buying. [11:58] Problem-centric people can challenge the [12:00] buyer. [12:01] When the buyer says, "Hey, I think [12:02] you're too expensive, or you don't have [12:03] this feature." The problem-centric [12:05] person can say, "Wait, I'm confused. You [12:07] said you're losing $10 million a month. [12:10] My product only costs $600,000 for a [12:12] year. That's 9.4 million. It's going to [12:15] make that go away. Why is that too [12:16] expensive?" [12:18] The product-centric sales person is [12:19] challenged by the buyer, and they can't [12:21] defend themselves, so the buyer keeps [12:22] pushing back. "You're too expensive." [12:24] The The product-centric person doesn't [12:26] know how much they're losing. So, they [12:27] say, "Oh my gosh, are you really?" And [12:28] they push them and say, "You need to do [12:29] this. You need to do that." Okay, okay, [12:30] okay, okay, I will, I will, I will cuz [12:32] they have no context for the possible. [12:34] They don't know what's going on. [12:36] Because of that, problem-centric sales [12:38] people can control the sale. They're in [12:40] complete control of the sale for all the [12:41] reasons I just stated. Product-centric [12:43] people are unable to control the sale [12:45] cuz all they know about and all they [12:46] really understand is that they have a [12:48] product that the customer says they [12:50] want, and that the customer says they [12:51] want certain they want certain features [12:53] that they have, and so they feel they're [12:55] in the game until they're not. So, they [12:57] have no control of the sale whatsoever. [12:59] The problem-centric sales person sells [13:01] an outcome. They're selling a business [13:02] outcome you SAID YOU WERE LOOKING TO [13:04] achieve cuz they understand that their [13:06] product is simply a conduit to that end [13:08] goal, and all they care about is the end [13:10] goal, [13:11] the outcome. [13:13] The product-centric selling PERSON HAS [13:15] NO IDEA what the outcome is. They're [13:16] selling features and benefits, and they [13:18] may have a slight idea, but that's all, [13:19] and they keep pushing the benefits. [13:22] Because of that, problem-centric sales [13:24] people don't have to try to close. The [13:25] close comes automatically. [13:27] They They see it coming. They anticipate [13:30] it. They build the They walk the buyer [13:32] through the whole process of solving the [13:34] problem. When you get to the end, it's, [13:36] "Yeah, this solves my problem. It's [13:37] going to work. Okay, let's move with it [13:38] move." The The product-centric person, [13:41] they've talked to product so often and [13:42] features and benefits so often at the [13:44] very end, they say, "Okay, you ready to [13:45] close? Does this work for you? Will it [13:47] work?" [13:49] And that's it. That's all they got. [13:51] Right? The problem-centric sales person [13:53] builds relationships on credibility. [13:56] Their credibility is someone who can get [13:58] stuff done. Well, the product-centric [13:59] sales person sells on likability. They [14:01] try to push their personality, and [14:03] because of that, problem-centric sales [14:05] people feel no need to be liked. [14:07] Well, product-centric people, they feel [14:09] a need to be liked because they can't [14:11] con- it connect and engage, and so [14:13] they're trying their best to um [14:16] to be liked and I think that adds value [14:18] to the conversation. [14:21] So, if your sales team or you are doing [14:23] any of this stuff on the right, it's [14:25] time to stop and think about why, and [14:28] it's time to stop being a [14:29] product-centric sales person and move to [14:31] a problem-centric sales person. [14:33] So, how can I help you with that? How [14:35] can I make your life easier in that [14:37] regard, right? [14:40] It's all about change. [14:43] Sales is all about change. When somebody [14:48] is thinking to buy something, they are [14:50] thinking about changing. They are [14:52] thinking about going through the process [14:54] of moving from where they are now to [14:56] where they want to go. And what that [14:57] means then is they are comparing [15:01] a current state to a future state. [15:06] They are literally asking themselves, [15:08] "Okay, where am I today? Am I happy with [15:10] where I am? Am I Do I appreciate what's [15:12] going on? What are the problems I'm [15:14] struggling with? What's the impact of [15:15] those problems? What am I going to do? [15:17] And what are my options to move [15:19] somewhere else? How can I make my world [15:21] better? How can I improve?" And so, [15:23] whenever we're looking to make a I DON'T [15:24] CARE WHAT THIS CHOICE OR decision is. [15:27] Whether it's the college you choose to [15:29] go, whether it's to get married or not [15:30] get married, whether it's to buy a new [15:31] accounting software, buy a new CRM, to [15:34] whatever IT IS YOU'RE PROCESSING, [15:38] THE BUYER'S natural [15:40] approach is to do a compare and contrast [15:45] from where they are today to where they [15:47] are tomorrow and the impact of making [15:49] that choice. So, therefore, if we're [15:51] going to sell and be problem-centric [15:53] sellers, then we need to build a selling [15:55] process that maps to that decision [15:57] process. [15:59] We do We need to literally sell to how [16:01] they think and how they process in [16:03] making a decision. And so, that's how [16:05] they do it. It starts with the current [16:06] state, and it go ends with a future [16:08] state. [16:09] So, if we're going to do that, then in [16:11] our approach to selling, the first thing [16:14] we need to do [16:15] as a sales person is do discovery. But, [16:18] not these [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] discoveries you've [16:19] been doing for the last Oh, crap, I [16:21] don't know. For the last 5 or 10 years, [16:23] we ask really high and lame-ass [16:25] questions like, you know, what keeps you [16:27] up at night, or can you tell me what [16:28] you're struggling with, what your key [16:30] problems are, or can you tell me what [16:33] you what you need? I mean, these are all [16:35] just silly-ass questions. [16:36] You need to start digging. [16:39] And you need to get these five elements [16:41] of their current state first. You need [16:44] to understand where they are today. [16:48] And these elements first include the [16:49] physical and literal. The physical and [16:51] literal is just a lay of the landscape, [16:54] right? It's literally a lay of the [16:56] landscape. And depending on what you're [16:58] selling, it could be the current [16:59] software they use, it could be the size [17:01] of the team, it could be the their [17:03] budget, it could be their um [17:06] Oh my gosh, it could be um the the the [17:09] structure of the team, it could be the [17:10] location of the team. It really depends [17:12] on what you're selling, but you really [17:14] want to understand what their special, [17:17] unique environment looks like. [17:20] Then you want to get to and understand [17:22] the problems [17:25] that they're suffering with. What [17:26] problems do they have that exist in that [17:29] current physical and literal state, [17:30] RIGHT? WHAT WHAT PROBLEMS DOES THAT [17:33] CREATE? WHAT PROBLEMS does the SOFTWARE [17:34] CREATE? WHAT PROBLEMS does the locations [17:36] create? What problems does the disparate [17:38] systems create? What problems does that [17:41] physical and literal state create or [17:43] establish? [17:44] Then from there, it's not good enough to [17:46] stop because as most sales people will, [17:48] then you need to move to the impact. [17:50] OKAY, GREAT. WHAT'S THE IMPACT TO THEIR [17:52] specific situation [17:55] that's caused that the problems are [17:56] causing. How do the problems cause or [18:00] what What What What impact do the [18:02] problems have on the organization? [18:04] Is it creating people causing people to [18:07] take more time? Are they losing money? [18:08] Are um Is attrition high? Is um [18:11] Um you know, I like I did a I did a [18:13] discovery today, and it really wasn't [18:14] even meant to be a discovery. Someone [18:16] called and asked me my wanted me to give [18:18] him 30 minutes of my time to to uh help [18:20] him with something unrelated. And then [18:22] it went on, they they run training for [18:24] their sales organization, and one thing [18:26] led to another. Next thing you know, I'm [18:28] doing a discovery on them about [18:29] potentially coming out speaking or [18:31] training their team. And uh as I asked [18:35] these questions, I started learning that [18:37] they had a 65% [18:40] dropout rate from new employees. [18:44] And then I asked further about that, [18:46] "Well, what's the impact of that?" And [18:48] they went on to say that that she went [18:51] on to say personally that she felt she [18:52] wasn't doing justice to the people that [18:55] they came in, and she felt that they [18:56] were leaving new hires high and dry cuz [18:58] a lot of these people were first time [19:01] were first time um uh um [19:03] uh like what do you call it when [19:04] someone's brand new? Um [19:06] Ah, it'll come to me in a second. This [19:08] is their first job. This is their first [19:10] job, right? So, it's really their very [19:11] first job, and they weren't providing [19:13] the support, the air cover, the [19:14] direction, or anything they needed. And [19:16] she felt that she was cheating these [19:18] people, and their organization was [19:19] literally She thought it was literally [19:21] She used the word immoral the way they [19:22] just took these people and threw them [19:24] into the [19:25] um into the into the [19:27] into the into the environment unprepared [19:29] to be successful, and they were getting [19:30] 8, 9, 10 months in, were failing, and it [19:32] was because of them. Well, the questions [19:35] I asked got to such a detail that I got [19:39] her emotions where she said it was [19:40] immoral. The impact was astronomical [19:43] because every year they were losing 65% [19:45] of the sales team. We're talking a lot [19:47] of people, which was costing them [19:48] hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not [19:50] potentially millions of dollars, in [19:52] hiring, in recruiting, and it it became [19:56] something like, "Hey, we need XYZ [19:59] support." And it turned into a massive [20:02] under [20:03] belly problem that I got to that I [20:05] was convinced not many people ever got [20:07] to. She knew it, but no one ever asked [20:09] her. She never actually was forced to go [20:11] through the process herself. So, the [20:12] impact of the problems they were facing [20:15] was massive, and the emotions that it [20:17] was causing her were were starting to [20:20] become personal. And she felt it [20:22] literally When you use the word immoral, [20:23] that's a big deal, right? And she [20:25] understood the root cause. The root [20:27] cause came down to leadership and a [20:28] whole bunch of issues around leadership [20:30] that they just weren't doing, weren't [20:32] prepared to do, weren't coached to do, [20:33] etc. So, as I dug this out, once I [20:36] understood all of this, [20:39] it was really easy to start bringing her [20:41] into the future state. And I said, [20:42] "Okay, I understand. What did you What [20:44] would you like to see? I mean, what [20:45] would the organization look like from a [20:47] physical and literal perspective [20:50] if you were able to address this?" And [20:51] she just for or what is the ideal [20:53] physical and literal state look like to [20:54] you? And she started walking me through [20:56] that. And I said, "So, if these problems [20:58] were gone, what would be the impact to [20:59] the organization now?" And she talked [21:02] about the [21:04] how she would feel better about the [21:05] organization. She talked about how she [21:08] believed that the people that are going [21:09] on hiring these these young kids in [21:11] their first-time gig would be more [21:13] successful. And she talked about people [21:15] not quitting and leaving. And she talked [21:17] about people staying on longer. And she [21:18] talked about the culture being a place [21:20] that people want to be a part of. And [21:21] she talked about increased energy. You [21:23] all of a sudden YOU COULD HEAR THE [21:24] CHANGE IN HER VOICE. YOU COULD hear her [21:27] envisioning everything that would [21:29] happen. AND NOTICE, I'M NOT HAVING TO [21:31] SAY ANYTHING. I'M JUST ASKING THE [21:33] QUESTIONS. I DON'T HAVE TO SELL HER ON [21:36] ANYTHING. SHE'S LITERALLY SELLING [21:38] HERSELF. [21:39] SHE'S LITERALLY GETTING THAT EXCITED. [21:41] ONCE I GOT HER SO UPSET AND FRUSTRATED [21:44] IN HER current state, and then I [21:45] transitioned her to the future state, [21:47] AND STARTED ASKING THE QUESTIONS TO GET [21:48] HER TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IT WOULD LOOK [21:50] LIKE. OR I MEAN, IT CHANGED. [21:52] SHE GOT SUPER EXCITED. [21:54] AND SO, BY THE TIME IT WAS DONE, SHE'S [21:56] LIKE, "OKAY, how do we do this? How do [21:58] we get you in here?" AND AND THE CALL [22:00] DIDN'T EVEN START with her even thinking [22:03] she called me for services. She called [22:06] me for an entirely unrelated thing. [22:09] So, that's the power. And then finally, [22:12] the solution of the future state, what [22:13] solutions address the root causes. Once [22:16] you know what the root causes are, what [22:18] solutions are you envisioning to address [22:20] the root causes? How does all of that [22:23] work? [22:24] So, that's what it's all about is when [22:26] you're going to do a discovery in a [22:28] problem-centric selling environment, you [22:31] don't EVER TALK ABOUT YOUR PRODUCT. If [22:33] you can go Oh, shoot. If you can go 90 [22:35] minutes Now, that's a bit of a stretch. [22:37] I'll go with this. If you can GO [22:39] 45 MINUTES WITHOUT EVER TALKING ABOUT [22:42] YOUR PRODUCT, you know you're heading in [22:44] the right direction. IF YOU START [22:45] TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOUR PRODUCT OR [22:47] service does after 5, 10, 15, 20 [22:49] minutes, you're not doing a discovery. [22:52] You don't know how to do a discovery, [22:53] and you're defaulting to product-centric [22:55] selling. You If you're really good, if [22:58] you do this right, and you go from [22:59] future state to [23:00] I'm sorry, from current state to future [23:02] state without ever talking your about [23:04] your product, and you get really, really [23:05] good, [23:06] they're just going to naturally say to [23:08] you, "Okay, what do we got to do?" [23:10] And then they might ask you how to do [23:13] it. But before you go there, there's one [23:14] other piece you got to do. [23:17] And that's measure the gap. [23:21] The measuring of the gap is basically a [23:23] simple equation, because really, the [23:25] difference between the current state and [23:26] the future STATE IS THE GAP. That's the [23:28] gap selling element. And the bigger the [23:31] gap, [23:33] the bigger the gap, [23:35] the more value there is in the deal. [23:39] So, when somebody is suffering with a [23:41] small gap, the space between where they [23:42] are today and where they could be [23:44] tomorrow, and the impact in their life [23:45] or their world or their business [23:46] tomorrow is small, then that's then [23:49] that's a small gap. And you Yeah, so you [23:51] could close that. People buy on small [23:53] gaps all the time. However, you can't [23:55] charge lots of money. [23:57] They're not high-end. They're really [23:58] fairly transactional. And so, because [24:01] there's not as much value, people aren't [24:02] willing to invest time, money, effort, [24:04] etc. into it. And so, and there's not [24:06] much of a sense of urgency. So, if the [24:07] sale's not easy, if it's not simple to [24:09] make happen, then it's not going to [24:11] happen. However, if you you can learn to [24:13] expand the gap. And really good sales [24:15] people ask the right questions and take [24:17] the buyer on a journey that broadens the [24:20] gap. So, they have a really good [24:21] understanding of that it's not just, [24:23] "Hey, I need leadership training." Or [24:25] it's not just, "Hey, I need a charger." [24:28] It's what is the whole impact of not [24:30] having that? How is it affecting your [24:31] chain? All of a sudden, people you take [24:33] them off the product, and you move them [24:35] onto the outcome, and you get them [24:36] focused ON THE GAP, AND THEY'RE LIKE, [24:38] "Oh my gosh." And they pay more. And [24:40] they have more urgency. And they work [24:42] with you more to get it done. And [24:43] they're happier that you're working with [24:45] them. And they're happy to make the to [24:46] buy. And so, you want to make the gap as [24:49] big as possible, but it has to be an [24:50] accurate gap. And you have to calculate [24:52] it, because the gap is what you're [24:54] selling. [24:55] The gap is what you're selling, and it's [24:57] where the intrinsic motivation lives. [24:58] And that's how you become [25:01] a problem-centric seller. [25:03] So, look, here's the deal. [25:05] You need to be a problem finder. [25:09] If you want to sell like this, and you [25:11] want to [25:13] make this happen, then you have to be a [25:15] problem finder. That needs to be the [25:17] start. Not find the pain, which is [25:22] The problem with finding the pain is [25:23] that the pain can be a symptom [25:26] at times. The pain Like, for instance, [25:29] you know, you go in and and you find the [25:31] pain, "Oh, I got a runny nose, I got a [25:32] cough, or something like cough lozenges, [25:34] or something like that." Well, the the [25:36] problem [25:37] was that I got a cold, or the problem [25:40] was I have Oh God forbid, I have [25:43] emphysema or lung cancer. WHAT GOOD IS [25:46] THAT LOZENGE? YOU DIDN'T FIND OUT AND IF [25:48] YOU COULD SOLVE ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS, [25:49] YOU SOLD me a a $1 product when you [25:52] probably could have sold me a [25:53] million-dollar solution. [25:56] Because you're too BUSY TRYING TO FIND [25:57] PAIN. PAIN DOESN'T HELP YOU. [26:00] Problems create pain. [26:02] Remember that. Problems create pain. [26:06] Don't find the pain, find the problem. [26:09] Then the thing is, part of the whole [26:11] What people do is they'll tell you they [26:12] have a need. Buyers will come to you and [26:14] say, "Yeah, I need this. I need that." [26:16] Well, the problem with that is, WHEN YOU [26:17] START TELLING PEOPLE what you need, it [26:19] assumes they know what they need. And [26:21] that's the second problem with this. [26:22] People don't always know what they need. [26:25] So, you got TO BE PREPARED TO FIND OUT [26:27] WHY THEY THINK THEY NEED THAT. Look at [26:29] yourself like a doctor. I COULD TELL YOU [26:31] RIGHT NOW, if my sorry ass walked into [26:32] the doctor and said, "Hey, I need some I [26:35] need some opioids. I need some Vicodin." [26:38] Doctor would be like, "You're high." No [26:39] pun intended, right? This is This [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [26:41] ain't happening. That is not flying. [26:43] NOW, I MAY ACTUALLY need that, but [26:45] before he gives it to me, he or she is [26:48] going to start asking questions and [26:50] trying to find out what the problem is. [26:53] Why do I need such a strong painkiller? [26:56] What is going on? What's behind it? And [26:59] once they understand the true problem, [27:01] then they may or may not provide you the [27:03] painkiller. They may provide me with [27:05] something else that's actually going to [27:07] solve my problem. And if they're in an [27:09] If I'm a really good patient and not an [27:11] addict, I'm going to be happy with the [27:13] fact that they gave me what I needed and [27:15] and helped me understand what my actual [27:17] problem was, and became a partner with [27:18] me in solving it and getting me to where [27:20] I want to go. [27:21] That's what this is about, right? It's [27:23] all being a problem finder. So, the [27:24] first you need to know is figure out can [27:26] you be a problem finder. I'm going to [27:27] help you out with this real quick. [27:29] This is how you do it. Before you start [27:32] making any more calls or getting in any [27:33] more discussions, I want you to write [27:35] down in one column all in one piece of [27:38] paper or a column, I don't care how you [27:40] do it. I want you to write down all the [27:41] real business problems that your product [27:45] or service solves [27:48] that your ideal customer profile could [27:50] have. Your buyers and customers could [27:52] have. Okay? Write down those problems. [27:54] Then, once you write down the problems, [27:56] next to that, I want you to write down [27:58] the impact [28:02] if that problem exists. [28:05] SO, IF THEY'RE HAVING A PROBLEM, no [28:06] matter what it is you sell, you should [28:08] be able to write down three, five, [28:10] seven, nine, even 10, 15 IMPACTS [28:15] TO AN organization that that problem [28:18] creates. [28:19] And and understand why. So, problem one [28:22] creates this problem and that I mean, [28:24] sorry. PROBLEM ONE CREATES THIS IMPACT [28:26] AND this impact and this impact and this [28:28] impacts the organization. [28:30] Okay? Then, you got to ask yourself, in [28:33] the next column, I want you to write [28:34] down why do the problems exist in the [28:36] first place, and what's causing them? [28:38] That's your root cause. Because once you [28:40] start writing THAT DOWN, THAT'S HOW YOU [28:41] BUILD CREDIBILITY. [28:43] SO, if you can start writing down two, [28:44] three, four, five, six, seven, eight, [28:46] nine [28:47] potential reasons or root causes why the [28:50] problems exist in THE FIRST PLACE, YOU [28:52] NOW have a full understanding [28:56] of what is going on in their [28:57] organization, and you can start engaging [28:59] your buyers and customers through any [29:01] one of these these avenues. They're [29:03] almost like windows. YOU CAN START [29:04] TRYING TO engage a conversation around [29:06] the impacts. And then when they say, [29:08] "Yes, this is going on in the [29:09] organization," you go back and say, [29:11] "Could it be from this problem?" And [29:12] they could say, "Yes." You can say, [29:13] "Well, let me tell you WHY THAT PROBLEM [29:14] EXISTS, AND WE CAN HELP YOU OUT WITH [29:16] THAT." You literally have the [29:18] opportunity to start the conversations, [29:22] and [29:24] um [29:25] you can literally start the [29:26] conversations [29:27] with the problem, and stay in the [29:29] problem. YOU DON'T HAVE TO TALK about [29:31] your product anymore. You literally [29:33] don't. You can start engaging them in [29:35] problems that resonate with them. And [29:36] here's the best part. If they don't have [29:38] the problems, then you're not wasting [29:39] your time trying to sell them. [29:41] Because if you they don't have the [29:42] problems, you can't help them. If you [29:43] can't help them, they're not going to [29:44] buy. [29:45] So, do this. Take the time [29:48] and do this and get at least five or six [29:51] critical business problems you know your [29:53] buyers have or could have that your [29:55] product solves [29:57] and start trying to engage customers on [29:59] that. [30:01] Once you've done that, [30:03] once you have actually [30:06] gone through the process and got the [30:08] buyer to acknowledge they have a [30:10] problem, [30:12] it's a problem that you can fix, [30:14] they want to solve the problem and they [30:17] want to go with you on the journey to [30:18] solve the problem. Once you have that, [30:21] then you have a real opportunity [30:25] and then you have the and you understand [30:27] the gap and you understand the intrinsic [30:29] motivation and you understand the [30:30] current state and you understand the [30:31] future state and you've properly [30:33] diagnosed [30:35] what's going on, [30:37] then you can start to sell. [30:41] That's the only time you can start to [30:42] sell. [30:43] Right? Until then, you can't talk about [30:45] your product. You can't talk about your [30:47] service. You can't talk about you or [30:49] your company how long you've been in [30:51] because it offers no value. [30:53] It offers no value whatsoever. The value [30:56] comes in only when you're able to take [30:59] that information and plug it in [31:02] as a conduit, as an engine to getting [31:05] them to a desired outcome and [31:07] transitioning them [31:09] from a current an undesired current [31:11] state to a desired future state. [31:14] And understanding the gap in between the [31:16] space. And what's really cool about [31:18] this, I'm going to throw a little [31:18] psychology on you, I'm going to mess [31:20] with you here. [31:21] What's really cool about this is this. [31:24] If you know anything about [31:25] decision-making and psychology, they say [31:27] that people basically make decisions on [31:30] one or two things. [31:31] They move away from pain or they move to [31:34] pleasure. Right? They argue that's [31:36] pretty much that drives all of our [31:37] decisions. We're getting away from pain [31:39] or going to pleasure. [31:41] Well, when you sell like this and when [31:44] you gap sell, [31:45] you're literally leveraging the two [31:48] against each other. [31:50] You're literally moving the pain [31:55] Pain is on the current state side. [31:57] You're making them describe their pain [31:59] and live in their pain. [32:01] The future state is the pleasure side. [32:05] And you're making them start thinking [32:06] about living in the pleasure and how [32:07] pleasurable it could be when they move [32:08] on. And as long as you get those two in [32:10] the entire sales process, you continue [32:13] to emphasize those, reiterate those, and [32:16] remind them of those things, the current [32:18] state and the future state and the gap [32:19] and the pleasure and the pain, you can't [32:21] help but lose. I mean, I can't You can't [32:24] help but win. You can't lose. [32:27] So, that's why it's so important. So, [32:28] here's the last thing I'm going to say [32:29] as before I wrap up. [32:31] I hear people say all the time that they [32:32] do this and they and and they've been [32:34] doing it for years or they do a great [32:36] discovery, etc., etc. [32:38] And here's my test besides a CRM test, [32:40] which I'll get tell you about another [32:41] day. [32:42] If you've done discovery absolutely [32:44] right and you've done the gap selling [32:45] discovery correctly, when you're done, [32:47] it almost sounds like a fairy tale. [32:51] Right? It almost sounds like a fairy [32:54] tale. Think about how fairy tales are. [32:55] How do fairy tales start? They start, "A [32:57] long time ago in the forest." [33:01] Long time ago in the forest. WELL, WHAT [33:03] IS THAT? THAT'S THE CURRENT STATE, [33:05] physical and literal. Long time ago in [33:07] the forest, THERE WAS A PRINCESS. RIGHT? [33:09] OKAY, another physical and literal, [33:10] there was a princess. SHE LIVED WITH HER [33:13] FATHER THE KING AND HER three sisters. [33:15] That's more physical AND LITERAL. [33:16] EVERYBODY WAS HAPPY, MORE PHYSICAL and [33:19] literal, right? But then it goes to, [33:21] "However, [33:22] one night [33:24] an evil witch came in and evil witch, [33:27] problem, came in and she gave an apple [33:30] to the princess." Oh, now there's a [33:32] there's a and the princess fell asleep, [33:34] problem number two, evil witch and the [33:36] princess is asleep, right? That's [33:37] problem, right? The the the whole um the [33:41] whole village in in in whatever you call [33:44] it, castle and everybody was was [33:46] devastated, impact. Um the princess was [33:49] supposed TO MARRY THE PRINCE and now um [33:52] and and the prince was supposed to take [33:53] over the kingdom, but that can't happen [33:55] and now the evil prince has a chance to [33:57] come in and take it over, the impact, [34:00] right? THINK ABOUT THIS. THIS LITERALLY [34:02] moves you through AND EVERYBODY WAS SAD [34:04] AND UPSET. The the um [34:07] that speaks to the emotion. And then it [34:09] goes on further that the and it goes on [34:11] to say like, I don't know, shoot. Um and [34:13] the evil witch was was was hanging out [34:15] in the woods because if SHE MADE THIS [34:17] HAPPEN, THEN it's her her stepson who's [34:20] going to take over the kingdom. Ooh, [34:21] root cause, evil witch, blah, blah, [34:23] blah, right? Um so, IT PLAYS OUT LIKE A [34:26] FAIRY TALE. [34:28] AND THEN I COULD KEEP GOING into the [34:29] future where they want to go. They want [34:31] to you know, they want the girl to marry [34:33] the prince and if she can do this, this [34:34] can happen AND IT JUST MAGIC MARRIES IT. [34:37] IT'S AMAZING. [34:38] And that's the only way you know if [34:40] you've done this right. GO BACK AND SEE [34:42] IF YOU CAN tell the story, the whole [34:44] story. Physical and literal, problem, [34:47] impact, emotion, root cause, take them [34:49] into the future state. If it doesn't [34:50] sound like a story, you haven't got all [34:52] the information. You've left something [34:54] on the table and therefore you increase [34:56] the risk of not being able to control [34:58] control the sale. [35:00] And notice all of this happens without [35:03] ever having to talk about your product. [35:09] You can get all of this information, you [35:11] get all of this discussion, you get all [35:13] of this engagement [35:15] and you never have to talk about your [35:16] product. [35:18] And then finally, once you have the [35:20] fairy tale, [35:22] once you have the story, [35:24] now you can pitch and talk about you [35:27] and do what we've been taught to do for [35:29] years. But the cool part about it is [35:32] now, if you did this right and you're [35:34] smart, [35:36] you're not talking in general terms. [35:39] You're take creating a very very very [35:43] customized pitch, customized solution [35:47] that fits right in to what you're trying [35:50] to accomplish and addresses the gap, [35:52] addresses the problems, addresses the [35:54] impact, and shows them how you can help [35:57] them get to that desired future state [35:59] and desired outcome that they talked to [36:01] you about and therefore deliver [36:04] the value they want. That's how it's [36:07] done. That's what it's about. I hope [36:09] this was helpful. Now go be [36:11] problem-centric [36:13] and I'm here to ask questions. [36:16] All right. Awesome job, Keenan. Thank [36:19] you so much for finishing our day out so [36:21] strong. It was great to have you and [36:22] your energy wrapping up our day here at [36:25] Boundless. Do we have a moment for a [36:27] quick question? [36:29] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was hard. I'm not [36:31] going to [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you. I'm not I I [36:33] learned something from you. I'm never [36:34] going to do this again. [36:36] Not not for you guys, but I'm never [36:38] going to just give a presentation to a [36:39] blank screen. It's question and answer [36:41] only. That was hard. [36:43] Super hard. Well, we appreciate you, you [36:45] know, rising to meet the challenge. You [36:46] did a great job and we really appreciate [36:48] you being here today. Thank you. Um one [36:50] of our questions came from our YouTube [36:52] chat. Um [36:54] they We have some really good dialogue [36:55] happening between customers, which I [36:57] love I love seeing. [36:59] Um they are wondering how you would [37:01] tailor this problem versus [37:02] product-centric list of characteristics [37:04] when it comes to a company that sells a [37:06] product line in a fairly saturated [37:08] market in their industry. What might you [37:10] be able to share with them? [37:11] Okay, so Oh, that's tough cuz there's a [37:14] lot in that. So, it what I I think I [37:16] heard was there's a lot of products, a [37:18] lot of different products. So, what I [37:20] would probably start with I'd make a [37:21] list of the products that have the [37:23] biggest value to my customers and maybe [37:25] provide the the uh [37:28] the most value to my organization, let's [37:30] say [37:31] just a bit before that, solve the [37:32] biggest the biggest problems and the [37:34] ones that will help me most be [37:36] successful. Now, if it's a whole bunch [37:38] of small products, then what I would [37:39] start doing is I would start thinking [37:41] about how they all come together to [37:43] create a solution. So, I'm making this [37:45] up, let's say it's a cleaning products, [37:47] you got a bazillion different cleaning [37:48] products, then I'm going to think about [37:50] what areas do the whole group of all my [37:52] cleaning products address as a solution [37:55] and then I'm going to again say, "Okay, [37:58] um my products in this type of bundle or [38:01] in this particular fashion is better off [38:03] serving [38:04] uh uh [38:05] uh [38:06] what do you call it, commercial cleaners [38:07] versus home cleaners or it's better at [38:08] cleaning boats versus homes or whatever [38:11] the situation is. I'm going to narrow [38:12] that down to where the value of my [38:14] products come in. And once I figure out [38:16] where my products play best and the [38:18] biggest impact they have, then I'm going [38:19] to say, "Okay, what problems do these [38:21] people have? What problems do these [38:23] products solve that the people that I'm [38:26] going after have?" And is it is is it If [38:29] it's cleaning products, is it is it the [38:30] environment? Is it the risk of of of [38:33] chemicals and chemical exposure? Is it [38:36] speed of cleaning? Is it the the [38:38] intensity of the cleaning or that takes [38:40] a really long time to get [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] clean, so [38:41] it's efficiency and time and and cost [38:44] and money? Like I'm going to FIGURE OUT [38:45] WHAT PROBLEMS they are and then we'll [38:47] lead with those problems. Cuz at the end [38:49] of the day, NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE [38:50] BUYING, YOU'RE STILL TRYING TO SOLVE a [38:52] problem, SO IT'S YOUR JOB AS A [38:53] SALESPERSON to understand what those [38:55] problems are and how you can make those [38:57] problems go away. It too may take A LOT [38:59] OF TIME AND energy for you to sit down [39:00] and get really [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] real about what [39:02] you sell, but [39:05] it distills a set of problems in there [39:06] and you got to figure out why your [39:08] customers buy. Why your customer's [39:10] buying, what value they getting when [39:12] they buy what it is you sell, and how [39:14] does that impact their organization and [39:16] start there. [39:18] Absolutely. Well, thank you again so [39:20] much, Keenan. It has been our pleasure [39:22] having you on the virtual stage. [39:25] Um we're going to move into some prize [39:27] announcements here up next, but thank [39:29] you so much again for joining us. [39:32] My pleasure. Appreciate it, sister. [39:42] Mhm.

===FILE=== 4aPEmrsS68k - Live Sales Pitch Gap Sell Keenan 64  - Get To The Problem Quick.txt
https://youtu.be/4aPEmrsS68k
Live Sales Pitch： Gap Sell Keenan 64  - Get To The Problem Quick

[0:00] look I was going to go easy on you not [0:02] to hurt your feelings you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [0:04] irritate the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] out of me I'm only [0:08] going to get this one chance it's just a [0:11] feeling I've got like something's about [0:13] to happen but I don't know what all I [0:16] here go get the money so I go get it ha [0:19] means I do something right so I'm hey [0:22] hey what's going on peeps it's Keenan [0:25] welcome to Gap cell Keenan episode [0:28] 64 where this is a real live salesperson [0:32] and my computer's jacked up I hope we [0:34] can get through this because it's going [0:35] slow for me I think I need a new [0:37] computer so I bet someone's gonna try to [0:40] come and sell me a new computer it's [0:41] telling me my CPUs are running slow I've [0:44] got everything closed I've got the most [0:46] expensive MacBook Pro you can buy with [0:50] all the upgrades and CPU units and and [0:53] RAM and I I just spent as much as you [0:55] possibly could so my CUO must be dying [0:58] so my apologies everybody with that [1:01] we're GNA jump in here in a minute yall [1:03] know how Gap selling works I mean sorry [1:05] Gap sell keina works it's a realiz [1:07] salesperson from a real company who is a [1:10] real product or service that they [1:12] believe me or my company needs and [1:16] they're going to try to sell me if they [1:18] find a problem we have and they can fix [1:20] it we will buy it if not they are [1:22] subject to my coaching and why they [1:24] screwed up so bad all right so today we [1:27] have a gentleman by the name of mat [1:30] defur let me bring Maddie [1:37] in uh oh let me oh it's O it is running [1:40] slow oh my goodness gracious and Maddie [1:44] is almost here oh my God I'm killing [1:49] myself Apple this is bad for you I have [1:51] it nothing open and your CPU is dying on [1:54] me all right man mat here live Matthew [1:57] is live welcome Matthew to furc to G [2:00] Keenan how you doing baby I'm doing very [2:02] good sir thanks very much for having me [2:03] on [2:04] today I'm excited I got you you're from [2:07] Boston you're from Boston I am from [2:10] Boston I'm up just north now up in [2:12] Portsmouth New Hampshire but uh was down [2:14] in Boston for quite a [2:16] while all right that's all right I can [2:18] roll with it I can roll with it so I am [2:20] a Boston guy myself so I got nothing but [2:21] love so let's hope Boston could [2:23] represent so here you go my man I'll [2:26] give you a minute or two just to explain [2:27] your product or your service what do and [2:30] then um we'll jump and then I'll let you [2:32] jump into it perfect perfect so [2:35] obviously I'm with language Io if you [2:36] forget here it's written right across my [2:38] chest um so language iio uh in a [2:42] nutshell language iio is the most [2:44] accurate and secure translation solution [2:46] for business so by plugging into most [2:49] common crms what we enable you to do is [2:52] communicate in over 150 different [2:55] languages via chat emails articles [2:59] social ch [3:00] channels um as well as now we have a [3:03] chrome plugin as well as an API that's a [3:06] self-service that can be utiliz for [3:08] developing custom Solutions so that's [3:11] more or less what we got I don't want to [3:13] bog too much down into the uh technical [3:15] details but that's what we got okay all [3:20] right so let's go the floor is yours [3:24] awesome so [3:26] Keenan I know recently you have done [3:30] training in [3:32] Singapore yes yes I didn't go to [3:35] Singapore but I did it with people from [3:36] Singapore yes great great perfect so um [3:40] that's probably a newer market for you [3:44] correct look it's 2023 right so we don't [3:47] I don't think in terms of markets so I [3:48] don't have a market know have a market I [3:50] just treat the world like one flat you [3:52] know Earth is flat dog one flat world [3:55] and people come in from us from all over [3:58] the world so yes [4:00] Europe yeah okay go one of those wants [4:02] to talk a lot already I can tell yes go [4:05] new experience for you per se so can you [4:08] tell me a little bit about the sales [4:10] cycle with that with that new experience [4:12] going into Singapore you tell me a [4:13] little bit about that sales cycle of [4:15] that Singaporean sales cycle yeah yeah [4:19] it really wasn't I mean it wasn't it was [4:21] a Sal cycle but not really so we worked [4:23] with a company this is a Fortune 50 [4:26] maybe a fortune 20 company they reached [4:29] out to Us in Australia to do training we [4:32] sold that training went really really [4:33] well everybody loved it so then they [4:34] recommended it to their Asian [4:36] counterpart and so their Asian [4:38] counterpart called us up we fig out what [4:40] they wanted to do found the Gap and then [4:42] they hired us so to say it was a short [4:45] easy sales cycle that'd be a lie but it [4:47] wasn't there was no Cole Kong involved [4:49] on that second one they didn't call us [4:51] up out of the blue and want to learn [4:52] more about us it was a internal [4:54] corporate referral great all right so [4:57] compare that to a sales cycle that [4:59] you've experienced in the past where [5:01] there was no uh different language [5:03] Market was it was it any longer because [5:06] of the language you experien a longer [5:07] sales cycle nope no there was no there's [5:11] no communication as far as trying to get [5:13] into different decision makers anything [5:15] like that communication was 100% in [5:18] English yep Singapore Singapore English [5:20] is one of the primary languages okay [5:23] okay all right so I'm GNA Swift gears a [5:26] little bit that was my Gap one working [5:27] up with my pict chart here okay uh so [5:33] okay nope you keep going all right so [5:37] all right [5:40] so kind of looking at that then so have [5:43] you have there been in any other [5:44] trainings that you've experienced that [5:47] have gone into experience any different [5:49] languages or is everything much 100% [5:51] English okay can you tell me a little [5:52] bit about those so I had to train an [5:55] organization in China and I had to have [5:57] a translator so that was in interesting [5:59] for the entire training I talked the [6:01] translator talked he said what they said [6:03] I talked he said what I said and went [6:05] back and forth um in this training that [6:08] I did in Singapore there were people who [6:10] spoke um who [6:13] spoke [6:14] Tai Filipino I don't think it's Filipino [6:18] as the language I apologize folks if it [6:20] isn't um [6:23] Vietnamese [6:25] Mandarin and Japanese I believe I've [6:28] also had clients in bra but we did all [6:30] in English but their their first [6:31] language was in English um and then we [6:34] did one I did had to climb Brazil for [6:36] quite some time we did all in English [6:38] but you know some most people spoke [6:40] Portuguese and sometimes theyd have to [6:42] slow down the big one for me is even [6:43] English speakers I talk so goddamn fast [6:45] right um but yes um we did it there and [6:49] I'm sure this oh we have a CL I have a [6:51] client right now who is in Norway [6:55] India and the Netherlands they're Dutch [6:58] and they're all we're doing it in [6:59] English but they oh in Sweden but they [7:01] have their people all over so I have a [7:03] lot of clients who I do it in English [7:04] but they're Prime that's their second [7:06] language okay so setting these up and [7:09] these other ones because sounds like [7:10] you're getting a lot of experience which [7:11] is great so setting these up has there [7:12] been any roadblocks that you've run into [7:15] as far as setting these up with language [7:18] has it has it extended any of these has [7:20] it extended the sales cycle at all you [7:22] think no no there's one I have right now [7:24] that I would say is is extended to maybe [7:26] even lost the sales cycle is um [7:29] they they were trying to find they [7:31] wanted to do a start with a one group of [7:32] people and move on and they I and they [7:34] were having a hard time finding enough [7:35] English speakers uh at least that's the [7:37] impression I'm under uh in the region [7:40] they wanted to kick it off in okay but [7:42] the initial decision making all that [7:46] process English yeah okay okay um so [7:50] once you get into these trainings right [7:51] so we've got established there's really [7:53] not much obstacle as far as the initial [7:55] communication everybody great say Okay [7:59] so [8:00] once these trainings are happening [8:03] um are you running into any obstacles as [8:06] far as once the trainings have started [8:09] talking to people I know you've [8:10] mentioned a little bit around you're [8:12] talking to a trainer or a translator [8:14] translator then sends it to them [8:17] um is that the M are there any other [8:19] obstacles that you're running into when [8:21] you're doing these trainings I know you [8:23] probably have some some material that [8:25] you hand out to people people are trying [8:27] to ask questions interact with you are [8:30] you running into the obstacles at that [8:32] point that you know of I mean obstacles [8:35] is a tough word um okay I do know that [8:38] when I do International training and and [8:41] there [8:42] are I would say 70% of the time so far [8:45] it's not just a single language so so [8:48] yes there have been times like I've did [8:49] training in in Spain in Madrid and they [8:51] all spoke Spanish and um I've done to [8:53] Brazil and they all spoke Portuguese you [8:55] know what I'm saying so there are times [8:56] that we all speaking one language [8:59] anguage but the majority of the time [9:00] it's a it's a international company and [9:02] they're bringing multiple people around [9:05] so yeah um so say it's an obstacle yeah [9:08] to a certain degree I have to talk [9:10] slower yeah um particularly in Asia [9:13] they're more polite and so they're less [9:14] inclined to say something I have a good [9:16] relationship with my my bias so he says [9:18] hey Jim or Keenan slow [9:21] down right and I'm like okay but [9:23] sometimes they may not tell me so I find [9:25] myself saying okay wait um wait wait [9:28] wait did everybody hear me did everybody [9:30] get that I also have a tendency at times [9:33] but not always to use much larger words [9:36] in English that sometimes even English [9:37] people don't understand right so I wait [9:41] you know pedantic any like let me give [9:43] you a different word because I'm like [9:44] I'm talking to some English is seg [9:45] language out of tie I'm pretty sure they [9:46] didn't know pedantic so I got to stop [9:48] yeah clarify you know what I'm saying [9:50] and come back so um but normally we get [9:53] through it so it's it's an inconvenience [9:55] but it doesn't affect the scores it [9:58] doesn't I have no evidence effects the [10:00] training I'm sure it does to a certain [10:01] degree but what extent can tell you so [10:04] I'm going to focus on what's something [10:05] that you said there you said you get [10:07] through it yeah that that sounds good [10:10] but that doesn't sound great right so [10:12] sounds like there's a little bit of a [10:13] struggle kind of from just basing on the [10:15] language that you use do you think based [10:17] on kind of that comment there is there [10:19] are people that are maybe either [10:22] misinterpreting or they're not as [10:24] engaged because they feel less confident [10:26] in the ability to communicate in their [10:27] own language okay so possibly but here's [10:30] the funny part you did a really good job [10:32] of listening to the piece you wanted to [10:34] hear everybody pay attention I don't [10:36] know how many of you picked up on this [10:37] you did a great job of listening to a [10:39] subtle piece that you wanted to hear and [10:42] you missed the piece that you don't want [10:44] to hear so you oh you struggle through [10:46] it well I told you at the end of my [10:48] discussion that it's not easy but I've [10:50] had no indication that it affects the [10:52] training I've had no indication that [10:54] affects people's ability to absorb it so [10:57] when you talk about this idea of of [10:59] struggling through it and its impacts [11:01] that's how you would measure those [11:02] impacts and you literally asked me that [11:04] question after I'd already given you the [11:05] answer yeah so you got to pay attention [11:08] right like you you paid attention to [11:09] what you wanted to hear and I already [11:11] told you now it may have and I can guess [11:14] but I've had no feedback from anybody [11:17] that it it affected the training yeah [11:21] okay okay [11:25] um so another thing that I heard you [11:27] said you were talking about the one the [11:29] other markets that you were looking at [11:30] you're getting in they were struggling [11:31] you may have lost because they were [11:32] trying to get enough people in is that [11:35] based on a language barrier there or is [11:37] that just based on their participation [11:40] level I think it's both but I did tell [11:42] you see you're not a good listener I did [11:43] say in that answer too I said they they [11:46] were having a hard time finding enough [11:47] English speakers I literally said that I [11:49] literally said so you got to listen my [11:52] man right right I also have reason to [11:55] believe it's it's there's I guess [11:56] there's some RS going on like some [11:58] things have started to to to get funky [12:01] so um but yes there were one segment of [12:04] it is they're having a hard time trying [12:05] to find enough English speakers okay [12:08] okay [12:11] um so looking at these so you kind of [12:15] hearing about what you're s you're [12:16] diving into these different markets [12:17] right so you from what you're telling me [12:20] right now these different markets you're [12:21] able to communicate effectively in [12:24] English with everybody the people that [12:26] come to us yeah yeah okay so the on that [12:30] note do you do you [12:33] think there are people who are not [12:35] coming to you who might want to because [12:37] of the what the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] do you think I mean [12:40] process that of course yeah of course [12:43] right exactly and you want I'm guessing [12:45] you would want to have those people come [12:48] to you who aren't right who doesn't want [12:50] growth oh my God you did not just say [12:52] who doesn't want that was the cheesiest [12:54] lie in the world Stop Being Cheesy [12:57] salesperson just stop have a [12:59] conversation with me so the question I [13:02] would have asked there rather than [13:03] saying do you think Kenan would be um is [13:07] it fair to say that your inability to [13:11] expand into non-speaking markets is [13:13] simply the fact that you don't speak [13:14] other [13:15] languages okay makes much more sense [13:18] yeah and I'm like of it's yeah of course [13:21] right so let me ask this question you [13:23] gotta be real careful where you go here [13:24] right now okay can you actually help me [13:28] in company deliver our in-person or [13:32] online training in another language [13:38] seamlessly potentially I would need I [13:40] need to find a little bit more about how [13:42] you're delivering that training how okay [13:45] what do you need to know because to me [13:47] it's pretty simple and everybody pay [13:48] attention again I love when I say to [13:49] everybody to me and this is gonna be a [13:51] really interesting learning experience [13:53] for me or for you to me training is [13:55] pretty [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] simple someone is up in [13:57] front of people and they're talking to [13:58] they have career curriculums is written [13:59] tools Etc but you're talking to somebody [14:02] whether it's here like this or it's in [14:05] person okay so I am struggling to see [14:08] how you're going to be able to make me [14:11] speak English right I mean sorry speak [14:14] Russian speak Japanese speak Spanish now [14:16] if you have a way that's gonna do that [14:19] and make bilateral communication I am [14:21] all [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] ears but if you're going to [14:23] try to pitch me on some corny hack [14:25] rework then we're GNA have an issue so [14:28] ask the question again do you think that [14:31] you can help me or anybody on my team [14:33] because I I am have some people by [14:36] lingual right speak Italian and Spanish [14:38] and Etc me and my entire team deliver [14:42] these trainings in other [14:45] languages so in that live conversation [14:48] no okay all right however however yep go [14:52] go however as far as followup and [14:56] support is concerned how much are of how [14:59] much followup and support is there after [15:01] that initial training your conversations [15:03] are is there a lot of emails that s [15:06] after the initial trainings no once the [15:09] initial training is done we have again [15:10] we have more live [15:12] interaction and more live [15:14] interaction um and the um uh any of the [15:20] follow-up stuff that's done in their [15:21] native language is going to be done by [15:23] their manager or managers or themselves [15:26] talking amongst each other right so they [15:27] all heard it in English they start [15:29] talking to each other in Spanish or [15:30] Portuguese or Japanese right so so the [15:33] answer is uh no there's not a lot of [15:38] nonverbal followup via okay yes is there [15:43] is there any that's needed or pretty [15:45] much that's not if I get this far in [15:47] English right I mean would they like [15:49] would they like the thing in our [15:51] curriculum in their native language it [15:53] probably be a good it's kind of a nice [15:55] to have I guess right yeah but I I I [15:57] still have to see it in English or my [15:58] other people have to see it in English [16:00] right so [16:02] um you know kind of be nice to have okay [16:06] I mean that that's quite honestly that's [16:08] where that that's where they what we [16:10] could work with there would be that that [16:11] post followup we don't currently have a [16:13] live speak like enabling you to do real [16:16] time talking it's going to go back and [16:17] forth in that persective so everybody [16:21] listening here I I'm curious how many [16:23] people put in the comments if you [16:24] realize that Matthew has missed a pretty [16:27] powerful [16:29] opportunity in my opinion so we actually [16:31] may be able to look at he's going to get [16:32] watch his eyes light up in a minute we [16:34] may actually be able to use Matthew we [16:36] may actually be able to buy what he has [16:38] see look at he's o ooo but not because [16:40] Matthew did a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] thing literally [16:42] Matthew didn't do a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] thing and [16:44] here's what drives me crazy about [16:46] salespeople Matthew came on this call by [16:48] the way full props are coming on I have [16:49] love for y'all who do it but he came on [16:51] with the mind of trying to sell [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] not [16:53] with an understanding of my business he [16:55] should have known and Matt I'm going to [16:57] give you an out how how many train [17:00] trainings have you seen in the world [17:02] that don't include some live interaction [17:06] with people there's only one exception [17:09] how often oh probably none none so then [17:13] you never should have come at me from [17:15] the training perspective because if I [17:17] could get through the sales cycle [17:19] speaking just English these people [17:20] aren't idiots they're not going to bring [17:22] in people you know what I'm saying so [17:23] the only one we would have had to [17:24] address was China but even then I had to [17:26] have interpreter right so but this is [17:29] where you missed it man there's another [17:31] part of my business what part of my [17:33] business is [17:36] that the publishing part nope well okay [17:40] yeah yep I go the publishing part yep [17:42] but there's another one coaching nope [17:46] than so there's only one other place [17:50] where training is actually not oneon-one [17:54] what oh I'm sorry isn't um live [17:58] interaction what is it what type of [18:01] training uh not sure what where you [18:04] going with that what other type of [18:05] training do people deliver where you're [18:06] not live oneon-one [18:10] um Vanessa got it John Bisset got it [18:14] George barasa got it people watching got [18:17] it they're paying [18:19] attention I gotta say I don't know [18:21] online training dog online okay [18:25] oh online training so I don't know if [18:28] you can fix this but online training is [18:30] recorded and it's done right yeah so all [18:33] of our materials that we have to create [18:35] are online we've actually created a [18:36] German version so anybody who's German [18:38] you can go watch the German version [18:39] right but that's because we have a [18:41] German book oh because a client asked us [18:43] to do it right [18:44] so look at this yeah look for all you [18:46] German speakers right I don't even know [18:48] you can see it right so anyways so I [18:51] don't know is there something you can do [18:53] for online [18:54] training potentially yeah we have so [18:57] we're able to do articles so if you have [18:59] new if you're coming out with new say [19:03] material and you want that translated [19:04] into different languages if it's [19:05] handouts questioners that sort of stuff [19:07] we do have a way that you can submit [19:09] that material into us and have that all [19:11] that translated into the different [19:12] languages all right so so okay think all [19:16] right now everybody this I'm coaching [19:18] everybody on this one because Matthew is [19:19] is just he's too sales too product [19:22] Centric he's not [19:23] thinking all right so right now what [19:25] you're not able to do is you're not able [19:27] to be a trusted advisor to me I'm [19:29] literally running the sale I'm thinking [19:31] about what I need I'm thinking about how [19:33] I would do it and and that may get you [19:35] the sale but in other situations where [19:37] the buyer is not smart enough to think [19:39] about this themselves and you're not [19:40] smart enough to think about it for them [19:41] you're missing opportunities okay so I'm [19:44] gonna help you out first so you can get [19:46] there if not I'm gonna tell you what I [19:47] think I need right and then it's all [19:48] going to come down to cost and time and [19:50] Etc but we have an online training [19:52] platform okay yeah so and actually [19:55] everybody listening we're actually [19:56] opening up for a whole new gut Plus more [19:58] content more content more content if I [20:00] can make that content available and [20:02] accessible to [20:04] everybody so therefore you or your [20:07] company can come on here I'm not gonna [20:09] say so what's one way that I that I [20:10] could make that content more uh [20:13] accessible to everybody what can you do [20:14] in that what would what do you think I [20:15] would need that's the question what [20:17] would I need to make that more [20:18] accessible to [20:20] everybody well D that as far as what [20:23] would have to be available in their [20:24] languages and they would have to be able [20:25] what does that mean yes available in [20:27] their language so what would that mean [20:29] they would have to be able to log on get [20:31] find that material in their own language [20:32] and just and download it or access that [20:35] material okay but how would we okay but [20:37] oh my God okay great but how what would [20:39] that look like in the online training [20:42] program what would that look [20:50] like okay so so take a [20:54] yeah no I'm I'm just trying to think you [20:56] know I'm trying to think it would look [20:59] like I mean I I guess can you clarify a [21:02] little bit when you're saying what does [21:04] it look like you're talking about look [21:05] like what is the user experience come on [21:07] man this is this is important if you're [21:09] going to be a trusted advisor you have [21:10] to understand the world you're playing [21:13] right you can't have a buyer explain it [21:15] to you so if you're a user and you want [21:17] to go into this and the buyer's creating [21:19] this right there's only two ways you can [21:21] make it beneficial for if for multiple [21:24] languages what is one way if I want to [21:26] create something for multiple languages [21:27] what do I have to do [21:29] you have have it you have to have it [21:31] trained in accessible in that language [21:33] you have to be able to log on and see it [21:35] in your native langage okay see what see [21:37] what if it's a video see what see the [21:40] translation okay so if I have I have I [21:43] want to do an eight languages there's [21:44] only one of two ways to do it eight [21:46] languages what are [21:48] they uh translate it into all eight [21:51] languages and how would you and what's [21:52] the it this is the Keb what's the it so [21:56] if it's a video it's translating the [21:57] audio [21:58] or you can have [22:00] that keep going keep going or you can [22:03] then have a transcript that is [22:05] accessible to that audio and they can [22:06] follow along with a with a translated [22:09] transcript of that material okay I [22:11] transcript is [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] but how about [22:12] close caption right I mean right come on [22:15] transcript [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] off like the menu told [22:17] me transcript I'm like really someone's [22:18] going to download it and read it while [22:20] they're watching you come on man this is [22:23] what I'm talking about transcript tells [22:25] me you don't understand learning tells [22:27] me to understand the user interface so [22:28] you understand experience so the only [22:30] way to do multiple languages is to [22:33] either record it in eight different [22:35] languages right yeah or translate it [22:38] like you said in eight different [22:40] languages and have a voice over or close [22:42] captions right correct now you're [22:44] getting there but why did it take me so [22:46] long for you to get there you should [22:49] have come in right away and been like [22:51] Kenan I I went to your online site I saw [22:54] you only have two languages I see you [22:56] promote this all the time have you ever [22:58] had requests for other languages yes BR [23:00] said we get requests for Spanish all the [23:01] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] time right then you could have [23:04] asked how much we're we're driving in [23:05] Revenue in this thing where are we [23:06] trying to take it what do you think [23:08] would happen if we could add all these [23:09] other people I don't even know what our [23:10] German our German downloads I need to [23:12] ask that how many people watch it in [23:13] German but anyways so that's where you [23:15] should have went like literally that's [23:17] where you should have went okay right [23:20] that like that's a potential area for [23:24] us right so how long does it take you [23:27] like talk to me about the process of [23:30] translating do you guys have something [23:32] that makes it easier or you guys just a [23:34] bunch of manual processes and it takes [23:36] just as long as anybody else so I mean [23:39] but just to clarify we don't we don't do [23:41] close caption or audio [23:44] duing well then what do you do so I mean [23:49] the majority of it is it's through [23:51] communication like Britain communication [23:54] currently so you can't help me then no [23:57] no not with the close captioning of the [23:59] audio dubbing [24:00] no that's I mean that's why you you [24:03] don't have somebody oh oh because you're [24:05] you're um your I can't talk you're um AI [24:09] so you can't take my audio and turn that [24:12] into a translation not currently no ah [24:16] we don't do audio it's all through [24:18] verbal it's all through verbal community [24:20] so we're looking at live chat chat Bots [24:23] emails that sort of line of [24:25] communication Focus primarily on [24:28] customer support is the huge thing that [24:30] we do with a lot of that though those [24:32] are the Avenues that we are currently [24:33] supporting all that ah so I'm not then I [24:35] wasn't even a good [24:38] ICP I I knew I was quite honestly I knew [24:41] I was pushing it but I wanted to get on [24:44] with you throw myself into the fire a [24:45] little bit and maybe see if I could [24:47] uncover something and quite frankly to [24:50] be honest my Hope was that when I asked [24:52] you about the Singapore use case your [24:55] sales cycle was super long because of [24:58] emails or whatever back and forth and I [25:00] could go down that Avenue to be [25:02] perfectly 100% transparent then I was [25:05] like boom I can help you with that we [25:06] can you can get to the right decision [25:09] makers because you can communicate with [25:10] them in their own language so that was [25:13] my Gap that was the problem that I was [25:17] hoping to uncover so I knew I knew I was [25:20] pushing it but I wanted to take a chance [25:22] anyway okay how about this um do you [25:25] integrate with zoom uh we can if it's in [25:30] the text we have an API that pretty much [25:32] can be developed any way that people [25:33] need to be developed okay so that means [25:35] that means you haven't yet so you kind [25:38] of got my attention where in the future [25:40] if I am doing a multilanguage class the [25:44] ability for them to where they're having [25:46] a hard time but the ability for the mem [25:47] to ask questions in their own language [25:49] via the chat yeah that would that'd be [25:52] an [25:53] interesting and that's in and you're [25:55] talking via Zoom so this is what you're [25:57] in a zo yeah I can I can kind of talk to [26:00] our development team and see where we [26:01] are with that like I said if you have [26:02] the resources probably done in your end [26:05] but I know that you don't necessarily [26:06] have the development [26:08] resour yeah so I can ask about where we [26:10] are with zoom I know that there's you [26:12] know there's a bunch of stuff we have in [26:13] the pipeline but I can kind of go back [26:15] to them and see where we are in terms of [26:17] the text but there's other things like I [26:19] said in other chat channels that we have [26:22] it works just like that it's it's [26:23] instantaneous it's back and forth so as [26:26] somebody talks what's nice is [26:28] they'll type in a chat say we're in a [26:29] Salesforce chat they'll type you'll get [26:32] it in English you don't have to know or [26:34] worry about what language you're [26:35] speaking yeah you just type back in [26:37] English it bups back back them and say [26:40] German boom there you go and you guys go [26:43] back that's intriguing now you're [26:45] selling all the pretty features and I [26:46] don't give a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] because you don't do [26:47] it Zoom uh oh [26:50] okay uh so uh Brady sent me something on [26:54] on on what we're talking about let me [26:57] see what she said hold on she said uh I [26:59] copied key learning some and paste them [27:01] in the chat with GE Asia and they use [27:04] translators from there so they were [27:05] doing it on their end so the point being [27:08] here is you can't help me you can tell [27:10] me all the cool features it does and I [27:12] love that you're passionate about it and [27:13] you're excited about it but uh I I don't [27:17] have I have no use for it because here's [27:19] you gotta think about this yeah 90% of [27:22] the time when someone reaches out to us [27:23] from another country the people reaching [27:25] out speak are the best English speakers [27:27] like they're the top and everybody else [27:29] falls down it's not inverse so if I'm [27:31] talking to someone and they're not that [27:33] good at English and I and they're trying [27:35] to get us in then we're not doing it [27:37] because we just understand the training [27:38] isn't gonna work does that make any [27:40] sense now yeah to the extent it's a nice [27:44] to have and I and some people wrote [27:46] about this you guys seem to be behind [27:47] the eightball no you're not you guys are [27:50] playing in one small ICP area basically [27:52] around customer services and stuff good [27:55] for you great but if they want to expand [27:57] this they want to get into Learning and [27:59] Development which is a different ICP and [28:00] a different business case they got a lot [28:02] to do but working in Zoom is one that I [28:05] don't know why isn't on the again I [28:07] don't know because it could be a lot of [28:08] good reasons but in my world would be a [28:10] massive one right for you to drop into [28:13] zooms you got that chat right there and [28:14] people can just ask questions back and [28:16] forth in a natural language to help [28:18] augment the confusion yeah and I think [28:22] like I said for for companies that have [28:23] maybe those development resources they [28:25] can take our API and develop it out and [28:28] buil it out how they need to function [28:30] within Zoom do you charge for that API [28:33] yes it's what the API itself is that we [28:36] charge per word translated so there is a [28:39] cost of that they don't just get to use [28:40] our solution for all right so all right [28:43] well yeah I don't have the resources or [28:45] the time and the problem isn't big [28:46] enough for me to [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] build an API so [28:48] I can do that so so I'm gonna go I am [28:51] going to follow though I'm going to go [28:52] back and see where where Zoom is and our [28:55] um Pipeline and I'll let you know where [28:56] that is if it's something that's [28:57] immediate or not all right all right all [29:00] right man well look I'm sorry I give you [29:02] credit for coming on once again I give [29:05] people credit for coming on because you [29:07] came on you get a [29:09] free uh c not cop you get free access to [29:13] gaps online training have you taken it [29:15] yet I have not yet all right well now [29:17] you get to take it so now you get it um [29:20] hit me up DM me and on LinkedIn and I'll [29:23] send you to Brady and she'll get you all [29:24] set up and get you all the information [29:26] you need so enjoy that thank you for [29:28] coming um sorry I'm not buying hey [29:31] that's I knew it was a live chat but [29:33] quite honestly I just wanted to throw it [29:34] in I learned a lot it's one of my [29:36] biggest things to take away so all right [29:38] man good job good job good job thank you [29:41] very much all right [29:44] everybody [29:45] um there you have it my man Matthew [29:48] defor gave it his best [29:50] bet he didn't find a problem I had look [29:53] I give him credit he came out he wanted [29:54] to learn something he tried so I give [29:56] him Mad Prop for that but the truth of [29:58] the matter was I don't think he really [29:59] took the time to understand who his true [30:02] ICP was and to understand that what he [30:06] offers the chance of me having that type [30:08] of problem was pretty low right so [30:10] that's the key piece when you reach out [30:12] to people everybody understand why do I [30:14] believe this company these people this [30:17] government agency or whatever why do I [30:19] believe they're gonna have the problems [30:20] that I solv and more importantly why do [30:22] I believe that those problems will be [30:24] bigger for them than most people that's [30:26] how you want to attack that's how you [30:28] build icps what is the probability that [30:31] they have that problem and what is the [30:35] probability that that problem is [30:38] huge then you're heading in the right [30:40] direction so all right y'all you can [30:43] watch thank you for watching you can get [30:45] this on YouTube so go to YouTube and you [30:47] can watch all 64 episodes if you want to [30:51] come on to Gap s keen and you have a [30:53] product or service you think my company [30:55] or I need DM me onink l in and we will [30:58] get you on the show but if you don't get [31:01] it right you know what going to happen [31:04] rest of Y hope you enjoyed this you know [31:05] I'm gon you know what I'm gonna say till [31:07] next time peace I'm out all I here go [31:11] get the money so I get it K hate means I [31:14] do something

===FILE=== 7UjW9vCDLUg - Keenan Gap Selling -  Make It Happen Mondays.txt
https://youtu.be/7UjW9vCDLUg
Keenan Gap Selling -  Make It Happen Mondays

[0:00] Good afternoon everybody. This is John [0:02] Barrows with Make It Happen Monday. [0:03] Hopefully you all had a fantastic [0:05] weekend. I did. My Bruins are still [0:07] hanging in there so I got a chance. [0:09] Right. That's right. That's right. [0:10] Boston kids. [0:11] Go be. So there's so many different [0:14] reasons I'm excited for this for this [0:16] podcast specifically. My my boy Keenan. [0:18] So not only background synergies, all [0:21] that stuff, but he's also a Boston kid [0:23] through and through. Even though he's [0:24] living out in Colorado and living that [0:25] dream, he's a Boston kid and through. [0:27] So, Aan, you want to introduce everybody [0:29] everybody to yourself and give a little [0:30] background where you're coming from [0:31] these days? [0:32] Oh god, I suck at the background and who [0:34] I am [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] But yeah, living in Colorado, [0:36] chief antagonist of of a sales guy, a [0:39] sales consulting firm, author of this [0:41] dope book, Gap Selling. [0:44] Yes. Fullon Boston boy. Lived there till [0:46] I was 21. Went through all the pain of [0:48] Bucky Dent, Bill Buckner, Boon. I What [0:51] is it with the names? The bees, right? [0:53] who Buckner uh in and uh shoot I just [0:56] said [0:58] I'm sorry [0:58] Bucky Bucky [0:59] Bucky. Yeah, Bucky Dent. I mean it was [1:01] Yeah, but yes, spent my Saturday or [1:03] whatever it was or yesterday watching [1:04] the Bruins. Sweet that almost give it [1:06] away. Love my Pats. Don't be a hater. [1:08] Just embrace it. [1:10] Yeah, I'm ready, baby. [1:11] But you know what I keep telling and I [1:12] digress a little bit here, but I keep [1:14] telling everybody like the Bruins are [1:15] the highest seed in the playoffs right [1:17] now, right? So, they have a clear path. [1:19] The seats have a real outside chance, [1:21] but there is an outside chance. [1:23] Yes. Yes. [laughter] [1:26] We have a championship in every Right. [1:28] Yes. YES. WE'LL HAVE THE CHAMPIONSHIP [1:30] SLAM. [1:31] I tell I told everybody Boston fans are [1:33] going to be insufferable if that [1:34] happens. It's like just don't even talk [1:36] to us because we're gonna be so [1:37] obnoxious. It's not even gonna matter. [1:38] [laughter] So, anyways, but let's take [1:41] some of that energy and let's dive into [1:43] some sales now, man. Because I you and I [1:45] share a very similar approach. I mean, [1:47] you said your chief antagonist, right? I [1:49] think a lot of um what's out there right [1:52] now needs to be challenged, right? Not [1:54] incl not just like the whole sales [1:56] tactics and techniques and everything [1:57] else that people have been spewing, but [1:58] also the customer, right? Like calling [2:00] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] on the customer a lot of times. [2:02] And and and I want to get into gap [2:05] selling because this is one of my [2:06] favorite new books. It's it's the one I [2:07] tell everybody to go get if they're [2:09] going to for like try to get some new [2:11] intel on what's going on out there [2:13] because look, Challenger Sale was that [2:15] was kind of the book of the month. like [2:16] I don't know whatever three, four, five [2:17] years ago. Uh they came out with [2:19] Challenger Customer which I thought was [2:21] actually a pretty good read. It was [2:22] actually even better than Challenger [2:23] Sale in my opinion. Um but there's [2:25] really been a no pun intended here gap [2:28] in in what I find a lot which is the [2:31] biggest challenge that a lot of people [2:32] have is creating urgency and getting [2:34] people to move and and beating up on no [2:37] decision right because that's our number [2:38] one competitor competitor everybody's [2:40] number one competitor. So talk to me a [2:42] little bit about first of all what was [2:43] the impetus for gaps selling? Like why [2:45] did you all of a sudden decide to write [2:46] this book? [2:47] Oh boy. Um [2:50] what were you seeing? [2:51] If I want to be honest and selfish about [2:53] it, it was look I needed a way to scale [2:56] the business. And people have been [2:57] asking me for years, are you gonna write [2:58] a book? You know, you are you do you do [3:00] sales training? Because look, a sales [3:02] guy has been around since 2011, right? [3:04] So we're almost 10 years old. But it was [3:06] all consulting. And you know, consulting [3:08] only gets so far. I mean, it's me. I go [3:10] out monthly, whatever, blah blah blah, [3:11] and it wasn't scalable. And like, you [3:13] got to write, you got to come up with [3:14] training. Well, I was not going to [3:15] create a training that was like [3:17] everybody else's. Just wasn't going to [3:19] do it. And I certainly wasn't going to [3:21] go um, you know, go to some of these [3:24] older [3:26] sales training companies that let you [3:27] branch. That was not going to happen, [3:30] right? I might as well go back and work [3:31] for somebody else. So, I just I just [3:34] I just paid attention to what I was [3:35] doing. I paid attention to what my [3:37] customers doing. A lot of it came out of [3:39] the consulting. I paid attention to [3:40] where I was consulting them on, how we [3:41] were doing it, how we were structuring [3:43] it. And then I sat down one day and just [3:45] took a whole look at everything I had [3:48] put together AND I SAID, "OH, THERE IT [3:50] IS." LIKE I HAD TO STEP BACK. You know [3:52] what I'm saying? And and I let people in [3:54] on a little secret. Many of the major [3:56] elements came from when I was sitting at [3:59] a client and someone asked a question [4:01] and I was like, "All right, look, let me [4:02] explain it this way." And I would give [4:04] an anecdote and I'd put it on the board [4:05] AND I'D SIT BACK. OH, [screaming] THAT [4:07] THAT AND I WOULD TAKE A PICTURE AND I'D [4:09] TAKE IT HOME AND I'D PUT IT IN THE [4:10] DRAWER, RIGHT? BECAUSE I I COULDN'T COME [4:12] UP WITH IT ON my own, per se. I couldn't [4:14] I COULDN'T CHALLENGE MYSELF, IF YOU [4:16] WILL, RIGHT, to come up with it. I knew [4:18] it was there, but I couldn't get it out. [4:19] But every time that happened, then [4:21] eventually I went back and looked at [4:23] eight years of blogging, all of those [4:24] pictures I took, all of the [4:26] conversations I had, and I was like, [4:27] "Ah, there it is. It's the gap. I must [4:30] and I kept finding myself talking more [4:32] and more about the gap." And so then [4:33] that's where I just I wrote the book. [4:34] And then I realized people needed it. [4:36] That was the non-selfish impetus. It was [4:38] desperately needed. I watched [4:40] salesperson after salesperson after [4:41] salesperson lose deals because THEY WERE [4:45] CAUSING THE VERY PROBLEMS, JOHN, THAT [4:48] YOU TALKED ABOUT, LOSING ON PRICE, [4:51] LOSING TO NO DECISION, not being ABLE TO [4:53] OVERCOME LACK OF FEATURE OBJECTIONS. ALL [4:56] OF THOSE PROBLEMS WERE CAUSED BY THEIR [4:58] SHITTY SELLING ON THE FRONT END. [5:00] YEAH. That discovery, right? that [5:02] discovery and and that that I mean most [5:05] of the sales lives and dies right with [5:07] that discovery. So talk to us about what [5:09] is the gap like what's what define the [5:11] gap for us. So the gap is basically the [5:13] space between the current state and the [5:15] future state. Right? So the what I think [5:17] is more important people to understand [5:19] is that when I realized how traditional [5:25] training was going and I know you're a [5:26] trainer so I you know I love you so [5:27] don't [5:28] shred it man. Shre it. Yeah. Yeah. [5:29] Right. Is traditional selling is either [5:31] very tactical or they get to some good [5:34] stuff but they don't it doesn't align [5:36] with how people buy. And so I started [5:39] thinking about okay how do people buy? [5:41] And then it hit me. People buy when they [5:43] have to make a decision. Well, what are [5:44] they making a decision on? They're [5:45] making a decision to change. [5:48] That is at the core of every single [5:49] sale. I'm making a decision to change. [5:51] Well, if I'm making a decision to [5:53] change, HOW DO PEOPLE PROCESS CHANGE? [5:55] Whether it's you, you and I were talking [5:56] about this idea of of your trip coming [5:58] up to Africa. We were talking about my [6:00] trip to Galapagos. You talk about, you [6:02] know, I need to buy a piece of gum. I [6:04] need NEW PENS. NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, we [6:06] go through either a conscious or [6:08] subconscious decision process that [6:10] starts with where am I right now. Like [6:13] that's that's what we do. IT'S IT'S [6:14] UNCOMFORTABLE. I DON'T LIKE IT. IT [6:16] DOESN'T FEEL GOOD. I CAN'T get where I [6:17] want. I'm not seeing the results. LIKE [6:19] WE START WITH THIS INVENTORY of where we [6:21] are right now. [6:22] And then what we do is WE KIND OF PUT [6:24] OUR HEAD UP JUST A LITTLE BIT. WE LOOK [6:25] INTO the horizon and we're like, "Oh, [6:27] that could be a little BETTER IF I COULD [6:29] JUST IF MAYBE." AND WE START envisioning [6:31] or looking out into the future. [6:34] And so the minute WE DO THAT, WE'RE [6:36] basically establishing where we are [6:38] today and comparing it to where we could [6:39] be tomorrow. And the space in between [6:41] THE TWO IS THE GAP. SO THAT'S THE WAY WE [6:44] DECIDE THINGS. [6:46] WHY THE [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] ARE WE NOT SELLING exactly [6:48] that way? [6:49] Okay, I like it. So, so let's talk about [6:52] I've recognized that current state, [6:54] right, uh is not acceptable. So I need [6:57] to make a switch. Uh but then there's [6:59] the people that don't recognize it, [7:00] right? So the inbound leads versus the [7:02] outbound leads effectively, right? The [7:03] inbound leads, and I think that's one [7:05] where, you know, 53% of the buying [7:07] process is already done, whatever. Um [7:09] corporate executive board, however you [7:10] want to take that stat, I get it. Uh [7:12] let's talk a little bit about the [7:14] outbound stuff. Is how can gap selling [7:16] be applied to getting me to realize [7:18] somebody who doesn't necessarily know I [7:20] have a problem, knows that everything's [7:21] not great, and knows that things could [7:23] be better with whatever my scenario is. [7:25] How are you how are you articulating [7:27] that message to somebody who hasn't [7:28] identified that gap yet? Or are you? [7:30] Brilliant. Brilliant. And and the first [7:32] thing I would say to you is and I say to [7:33] sales people all the time and it's [7:35] amazing. It's the hardest thing to get [7:36] sales people to do is change their [7:38] mindset. [7:38] Y [7:39] I don't I do not subscribe to messages [7:42] for sales people. I subscribe to [7:44] questioning. So, your ability to build a [7:46] a a powerful set of what I call [7:49] credibility questions that allow you to [7:51] engage someone who picks up the phone [7:53] and to determine if they have a problem [7:55] and get them to talk about that problem. [7:57] And you know what's funny? You know who [7:58] does a really good job of this from a [8:00] marketing perspective? Then you've heard [8:02] me talk about this is the um the [8:04] infomercial world. [8:05] Yeah. Yeah. YEAH. [8:06] RIGHT. THAT'S ALL OUTBOUND, RIGHT? And [8:09] what they do is they they they did a lot [8:12] of research and they came back AND SAID, [8:13] "OUR LITTLE PRODUCT, our our Tupperware [8:16] THAT STACKS INTO THE SIZE OF A DIME, BUT [8:18] CAN hold 2,000 things." [laughter] [8:19] Right. [8:21] RIGHT. PEOPLE, THE PROBLEMS PEOPLE HAVE [8:24] ARE these it the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] burns in the [8:26] microwave when you cook the spaghetti. [8:27] Right. You know what I'm talking about, [8:29] right? [laughter] [8:30] AND IT STAYS IN, RIGHT? YEAH. LOOK, YOU [8:32] KNOW, RIGHT? OR THEY OPEN UP THAT THAT [8:34] that Tupperware or that container drawer [8:36] and it just spills out all over you and [8:38] you can't find anything or you can't [8:40] they know the three or four problems and [8:42] what do they do? You're sitting home [8:43] watching CS [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] eye and you're [8:46] paying no mind not thinking about your [8:47] Tuppware and it comes on and it punches [8:49] you in the face with a black and white [8:51] screen, sour music and a woman opening a [8:54] cabinet AND FALLING ON HER HEAD. [8:56] YEAH. YEP. [8:57] AND YOU'RE LIKE, "HEY, I HATE THAT." [8:59] YEP. [9:00] They got you. or they take it and they [9:02] show you your your t with the burn [9:04] spaghetti on the side and you and YOU [9:07] HATE YOU HATE THAT. [9:08] Y [9:09] now they made you realize yes that is a [9:11] problem and you're paying attention. [9:13] Same thing with sales people. [9:14] See I love that because what I I don't [9:16] know if you've been paying attention to [9:17] the gong blog but the gong blog is [9:19] throwing out some data that I can't [9:20] ignore, right? And one of the things [9:21] they talk about is how using stories and [9:24] that stuff obviously duh but the problem [9:26] is is that too many people and this [9:28] relates to gap too many people focus on [9:31] the outcome. Too many people focus on [9:33] the pretty picture about where things [9:35] like how it could be before they get the [9:37] person to relate to the scenario. Right. [9:39] So you hit it with the with the [9:41] infomercials like I have to feel that [9:43] first. I have to be like that's me. And [9:44] I did a I did a podcast that's actually [9:46] coming out today with Chris Voss the guy [9:48] who never split the difference. [9:49] Yep. Um, this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] is fire, man. And one [9:52] of the things, a little nuance that he [9:53] gets people to [9:55] talk about when he goes through [9:57] negotiations is you want to get the [9:59] person to say that's right, not you're [10:02] right. Yeah. [10:03] So, for instance, right, because if you [10:04] say you're right, that's that's a [10:06] defense mechanism. That's me telling you [10:08] what you want to hear to be like, "Yeah, [10:09] yeah, yeah, Kenan, you know what? You're [10:10] right. You're right. You know, I I'm [10:12] stupid. I should I should invest in [10:14] sales training." That's actually a bad [10:15] sign when somebody says you're right. [10:17] But when somebody's like knocking and [10:19] you know when you articulate the [10:20] scenario to me put it back at me and I'm [10:23] like yeah you know what man that's right [10:24] that's where you got them right. So you [10:26] get that through questions and we do the [10:28] same thing. We do persona driven [10:29] questions like based on that persona as [10:32] nuanced as you can get with that [10:34] question to make sure that you like [10:35] because that's how you show credibility, [10:37] right? And I think you talk about this a [10:38] lot when you you you give like an [10:40] example of your snowboarding, right? [10:42] Like if you ask somebody like walk me [10:44] through that quick scenario like that [10:45] shows your credibility with snowboarding [10:47] again. Yeah, it was skiing and and and [10:51] if I asked the average person who skis [10:54] every weekend or goes on three or four [10:55] ski trips and they can ski down a black, [10:57] if I ask them if they need ski lessons, [10:59] like I don't need ski lessons. I'm a [11:00] great skier. I can ski blacks. I can [11:01] ski. And then I know they're full of [11:03] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] because all I have to do is say, [11:05] "Let me ask you a question." The minute [11:06] you get off piece, now off piece mean [11:08] it's not groomed. It's usually steeper. [11:10] It's the the terrain and conditions are [11:13] super variable. It could have mogul. It [11:15] could be hardcrossed, etc. Do you find [11:17] yourself slipping into the back seat? [11:20] Right? Or in the mogul, I I say the same [11:23] thing. When you're in the mogul and you [11:24] find that you're going down, do you find [11:25] that you get in the back seat and you [11:27] are unable to keep the skis on the snow? [11:30] And by doing so, YOU FIND YOURSELF GOING [11:32] FASTER AND FASTER DOWN THE HILL TILL YOU [11:33] GET OUT OF CONTROL. NOW, BY ASKING THOSE [11:36] SPECIFIC QUESTIONS, THIS PERSON'S NOW [11:38] ISN'T THINKING, am I a good skier? Do I [11:40] have a skiing a problem skiing? I've got [11:42] them zeroed in on something that I know [11:45] 95% of most skiers STRUGGLE WITH, [11:47] INCLUDING MYSELF. AND I'M A LEVEL TWO [11:49] CERTIFIED SKI INSTRUCTOR. SO, IT'S NOT [11:50] DOES IT HAPPEN, IT'S HOW OFTEN AND TO [11:53] WHAT EXTENT. And the minute I get them [11:55] talking about that, I know I'm winning. [11:56] Yeah. And I think and and that's [11:58] beautiful because I think there's [11:59] there's the I think the the [12:02] inexperienced sales rep or actually a [12:04] lot of sales reps look at it and say, [12:05] "Well, let me let me articulate my my [12:07] expertise by telling you how much I know [12:10] about this industry and how much I know [12:12] about my product and that type of [12:14] stuff." And ultimately, no, that ain't [12:16] going to get you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] right? Because me [12:17] telling you how smart I am, you're [12:19] automatically have a defense mechanism [12:21] where you ain't listening. But if you [12:22] can get people I always say this right [12:24] now I do not believe it is our job in [12:26] sales anymore to teach people about [12:27] features functions and speeds and [12:28] features. [12:29] It is just not Google took that away [12:31] from us. It is our job to get people to [12:33] think. [12:34] Yes. [12:34] If I can get you to think like where [12:36] because like the way I put it is look if [12:38] you are comfortable with where you are [12:40] today I don't care what your job is. I [12:41] don't care what your role is. I don't [12:42] care what your industry is. If you are [12:44] uncomfortable with that I'm sorry if you [12:46] are comfortable with that I'm worried [12:48] for you because there's be an app that [12:49] comes out tomorrow. There's going to be [12:51] a shift in an industry that you're not [12:52] going to be able to predict. And if [12:53] you're not ready for it, you're going to [12:55] be screwed. So my job is to ask you that [12:57] question that gets you to pause for a [12:59] second and say, "Shit, that's a good [13:01] question." And not to say just to to [13:03] plate you, right? Or to but it's to [13:05] legitimately say, "That's a good [13:08] question." And then have me pause for 30 [13:10] seconds to try to figure out my answer [13:11] to it. Right. [13:12] My favorite answer to one of my [13:13] questions is that's good question. Like [13:15] I know I'm winning. [13:16] Yeah. Well, there's there's a nuance to [13:18] that one too for everybody listening. [13:20] Right. There's there's the that's a good [13:21] question and then an immediate answer to [13:23] it which actually isn't that great, [13:25] right? Because I' I've used there's a [13:27] little bit of a defense mechanism in [13:29] there for me to make people feel good, [13:30] right? So as a trainer, right? Stand up [13:32] and somebody asks a question, you go on [13:34] make people ste feel stupid. So you're [13:35] like, "Oh, that's a good question." You [13:36] know, but then I know the answer and I [13:38] roll with it. Whereas that's a good [13:40] question. [13:43] Let me think about that for a minute. [13:44] You know what I mean? Like that's what I [13:45] want. Y [13:46] So I love that on the prospecting side. [13:48] Now let's talk about qualification. [13:49] Okay. And I want you to compare this to [13:51] what and look, let's call it what it is. [13:55] Like, you know, the the the franchise [13:56] model, right? The Sailor model. There's [13:58] a lot about Sailor that's good, right? [14:00] They talk about there's some [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [14:02] stuff, too. But, um, they talk about [14:03] their pain funnel, right? And and really [14:06] getting to that quantifiable pain, [14:08] right? And that's ultimately through [14:09] reverse questioning and those type of [14:11] things. And that's good, but I've always [14:13] kind of been a little bit like roll my [14:15] eyes at [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] So, for instance, if [14:16] you're like, you know what, John? Uh [14:18] what's your main problem? Well, my main [14:20] problem is uh you know I missed our [14:22] quota last quarted our quota last [14:24] quarter. Okay. Well, what does that mean [14:26] for the business if you don't hit your [14:27] quarter target? Well, you know, if we [14:29] don't hit our quarter target, and this [14:30] is assuming that this person is wide [14:31] open and giving you this information. [14:33] Yeah. Yeah. Almost never, right? But [14:35] yeah. Uh you know what? If we don't hit [14:36] our quarter target, we're going to be in [14:38] trouble. That means I won't be able to [14:39] hire the amount of reps that I need. And [14:40] we're probably we're going for our [14:41] series B round funding right now. If we [14:43] don't hit that, I'm going to be okay. [14:44] Well, what does that mean for you [14:45] personally? Well, if I don't hit the you [14:47] know that then I'm getting fired and [14:49] then you have it like to Sandler's whole [14:51] thing, right? It's like by the time you [14:52] get to that now I got what I can sell [14:54] you against because that's your pain. [14:55] That's your third level pain. Okay. Talk [14:58] to me about the difference and and your [15:00] philosophy on getting quantifiable [15:02] metrics during that qualification phase [15:04] that you can because I love what you say [15:06] and Morgan and I are doing this all day [15:07] long which is I'm confused but how do [15:09] you get to the real [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] that people [15:11] like ROI calculators [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] off, right? I [15:13] don't believe any ro ROI calculator [15:15] that's ever been put in front of me. So, [15:17] how do you get the numbers that are real [15:19] that that you can legit say, "Hold [15:21] still, I'm confused." [15:22] Yeah. All right. So, here here's the [15:24] deal. First off, what was interesting [15:25] and you helped me because people ask me [15:26] how do I compare sand all the time gaps [15:28] the same as sound like? No, it is not. [15:31] And here's the first one. The the idea [15:33] of going for the pain is a problem. And [15:36] I'm going to use this word, stay with [15:38] me, is is a problem because pain is a [15:42] symptom of a problem. You cannot have [15:43] pain unless you have a problem. So I [15:45] don't even tell people to shoot for the [15:46] pain that you're missing the mark. You [15:48] just you're shooting for the the yellow [15:50] or the green outer circle, not the red [15:52] inner circle. So you're missing it. [15:53] Okay. [15:54] Um the red inner circle is the problem [15:56] itself that your product or service [16:00] solves. So in your scenario, you said, [16:02] you know, tell me Mr. or Mrs. customer, [16:04] what's your problem? FIRST, IF YOU EVER [16:06] ASKED THAT to me, I'm telling you, [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [16:07] OFF. REALLY? YOU GOT ME ON THE PHONE TO [16:10] ASK ME TO BASICALLY DO YOUR JOB FOR YOU? [16:13] NO. SO, I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU my [16:14] problem is, right? But in your scenario, [16:16] the problem was I can't make my quota. [16:18] Okay, that's great. But you still [16:20] haven't and if you followed your whole [16:21] chain and people go back and listen TO [16:23] THIS, YOU STILL DIDN'T TELL ME REALLY [16:25] WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT I CAN SOLVE. [16:28] BECAUSE WHY YOU'RE NOT MAKING QUOTE, IT [16:30] COULD BE sales training. It could be um [16:32] it could be lack of uh um recruiting and [16:34] not poor sales people. It could be A [16:36] POOR SALES STRUCTURE. IT COULD BE A BAD [16:38] PRODUCT. IT COULD BE A WHOLE BUNCH OF [16:40] REASONS. AND I MAY BE A recruiter and [16:42] can only recruit for you. So I can't [16:44] address those. [16:45] So why would I EVEN GO IN UP HERE? IT [16:47] MAKES NO SENSE. So what I tell people [16:49] first and foremost is you got to know [16:51] exactly [16:52] what problems you solve from your [16:55] product or service, the impact of those [16:58] problems, and the root causes. So then [17:00] you go in and like we just did with the [17:01] skiing. I DON'T SAY, "WHAT'S YOUR [17:03] PROBLEM WITH SKIING?" I COME IN at hey [17:06] do you find in off piece steep things [17:08] you DO THIS BECAUSE THEN I'LL FIX THAT [17:10] RIGHT AND THEN I CAN go then I can do [17:12] what you said there so let's just say we [17:14] do that let's say we use the the same [17:15] one with um sales [17:17] um what sales problem we that training [17:20] solves um okay do you find that your [17:24] sales your average sales cycle is taking [17:27] longer than it should you lose deals [17:31] because OF PEOPLE GOING DARK and never [17:34] getting back with you and because your [17:37] sales team gets destroyed on price if [17:40] they do come back. [17:41] Okay. So, so hold still those. So, [17:43] pause. I love that you're okay with [17:45] closeended questions in this scenario, [17:47] right? [17:47] Absolutely. [17:49] That's what I thought. Okay. So, so [17:51] because because because and this is [17:53] where I think people get it get it lost [17:55] and and the challenge I think a lot of [17:56] people have is that they don't want to [17:58] miss they don't want to be so specific [17:59] that they miss out on an opportunity to [18:01] sell them the suite because like for [18:03] instance I love the approach of hey [18:05] people come to us for three reasons one [18:07] two or three which one are you [18:09] right and by the way if you're not one [18:10] of those three things cool it's been [18:12] good talking to you but we're probably [18:13] not going to get along right so let's [18:16] talk about it like so let's let's put it [18:18] in context in the sense that a lot of [18:19] people have a lot of different [18:20] components of their solution that can [18:23] add value to various stages of whatever [18:25] that problem is. Right? For instance, [18:27] like I I'll use for again like we got [18:29] prospecting, meeting execution, [18:30] negotiation, objection, hand closing, [18:32] right? So I got five things. I also got [18:34] an online portal that plugs in that you [18:35] can do for on boarding, whatever. [18:37] So those are the five things. But if I [18:39] go in straight up and I get a VP of [18:40] sales on the phone, I say, "Hey, do you [18:42] have a problem uh balancing quality and [18:45] quantity prospecting and ensuring that [18:47] your reps aren't pressing play on [18:48] something like a sales loft or a cadence [18:50] and not actually putting any thought [18:51] into it? Do you have that problem?" Now, [18:53] what if they're what if they're just a [18:55] straightup inbound sales organization [18:57] and the guy's like, "No, as a matter of [18:59] fact, like we don't do any of our own [19:01] prospecting. It all comes inbound to us. [19:02] If I just put myself in a pigeon hold [19:04] because I got negotiations, I got this [19:06] other [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] that I can sell them. So, how [19:07] do you position that question to get [19:10] somebody to to not pigeon hole yourself [19:13] into this one small area and open up the [19:15] conversation to other other things? [19:17] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great, great question. [19:19] So, I think the first thing is you got [19:21] to you got to know who you're calling [19:23] and know what problem you're leading [19:24] with. So, when you just said they're [19:25] only inbound, my assumption is you [19:28] probably would have know you would have [19:29] known that, but if you didn't, that's [19:30] okay. And you should have and your a [19:34] salesperson should have enough uh [19:36] industry and problem knowledge [19:38] understanding that they or wisdom that [19:41] they can pivot right there. So if he [19:43] says no, we're all inbound, then you [19:46] should know what problems inbound people [19:49] have, right? So he let's let's OKAY, [19:52] INBOUND PEOPLE HAVE THAT YOU THAT you [19:54] solve that you should be able to pivot [19:56] TO A NEW QUESTION. SO, let's just say we [19:58] do use a skiing one because I don't know [19:59] why it's easier, [20:01] right? And someone say, "No, actually, [20:03] actually, I don't have that problem, [20:05] which I know is not true because I'm [20:07] like even the best in the world have it. [20:09] It's just it's not that frequent. It's [20:11] not that impeding." But so, let's say [20:13] they have it, but not enough to this [20:14] negative impact. Say, "I really don't." [20:16] And then he says, "Or they might say, [20:18] "No, I DON'T BECAUSE I SPEND MOST OF my [20:20] time in the terrain park." [20:22] OKAY. [20:23] AH, [screaming] OKAY. WELL, THAT'S [20:25] LIKE TO ME THAT'S A WIN. LIKE, HEY, I [20:28] know. Yes, I KNOW MORE ABOUT YOUR [20:30] BUSINESS NOW. OH, YOU'RE ALL THE [20:32] INBOUND. SO, OH, YOU'RE IN THE TERRAIN [20:34] PARK. REALLY? TELL ME about that. Now, [20:36] again, you have to know your [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] Are [20:38] you rails? Do you do boxes? Do you do [20:40] jumps? Do you I mean, tell me a little [20:42] more about where you are and how you're [20:43] doing it. Are you on THE MEDIUM TO SMALL [20:45] JUMPS? You in the large jumps? And by [20:46] the way, just so you know, a small jump [20:48] is maybe a four or five foot what's [20:50] called landing. Medium can be anywhere [20:52] between, I don't know, 10, 15 or 20. Uh, [20:55] a large can be any about 25 to 60. And [20:58] an extra large could be 80 to 100 feet [21:01] of flat [21:02] before you get to the to the to the [21:05] down. So, and you don't ever want to [21:06] land on the flat. [21:07] No, I've seen it. [laughter] [21:09] SO, JUST BY ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS, [21:12] I start to know where they are. And so, [21:14] let's just say here's I'm on the medium [21:16] and I'm saying, really, how come you [21:18] haven't started to do the large yet? [21:20] Right now, I know what I'm looking for [21:22] now. I KNOW THAT HE IS PROBABLY HASN'T [21:24] NAILED his air awareness well enough [21:27] that as he stays in the air too long, he [21:29] starts TO GET OFF ACCESS OR CAN'T HOLD [21:31] IT and Right. So, I can I can address [21:34] that. So, you struggle with air [21:35] awareness when you're in the air longer [21:36] than two seconds. Dude, exactly. [21:39] I got him like I KNOW WHERE TO GO. [21:42] SO, it's like So, in this scenario of, [21:44] hey, we're all inbound. I could be like, [21:45] oh, cool. So, are you round robin or are [21:47] you uh do you assign uh inside reps to [21:50] the field reps when those inbound leads [21:51] come in? Right. Right. There pivot. [21:54] Right. [21:54] Yes. Or what I might say in this case, I [21:56] might make it more business oriented [21:57] because it's inbound. Do you feel that [21:58] your sales reps are trying to rush the [22:00] sale because they just assume the person [22:02] needs it and misses vital information [22:04] that could have closed the deal because [22:06] they just assume that everybody wants to [22:07] buy from them? [22:08] Gotcha. So, so go let's go back to that [22:10] close-ended question. [22:12] Why are you okay? because most sales [22:14] trainers are are are always coach on. In [22:17] the discovery phase, make sure you ask [22:19] open-ended questions. And you're you're [22:21] saying, "No, close-ended questions are [22:22] legit and if used appropriately." How do [22:25] you use closed-ended questions? And [22:27] what's your what's your followup to a [22:28] yes no answer? [22:30] So, I use closed-ended questions because [22:32] I want to validate and I want I don't [22:34] want wishy-washy. [22:35] Does this problem exist? Yes or no? [22:37] If it exists, I'm going this way. If [22:39] it's no, I'm going this way. IF YOU SAY, [22:41] "WELL, IT KIND OF DOES." SOMETIMES AND [22:43] WE WORK THIS. WELL, NOW I DON'T KNOW [22:44] WHAT TO DO. I I I I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO [22:47] GO YET BECAUSE do is it a problem or is [22:49] it not? YOU KIND OF SUGGEST EITHER WAY. [22:51] SO, NO. NO. When I want a customer to [22:54] tell me exactly what's going on and I [22:56] want to validate something, damn [22:58] straight I watch I ask. [23:00] But you said something important there, [23:01] which is if it if they say yes, then you [23:03] go this way. If you go no, then you go [23:04] this way. So, the idea there is almost [23:06] like if you were to think of tactically [23:08] what to do, you figure out who your [23:09] persona is that you're going after, [23:10] right? VPC of sales SAS industry. What [23:13] are their challenges? What are their [23:14] priorities? I want to talk about that [23:15] for a second, too. But then come up with [23:17] your go-to kind of uh got like not [23:19] gotcha questions, but the get you to [23:21] think questions, right? And they could [23:23] be close-ended, but if they're [23:24] close-ended, you have to have an answer [23:25] or a follow-up question. Yes. [23:27] Whether it's yes or no, right? So, it's [23:29] like I tell people all the time, feel [23:31] free to ask a close-ended question. Just [23:33] be prepared that if I say no, that you [23:36] have an immediate rebuttal to say, [23:37] "Okay, cool. Well, then and then ask me [23:39] a little bit more maybe of an open-ended [23:41] question again. [23:42] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Rarely do I have [23:45] rare I shouldn't say this, but rarely do [23:46] I ever ask two closedended questions in [23:48] a row. [23:49] I mean, closed-ended questions are [23:51] directional in my They're validating or [23:53] they're directional. [23:54] Got it. Let's talk about pain and [23:56] pleasure because I know you're you're [23:58] the gap to you is about the pain. All [24:00] right. Now, this is where you and I [24:02] differ a little bit, but I'm start I I [24:04] see the data and I see the statistics, [24:06] right? I I think it's like and and I got [24:08] this through Chris Voss, too. Like [24:09] people are three or four times more [24:11] likely to avoid pain than than achieve [24:14] pleasure. Okay. [24:15] Yep. [24:16] So, but this was my question and I [24:17] actually didn't really get a great [24:19] response from Chris on this one. So, I'm [24:20] hoping for one from you. Does that [24:23] matter as it relates to the power line? [24:25] And let me explain. Right. So, my [24:27] experience is people below the power [24:29] line are typically focused on today or [24:31] yesterday, which is usually pain. [24:33] They're feeling pain right now. But when [24:35] I talk to an executive, if I talk about [24:38] like kind of the pain about today and [24:40] what's happening today, they see they [24:42] get disinterested pretty quick. But if I [24:44] start talking about where I can take [24:45] them about what their vision is for the [24:47] next 12 to 24 months of their business [24:49] and what your goal is to spend some like [24:51] for me, like to spend time with my [24:52] daughter and get off of an airplane, [24:53] like you get me talking about that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [24:55] man, and I am I'll light up like a [24:56] Christmas tree if you want. I will tell [24:58] you everything you need to know to sell [24:59] me. You talk about today what's I [25:01] usually delegate that down to somebody [25:02] else who's dealing with that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] So [25:04] what is your like is it is it a blanket [25:06] you you just go for the problem or do [25:10] you do you kind of segment out and and [25:12] sprinkle a little bit of vision on top [25:14] of like do you start with the vision and [25:16] then back it up or do you start with the [25:17] pain and paint the vision. So I always [25:20] start with not the pain [25:22] the problem. [25:23] I always start with the problem [25:25] and but if you look if you look at gap [25:27] selling what is gap selling? What what [25:29] are the two elements of gap? Well the [25:31] street but what are the two elements of [25:32] gap selling? [25:33] Current and desire [25:34] current state [25:35] desired state. [25:36] Close future state. [25:37] Future state. Okay. [25:40] Might not know it yet. Yeah. [25:41] Yep. Current state is what? [25:44] Uh [25:47] problem. I guess [25:48] the paint. Well, yes. Okay. Sorry, this [25:50] we're gonna confuse people, but in your [25:51] scenario, in the psychological scenario, [25:53] it's the pain. [25:55] Yeah. [25:55] The pain lives in the current state, [25:59] right? [26:00] The future state is where the pleasure [26:01] lives. [26:02] Yep. [26:03] So, really what I do is I don't go in, [26:05] and you said it yourself again, and I do [26:07] this to sales people, and I try to be as [26:08] respectful with people I love, LIKE [26:09] YOURSELF. I DON'T TALK TO PEOPLE, and I [26:14] BEG PEOPLE IN GAB, DON'T TALK TO PEOPLE. [26:17] GET THEM TALKING THEMSELVES. So what I [26:20] whether it's A WHETHER IT'S ABOVE THE [26:22] POWER LINE OR BELOW THE power line, if I [26:24] can get them talking about the problem [26:27] [clears throat] [26:27] and I can get them to give me their [26:29] current state in whatever particular [26:31] order, but the physical and literal, the [26:32] problem, the impact, the root cause, [26:35] THEN I CAN START moving them into a [26:37] conversation. Well, if we did this and [26:39] we did that and we did this and WE DID [26:40] THAT, THIS COULD BE THE OUTCOME. THEN [26:42] THEY GET EXCITED. BUT BY DOING THAT IN [26:45] THAT order and getting them talking, NOT [26:48] ME TELLING, I DON'T TELL UNTIL THAT [26:50] WHOLE PROCESS IS DONE. UNTIL I FIND THE [26:52] GAP, I don't tell a thing. I ask and get [26:55] them talking. And if we get that whole [26:58] thing done correctly, the level of [27:00] credibility you have that you can [27:02] actually solve their problem, then you [27:05] talk about the future. [27:06] All right, so here's the So check this [27:08] out. Let's back that up. Let's let's [27:09] push on that with some data. Uh, Bong [27:12] says, "But the average uh the average [27:14] sales rep through a qualification call [27:16] asks 11 to 14 questions, right?" Above [27:18] average, above average, it last 11 to 14 [27:20] questions. Below ask more or less, [27:22] whatever. Except for when it comes to [27:24] executives. Yep. [27:26] So now when you when you got an [27:28] executive on a phone, you got four [27:29] questions that you can ask them before [27:31] the conversion ratios drop to the floor. [27:32] And I can tell I I know that, right? You [27:34] know that as well. Like you and I are [27:35] both pretty impatient people. We're [27:37] pretty educated with when we want to buy [27:38] something, we've done our homework. It's [27:40] rare that you and I are just going to [27:41] pop on a call and be like, "Yo, what's [27:43] up?" Right. So, we've kind of we know [27:45] and we get impatient. So, after like [27:46] three or four questions, it's like, "All [27:48] right, when am I going to get mine?" [27:49] Yeah. [27:49] So, to your point of doing it, right, [27:51] which I agree with, like if in a in a [27:53] perfect world, we get that scenario when [27:55] I get you, I ask you those right [27:56] questions, you start flowing, you start [27:57] talking, and all of a sudden, I can [27:58] understand that and then paint you that [28:00] picture. But say you got that executive [28:01] that gives you two, three, four [28:03] questions before they're like, "All [28:04] right, Kenan, tell me how the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you g [28:06] like what so what what the hell is a [28:08] sales guy all about? like what can you [28:10] what can you bring to the table for me [28:12] and I've answered like what first of all [28:14] do you have like three or four like [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [28:15] you questions that that can give you [28:17] that answer or do you push back and say [28:20] look I still don't have enough intel to [28:22] be able to tell you how I can help. [28:23] Yep. That's what I do. I push back. [28:24] Okay. [28:25] And I've lost one or two deals by [28:26] pushing back but I was perfectly okay [28:28] with it because I didn't know how I [28:29] could help. Right. So what I really try [28:31] to do is is my big go-to question is [28:33] tell me a little bit about [28:36] that's my big go-to question. [28:38] Tell me a little bit about what [28:39] anything. [28:40] Tell me a little Tell me a little bit [28:41] about [28:42] your process. [28:43] Tell me a little bit about how your [28:44] sales team delivers. Tell me a little [28:46] bit how you compete. Like I don't know [28:47] whatever [28:48] was on the table at the time, right? And [28:51] yeah. And I listen intently. Like that's [28:54] the one thing I don't know how to teach [28:55] people. Like I pick up on [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] THAT [28:58] PEOPLE JUST WHOA. AND I'M LIKE IT'S [29:00] RIGHT THERE. HOW'D YOU MISS IT? I DON'T [29:01] KNOW IT. So I don't know how to teach [29:03] that. But I listen and I listen for the [29:04] connections like the mortar. No. I don't [29:07] want to hear the brick. Brick's easy for [29:08] me. It's the mortar, right? And I pay [29:11] very close attention. And then that's [29:12] why with executives above the line, [29:14] that's where I'll push some of the [29:15] provoking questions because executives [29:16] have this attitude that they know [29:17] everything and you're wasting their [29:19] time. So rather than asking is too many [29:21] probing questions. If I can get them [29:22] just talking a little bit about what [29:24] they do and then I can provoke them [29:25] rather than probe deeper. So he's like, [29:27] "Oh, you know, our sales team is great. [29:29] Um, you know, they do this, this, and [29:31] this and they're fantastic." And they [29:33] might have said in their answer, "All I [29:35] need is this much." I'm like, "Wait, you [29:37] did say that [29:39] when that happens, do you find this?" [29:42] Right? I'm sort of provoking them, [29:44] right? To get them to think about that. [29:46] And if I get them thinking, that's the [29:48] thing people need to understand with [29:49] executives. If you can get them [29:51] thinking, [29:53] you got them LIKE THEY'RE THEY'RE JUST [29:56] TOO BUSY. AND THEY'RE AND LOOK, I LOVE [29:58] GONG'S RESEARCH. I love it. But here's [29:59] the only and it's not a knock. It's just [30:01] they can't do it. is it's it's one level [30:04] too high. In other words, in most cases, [30:07] BECAUSE I AGREE WITH THE GENERAL [30:08] PREMISE, MORE QUESTIONS, better [30:10] discovery. But what we're not seeing is [30:12] what questions are being asked. [30:14] Absolutely. [30:15] Right. And and that is the gold right [30:17] there. And I watch the questions sales [30:19] people ask. And I watch questions some [30:20] super impressive sales thought leaders [30:23] ask, AND I'M LIKE, "WOW, YOU GET PAID TO [30:26] TEACH THAT SHIT." So [laughter] [30:29] I just I I I just am like, "Yes, gong." [30:31] I love gong. I agree with 90% of what [30:33] they come out with. I just wish we could [30:35] get one layer deeper because I think [30:36] that's where the gold is. [30:37] Yeah. No, I I I think the um the idea of [30:42] I I think I I say to people all the time [30:44] outside of prospecting because a big [30:45] funnel fills every, you know, fixes all [30:47] problems. I think the number one skill [30:48] that every rep can get better at, I [30:50] don't care how good you are, I don't [30:52] care how experienced you are, is asking [30:53] better questions. [30:54] Yes. [30:54] Is being able to layer on those [30:55] questions in a sequence. Because to your [30:57] point, if I can get you to pause for a [30:59] second there and say, "Fuck, you know [31:01] what? Like I don't that now all of a [31:03] sudden we're having, you know, one of [31:04] the things that Jeff Hoffman, my you [31:06] know, my mentor, one of my mentors does, [31:08] like I love the way he does this is is [31:10] after he listens to whatever you say, [31:12] you know, your you know, describe to me [31:14] your process or whatever it is, he'll go [31:16] he'll actually go, you know what, I I [31:17] really liked what you said there about [31:19] the lead flow, about how it comes in and [31:20] what your follow-up process is. you [31:22] know, I I don't necessarily agree with [31:24] how you're handling X, but you know, and [31:27] he and he almost like throws it out [31:28] there like it's no big deal, but he's [31:30] like, "No, I really like what you said [31:32] here, but I you know, I I I kind of [31:34] differ in my opinion about that." [31:36] And the whole idea there is to get that [31:38] person to go because as soon as you do [31:39] that, the executive is going to go, [31:41] "Excuse me." Like, why don't you agree [31:43] with that? [31:44] And then that's the now you got them, [31:46] right? because now now we're talking [31:48] about something they they are definitely [31:50] interested as far as your opinion on [31:52] that scenario. I like that approach [31:55] because it's similar scenario here. [31:56] So you asked you and I don't think I [31:58] answered the question well so you [31:59] brought it back and I want to answer for [32:00] you. You asked how do you get the [32:01] specifics? That's was the original [32:02] question. I don't know how I got over in [32:03] left field like how do you get the [32:04] measurable [32:05] Yeah. Yeah. Like I mean I was going to [32:07] get back to that but yeah like how do [32:08] you like and and Yeah. So like the the [32:11] stuff that matters, you know, like [32:13] so you when you just use that example [32:15] with Hoffman, right? [32:17] I would have done it slightly [32:19] differently. [32:19] Okay. [32:20] I heard everything they said and I saw [32:21] an area where he said, "I'm not I don't [32:23] agree with this." [32:24] Yep. [32:25] And I I bet Hoffman knows. He just has a [32:27] different style. [32:28] I I'm I'm paraphrasing it, so he [32:30] probably does it a lot better than that. [32:31] But that's the [32:32] I thought it was good, though. I thought [32:33] it WAS GOOD. WHAT I WOULD DO THERE IS I [32:35] WOULD USE THAT TO get the information [32:36] you're looking for. So, I would go to [32:38] that situation and say, "Hey, Tom, you [32:40] know, I liked what you said here. This [32:43] stuff seems pretty solid, but when you [32:45] sit over here, [32:46] when you said your team does this, this, [32:48] and this, what's been the outcome, [32:53] RIGHT?" LIKE, I KNOW IT'S NOT A GOOD [32:55] OUTCOME. [32:57] I'M NOT GOING TO JUMP IN AND TELL THEM I [32:58] DISAGREE, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. LIKE, THIS [33:00] IS WHAT I KEEP TRYING TO PILE ON. EVEN [33:02] WHEN I KNOW THE ANSWER, I don't tell [33:05] them. [33:05] I'm like a therapist. I'm not going to [33:07] tell you the answer. I'm going to get [33:08] you to tell. And he'll he might say, [33:10] "Oh, you know, we we don't really get [33:11] the closure rate we'd like." Really? [33:13] What closure rate are you getting? [33:16] Right. So then he tells, "Well, what [33:18] would your closure rate like to be?" [33:20] Y blah blah. OKAY. FUTURE STATE NUMBER [33:22] ONE. THERE IT IS. RIGHT. AND I DIDN'T [33:25] HAVE to tell him anything. THIS IS THE [33:28] ART, JOHN. AND IT'S THE HARDEST THING [33:30] FOR SALES PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY LOVE [33:31] TELLING PEOPLE [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] I don't tell people [33:36] anything until I get the gap. And then [33:38] what I tell them is the how. How we're [33:41] going to fix it, right? That's when the [33:43] product stuff comes in. But I don't tell [33:45] them about THEIR PROBLEM. LIKE A DOCTOR, [33:47] RIGHT? As doctors hate clients who come [33:50] in and tell them what's wrong with them. [33:52] Doctors, right? [33:53] I'm a doctor. I'm going to get you to [33:55] explain it. Right. I'm sorry. People [33:58] hate when the doctor tells them what's [33:59] wrong before they've had a chance to [34:00] talk to. They hate it. [34:02] Right. [34:03] I'm the doctor. I'm going to get you to [34:04] tell me everything that's going on. And [34:05] then when I'm completely done and I've [34:07] diagnosed your problem and the gap, [34:10] right? Then I'll tell you what your [34:12] options are to fix it. [34:13] I like it. All right. Now, I'm going to [34:15] end on this one because this is the big [34:16] re this is the big question I got. And [34:18] this is the one that Morgan and I are [34:19] struggling with actually right now, [34:20] right? Because he read your book. I read [34:22] the majority of it. I love the whole [34:23] concept. [34:24] I WANT TO GO ON RECORD. WORLD'S GREATEST [34:26] SALES TRAIN IS REESE GAP SELLING. I'M [34:28] FEELING GOOD. First of all, that that [34:30] ain't me. Like I I'm a sales guy that [34:32] happens to be able to to articulate some [34:34] value a little bit, right? But but that [34:36] said, um with the So the concept here, [34:40] and I love this, and I think that that [34:42] and if you could explain this because [34:44] this has really resonated with Morgan [34:45] and I, which is you've got to get to the [34:47] point where when they push back on you [34:49] on price, when they push back on you on [34:51] timeline, when they push back on you on [34:52] all this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] or they ghost you or [34:54] whatever it is, that you can [34:55] legitimately say, "I'm confused." Like [34:58] I'm legit confused because you said boom [35:00] boom boom. So now like let me give you a [35:02] scenario here. All right. Um we we ask [35:05] the the qualifying questions, right? We [35:06] asked we we you give the kids some [35:09] structure, but then they they get it and [35:11] they ask those questions that gets under [35:13] and I'll give some basics here. So in [35:15] our world, right? Your average deal size [35:16] is 50 G's. You miss your quota by 75% by [35:20] 25% last uh thing. You know, the problem [35:23] is is you're not attracting the right [35:24] talent uh that that gets you to be able [35:27] to sell at that level. You're not making [35:29] any investments. Your sales cycle is 60 [35:31] days. And so, and my training is going [35:33] to cost you $15,000. Okay. So, now I [35:37] have painted a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] holy [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] picture [35:40] here. ACV 50,000 60-day sales cycle [35:43] link. Your problem is you're not [35:44] attracting the right talent. You're not [35:46] retaining the right talent to be able to [35:47] do all that other stuff, right? And [35:49] you've missed your quota. So now it's [35:50] compounded on top of this quarter and [35:52] now you're ghosting me. So what I what [35:54] we do is we quantify a lot that we use [35:56] like a summary email. So you and I have [35:58] that conversation to show active [35:59] listening. We hey Keenan, you know, [36:01] could you do me a favor? Here's a brief, [36:02] you know, outline of what we talked [36:04] about today. Anything I'm missing here, [36:05] right? Whatever. Could you please [36:06] confirm because that's the key here is [36:08] that you send the summary email, but you [36:09] get them to confirm. Yes, John, that's [36:11] accurate. So now I've got all that [36:13] stuff, right? [36:14] And they still don't. You're good at [36:17] that. [36:17] They still don't move. All right. And [36:19] what I had Morgan is my my theory is [36:21] this is that either [36:23] either you didn't articulate the value [36:26] good enough or you're missing something. [36:28] So So what we're having Morgan do and [36:30] this is actually legitimately like for [36:32] deals that are stuck in the pipeline [36:33] that he has all that data that I look [36:35] at. I listen to his gone calls. I'm like [36:37] man you asked the right questions to the [36:39] right person too, right? And and they're [36:41] still not moving or they're still [36:43] pushing off till next quarter. So, I [36:44] told him to send this and we're having [36:45] some luck with this where we put in the [36:47] subject line of of the email. What am I [36:49] missing? Literally, that's the subject [36:51] line. [36:53] And and then it's like, "Hey, Keen, [36:54] we've been working together for a while [36:55] now. Could you confirm that below is [36:57] still accurate this this problem?" Blah [36:59] blah blah blah blah. Because if it is, [37:01] I'm having a hard time understanding why [37:03] you're not jumping on this and doing it [37:04] tomorrow because either I haven't [37:05] articulated the value enough or I'm [37:08] missing something. So, what is it? [37:10] Right? We actually gotten a couple of [37:11] people feedback. Yes, you're missing [37:12] something and this is what it was. Or [37:15] you know what? Yeah, I just don't [37:16] believe that that you can solve that [37:18] problem for me. But but what do you do [37:20] when you when you seemingly have done [37:22] everything right and they're still and [37:24] you say I'm confused and they're like, [37:25] "Yeah, you're and they actually even [37:27] say, "Yeah, you know what, Kenan, you're [37:28] right. All that stuff that you just said [37:30] to me right there, that's 100% accurate. [37:32] We still got to push this till Q3." [37:34] Okay, so there's there's three answers. [37:36] Make sure I get to they all play [37:38] together. The first answer is um and I [37:41] say this all the time and you get this [37:43] is sales is like baseball. Okay? If you [37:46] can bat 350, you're a Hall of Famer. [37:49] Top first first ballot, right? If you [37:52] bat 295, [37:54] you might maybe depending how long you [37:57] can bat it, you might be a Hall of Famer [37:59] and you but you'll get a good 10, you [38:00] know, 10 15 years, but you're you're not [38:02] a big name. Right. Right. Well, the [38:04] difference between 295 and 300 is only [38:07] like 35 hits in an entire season. I [38:08] think it's pretty small. Maybe it's even [38:09] less than that. Right? So, my point in [38:12] that is even when you use the I'm [38:14] confused, you're not going to bat a [38:16] thousand. It just it it's I'm teaching [38:18] you how to go from 290 to 350, right? [38:21] So, keep that in mind. Number one. [38:23] Number two, [38:25] I know it was an example, so I I I don't [38:28] want to lean too much on it, but I can't [38:30] help but I heard the example in your [38:32] example. THERE WAS SOME GOOD STUFF, BUT [38:35] THERE WASN'T ENOUGH, [38:36] RIGHT? There really wasn't a good solid [38:38] understanding of the desired future [38:40] state, right? Just just not losing [38:44] getting to 100% a quota from 75 is not [38:47] enough of a future state. We need to [38:49] understand what the impact of not being [38:52] at quota is. [38:54] Okay. [38:55] The the impact is a huge piece people [38:57] miss. Like, okay, GREAT. YOU'RE AT 75%. [39:00] TELL ME THE IMPACT OF THAT ON your [39:01] organization. And so, oh, well, you know [39:03] what? I'm not making my my um my [39:05] commission or you know, the management's [39:07] getting pissed. Okay, great. But can you [39:09] please tell me some more? Like, is that [39:10] it? Right. And how much money is that? [39:13] Right. So, is that uh half million [39:16] dollars? Is it a million dollars? Is 50 [39:17] million? 100 million? Right. Like, so, [39:19] so it's sort of the open-ended answer [39:21] piece. I like 25%, but what does that [39:22] represent? [39:23] So, I think in your example, THERE WAS A [39:25] LOT more future state impact information [39:28] you could have gotten that could have [39:30] taken you two or three layers down that [39:32] you could have said, "Oh, you know what? [39:33] Although this seems like a big deal, I [39:35] it's really just about missing quota. [39:37] There's no series B on the line. There's [39:39] no jobs on the line. There's no [39:41] competitive loss. I don't like there's [39:44] it sucks." [39:45] Yep. [39:46] BUT THERE'S REALLY NOTHING THERE, RIGHT? [39:48] AND TO KNOW THAT UPFRONT could answer [39:50] some of those questions. And I think [39:53] just the last piece then is um as you [39:55] described it is um um okay this the [39:58] situation. What was the other? Oh [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [40:00] It was one of the third piece and I [40:04] ah it'll [screaming] come back to me. [40:05] But [40:06] yes, but those are the two main JUMPED [40:08] UP. YOU JUST I GUESS THE LAST one is in [40:10] your discovery. You just got to get you [40:12] got to go further than you think you've [40:14] gone. We we think we get there [40:18] gap selling demands so much more than [40:21] people understand. And that's my biggest [40:23] challenge is selling it. Oh, wait. Oh, [40:24] we already do a discovery. No, you [40:26] don't. NOT A GAP SELLING DISCOVERY. YOU [40:28] DON'T, RIGHT? You you Oh, that's the [40:30] third one. The third one. You can't [40:32] start selling until you know the gap and [40:35] you can quantify the gap. And it's more [40:37] than just, as you said, the ROI [40:39] calculator. Right. [40:40] Right. It's more than, and I'll give you [40:41] a really brief example, and I'm not [40:43] going to use any names, but I talk about [40:45] in the book. I won an account that [40:46] turned out being a two-year account. So, [40:48] it was worth well over six figures, [40:50] right? Monthly retainer for two years. [40:53] And the reason I wanted is all these [40:55] other sales expert influencers got there [40:58] before me actually [41:00] and they all did a discovery. [41:03] But what I was able to do in my [41:04] discovery is I was able to push the [41:06] impact further. And as I dug into, well, [41:08] why does it matter that you're not at [41:10] quarter? Why does it matter that you're [41:11] because they weren't growing, by the [41:12] way, they were growing at 20% or [41:13] year-over-year. Why is why are you not [41:16] happy with the 20%. AS I PUSHED AND [41:18] PUSHED AND QUESTIONED AND QUESTIONED, [41:20] FINALLY GOT to they had a behag of $48 [41:25] million in three and a half or four [41:28] years. And that they were even though [41:30] they were growing at 20%, they were $7 [41:32] million behind. Mhm. [41:35] And and I was like, "Well, HOW ARE YOU [41:37] GOING TO MAKE YOU GOT TO MAKE UP THE [41:38] SEVEN MILLION AND do that?" [41:40] Yeah. [41:40] And he hadn't have thought that. And [41:42] none of the other experts got that level [41:45] of information. [41:47] So a discovery is not a word. It it it [41:50] is an action. And you can't hit bunts at [41:53] a discovery and say you've done a [41:54] discovery. Your discovery has to be a [41:55] home run every time. [41:56] So do you think one of the most [41:57] important discover discovery questions [41:59] is why? [42:02] Why is that important? Why does that [42:04] matter? Why isable? [42:05] Yes. Yes. Yes. I I I I hesitated only in [42:10] that once you get it's a I actually I [42:14] wish you would ask me this question two [42:16] years ago because it would have made it [42:17] to the book. I've never processed this [42:18] before, but it's a great question. Um [42:22] the the once I understand your first [42:25] layer of your problem, like I'm not [42:27] getting um so first the what is what's [42:29] going on? I'm not making quota. I'm not [42:32] growing fast enough, we're not hitting [42:34] our number, whatever the case may be, [42:36] right? Okay. Well, then the next one for [42:37] me is how. Well, tell me a bit of how [42:39] you're doing it today. So, first what [42:40] what the problem is. Secondly, how are [42:42] you performing? Like what are your [42:44] execution strategies? Right? So, I want [42:46] to understand what's going on. That gets [42:47] me to the root cause and then after the [42:49] how. Then it becomes okay now is why [42:52] does that matter? [42:53] Yeah. [42:53] So, I I want to go through it like that [42:55] process. Some people might say well put [42:57] why first. I'M LIKE, I CAN. BUT THE [42:59] PROBLEM WITH THAT IS WHY IS A natural [43:00] conduit to the future state. And if I do [43:03] that too early, it's hard to come back [43:04] and have them explain the how. And the [43:07] how is where I win my credibility. The [43:09] how is where I really find the I can use [43:12] the the triggers to anchor my solution [43:14] and fixing it, right? Because the how is [43:16] is the is the the real problem that's [43:19] happening. Like it's it's the cause. [43:21] It's the root cause. And so if I if I if [43:24] I don't get to the root cause, it's hard [43:26] for me to do what you did. What you were [43:28] talking about IS EXPLAIN WHY I CAN FIX [43:30] IT. [43:30] I CAN TELL YOU WHY I CAN FIX THIS [43:32] BECAUSE THE PROBLEM IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF [43:34] YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT AND I CAN FIX THAT [43:36] THIS WAY. DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE? [43:38] ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. So it's I like [43:40] that framework, right? It's it's what's [43:42] the problem? How are you currently [43:44] dealing with it now? And why is the [43:46] problem an issue? And then I can tailor [43:49] my conversation towards the components [43:51] of my solution that fit fit that fix [43:53] that problem. And then I can use the I'm [43:55] confused because I got the the why it's [43:58] a problem. Yes. Right. So, okay. [44:01] Yes. Why? Like, so using the one where I [44:03] just gave you, you said, "Well, you're [44:04] too expensive, Keen." I'm like, "Well, [44:06] wait a minute. You told me that you're [44:08] not going TO HIT YOUR BEEH." OH, I'M [44:09] SORRY. THE OTHER part of that bee hack [44:11] story I didn't tell is they had an exit [44:14] plan and they based on their research [44:16] and some other things, they found that [44:17] that number was the difference between a [44:19] small exit and a massive exit. like I [44:22] don't know it's some magic number in [44:23] their space, right? And so not only was [44:26] it did we get to that and make more [44:28] money, our valuation goes from like 4x [44:31] to 12x. [44:32] Yeah. [44:33] So that's where you by me getting there [44:35] had which they didn't but had they [44:37] pushed back and said no key that's [44:39] awfully expensive I could say wait I'm [44:41] confused. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A 12X [44:44] VALUATION on $48 MILLION A YEAR. WE'RE [44:48] TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU'RE SEVEN [44:49] MILLION BEHIND NOW. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT [44:52] I'M CONFUSED. WHY DO YOU THINK I'M too [44:54] expensive? [44:55] Right. I love it. I love it. And is that [44:58] I mean, do you give the same advice [44:59] because the the challenge and we'll [45:01] finish here. Do you give the same advice [45:02] on on you know products? Because I [45:04] always hear this a lot from reps like, [45:06] "Oh, we're we're a like to have, not a [45:08] mustave." So that's why it's hard to [45:09] sell. Do you call [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] on that one? [45:11] 100%. That's product ccentric selling. [45:14] It look Yeah. OKAY. YOU READY? AH, THIS [45:17] IS THE BEST. OKAY. GUM. [snorts] OH, I [45:19] wish I had a piece of gum. I could hold [45:20] it up. Is gum a like to have a a nice to [45:24] have? Oh, thank you very much. Gum. Is [45:26] that a Is that a need to have or a LIKE [45:27] TO HAVE? WHAT WOULD most sales people [45:29] tell you that is what that is? [45:30] That's a like to have all day long. It's [45:31] not need to have. I don't need that. [45:33] Okay. If you're a product centric [45:35] selling salesperson, gum isn't like to [45:37] have. [45:37] Yep. [45:38] UNTIL I EVERY PERSON WHO COMES UP TO ME [45:40] AND SAYS they want to buy gum, I'm like, [45:41] "What? Tell me what's going on. Why do [45:43] you want to buy the gum?" [45:44] Right? AND THAT PERSON THAT COMES TO ME [45:46] AND SAYS, "I'VE GOT A DATE IN 15 minutes [45:48] with MOLLY SIMS." THAT IS NO [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [45:50] LIFE TO HAVE, BRO. THAT IS A MUSTH HAVE. [45:54] RIGHT? SO, I don't again people LISTEN [45:57] TO ME LOUD AND CLEAR. I DON'T CARE WHAT [45:59] I'M SELLING. I DO NOT FOCUS ON WHAT I'M [46:01] SELLING. I have trained my mind trained [46:04] my mind to only focus on the scenarios [46:09] WHERE THE PROBLEMS ARE THE BIGGEST TO [46:11] THE PEOPLE I SELL TO. I'M SELLING GUM. [46:14] I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE GOING ON DATES. [46:16] I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE UM UH GETTING [46:18] INVOLVED IN MEETINGS. I'M TALKING ABOUT [46:20] THE EMBARRASSMENT OF BAD BREATH. LIKE [46:22] I'M TALKING ABOUT [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] THAT THEY DON'T [46:24] WANT TO DEAL WITH. That is not a LIKE TO [46:26] HAVE. HAVING SHITTY BREATH AT A BUSINESS [46:28] meeting or on a date is not a like to [46:32] have. [46:33] I couldn't agree. And that's why and [46:34] we're going to come all the way back to [46:36] the beginning of this. This is why I [46:37] think companies need to do a much better [46:38] job at profiling their ideal customer [46:42] profile. Because if you just give a list [46:44] to a kid of a thousand names that are [46:46] demographically profiled from five to [46:48] 500 or whatever it is in these [46:50] industries, you ain't giving them the [46:51] tools to be able to ask the questions to [46:53] the right people. They're forced to be [46:55] generic with their message. And with [46:57] generic questions and generic messaging, [46:59] you get generic answers and you get [47:01] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] answers. [47:02] Yes. [47:02] So that's link to that. [47:04] Please do. So everything you said [47:07] y [47:08] and the problems that inflict them. [47:13] Educate your young kids on the problems. [47:17] And if your organization doesn't know [47:18] and then good for you to admit it and go [47:20] do your research, GET WITH YOUR EXISTING [47:22] CUSTOMERS. ASK THEM WHAT PROBLEMS WERE [47:24] THEY were struggling with, why they [47:25] bought, and how it's affected their [47:26] organization. MAKE NEW REPS. SIT WITH [47:29] EXISTING customers or your CUSTOMER [47:30] SUCCESS TEAM AND HEAR ABOUT WHAT [47:31] PROBLEMS they're trying to to eradicate [47:33] and get them be experts in the problem [47:36] so they can look like a partner that [47:39] says, "OH, WOW. YOU GET what I'm dealing [47:43] with." [47:43] Yep. Again, that's me. That's me, right? [47:47] Not not that's not that's right. Not [47:49] your right. That's right. That's what [47:50] you got to get to those problems. [47:52] Yes. [47:53] Love it, my friend. All right, man. [47:54] Well, tell everybody how they can find [47:56] out more about you, follow you, do [47:57] whatever. Where you want people send [47:58] people to get more information on a [48:00] sales guy and gaps selling and [48:01] everything else. [48:02] Yeah, you can go to look, you go [48:03] gapselling.com. You can go to a [48:04] salesguy.com. I mean, if I really want [48:06] to make it easy, just go Keenan or Jim [48:09] Keenan and Google and I think I'm every [48:11] page. Kenan's harder one to harder one [48:13] to win. There's a lot of big famous [48:14] Keenan people there, but I'm still in [48:15] the top three. I just don't own the [48:16] whole page. Um, but Jim Ken the whole [48:19] page like just go there. You find me on [48:21] LinkedIn under Keenan. Um, I'm easy to [48:24] find if you want to find me. [48:25] Awesome, man. Definitely keep follow him [48:27] on LinkedIn. He yells at you every day [48:29] with something. Uh, it's all good [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [48:32] It's just coming at you hard. So, you [48:34] better So, for my audience, my audience [48:35] is pretty pretty uh attuned to me being [48:38] like straight up in your face type of [48:39] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] Uh, Keenan takes it up a notch. [48:41] So, if you want to if you want to get, [48:43] you know, if you if you're too [48:45] sensitive, then back off either one of [48:46] us. But if if you really if you want to [48:48] get punched in the face a couple times [48:49] because we all need to get punched in [48:50] the face a couple times, follow Kenan [48:52] because he knows his [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] All right, [48:54] everybody. Thanks, Kenan, man. I really [48:56] appreciate you coming on board here. [48:58] Thank you, my man. It was a great time. [48:59] Absolutely. And we'll take we'll we'll [49:01] do this again. We'll do this again [49:02] because I'm looking forward to some more [49:04] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] coming out from you. Uh but for [49:06] everybody out there, thanks for [49:07] listening. If you do nothing else today, [49:09] as usual, go make somebody smile. If you [49:11] made somebody smile today, you know you [49:12] had a good day. All right, have a great [49:14] week, everybody. Let's make it happen. [49:18] All right, cool. [49:20] Thanks,

===FILE=== GKyNQSS1o6Q - Oren Klaff talks with Keenan the Author of GAP Selling.txt
https://youtu.be/GKyNQSS1o6Q
Oren Klaff talks with Keenan the Author of GAP Selling

[0:02] welcome to the dealmaker show the number [0:05] one place for entrepreneurs and deal [0:07] makers to learn about leveraging and [0:08] generating status frame control and [0:11] narrative power to close big deals here [0:14] is your host investment banker deal [0:17] making expert and best-selling author of [0:19] pitch anything and flip the script mr [0:22] oren claff [0:24] all right guys welcome welcome this is [0:27] the deal maker show i'm oren klaff we do [0:30] this a couple times a week this is your [0:33] place to discover new things about [0:35] culture [0:36] technology [0:38] business but all within the context of [0:40] deal making i try and bring the most [0:41] interesting people i can find who have a [0:44] very [0:44] strong opinion on deal making either [0:47] from the south side the negotiation side [0:49] the capital side the finance side the [0:52] exit side the origination side the tech [0:54] stack side would put all that together [0:57] boom you should have a couple things you [0:59] can do today with your business i want [1:01] to bring on my guest today a very [1:03] interesting character at least from his [1:06] writing and his website and his youtube [1:08] and his videos and everything i can see [1:10] looks interesting might be the most [1:12] boring guy in the world [1:13] we're about to find out [1:15] keenan hey welcome why are you still [1:18] doubting like are you really that much [1:20] of a pessimist that you're still [1:21] doubting you're not we just haven't met [1:24] you know you meet so you meet these [1:25] people they're wonderful curated [1:27] instagrams they uh their their videos [1:30] are all blown up they have interesting [1:31] things today you get them online and [1:32] they are uh yeah so i'm very happy to be [1:35] here today if my parents could have [1:37] changed my middle name they would have [1:38] changed it to authentic [1:40] i mean that's just all there is to it i [1:42] am what i am man popeye baby papa i am [1:44] what i am so uh you have three kids are [1:47] they what they are [1:48] i'm sorry you have three kids right [1:50] three daughters three daughters yeah i'm [1:52] a girl dad yeah yeah yeah how old are [1:55] those kids uh 16 in two weeks uh wait [1:58] one week is their 16th birthday and then [2:00] 14 and 11. i thought you were like a 23 [2:03] year old i appreciate that man i'm all [2:05] this dirt [2:08] uh there's a comedy routine anyway uh [2:12] about well let's not get on a strong [2:14] cultural topics let's get into i think [2:16] what we came here to talk about so so [2:18] look i think uh [2:20] gap selling is a very interesting book i [2:24] recommend it uh for people [2:26] i think it's complementary to pitch [2:28] anything in many many ways there's some [2:31] things in there you know that you should [2:33] never have written and i'm going to [2:34] contact your publisher and have you take [2:35] them out no um i i think we agree on [2:39] some things as it comes [2:41] to selling i think the most important [2:43] thing that you've done which interests [2:45] me and what i want to talk about today [2:47] is you've gotten away from features [2:50] benefits stretch benefits tie down [2:53] daniel and i were talking by the way if [2:55] you're not familiar with features [2:56] benefits stretch benefits tie down if [2:58] you want to make your clients and [3:00] customers feel as [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] uncomfortable [3:03] as possible [3:04] do that yeah give me an example give an [3:06] example from in your mind of a feature [3:08] benefit stretch benefit tie-down [3:11] so i [3:12] here's my hat it's a great hat um my [3:15] favorite is if you're looking to to keep [3:18] the sun out of your eyes or if you're [3:20] looking to to keep cool in the summer [3:23] this is great look it's got flex fit it [3:25] you don't have to mess with the thing in [3:28] the back that you know breaks if you [3:29] open it up too often you know it's made [3:31] of a cooling material so you know if if [3:34] this this this that this is great for [3:36] you and it's only you know five dollars [3:38] blah blah blah right i mean it's just [3:40] talking about my stupid hat i have no [3:42] freaking clue why you would need a hat i [3:44] have no clue um if you ever want a hat [3:46] before i have no clue if you ever go out [3:47] in the sun i have no clue if you play [3:49] baseball i have no clue who you are but [3:50] i'm gonna start spewing [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about [3:52] my great hat hoping some of that stuff [3:54] sticks [3:55] yeah and so uh [3:58] keenan i did want thank you for sharing [3:59] that i did want to tell you about our [4:00] new phone here uh the camera is um 18 [4:04] megapixels it can store over 50 000 [4:06] photos that's two years of photos of [4:08] kids no matter how many kids you have uh [4:10] and you said you loved your kids right [4:12] yeah of course okay yeah well uh so the [4:16] the phone uh also has a kidlock on it [4:18] didn't you say you wanted to restrict [4:20] screen time for your kids [4:22] nope didn't say that oh you know okay [4:24] but many parents [4:26] feel [4:27] as if that that's an important thing and [4:29] then when i asked them about it they [4:31] felt like that would be important to [4:32] them and then when they used our phone [4:34] they found that this was the best phone [4:37] on the market listen i know you said [4:38] you're interested in a phone today uh [4:40] this one seems to fit all the things [4:42] that you said that you were interested [4:45] in if we can find the right price can we [4:46] wrap this one up and get you on your way [4:49] to your next job [4:51] now maybe i don't know i need more time [4:52] need more time to think [4:56] oh okay great what do you need to think [4:57] about [4:58] i don't know i don't know i'm not sure [5:00] if i have a phone maybe i i may be able [5:02] to just use my other camera i don't know [5:04] i'm just too busy right now i got to go [5:05] but you said your girls were the most [5:07] important thing in your life to you and [5:08] wouldn't have an eight a photo that you [5:11] could send to the grandparents that [5:12] really uh was the best possible photo [5:15] that you could produce and you know you [5:17] also told me your grandparents eyes were [5:19] suffering a little bit it just you know [5:21] the the the best possible megapixel the [5:25] best recreation of your children for or [5:29] yeah they couldn't care less about that [5:32] tough tough customer okay so so feel [5:35] felt found [5:37] features benefits stretch benefit [5:40] tie down and as goofy as that sounds [5:42] probably most of people listen to the [5:43] sound of my voice today are doing some [5:45] version of that [5:46] we heard a little bit from you where is [5:49] the problem in that but but break it [5:52] down for us what's wrong with giving [5:54] someone talking to them saying hey [5:57] you've got a problem you you know you [5:58] haven't updated your refrigerator your [6:00] phone you need sas software you need [6:02] consulting services you need to lose [6:03] weight gain weight [6:04] do better accounting and have pac [6:06] services everything like that [6:08] uh oh i'm getting [6:10] well what's interesting is i'm gonna [6:12] answer your question you said it was [6:13] really powerful too and and even the [6:15] most savvy sales people say and don't [6:16] recognize it you just said you have a [6:18] problem you need a new refrigerator you [6:20] have a problem you need this [6:22] have a problem in need [6:24] they blend them together i to say i have [6:27] a problem i need a new refrigerator [6:29] needing a new refrigerator is not my [6:32] problem [6:33] and i don't know how to say it any more [6:34] than i've said in gap selling and all [6:36] these i've done i really want to punch [6:38] people to those guys when when your boss [6:40] says your sales manager says you hate [6:41] what problem they have and you say oh [6:43] they need new software oh they need a [6:45] crm oh they need no no no no no [6:50] the problem is the part of their [6:52] business their life their experience or [6:54] something that is forcing them to feel [6:57] that their current environment is not [6:59] acceptable any longer and then they [7:02] start thinking oh i need a refrigerator [7:04] oh i need crm but if you don't [7:07] understand what's behind that what the [7:09] literal problem is then you're not [7:11] selling a damn thing you're going back [7:12] to what you said you're hoping the [7:14] features and functions attached to their [7:16] interpretation and you hope that they [7:18] can process it enough to get enough [7:20] energy to buy but that's a that's a crap [7:22] shoot [7:24] uh yeah i agree with you so so just to [7:27] paraphrase [7:28] uh the thing just because you have a [7:31] thing that you know [7:34] will [7:35] can [7:36] should [7:37] definitely will upgrade the quality of [7:39] their performance their life their [7:40] business doesn't mean that they are [7:43] looking at it through the same frames [7:44] and lens and they d i deeply appreciate [7:46] as much as you [7:48] how much you're authentically trying to [7:49] help them their their that gap [7:52] is still there so because you know [7:56] this is this is what i see this is even [7:58] what i internalize if i don't plan i [8:01] know [8:02] we can help them i know i want to help [8:04] them i know where i'm coming from a [8:06] transparent authentic desirable place i [8:08] know if they install the sas software [8:10] that we sell their revenues are going to [8:13] go up their costs are going to go down [8:14] and their life is going to improve um i [8:16] know i know what my why is you know [8:18] simon sinek has taught me my why and uh [8:22] uh you know the the so i've got all my [8:24] logos we're the number one in the market [8:26] it's an indisputable fact that of this [8:28] kind of sas software that improves their [8:30] life makes their accounting better will [8:31] get their more revenue and reduce their [8:33] cost we are the number one we have the [8:36] proof it's you can search it on the web [8:38] i could take you through a demo [8:40] and so i have certainty in my mind [8:44] that i can and will help them [8:47] and you're saying [8:49] that isn't enough to jump the gap [8:51] no where do we go from there because i [8:53] because i don't want to get into people [8:54] who uh [8:57] sort of um if you don't have certainty [9:00] and you don't have authenticity and you [9:01] don't have transparency we don't have [9:03] enough time here to [9:05] help you yeah yeah all right but you [9:08] have a good product you're you've [9:10] nishified it to where you really can [9:12] help people and you've found somebody [9:14] who needs your help [9:15] okay so i think i think you you kind of [9:18] blended a couple of things right so if [9:19] you find somebody you need that needs [9:21] your help i'm good with that but it's [9:22] how we define that you find somebody [9:24] right so [9:26] my definition if you find somebody [9:27] you've had a conversation and you said [9:29] okay i know where my accounting software [9:32] solves problems i know what problems my [9:35] accounting software solves right now [9:37] whether that's in reconciling whether [9:39] that's in automating payments whether [9:41] that is in some brilliant ai that helps [9:43] you find um money in your your your um [9:46] sales outstanding or in um in your your [9:49] uh what do you call that invoicing or [9:51] whatever that can increase your cash [9:52] flow i don't freaking give a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] what [9:53] it is but you know what the problems are [9:56] so let's just say the problems that you [9:58] solve best are improving sales [10:01] outstanding it's um finding money that's [10:03] being wasted and let's say it's um oh [10:05] give me one of the accounting uh county [10:07] reporting accuracy like like your your [10:09] your reporting is is inaccurate right [10:11] perfect [10:12] yes you believe going in that every [10:15] business has those problems but what you [10:17] don't understand is that every business [10:19] has a varying degree of those problems [10:21] how those problems are manifesting [10:23] themselves and then finally what the [10:25] root causes to those problems are and so [10:28] your solution can only bring value if [10:31] the problem is big enough if the impact [10:33] of the organization is big enough and if [10:35] the root cause of the problem is one of [10:37] the things you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] fix too often [10:39] they can have their problem and has [10:40] nothing to do with what you fix okay [10:42] hold on hold on i'm 23 years old right [10:46] and what i just heard was astrophysics [10:48] right because you know the i jump back [10:51] or i will attack and you don't want that [10:53] i got the power [10:54] so [10:56] it's okay i'll simplify it hold [10:59] here's my problem i'm 23 years old i'm [11:02] i'm one year in this sas company right i [11:05] our product has features we have logos [11:07] of all the recognizable companies that [11:09] we help [11:10] we solve these problems deeply there's [11:13] no way you have these things fixed i'm [11:15] looking at you [11:16] right and so let me tell you what we can [11:18] do for you well i think [11:21] we got to turn the lens back on you yeah [11:24] what's the root cause first of all of [11:26] that approach being broken [11:29] yes what we got to do is like you just [11:31] said i know my product i know this but i [11:33] can tell you most sas companies don't [11:35] know the problems they solve lauren and [11:36] i can tell you that because almost every [11:38] time we go into an engagement we ask [11:40] them list the problems we solve and what [11:42] do you think they give us for an answer [11:44] uh we we solve the problem of us not [11:47] having enough money here at our company [11:49] no they say things like let's say what [11:51] problems do you solve when they say [11:52] things like yeah we list the features [11:54] oren they literally list the features [11:55] what business problems do you solve and [11:57] they say things like oh we make it [11:59] faster to [12:00] to to make payroll oh we do this i said [12:02] no no i didn't ask you what you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [12:04] do i literally asked you what problems [12:08] do you solve for businesses and they [12:10] don't know they literally pay us to help [12:13] them go through the process because it's [12:14] that difficult for them to change their [12:16] mindset so what you do to a 23 year old [12:18] is maybe spend less time teaching about [12:20] the product and you spend more time [12:22] teaching about the four or five [12:24] business problems that an accounting [12:26] department a controller or the cfo [12:29] struggle with [12:31] why they struggle what causes them these [12:34] 20 throws can figure that out once you [12:36] put it in a nice easy package and then [12:38] what you just send them out and say go [12:40] ask them if they're struggling with this [12:42] so i think by the way um we did we wrote [12:45] a summary of your book yeah um it's you [12:48] know i mean i like to uh it's quite [12:50] thick i can't go through it all but here [12:51] it is [12:52] so it's fantastic um [12:57] by the way uh this book summary is [12:59] available for 19.99 [13:01] pitch anything.com uh book summaries [13:04] of a gap selling and i want to leave [13:06] some time to get in your new book [13:07] because that's a fascinating area i [13:08] think you'd [13:09] did a good job of jumping into some uh [13:12] new insights as we [13:15] enter an era where everything has [13:18] changed but i want to just keep pounding [13:19] on this because it's very interesting so [13:22] i think [13:23] when i looked at the summary of of no i [13:26] mean i actually did go through it you [13:27] know [13:28] this says know your customer [13:30] scribble scribble scribble yeah okay [13:32] know your customer better than they know [13:34] themselves yes i think that is one area [13:37] where you and i are just absolutely [13:40] um french kissing or sorry that's okay [13:44] we have uh where um [13:46] our philosophies [13:48] uh [13:49] overlap with uh a lot of [13:52] similar [13:53] components is what i meant [13:56] yeah so [13:58] i like to think about it is when you can [14:01] talk to your customer [14:04] in the same terms in the same cadence [14:06] with the same ideas the same level of [14:08] urgency [14:09] uh the same focus as they do on monday [14:13] morning when something is going wrong [14:14] and they call each other when you could [14:16] be on that call and add value to it [14:20] that's the way i think about it [14:22] how did you come about [14:24] to this point of insight that you have [14:26] to know your customer better than they [14:28] know themselves and and by the way if [14:30] your internet just connects now or you [14:31] have something you know something you're [14:32] getting a a horrible car crash but [14:35] you're fine [14:36] insurance [14:37] uh publisher company everybody's fine [14:40] but you are meteor [14:42] lands on you and you're you're hardly [14:44] wounded um and this is the only point [14:47] that you get to [14:48] i think keenan is a million percent [14:51] accurate and when he says know your [14:53] customer [14:54] better than they know themselves [14:56] when you can do that i feel like you can [14:58] only own oh [15:00] be [15:01] not only be a credible in the [15:03] conversation be a peer to them appear [15:06] high status have a seat at the table [15:10] and be able to have a shot at changing [15:14] their view on what they're buying and [15:15] how they're buying it only when they [15:17] believe you can talk to them in their [15:20] language at the level that they talk it [15:22] have a seat at the table i have said and [15:24] sat at many many tables where i've [15:27] just been confused you know my role was [15:29] to say something so the opposite side [15:31] this like i had one role to say [15:32] something but i was terrified because [15:34] all the conversation around it i didn't [15:36] understand it wasn't in context i had [15:38] one thing to say i finally said that one [15:39] thing that i was told to say [15:41] this wasn't yesterday this was many [15:43] years ago and it made no sense to [15:44] anybody at the table make no sense but i [15:46] was told to say it it like got out of my [15:48] mouth i was terrified once it dropped [15:50] like a you know like chewing gum had [15:52] shot out of my mouth and just landed the [15:54] table and everyone was staring at it [15:55] like what the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] are you talking about [15:57] dismissed low value yes yep yep [16:01] and so i've been in those experiences [16:02] and have been in the other experiences [16:04] where people [16:05] really feel like i speak to them in [16:08] their language how did you come to this [16:10] insight and what and and frame it up for [16:12] me uh why you [16:14] think it's so important well so so [16:17] look it came from influencing people so [16:19] i say early in the book your job your [16:21] real job at the end of day is to [16:23] influence people to change okay we can [16:24] put all kinds of fancy words on it but [16:26] really at the end of the day sales [16:28] people are paid to influence somebody to [16:31] change and so what i realized really [16:34] really really early in my life probably [16:36] because i was selfish probably because i [16:38] just wanted to do things i wanted to do [16:40] because i was sort of a rebel and didn't [16:41] like being told no because i'd get [16:43] myself in trouble and i didn't like the [16:44] consequences like there were a million [16:46] different you know [16:47] how dare you live my childhood yeah [16:51] if you had to think for a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] second [16:52] we were that much different you're not [16:53] as smart as i thought you were but um no [16:56] right so i i started learning as a kid [16:59] to to understand why the person was [17:01] punishing me like why are you mad at me [17:03] right now and when i understood why they [17:05] were mad i knew how to respond they [17:07] didn't understand why they were mad i [17:09] would just get defensive like i didn't [17:10] do it i didn't do it but a minute i had [17:11] a teacher say something like look you're [17:13] a really smart kid and when you do these [17:15] things it's going to affect your ability [17:17] to be successful so i'm like oh they [17:19] care for me so i need to respond in a [17:21] way that makes them feel better that i'm [17:24] not going to make mistakes so i'm going [17:25] to they can feel better that i'm not [17:27] going down that path or if all the kids [17:30] in the uh here's a good one i did this [17:31] right i did a lemonade stand [17:33] and i try to understand other kids want [17:34] to do other stuff i'm like but um uh [17:37] let's do the lemonade still we can make [17:38] somebody no i want to go do this i'm [17:39] like dude weren't you just telling me [17:40] the other day that your mom never lets [17:42] you have any sweets and stuff like that [17:44] dude if we do this lemonade stand you [17:46] can go buy those cookies oh yeah i [17:48] forgot about that okay let's do the [17:50] lemonade stand right like it's always [17:52] about them oren and people don't get it [17:56] like in in the most selfish way i can be [17:58] unselfish if i help you understand that [18:02] my role is to get you more of what you [18:04] want based on your terms your vernacular [18:07] your lexicon your metrics your outcomes [18:11] i'm the most valuable resource in your [18:12] goddamn life [18:14] so i learned it as a young age [18:16] uh it's very interesting i i came to the [18:19] same conclusion a little bit differently [18:21] in that um you know i'm a little [18:23] different than you we we grew up very [18:25] the same but i'm you know good looking [18:27] charismatic people like me and that's [18:29] called projecting dude that's called [18:30] projected take a good look [18:32] right [18:35] so so they do you know like to your [18:37] point i knew [18:38] i got good at getting out of trouble by [18:41] being charismatic by understanding what [18:44] their needs motive was and the emotion [18:47] behind why they were mad at me yeah [18:50] right i was i was attaching to their [18:52] emotional response [18:54] so that's theory of mind right how [18:58] your ability to view how other people [19:01] view you but when i got into raising [19:04] money uh or helping people raise money [19:07] we would get all the way down the road [19:09] to an engagement [19:11] where they would say [19:12] i like you i like your company you check [19:16] all the boxes you have the securities [19:17] licenses you have the logos i love [19:19] everything you're saying um i believe [19:22] that you're uh uh forthright and honest [19:24] and you work hard [19:27] but we don't know if you can do it in [19:29] our industry we don't know if you can do [19:31] all these amazing things you've proven [19:33] that you can do yeah yeah for us see [19:35] where you're going here it wasn't until [19:38] yep [19:39] that's what i discovered it wasn't until [19:41] i would you know come say things like [19:43] this uh and this is for my clients right [19:46] hey looks like the fed discount window [19:47] is at 2.1 percent this morning if it [19:49] drops to you know 2.05 you know capital [19:52] is going to circle the globe you know at [19:54] two times the current rate you know we [19:56] probably wouldn't be able to pull a [19:57] hundred million dollars from the private [19:58] equity overhang until that uh full [20:01] circulation has happened and with gdp [20:03] sort of declining as we're getting into [20:05] a couple of variants it sort of appears [20:07] that uh unless we accelerate our pace [20:10] now and increase the pace of marketing [20:12] until you know through at least the end [20:15] of october season and be hard to project [20:17] first quarter [20:18] 2022 as growth to the board i mean you [20:21] guys see it that way [20:22] and it'd be like this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] right [20:25] here yes now do you know what you did [20:26] watch this oren in my book [20:29] that you're you're referencing the most [20:31] okay not the most one of the most [20:32] important elements what did you just [20:34] describe this is all i'm going to cut to [20:36] the chase what you just did right there [20:38] is you highlighted a root cause [20:42] and you cannot highlight root causes [20:44] unless you understand the business so [20:47] the minute they recognize oh he gets the [20:49] root cause then i believe he can fix the [20:52] problem that's why i get selling we [20:54] spend so much time breaking like look [20:57] traditional selling when you've seen it [20:58] find the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] pain find the pain find [21:00] the pain [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] i'm so tired of that [21:01] stupid thing because pain is such a [21:03] broad sweeping [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] word that you [21:06] don't know what to do with when you [21:07] actually step back and you peel it back [21:09] it's really not just pain it's the [21:12] business problem the impact on the [21:14] organization and what you just described [21:16] is the root cause and when somebody can [21:18] actually say oh here's the problem [21:21] here's how it's impacting i can see how [21:22] it's impacting you boom boom boom boom [21:24] and this is why it's impacting you boom [21:26] boom boom in their words in their in [21:28] their you know their lexicon [21:30] that you're right then they just hug you [21:32] squeeze you and you're invaluable [21:33] because like a doctor they finally say [21:36] oh you get it you can help me [21:40] so i love this i use it in my book uh um [21:42] for you know for people watching along [21:45] there by the way there's a variety of [21:46] people watching this some of them are [21:47] going this is [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] astrophysics like [21:50] i cannot [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] i have features and i have [21:52] benefits yeah what are these dudes [21:54] talking about but that's fine you'll get [21:55] there the reason you're saying that is [21:56] because you're nine years old [21:58] okay or you won't let go or you won't [22:01] change you don't see value and changes [22:02] you're going to have [22:03] right then there's other guys going yeah [22:06] they work in a vertical like mortgages [22:08] that's all they do so you know you and i [22:10] and a lot of other people have to sell [22:12] horizontal yep so guys walk in and [22:14] they're in a logistics business then [22:15] another guy sells airplanes then another [22:18] guy you know [22:19] has machines that make this yeah and [22:21] then another guy sells coffee and then [22:23] another guy does rocket engines right so [22:25] we have the problem that a lot a lot of [22:27] people do is our customers are abroad so [22:29] the mortgage guys are going yeah we talk [22:31] to our customers straight up about all [22:33] this yeah we'll forget you guys go [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [22:35] yourself like you're in an easy business [22:37] okay [22:37] what's funny is i can even take a [22:39] mortgage broker and i can show them how [22:41] little they know about their customers [22:42] as well well that that's good i mean [22:43] because it's 2021 and there's eight [22:45] trillion dollars extra in the economy [22:47] and you know everybody who couldn't buy [22:48] a 220 000 house now is buying a four [22:51] million dollar house but anyway um [22:55] but but i think the um [22:59] when [23:00] you [23:01] can when you can talk to someone about [23:03] what you're seeing in their business and [23:05] like you said the root cause and say way [23:08] down here at the bottom of the [23:09] spreadsheet [23:10] where there's cells and there's numbers [23:12] and things multiply [23:14] themselves and i'm looking down there [23:16] and i've seen this a couple times and it [23:18] feels like [23:19] the problem is here [23:21] giving an example from from my [23:22] perspective i love an example from yours [23:25] so uh companies trying to raise money [23:27] and you know they're out and trying to [23:29] raise 20 million dollars and you know [23:31] the offers they're getting are 10 [23:32] million so we'll look at the spreadsheet [23:34] and we'll go well the problems way down [23:37] here like these assumptions that you're [23:38] making have never been met before by any [23:41] company ever like facebook the fastest [23:44] growing highest valued fastest largest [23:47] ipo [23:48] anomalies [23:50] in human history in business didn't get [23:53] a tenth of these numbers but you [23:55] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] face and dumb stick here [23:58] sorry peoples and butthead [24:00] are are going to [24:02] get better results with five people you [24:04] know than facebook had when they had 500 [24:07] people and we're the most highly valued [24:08] company in the world so it [24:11] if we can normalize these assumptions [24:14] value's going to pop up and people will [24:16] will see you uh [24:18] more respectfully in the financial [24:19] markets so what is your in in sales [24:23] what is your version of sort of getting [24:26] inside of what somebody's doing [24:28] highlighting the root problem in a way [24:30] that they go huh [24:32] i like the way you think either yeah we [24:34] kind of knew that but hardly anybody [24:36] talks in those terms that's just how we [24:38] talk to each other way down in [24:39] engineering or [24:41] we don't even think of that i like where [24:43] you're going [24:44] uh [24:45] you understand our business so can you [24:46] give an example of that like happening [24:48] in in rio on your side yeah i'm gonna [24:51] i'm gonna i'm gonna do real on my side [24:53] i'm gonna do real on your side i'm gonna [24:54] play this stuff sucker live so i'm i'm i [24:57] you just explained the situation right [24:59] so i'm in that same situation what i'm [25:01] going to say is i'm going to say all [25:02] right look um [25:03] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] stick and whatever this other [25:04] juicing was right listen i hear you're [25:07] frustrated that you're not getting the [25:09] 20 million dollar um valuation i think [25:11] what valuations you want i think it was [25:12] or the cash came up yeah yeah [25:14] 20 minute valuation you want right oh [25:16] cash you're not getting the 20 million [25:17] in cash you only getting 10 million [25:18] offers and that's frustrating am i [25:19] getting that correct yes um listen i was [25:21] looking through your your finances here [25:23] and way down here i'm looking at these [25:24] assumptions for growth from look at [25:26] these assumptions for cash we'll just go [25:27] with growth for growth right [25:29] um i see that this is at this rate can [25:32] you walk me through [25:34] how you came to those assumptions [25:37] and i shut up see one of the things that [25:39] makes gap selling so powerful is i i ask [25:43] i teach people to ask questions [25:46] that i know [25:47] that will drive me to the problem or [25:49] that i know can highlight or open up the [25:53] the robe right [25:55] and get them uncovering for themselves [25:57] so as they give me as i listen very [25:59] intently to how they come up with those [26:01] assumptions i can say okay i follow your [26:03] logic but let me ask you this question [26:05] are you aware that facebook has never [26:07] never hit those are you aware that [26:09] google never thought are you aware that [26:11] the assumptions you're driving to no [26:12] one's ever hit [26:14] so this is really interesting and we're [26:15] going to if you don't mind we can just [26:16] pause here and dig in a little bit yeah [26:19] i [26:19] and it could be me and you could happily [26:21] be you know unpaid therapy for me i'm [26:23] happy to take the therapy back i am [26:25] always terrified [26:28] that when i say things when i ask [26:30] discovery questions or or pointed [26:33] questions like that that are leading the [26:36] kinds of guys that i work with feel like [26:39] i'm back in the corner and they feel [26:40] like it's a little bit cheesy in the in [26:43] the phraseology because i work with cfos [26:46] and ceos and i'm always afraid they're [26:47] rolling my eyes when i go are you aware [26:50] and [26:51] right [26:53] and the likely answer is yes no okay but [26:55] notice the difference in the questions [26:57] or i love this is probably gonna be the [26:58] best part of the whole show your [26:59] question are you aware is is a horrible [27:03] question and i don't no no i call those [27:05] self-diagnosing questions notice the [27:08] question i asked could you walk me [27:10] through [27:11] your assumptions and how you built them [27:15] one is an understanding question to [27:17] understand the other one is a defensive [27:19] question to make you defend [27:21] so there's a big difference so i agree [27:23] but some of the other ques but it's [27:24] sticking on that one i'm always afraid [27:27] when i ask a ceo cfo chief marketing you [27:30] know somebody see even if it's a small [27:32] company seven person company and i go [27:34] walk me through [27:36] uh how you built these assumptions yep [27:38] yep [27:39] um [27:40] and no i'm gonna [27:42] have a fair question by the way are you [27:44] listening and you think i'm pushing back [27:45] on that i'm not i would ask that all day [27:47] long walk me through [27:49] well i would ask you differently that's [27:50] fine but the bottom line is i want to [27:51] understand that's a question i would ask [27:53] yeah i would say i'm sorry like i'm [27:56] scratching my ass right here [27:58] i'm looking at this and i can't pattern [28:00] match to anything that makes sense in [28:02] human history walking through [28:05] what like where what mckinsey white [28:08] paper [28:08] 21 year old first job after stanford [28:11] came up with this stuff because [28:14] give me their number i want to call [28:15] those guys tell them never to talk to [28:16] you again like where is this coming from [28:18] so i [28:20] would just that style that's your style [28:23] but i agree with the question where is [28:24] this coming from yep yep okay [28:27] uh [28:28] so give me some of the other sort of um [28:30] here's the key piece but this is the [28:32] really key piece orin my next question [28:34] is going to literally be based on what [28:36] they tell me [28:38] and [28:39] and i have more examples tons of [28:41] examples is once people start telling [28:43] you how they come up with them i listed [28:45] very intently and then i asked the next [28:46] question okay did you consider i'm [28:49] making this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up now we're going to [28:50] go off on a random but did you consider [28:51] in these numbers that the current um [28:55] growth rate in new accounting business [28:58] new [28:59] accounting organizations only two [29:01] percent were you aware of that right or [29:02] did you know did you take into [29:04] consideration that now what do they [29:05] think they're going to say no we didn't [29:07] i got you so i take my knowledge and i [29:10] ask questions to see where their [29:12] knowledge is and that's how the gap [29:14] starts to be defined so then once they [29:16] this is the key piece horn and it's [29:17] really hard for people and i love your [29:19] concept about it's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] uh what you [29:21] call it um [29:23] rocket science or something but once [29:25] they figured out it's brilliant is i [29:27] then use your words your statement your [29:32] assessments to my questions [29:35] to guide you and show you where you [29:36] messed up and then they come back and [29:38] can't get mad at me because like you [29:39] said it not me you said it [29:42] so i is the risk there that somebody [29:45] goes [29:46] well keenan i'm looking at my notes here [29:49] you said you wanted a minivan that was [29:52] red you had to get it in below 35 [29:54] thousand dollars you wanted your family [29:56] to be safe uh you wanted to buy it [29:58] before the weekend is all that correct [30:00] no that's what you're saying because [30:02] how do people not step into that i feel [30:05] like it's close it's close it's close [30:07] because it's all nuanced because notice [30:09] what you said here orange you said you [30:10] needed if you do a proper gap selling [30:12] you don't say you need it what you end [30:14] up having the person say is i'm [30:16] concerned about the safety of my kids [30:17] i've had this is my second kid my dad [30:20] got in a really bad car accident and and [30:22] one of my sisters is permanently injured [30:24] i'm afraid of that for me the second one [30:26] is we drive a lot to the mountains to go [30:28] skiing every weekend so that's a long [30:31] drive and it's stuck in traffic my kids [30:33] start throwing things around they're [30:35] throwing food on the floor they're not [30:36] entertained that's just too so what [30:38] happens is you don't say you said you [30:39] needed you said you needed what i say is [30:41] this is what i recommend i recommend [30:44] this because you said you're afraid of [30:47] this i recommend this car with these [30:48] features now they can't argue it's not [30:51] you said you needed i'm literally [30:53] customizing [30:54] my recommendation to you on the problems [30:57] you stated it's very different we're in [31:00] a hundred percent agreement what [31:03] the the language and the recommendation [31:06] and the ideas not only have to be [31:08] original not only have to solve a [31:10] problem they either have or think they [31:13] might have they have to be in terms in [31:16] specifics in language [31:18] that they can relate to in their own [31:20] business otherwise they're just going to [31:21] wonder [31:22] if you can it all sounds good right but [31:26] what's going to happen is they're going [31:27] to move a bunch of money over to your [31:29] account and then they're going to be [31:30] waiting for the results and there's a [31:31] certainty gap [31:33] uh and so unless you can speak to them [31:36] at the at the bottom of the spreadsheet [31:38] so so if you think about it when you go [31:40] into raise money right it sounds like [31:42] you're very familiar with this if it's [31:44] top down hey it's a big market if we [31:46] only sell 2.001 percent of the market [31:50] uh you know we'll have a hundred [31:51] thousand customers at five thousand [31:53] dollars and we'll be profitable in the [31:54] first six months [31:56] like the if that's a top-down approach [32:00] which is on macros it all sounds good [32:03] but unless you can show someone [32:06] what you're spending for adwords what [32:08] your conversion rate is what your long [32:11] tail is the details [32:13] underneath the use you know that the um [32:16] the use of that money and that makes [32:18] sense [32:19] then you'll close the certainty gap so i [32:21] think we totally agree i would do [32:23] different you know what i would do in [32:24] addition like i feel blessed that well [32:26] possibly industry i mean there's really [32:28] not much for capital out that i prefer [32:29] to raise so i'm doing it all myself i [32:32] mean we're organically grown but if i [32:34] was in a position to actually be a [32:35] consultant for someone to raising money [32:37] or i had to go and raise my own [32:38] everything you said is spot on i would [32:40] do that but i would add one additional [32:41] component once i got somebody interested [32:44] in me and they were talking about me or [32:46] once i was reaching out to get somebody [32:48] interested in me i would have a [32:49] conversation around their current thesis [32:51] their current portfolio where the money [32:54] is invested and i would try to see where [32:56] i am a fit inside that to close a gap in [33:00] other words no pun intended here's your [33:02] portfolio here's what's not performing [33:03] or here's where your market you're [33:04] missing that you're trying to fill and i [33:06] would that would be the problem like [33:07] you're not getting revenue from this [33:09] space you're not getting this type of [33:10] return you're not getting this i am that [33:13] solution not you're giving me [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [33:15] money i am a solution to a hole in your [33:19] portfolio and that's why we need to be [33:21] talking 95 percent the additional five [33:24] percent is that's why we need to be [33:26] talking but as much as i'm a value as [33:28] you're evaluating me for your portfolio [33:30] yep [33:31] i have to evaluate you because i'm [33:33] seeing a bunch of singles and we ain't a [33:35] single [33:37] and so i'm very interested because [33:39] you're in the space you cover the space [33:41] you have a thesis in the space you [33:43] deployed capital in space you have a [33:44] capital overhang in the space you're [33:45] public blocking the space you've got [33:47] some decent companies [33:50] but i'm worried about a few things your [33:52] last your last fund performed only at [33:54] seven percent so many institutional [33:56] investors are a little creepy about this [33:57] next fund this has to perform i noticed [34:00] the new fund is only investing in these [34:02] particular areas let's say an ai we're [34:04] attacking this area of a.i which is a [34:06] lot larger we understand it's a lot [34:07] riskier but do i think this will close [34:09] the gap it's literally it get look what [34:11] people are in the end of this it's not [34:13] rocket science it's do you know what the [34:15] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] is keeping these people up at night [34:17] do you know why they're frustrated do [34:19] you know what they're concerned about [34:20] and how do you plug the hole it's that [34:23] simple and you cannot plug the hole [34:24] until you know it's how big it is what [34:27] shape it is what the force is on the [34:28] other side of the whole line once you [34:30] know all of that you can calmly walk in [34:32] and say i am your savior here is why [34:34] i'll prove to you i can do it now shut [34:36] up let's close the deal [34:39] i'm looking at my show notes here [34:41] it says right here argue with kenan [34:43] but i'm just not i'm can't find the [34:46] right thing to argue with you about all [34:47] right so uh no i'm in agreement that's [34:50] very good [34:52] like insult him [34:54] that's okay people want to i make myself [34:56] a target and dude i'm sure i've cost [34:58] myself millions of dollars because of my [35:00] persona but i spend more time on my on [35:02] my craft and on what it means to sell [35:05] and i'll go toe-to-toe with any person [35:07] walking this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] planet how to do [35:08] this and if you don't like my [35:09] personality because i'm not in the blue [35:10] suit and khakis i don't give a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] but [35:12] i will crush you at the level of how to [35:14] sell what it takes what it's about [35:16] what's the underlying psychology is and [35:18] that's all i care about my product so i [35:20] love that we're enjoying this yeah no [35:22] it's so it's a million percent i mean i [35:24] think [35:25] uh [35:26] this is a good testament to [35:28] you can have all these social layers on [35:30] top of you that are optics that are [35:33] theoretical that are strategic you can [35:35] be from stanford or yale or dartmouth uh [35:39] you can have been at facebook and google [35:41] and everything in some ways i think uh [35:44] those are almost negatives because they [35:46] can get you in the door a little bit [35:47] easier but today it's very easy to get [35:49] in if you can't get in a door yeah [35:50] something happened amen um like i guess [35:53] you don't have a linkedin account but [35:54] right [35:55] um [35:56] you don't have the internet [35:58] yeah right right yeah you're in belgium [36:01] west congo but not in the good part [36:03] right [36:04] now exactly exactly where are you [36:06] calling in from oh i am in belgium west [36:08] congo [36:09] okay [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] will call me when you [36:11] move to a city yeah i'll help you out [36:13] all right so [36:14] where was i [36:17] um you can go to facebook and go to [36:18] stanford you can go to it yeah yeah yeah [36:20] so so in some ways you're sort of [36:22] setting yourself up for failure because [36:24] anybody can get in the door and now [36:26] they're projecting on you all the things [36:28] they have in their mind about those [36:30] social layers and it's very easy to [36:31] disappoint people about how [36:34] you should behave uh you know from [36:37] stanford and the reality is if you can [36:40] get in and talk to them in their [36:43] language [36:45] you have insight on the problems they [36:47] have you've solved this problem [36:50] uh uh [36:51] and i would add this [36:54] if if they believe [36:56] so i don't believe in lighting things on [36:58] fire and then squirting and then selling [37:00] them fire extinguishers [37:02] but if they do if you can lead them to [37:04] understand that their problem they have [37:06] in like things are changing faster than [37:08] they think [37:10] yes yes they have their problem yes in a [37:13] worse way than they probably think [37:15] because of the external changes [37:17] that's not something you control you [37:19] know winter is coming [37:21] faster [37:22] and more furiously than maybe they can [37:24] see yep and help them see some of the [37:27] changes that are happening uh and that [37:29] they're in the edge of their problem [37:32] being kind of irrecoverable yep [37:35] because this is where i wanted to go [37:36] next is it doesn't really matter what [37:39] your background is if you have insight [37:42] if you can speak in your language and [37:43] insight how they're going to get [37:45] pressure [37:47] externally [37:49] and then you are positioned at somebody [37:51] who works you know a mile down the road [37:54] in this problem [37:56] and can provide them some insight on [37:58] what is going to have very likely happen [38:00] them next then and and here's my [38:02] question [38:03] what i like to do then is raise the [38:05] stakes [38:07] to you are on the forefront of this [38:09] problem to where winners and losers are [38:12] switching places [38:14] if you get this problem much worse than [38:16] you have it i'm not even interested in [38:18] it [38:20] you're you go to upwork and type in i'm [38:23] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [38:24] who can solve you know this for me [38:27] but i'm not doing it because i'll tell [38:29] you why people come uh give you a real [38:31] example in our business people have gone [38:33] out and trying to raise money everywhere [38:35] so they put out a pitch with numbers [38:38] with a strategy with a deck and they [38:40] haven't hit their numbers uh competition [38:42] can do what they do very easily and [38:43] they've pivoted two or three times then [38:45] they come to us and say we can't raise [38:47] any money i'm like i don't know you peed [38:49] in every single pool in the neighborhood [38:51] where would you like me to take you [38:52] swimming [38:54] right yeah yeah i go listen there's one [38:56] thin channel i could take you to geneva [38:58] a third of the world's wealth is in the [39:00] private offices in geneva they don't [39:02] speak english very well there we could [39:04] take you there but you pee in that [39:05] that's the last pool that you can swim [39:07] in [39:08] pee in that pool right and it's a big [39:11] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] sandwich we're all going to take a [39:12] bite so um [39:15] so i i like to raise the stakes honestly [39:18] in saying you're at the edge of where [39:20] this is just [39:22] um too problematic for me to deal with [39:26] how do you [39:27] think about raising the stakes so [39:30] there's just a fork in the road and um [39:32] my visual is if you think about the 80s [39:34] video games where you know they weren't [39:36] very sophisticated you don't have like [39:37] socom when you're running [39:38] the multiverse you were basically going [39:40] one direction defender coming at you the [39:43] other direct defender right and you all [39:44] you could move up and down and maybe [39:46] back a little a little bit but things [39:48] were coming at you so fast you had to [39:50] make decisions [39:52] uh and so i like to build that scenario [39:54] where things are coming at them and it's [39:56] a fork in the road and but they're not [39:58] sitting there going to send us a [39:59] proposal we have to think about it we'll [40:01] go to committee [40:02] we will talk to the loch ness monster [40:04] and see what she thinks they it's like [40:07] hey it's a forking road i don't care [40:09] but you got to take it [40:11] um [40:12] how [40:13] so it sounds like you understand where [40:14] i'm going with this but how do you raise [40:16] the stakes and then and then um present [40:19] that fork in the road [40:21] so the way i do it is again very similar [40:23] to when i played with you before and the [40:24] key is and look you're going to see i [40:26] keep coming to these same things i don't [40:27] just spout the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] and then go off on [40:29] some tandem it always comes back to [40:30] these three key elements i don't know i [40:32] think you meant i don't spout some [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [40:34] go off on a tangent like you do [40:39] if that's how you're feeling you know i [40:41] mean look [40:42] you can check your feeling you might [40:43] want to explore that i have no problem [40:46] with it at the present time right it's a [40:48] good interview right so it comes down to [40:50] the business problem yeah the impact the [40:53] root cause and so this is how i handle [40:54] this right yeah we call it expanding the [40:56] gap so a customer will come to us and [40:58] first say i need they'll tell you what [40:59] the problem is in their world that's a [41:01] need nine out of 10 times to say i need [41:03] this sure i need accounting software yes [41:05] right that um is less likely to trigger [41:08] an audit we got audited last year yes [41:10] yes quickbooks anymore we need some kind [41:12] of fancy sas yes so i'll say okay great [41:15] so i'll say tell me about the audit [41:17] right and they'll start telling me how [41:18] to say how much did it cost you how long [41:20] did it take i'll find out that they got [41:22] fined [41:23] 250 000 now that you asked it was 232 [41:27] 000 oh i'm sorry tmi tmi yeah right yeah [41:31] so i'll find out how much they will find [41:33] and what i'll do is they'll ask [41:34] questions to quantify the business [41:36] problem right then i'll find out what [41:38] the impact of the organization was but [41:39] then i'll say well wait a minute are you [41:40] in compliance now [41:43] because at the time they're thinking [41:44] about the problem like but are you now [41:45] that you've gone through all the are you [41:46] in compliance now they'll say yes then [41:48] i'll say yes then i'll say how are you [41:51] staying watch what i do here oren [41:53] how are you in compliance now [41:55] if using the same system if you weren't [41:58] before what have you changed [42:01] right and then they'll say well we added [42:02] six people to it we did this and okay [42:04] it's great how much more is that costing [42:06] you to stay in compliance do you see [42:08] what i'm doing here i'm digging into the [42:11] world and i'm digging into what the [42:12] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] when using my logic that says if [42:15] you got if you were out of compliance [42:17] and you paid a fine and you're still in [42:18] the same system my gut's telling me if [42:20] you're not in compliance you're about to [42:22] be out of compliance any [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] minute [42:24] so why are we [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] around right so [42:26] once i get all of that on the table then [42:29] i start saying what is the cost of being [42:31] out of compliance twice because my brain [42:33] is telling me you can't keep me out of [42:35] compliance and they don't give you the [42:36] same fine and i get them like oh [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [42:38] it's half a million that's how i broaden [42:40] the gap right [42:41] and then what i do is i say okay now [42:44] that we're here [42:46] this is how we can fix it for you when i [42:48] put in the whole oh and i get to the [42:49] root causes and i don't believe that [42:51] root cause is this this this is what's [42:52] causing this what's causing this what's [42:53] causing it the minute they give me the [42:55] root causes there is my conduit my road [42:58] my highway to be like well i can fix [43:00] that and right and i even throw some [43:02] more are you doing this is oh yeah [43:03] that's also the reason this is happening [43:06] i really get them to realize so this cat [43:07] knows what's going on so when i finally [43:09] come in and say [43:10] we can fix this this is how we'll [43:12] address root cause number one which [43:14] downstream makes that go away like i'm [43:16] gonna put the battery in your car is [43:18] gonna start you're gonna get to work on [43:20] time the second thing we're gonna do is [43:21] we're going to give you a little um you [43:24] know a little plug to plug in to make [43:25] sure on those really cold days the [43:26] battery doesn't get cold so because you [43:28] said we when the battery works you're in [43:30] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] wisconsin it's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] freezing [43:31] doesn't start it so i'm going to solve [43:33] that so you won't be late again now [43:34] because you weren't late for three [43:36] months in a row you'll actually be back [43:38] up for the promotion that you didn't get [43:41] before you see what i'm saying and so by [43:43] the time i'm done they're like oh my god [43:45] hurry up how do we get this happening [43:47] and here's the key piece and you'll love [43:48] this [43:49] when two weeks three weeks go by big i [43:51] need to talk to so and so when i need to [43:53] do this and i need to do that i actually [43:54] had a conversation just this morning on [43:55] our sales team call [43:57] i say okay take your time but my [43:58] question is this [44:00] you're on the edge of being out of [44:02] compliance [44:03] we already talked about that this takes [44:05] 500 you're going to cost you another 500 [44:07] 000 in this i'm very concerned about the [44:10] length of time this is taking you in the [44:11] exposure it's putting you in what can i [44:14] do [44:16] can you [44:17] hang on a second i have to do something [44:18] administratively yeah [44:20] daniel uh block keenan's number we're [44:22] gonna own accounting software by the end [44:24] of the day uh this is block his number [44:26] this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] here sorry yeah where [44:28] were we yeah yeah [44:31] i [44:31] so that's how you raise the stakes is [44:34] i'm very concerned yeah as this [44:36] continues yep and then fill in [44:40] what they told you their unique specific [44:43] one-of-a-kind situation because that's [44:45] what a lot of salespeople miss and i [44:46] know you love this when you read the [44:47] book or if you go to the average [44:49] salesperson crm and you read six [44:51] different opportunities they all sound [44:53] exactly the same and that freaking say [44:55] this person could not tell you which [44:57] account it was right [44:59] but yet they're all different like if [45:01] you dig in this one's losing two grand a [45:03] month this one's losing 100 grand this [45:04] one's got paid out of compliance this [45:05] one but they don't know but where do [45:07] people die in discovery in your mind [45:10] i have a very [45:13] particular view on this [45:14] which i've voiced many many times but [45:16] i'm very interested where [45:18] do the guys that you're training when [45:20] you look at them where are they they [45:22] they know to do discovery because [45:23] they've been told to do discovery [45:26] uh [45:28] where are they and and you know again [45:30] this isn't like the [45:32] uh slimy salesperson that just wants a [45:35] quick commission uh they're they believe [45:37] in their product they know their why [45:39] they know their companies why they [45:41] they're you know on top of things and [45:42] they're [45:43] well-meaning [45:45] and then they start to go into discovery [45:47] where does discovery [45:49] get off the tracks what they're out to [45:51] do discovery to get them to give them [45:53] one or two things max that the oh i can [45:55] fix that [45:56] right they don't actually go in to [45:58] understand the business and the nuances [46:01] and they find a pain versus oh here's [46:04] the problem but what's the impact of the [46:06] problem and uh okay now i understand the [46:08] impact but what's causing it they don't [46:10] get those things and they do a lot of [46:12] self-diagnosis they say things like um [46:14] you know if you could you know you said [46:16] it takes you too long to run reports if [46:18] you if we could do those reports in a [46:20] day would that interest you like their [46:23] their their discoveries quickly move to [46:25] product discoveries how can i get my [46:28] product into your business focus on that [46:30] one because i think a lot of people [46:32] right now are saying [46:34] well i ask that [46:36] right if i could run these reports [46:38] faster in a day [46:40] and they uh if they were faster and gave [46:43] you more insight into your data is that [46:46] something you'd be interested in yeah [46:48] that's an awful question it's awful [46:49] discovery one it's sleazy and smarmy and [46:52] they see where it's coming too [46:53] what's the [46:55] you have what's the [46:56] sleaziness behind yeah because because [46:58] you're not you don't care to understand [47:00] their world right think about like just [47:02] flip it take an extra second think i [47:04] always say you're leaving meat on the [47:05] bone so they told you it takes too too [47:07] long to do reports first off what's too [47:09] long how long does it take you to [47:11] because you can't build the gap how long [47:12] does it take you to run reports well one [47:14] company could say four hours one could [47:16] say six one could be an hour you take 50 [47:18] minutes why is an hour too long in your [47:20] business right number two what are you [47:22] running reports on number three with [47:25] that data what are you doing with the [47:27] data [47:27] on the company number four from that [47:30] data if it's not good data it takes too [47:31] long how is it negatively affected the [47:33] company like dude are you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [47:35] kidding me like if you give me all of [47:37] that information i can tell you what i [47:39] can do right away i will walk away and [47:40] not spend another time with you because [47:42] i can't fix it and it's not gonna get [47:43] stuck in my pipeline or two i will have [47:45] you literally eating out of the palm of [47:46] my hands to solve that problem yesterday [47:48] because now i know how big the problem [47:50] is how it's affected your business what [47:51] the root causes are why it's costing you [47:54] i own you and how i can fix it i own you [47:57] so when the typical salesperson says [47:59] says well tell me about reports oh it [48:00] takes too long it's frustrating and they [48:02] say well if we could do this i get [48:05] way much more information and i slay you [48:09] a million percent i think when somebody [48:10] asks me those questions and say hey you [48:12] know if you could get reports that could [48:13] visualize your data more deeply and [48:15] you'll be able to get more insights [48:17] maybe make better decisions about your [48:18] business uh is that something you would [48:20] want [48:22] right [48:23] and and so i just think like hey [48:25] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you don't know that [48:27] it's annoying like if you don't know [48:30] my business well enough as to what ins [48:33] the kind of business well how did you [48:36] get here [48:37] go back to where you came from amen i [48:39] don't know who let you in here [48:41] but [48:42] you came into the wrong door [48:44] right and and [48:46] because [48:48] my sense is [48:50] from for most of people we're talking to [48:52] they know [48:54] nine out of ten scenarios if you've been [48:56] in a company for two years you know nine [48:58] out of ten scenarios that you're co your [49:00] clients are facing and you don't [49:02] actually need to do this much discovery [49:05] there should be [49:06] in my mind in almost all the businesses [49:09] i've seen like two or three data points [49:11] that let you do a big [49:14] leap forward in discovery [49:17] right but how much money [49:19] when do you need it what do you want to [49:21] use it for run it down [49:23] okay i'm going to give you a chance for [49:24] you and i to argue yeah here's what i [49:26] think i'm not sure we agree so watch [49:28] this we're going to do something [49:29] everybody can follow really quickly i [49:30] use this example all the time about you [49:32] just been diagnosed with a terminal [49:34] brain can cancer you've got six months [49:36] to live but i happen to sell the only [49:37] pill on the planet that'll save your [49:38] life right and what i try to say to [49:40] people is it seems obvious like oh [49:42] someone and it costs a million dollars [49:43] it seems obviously everybody's gonna pay [49:45] a million dollars i'm gonna survive what [49:47] i walk through is this [49:48] um well let's just say one guy or girl [49:51] is 35 years old and they just got [49:53] engaged they want children they're not [49:55] married yet their parents are still [49:57] alive but not much longer and uh they [50:00] want to come to the wedding the person [50:01] has a phenomenal job and uh [50:04] that's one scenario right another [50:06] scenario is the person is 92 years old [50:08] they haven't seen their their their [50:10] children a long time they've outlived [50:11] two of their children um one doesn't [50:13] come anymore they don't see their [50:14] great-great-grandchildren and they spend [50:16] their day staring at a stupid um [50:18] television all day another scenario is a [50:20] 65-year-old guy who's just recently [50:22] divorced [50:23] he's miserable his kids hate him like do [50:26] you know how many individual scenarios i [50:28] could paint for you oren that would [50:30] impact somebody's decision to buy that [50:32] pill [50:33] and that is the power [50:36] of the gap is i don't assume all that [50:38] because i could probably take two [50:40] companies look identical and pull you so [50:42] far apart that you thought you were both [50:44] buying for the same reason but they're [50:45] entirely different reasons and my [50:47] ability to understand those unique [50:48] reasons is why i win okay [50:51] two things one is this is what i call [50:52] the dan ariely [50:55] phenomenon you have all these fancy [50:56] names for [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] that i just [50:58] call it what it is when you have a low [50:59] intellect you have to come up with names [51:01] for stuff that sounds intriguing so [51:03] check it out dan ariely you know good [51:05] guy communicate with him but basically [51:08] he takes 12 [51:09] you know usc modern day [51:12] graduated usc [51:14] college students with you know 142 iqs [51:17] and 4.0 grade point averages in high [51:20] school that you know are white one black [51:22] dude and one chinese chick right and he [51:24] puts them in a room and he gives gives [51:26] them all coffee cups and half of when he [51:27] allows to write their name on the coffee [51:30] cup and the other half [51:31] you know name of a random person is [51:33] printed on it they let some drink coffee [51:35] on it they have lots of engaging [51:36] conversation and comes back around says [51:37] hey i want to buy your coffee cup back [51:38] for you and then you know the the guys [51:40] didn't have their name on it just you [51:42] know give them back like hey 25 cents is [51:44] that too much and people wrote their [51:45] name on it they're like hey i wouldn't [51:46] sell it to you for five bucks [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] off [51:47] dan ariely and so the conclusion is blah [51:50] blah blah so that's what your example is [51:52] right hi [51:53] i gave a real world example guys walk in [51:56] and they go hey i need 20 million [51:58] dollars [51:59] uh [52:00] um for what [52:02] how fast you need it [52:04] what's the use of funds [52:06] right and and and what's your valuation [52:09] based on and what industry are you in [52:10] based on that [52:12] i can go [52:14] and [52:15] do quite a lot of work [52:18] to [52:19] impress them that i'm in their world [52:22] so then i can go in in further discovery [52:25] and extract the meaningful information [52:28] so guys 95 or 35 or 17 or 42 that's that [52:33] you're not extracting information like [52:35] this is this is face value there buyers [52:38] have some [52:39] information that they're protecting [52:41] what's your budget [52:43] the perfect example what's your budget [52:45] um [52:46] you know no matter [52:49] no matter what somebody tells you when [52:50] you ask them about their budget [52:52] let me tell you what they're thinking i [52:53] never asked what the budget is ever ever [52:55] right [52:55] but but you can get to it of course i [52:58] don't care i don't need to get to it [52:59] lauren i don't need to get to it but but [53:01] my point is what's your budget is just [53:03] one of those questions which is like [53:05] when's your drop dead date right when do [53:06] you have to decide who's really the [53:09] ultimate decision maker right at what [53:13] what did the competition price this at [53:15] there's some data [53:16] yeah and that [53:18] and that you know what's so funny [53:20] listen to this though when you go back [53:22] and listen to this i want you to go to [53:23] the piece where you started with whether [53:25] 17 or 19 or 35 whatever right and i have [53:27] to know what how and when right the one [53:30] piece you missed go back in the notice [53:32] you didn't have no why [53:34] and even if somebody is raising money [53:36] there's always a human element orin and [53:39] you i liked this in your book you talked [53:40] about this human element a lot right so [53:42] if i'm a 17 year old right who is the [53:46] coder myself i'm not in for a whole lot [53:48] of money if the thing fails it's going [53:49] to suck but not the end of the world [53:51] that's a very different paradigm that if [53:53] i'm 37 it's my third [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] chant go [53:57] with this i've lost the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [54:00] but did they have to tell you that like [54:02] that's so dead obvious no it's not [54:04] that's the point i'm trying to get to [54:06] the minute i start asking these [54:08] questions i literally will do this and [54:09] be like wait this is your third one let [54:11] me just pretend you haven't let me ask [54:13] you a question you you told me you just [54:14] got married you told me it's your third [54:16] one [54:17] if this doesn't work and you don't get [54:19] this money are you gonna go this again [54:21] or is this your last go at right i [54:23] cannot keep doing this i'm getting [54:24] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] tired i'm gonna yeah okay eps [54:27] driver exactly so how i approach this [54:30] how much discount i can get for you is i [54:33] know i'm dealing with a different [54:34] mindset and what you're willing to work [54:36] with the discard i can get for you the [54:38] the cheating you'll do for me versus the [54:40] guy who's i know 31 it's his first what [54:43] he's got in his wife he's been in his [54:44] basement forever i love it so here [54:45] here's what i'm thinking like this [54:48] what you're getting at because [54:49] originally i didn't fully appreciate [54:51] where you were at with [54:53] why what i think you're getting at is [54:55] the why [54:56] is is the is not the why up here [54:58] floating around that they tell everybody [55:00] that they tell grandma that they yeah [55:02] it's the why that's like on their [55:05] in their dna that's going to work [55:07] to make the decision remember i said [55:09] this in the beginning it's all about [55:11] influence a change or influence is a [55:14] decision so what you just said is that's [55:16] it that why is where the decision comes [55:19] from and if i can't get to that i'm not [55:23] influential [55:24] do i know that i'm there so here here's [55:27] the problem here's here's the orange [55:29] dilemma [55:30] right [55:31] i can do this because it's it's through [55:33] all my experiences i've i've tell you my [55:36] um people heard this a lot you might not [55:38] have might lose the numbers the way i [55:39] got into all this [55:41] and i'll get somewhere with this is i [55:43] was working on a deal my partner's very [55:45] wealthy call my 80 million guy i was a [55:48] zero million dollar guy and i needed [55:49] this deal to close and not be a negative [55:51] zero million dollar guy yeah right we [55:53] were working on for a long time the the [55:55] um so we were the seller the buyers it [55:57] was a uh we were selling an asset and [56:00] the buyers uh were agreeing and they [56:02] were asking for more information and [56:04] they were going to close and then they [56:05] stalled and they wanted another legal [56:07] review and finally my partner sent them [56:10] an email [56:11] and i needed this to close like they [56:12] were in all we had to do was like give [56:14] them more time and answer another couple [56:16] requests and my partner sent him an [56:18] email subject line only lose my number [56:22] all caps [56:23] and i was like okay well i'm need [56:26] someone to live now yeah right [56:29] and and i'm done [56:31] and i'm like russell [56:33] he's like [56:34] don't worry i'm like no i'm worried [56:36] right because in my frame of mind nobody [56:39] in the history of business who ever [56:41] wanted to you know swim with the sharks [56:43] or tom hopkins or do a deal with any [56:45] other company ever sent them an email [56:47] all caps lose my number and then bing [56:50] hey so sorry we can't i'm sorry we were [56:53] so difficult we'll close tomorrow really [56:55] appreciate it thanks for being so [56:57] patient million bucks [56:59] uh it was like a 30 million deal but for [57:02] me [57:03] so so i'm and and that opened my eyes to [57:06] what i'm like what the universe works in [57:09] upside down [57:10] anti-gravity counter factual ways then i [57:13] even begin to understand i started to [57:14] plum and get into this world and open [57:16] the door and everything like that but i [57:18] so i've had these experiences for 20 [57:20] years of those little things ingrained [57:22] so i know [57:23] when somebody is there for me as do you [57:26] and how you've described it how does joe [57:29] bag of donuts [57:32] you know how does somebody new to these [57:34] processes [57:35] know that they're at somebody's [57:39] that they're deep enough that they're at [57:41] the why [57:42] at in their dna how do they know when to [57:45] stop digging for that and that they're [57:47] there and there isn't like [57:49] you you know it intuitively you've been [57:51] doing it since you were six years old [57:54] is there a couple steps somebody can [57:55] take i mean i think that this is [57:57] somewhere where we could really move a [58:00] population of people forward is is yes [58:03] they need to get to the y but how do [58:05] they know that they've got the why [58:08] that matters that's inside the dna [58:12] so [58:13] the way i'm gonna okay [58:15] so i'm gonna try to do this in a in a [58:17] structural way not an intuitive way yeah [58:19] so that's where the concept of the gap [58:22] came up [58:23] right so if i spend enough time getting [58:26] you to tell me where you are today right [58:29] i'm going to die okay great let's just [58:31] do it that the pill eats because it's [58:33] easy everybody understands that right i [58:34] said great well how old are you okay i'm [58:36] 35 are you married i just got recently [58:38] married do you want kids yes what are [58:39] you guys thinking we always talk about [58:40] two or three right okay um you know um [58:43] what do you do for work right i i have a [58:45] great job i love my my wife is just [58:47] started her own business i think it [58:49] could be big so i flush all of this out [58:51] and then i realize okay you have [58:52] terminal brain cancer you have six [58:54] months [58:55] so now the so now what i know is the [58:57] future the current state is you got six [58:59] you're this is you're currently married [59:00] blah blah blah and then the future [59:02] states you want these things okay so now [59:06] if you die in six months you don't get [59:09] those [59:10] there's my gap [59:12] so i can simply now i i sort of know and [59:14] i can simply say so i it's and i know [59:16] it's no one would ever say this but for [59:18] the lesson uh it's fair to say so [59:20] understanding this paul there's really [59:22] nothing that you wouldn't do [59:25] to make sure you walk you first have [59:27] kids walk them walked out like you have [59:29] way tons of life left that you're not [59:31] willing to give up yet do i understand [59:33] that and you measure it because walking [59:35] the kids down the aisle watching [59:36] graduate high school your wife's [59:38] business being successful you getting [59:39] promoted to vp blah blah blah blah blah [59:41] right [59:42] that gap becomes so big [59:45] it the the why is built right into what [59:47] i call the intrinsic motivation it's as [59:49] plain as day but the cool part about it [59:51] on and i'm glad you asked this question [59:53] is most people try to go like here's the [59:55] app they try to go right down the middle [59:56] and grab it you can't do that you can't [59:59] you have to anchor somebody in what's [60:01] going on today you have to anchor them [60:04] in why they don't like it that's the key [60:05] piece why you don't like it today what [60:07] pain is it causing what are the problems [60:09] it's doing how is it impacting you right [60:11] and then why is it happening what's [60:13] going on then it's like okay if we can [60:16] solve this what is it you're looking for [60:18] the outcomes what do you want them to be [60:20] and then it's this big this big this big [60:22] this big this big and it doesn't matter [60:23] once you know the size of it all you [60:25] have to ask yourself is [60:27] is what i'm selling [60:28] worth this [60:30] right that's why i can people say well [60:32] you can't do it on something like a pack [60:33] of gum you bet your ass i can if i find [60:35] out you stopped into my 7-eleven store i [60:37] wouldn't take the time but and i find [60:39] out that you're going on a first date [60:41] and you just ate garlic over lunch and [60:44] you don't have time to go home to brush [60:45] your teeth and you haven't had a date [60:47] and gotten laid in a year and a half i [60:48] could probably charge you twenty dollars [60:50] for that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] gum right now so don't [60:52] tell me i can't do the gap it all comes [60:55] down to the uniqueness of each situation [60:58] if you're just going home and it's an [60:59] hour drive your mouth tastes like yes [61:00] all right here's a doll 50 great but [61:02] it's still the same product every time [61:04] or you see in that it's my unique [61:06] situation of where i am now and where i [61:10] want to go that drives the intrinsic [61:12] motivation and as a salesperson it's [61:14] your job to uncover it and help them see [61:16] it it's the water dispensary machine [61:19] that knows what the temperature is [61:21] outside [61:22] i'll go with that so [61:25] this is awesome uh listen i'm getting [61:27] the hook on time i know yours well we [61:29] didn't get to the new book which is [61:31] really i don't have a new book so i'm [61:32] really curious what my new book is oh i [61:34] don't know um [61:36] was it not [61:37] wait are you jonah burger what's your [61:38] name again [61:41] kyle weather's baby i'm carl what's this [61:43] guy who is this guy damn i wish they [61:45] give me the names of these dudes before [61:46] they come on uh all right well then your [61:48] old last book not talk [61:50] the [61:53] title is [61:54] you didn't write 20 books two i read you [61:57] kept selling and not taught yeah not [61:59] taught i wanted to talk about but we'll [62:01] have to come back to not taught another [62:02] time because [62:03] this was fun we're going to melt [62:05] people's brains uh if we go into not [62:08] taught from gaps this is fantastic i [62:10] really [62:11] want to endorse [62:13] this methodology i think keenan is [62:15] giving it to you straight i think i'm in [62:18] alignment with the things we talked [62:20] about here and [62:22] i think you could [62:24] you know here's what you do um just take [62:26] picture anything rip out a page [62:29] you know and then take gap selling you [62:31] know rip out a page and then make a much [62:33] thicker book and confuse yourself but [62:36] at least we'll have sold two books okay [62:40] all right [62:43] so [62:44] i will see you here next time hang on [62:45] just a minute and i got a quick message [62:48] for people and then we will [62:50] talk for a moment often [62:53] if you're planning to become a deal [62:55] maker at this level make sure to join [62:57] the daily deal maker we get into one [63:00] little piece of this daily and so you're [63:03] just stacking and stacking and stacking [63:04] these tools and tactics and strategies [63:06] until they come out of you as naturally [63:08] as they come out of me and the people [63:10] that i work with add the tips tools [63:12] strategies tactics a little bit every [63:14] day and by the end of a year you'll be a [63:17] totally different new improved person [63:20] and a very strong deal maker [63:25] hey thanks for listening and be sure to [63:27] stay tuned for more great content from [63:29] oren klaff if you want to get daily [63:31] insights and additional assets go to [63:33] orenclap.com [63:35] daily and sign up for a seven-day trial [63:38] of the daily deal maker see you next [63:40] time

===FILE=== JpCOegJGo44 - GAP SELLING 5 Years Later with Keenan The Untold Story.txt
https://youtu.be/JpCOegJGo44
GAP SELLING 5 Years Later with Keenan | The Untold Story
[0:01] Define
[0:03] everything I would say that you are
[0:05] somebody that has and is disrupting the
[0:08] sales
[0:10] industry and this is where I have a dark
[0:12] side this is probably going to ruin my
[0:25] career hey hey people what's going on
[0:27] this is Keenan listen I want to break
[0:28] down something that you people are
[0:30] talking about when it comes to sales
[0:32] guys I love you salese I do I love you
[0:36] most people wouldn't take that job they
[0:38] won't bet on themselves man I've read
[0:42] your pathetic emails I see your pathetic
[0:45] cold call campaign and it makes me want
[0:47] to throw up in my mouth Jill likes to
[0:49] say suck offline you suck online I say
[0:51] suck at sales suck at sales get to the
[0:54] measurables no you can't have 15 minutes
[0:57] of my time get to the fact to hear about
[1:01] the cool features of your little product
[1:05] no you cannot and that's something sales
[1:07] is missing when people bet on themselves
[1:11] they work harder you got to stop there's
[1:13] no safety now this [ __ ] is [ __ ] no
[1:16] one wants it why should I bet on you if
[1:19] you won't bet on you put yourself in the
[1:21] shoes of your buyer bet on yourself is
[1:25] the only way to
[1:28] win
[1:30] take
[1:32] two take two right ladies and gentlemen
[1:36] welcome to another episode of the we
[1:38] have a meeting podcast and boy am I
[1:40] excited for today's episode we have a
[1:43] returning guest and not just any
[1:45] returning guest they were one of the
[1:47] most streamed episodes last year this
[1:49] could be down to their passionate nature
[1:52] the way they disrupt the industry or
[1:54] purely just because they're so lovely
[1:56] Our Guest today is au of the bestselling
[1:59] sales book Gap selling CEO of a sales
[2:02] Growth Company Our Guest today is none
[2:05] other than Kenan Keenan how are you what
[2:08] up baby I'm good I'm good thank you for
[2:10] having me yeah it's always great to have
[2:12] you you always bring the energy whenever
[2:14] it's uh the start of new quarter I like
[2:16] to listen to a podcast or your audio
[2:18] book because it gives me a kick up the
[2:20] ass you're one of those people that your
[2:22] voice your voice gives me a Wellington
[2:24] right on the backside um so we asked you
[2:26] this last time I like and I'm going to
[2:29] ask you again who are you and what
[2:32] problem do you solve oh my God who am i
[2:35] h i just a guy making his way man just
[2:39] like every other person trying to do
[2:42] good by his family by his by his kids
[2:44] for himself and and make the world a
[2:47] better place I mean that's just that I
[2:48] think at the end of day that's what I
[2:49] really want to do just make the world a
[2:51] better place where I'm best equipped to
[2:52] do that uh and then what problems do I
[2:55] solve well as it relates to my business
[2:57] the problems I solve our organizations
[2:59] who are uh struggling with making quota
[3:02] people have long sales Cycles
[3:04] organizations that AR uh have low ASP
[3:07] Andor they have low win rates so from a
[3:09] business perspective those are the types
[3:11] of problems we solve um from a life
[3:13] perspective I'm a guy who who gets
[3:16] people to think about where they are and
[3:18] what they're trying to accomplish and uh
[3:21] gets people who are struggling or aren't
[3:24] even aware I bet people aren't even
[3:25] aware they're not where they want to be
[3:27] I'm the guy that makes you look yourself
[3:28] in the mirror it's a it's a very modest
[3:31] answer I would I would argue that you're
[3:33] not just a guy I would say that you are
[3:35] somebody I know that you have many
[3:36] accolades but I would say that you are
[3:38] somebody that has and is disrupting the
[3:40] sales industry why why so passionate why
[3:44] do you want to get people better isn't
[3:47] that why we're
[3:49] here like like literally isn't that why
[3:51] we're here like we're I'm not a
[3:54] religious man so I need no disrespect to
[3:56] anybody so whatever you why you believe
[3:58] here or what brought you here okay is
[4:00] great but I believe that once you're
[4:02] here everything should be about
[4:04] Improvement because humans are fallible
[4:06] right like because we can think and
[4:08] because we've set up paradigms and and
[4:11] and rules and societies and structures
[4:14] and and expectations because we do that
[4:17] because the animal kingdom can't do that
[4:18] which I think they're lucky because they
[4:20] can't but because we've done that then
[4:22] everything we should do should be
[4:23] improving right we should always be
[4:25] trying to improving and so if you're
[4:28] always trying to improve then you you
[4:31] should be trying to help people improve
[4:33] you should be advancing always advancing
[4:36] now always advancing doesn't mean
[4:37] technology I'm not saying that I'm not
[4:39] saying we just what I am saying is that
[4:41] we should be looking at a problem and
[4:42] ask ourselves is this as good as we can
[4:44] get and if it's not how do we make it
[4:46] better so that's just how I operate it's
[4:48] how I think it's how I process it's
[4:49] everything I do so when it came to
[4:51] selling I started to see a lot of issues
[4:54] particularly from the buyer side buyers
[4:57] don't like sales people buyers are
[4:58] frustrated with sales people buyers
[5:00] can't don't feel they're getting
[5:01] anywhere from salespeople which then
[5:03] translated into pork win rates that
[5:05] translated into organization not making
[5:06] quota which translated into sales po
[5:09] sales te performing po poorly so because
[5:11] of this tension or or this this this
[5:13] situation I was like well this isn't
[5:15] helping anybody buyers aren happppy
[5:17] sellers unhappy so let's [ __ ] fix it
[5:20] and so that's just how I got there I I
[5:22] mean I appreciate you call me modest and
[5:24] it's usually not something that's
[5:25] attached to me but I I don't I don't set
[5:29] out to disrupt for the sake of
[5:31] disruption I just if I see something
[5:34] that can be better and I don't okay this
[5:37] is what I do do I don't believe in in in
[5:40] fences or barriers I don't subscribe to
[5:43] that well this is how it's done so fix
[5:45] it in this this little Corral no [ __ ]
[5:47] you like if if fixing in this Corral
[5:50] doesn't fix it I'm going out like I'm
[5:51] going off the plantation I'm going
[5:53] somewhere else and I'm going to figure
[5:54] it out so that can be disruptive because
[5:57] you don't play by people's rules maybe
[5:59] or or don't meet their expectations but
[6:00] outside of that I don't really think of
[6:02] myself as a quote unquote disruptor or
[6:04] anything like that I just want I just
[6:06] want to make things better I love that I
[6:08] love that it's like if you're not if
[6:09] you're not learning you're not living
[6:11] right and uh beautifully beautifully po
[6:14] it's an everything like it blows my mind
[6:18] and it almost makes me sad how little
[6:21] thought most people put into most things
[6:24] they think surface level one of the ones
[6:27] that that really jumps out there two
[6:29] things that really jump out at me when
[6:30] it comes to people they put so little
[6:31] effort into or thought not effort
[6:33] thought one is parenting and the other
[6:35] one is their their basically their life
[6:37] or their career right they or in in in
[6:41] their relationships marriage they put so
[6:42] little thought into them so because they
[6:44] put so little thought into it they play
[6:46] at surface level emotional reaction
[6:49] situations and therefore they can't be
[6:51] they can't be um proactive they can't be
[6:53] responsive they can't be constructive
[6:56] because everything eventually turns into
[6:58] a reactive [ __ ] show right like and you
[7:01] just watch how kids are being raised
[7:03] today all parents jumped into to
[7:05] Parenting with is I love my child I want
[7:07] to protect my child that's about as far
[7:09] as they go in their head they never stop
[7:11] and think well what does protecting mean
[7:13] what does it mean to love my child what
[7:15] values am I trying to instill how am I
[7:17] instilling those values how am I going
[7:18] to respond to their behavior what am I
[7:20] going to let them get away with how am I
[7:22] triggered by their behaviors what am I
[7:24] doing to make this happen they never ask
[7:25] any of those [ __ ] questions and then
[7:27] they got a kid who's sitting in a
[7:28] [ __ ] restaurant on their goddamn
[7:30] iPhone that never looks up doesn't talk
[7:32] to other adults screams and cries and
[7:34] don't get their way and then they're
[7:35] shocked when that little [ __ ] bag
[7:37] doesn't do anything in their life I I I
[7:40] just the whole thing blows my mind we
[7:41] just same thing with the marriage same
[7:43] thing with their career they get shocked
[7:45] that they're unhappy in their job they
[7:47] get shocked they can't go anywhere else
[7:48] because why they spent all this money
[7:50] buying all this stuff so now they can't
[7:51] leave they get shocked that they're not
[7:52] connecting with their wife because
[7:54] people don't think and don't build a
[7:57] foundation and then from that found
[7:59] Foundation they don't know how to
[8:00] process to get where they want to go
[8:02] they just react blows my mind Jack's
[8:05] weeks away from welcoming his first
[8:07] child into the world so it might have
[8:08] been a
[8:09] timely a timely timely thing to put the
[8:12] iPad down put the IP down keep that in
[8:15] mind um so am I right in thinking Gap
[8:19] s's just turned five have I got my math
[8:21] right yeah yeah you right so if you were
[8:25] looking back now and you could write the
[8:27] book again is there any chapters that
[8:30] you'd add based on the five years
[8:32] knowledge with it being out anything
[8:34] you'd add and why would you add that um
[8:36] I think there's two things I would do
[8:38] one is kind of small but powerful and I
[8:42] will I keep saying I'm going to write a
[8:43] revision I'm sure I will one of these
[8:44] days I just don't I hate doing things
[8:46] over I rather just redo them rather than
[8:47] do them you know than change them but
[8:49] anyways um and that is risk-based
[8:51] selling so you guys understand the
[8:54] concept of of Gap selling you have to
[8:55] find a problem right a problem that
[8:58] exists and then how that problem impacts
[9:00] the organization the whole current state
[9:01] piece right well after I wrote the book
[9:04] we started training we found out there's
[9:05] a small handful of industries that
[9:07] problems don't exist their whole
[9:09] existence is about either um minimizing
[9:13] the impact of the problem or preventing
[9:14] the problem right so actually no problem
[9:17] exists so cyber security is an example
[9:19] of that insurance is an example of that
[9:21] so you can't go if you sell cyber
[9:23] security you can't go into most your
[9:25] customers say oh are you currently
[9:27] having a Cyber attack right or did you
[9:29] just have a separate check those are so
[9:31] few and far between then 80% 95% of your
[9:34] customer base hasn't had one and you're
[9:36] trying to convince them that they're at
[9:38] risk of having one and need to buy your
[9:40] service you see what I'm saying to
[9:42] prevent that from happening so we
[9:45] created what we call a risk-based
[9:46] selling Matrix which helps organizations
[9:49] like that uh assess or measure the risk
[9:54] and find out where the buyer is and I
[9:56] won't buil you with it too much but it's
[9:57] a four quadrant Matrix that prob IL is
[9:59] on one side impact should the thing
[10:01] happen and the idea is if the impact
[10:04] isn't super high and the probability of
[10:05] it happening isn't super high you'll
[10:07] never sell them and so as a salesperson
[10:09] you need to understand where is their
[10:11] perception on that Matrix so that you
[10:13] can influence either oh they don't think
[10:15] it's that probable let me get them show
[10:17] see how probable it is or they think
[10:19] it's going to happen but they don't
[10:20] think the impact is going to be that
[10:21] high so let me show them that the impact
[10:24] of this if it happens is massive and
[10:25] they can't afford it to happen so I'd
[10:27] add that and the other thing I would do
[10:29] is I would completely redo the
[10:31] prospecting piece completely redo the
[10:34] prospecting piece because outbound is so
[10:35] [ __ ] up right now and the way I go
[10:38] back and read it now I'm like it's so
[10:39] outdated it's
[10:41] just prospecting is a [ __ ] show so I'd
[10:43] redo that I mean there's some obvious
[10:45] follow-up questions there right You'
[10:47] you've set me up if I'm let's start with
[10:49] the risk-based selling so if I um I'm
[10:54] risk-based selling how hard is it to get
[10:57] someone emotional about problem that
[10:59] doesn't exist what I'm having a
[11:01] discovery call it's very difficult
[11:03] because what what you're trying to do is
[11:05] you're trying to um address their um
[11:08] their perception now I always do this
[11:10] and always pisses people off but that's
[11:12] why I have fun that's probably why I'm
[11:13] considered disruptive I just go to
[11:15] places that people won't go the greatest
[11:17] example I can use not even metaphor but
[11:19] example of this concept of risk-based
[11:21] selling was Co right and if you looked
[11:25] and you had a did a survey of all the
[11:27] people who avoided or did not
[11:29] take the the shot right I could plot
[11:34] them on that four quadrant Matrix and I
[11:37] would
[11:38] say a decent percentage of them were in
[11:40] the bottom left they didn't believe they
[11:42] were going to get it period so that's
[11:44] the low probability right and then if
[11:46] they even did believe they were going to
[11:48] get it they didn't think they were going
[11:49] to die there was nothing it's like just
[11:50] like a cold you see what I'm saying so I
[11:52] could have plotted most of your
[11:54] antivaxers in that bottom left okay you
[11:57] probably then you proba could have
[11:59] plotted a handful of them in the top
[12:01] left like yeah I'm going to get it but
[12:04] it's not going to hurt me at all do you
[12:06] see what I'm saying so that's high
[12:07] probability but low impact it's not
[12:08] going to hurt me so the majority of them
[12:11] you could have plotted in those two left
[12:13] you probably could have plotted a
[12:14] handful in the bottom right where they
[12:17] I'm sorry uh no the yeah I know just the
[12:20] bottom left because because yeah so no
[12:22] there was nobody on the right they
[12:23] either they didn't think it would hurt
[12:24] them or they didn't believe it was real
[12:26] so there's going to be no impact right
[12:27] so they would have been plotted on the
[12:29] bottom left or the top left now those
[12:31] who did get the vaccination the majority
[12:34] of them I could have plotted in the top
[12:36] right right that is I'm gonna get the
[12:39] sucker and if I get it it could really
[12:41] really hurt me those are the people who
[12:43] went and got the the um the jab right so
[12:48] to your question if you had to get more
[12:51] and more people in that top right you
[12:53] had to understand where they were now if
[12:55] they didn't believe it was real you're
[12:57] probably [ __ ] from there because they
[12:58] there's no information you're going to
[13:00] give them to show that it's real but
[13:02] that is one of your objectives you would
[13:04] had to show them or teach them or get
[13:06] them to believe that it's real and that
[13:08] the impact is real so move them on the
[13:10] impact Axis or you had to move them on
[13:13] the probability axis like let me show
[13:15] you how probable you are to get this or
[13:17] the chance of you getting this so that's
[13:19] what you had to do is understand where
[13:20] they were in the plot and then influence
[13:23] either one of those axes right now what
[13:25] I joke about and this really upsets
[13:28] people is I promise you and this is
[13:30] where I have a dark side this is
[13:32] probably going to ruin my career but
[13:33] this is where I have a dark side part of
[13:35] me wants this to happen not really
[13:38] inside just because I just I hate
[13:41] conflict based on ignorance every one of
[13:44] these people who's atie vaxer right if a
[13:48] strain of covid comes out tomorrow with
[13:51] a 98% transmission rate and a 95%
[13:57] mortality rate Within four days but the
[14:01] [ __ ] vaccine keeps you from dying I
[14:02] me not keep you from getting sick but
[14:04] you do not die I promise you that every
[14:07] one of these [ __ ] backers will
[14:09] last about a week and a half before they
[14:11] are running running to their local
[14:15] hospital begging for the shot it's only
[14:18] going to take about two three or four of
[14:19] their closest antia friends to die right
[14:22] in front of their face now the impact
[14:24] has moved to the far right and oh by the
[14:27] way every single person they've talked
[14:28] to has who's been around someone got it
[14:30] now it's moved up on the probability
[14:32] every one of these [ __ ] the government
[14:34] blah blah blah 0 backers is running and
[14:37] begging and pleading to get it pleading
[14:41] desperate to get it the only reason we
[14:43] have a controversy now is because the
[14:47] perception is too vague and there's not
[14:50] enough it's not as devastating to
[14:52] everybody so it allows people to move in
[14:54] and out of any one of those quadrants at
[14:56] any given time this is what I need at
[14:58] the start the year I feel like I want to
[14:59] have a [ __ ] fight with someone or
[15:01] something now um
[15:04] beautiful 100% 100% And and then the
[15:07] other thing that I wanted to ask you
[15:08] about because why would I not want to
[15:09] ask you this now you've said it if you
[15:10] were to redo the prospecting part what's
[15:14] one thing that you would if you only
[15:16] focus on one thing that you want to add
[15:18] or give your perspective on what would
[15:19] that one thing be I don't know if
[15:22] there's one thing because I'm still
[15:25] trying
[15:27] to sift through what is going on and
[15:30] outbound right now
[15:32] um I I don't feel like an expert in the
[15:36] outbound anymore because it's changed so
[15:38] much and there there isn't really a
[15:41] consistent plan that is working for
[15:43] everybody I mean one of my be h i l her
[15:46] she she's still a fan and and
[15:49] she's still supportive but and she says
[15:51] it works but I I'm I still think she's
[15:54] only found a way to work in a few places
[15:56] anymore and and she'll probably get mad
[15:57] at me for saying that but so I don't
[15:59] know if it's one thing I think I think
[16:03] the Market's still settling or the space
[16:04] is still settling I would say this
[16:09] um and people AR going to like it the
[16:13] one thing that I see that is working it
[16:15] just takes too long for most
[16:17] organizations is content creation at the
[16:20] rep level so getting the rep in the
[16:24] organization getting salespeople to
[16:26] create content share content talk about
[16:29] content teach educate as much as they
[16:32] can every single day across as many
[16:34] platforms as possible is still working
[16:38] we're we're our business is
[16:41] 95% inbound so you said obviously
[16:45] outbound is [ __ ] we we're talking
[16:47] about that what are because people will
[16:49] be listening to this thinking like we
[16:51] know what it's liking and people
[16:53] thinking I don't have a problem I'm okay
[16:55] so what what are if outbound is [ __ ]
[16:58] what does that look like what are the
[16:59] symptoms of that if I'm going to listen
[17:01] to this on my walk to work what are you
[17:03] going to say right now that's going to
[17:05] make me sit up and listen and go [ __ ]
[17:07] yeah maybe we do have a problem that's a
[17:10] fantastic question fantastic question
[17:12] look the symptoms are this that you're
[17:14] making one2 200 calls and you're and
[17:17] you're getting one or two connections so
[17:19] the first part about from my from my
[17:21] perspective the reason outbound is so
[17:23] [ __ ] is because Connection rates I
[17:25] can't influence those and everybody's
[17:26] like oh well yes you can you can call
[17:28] different times like okay you maybe move
[17:30] the needle this much just please stop
[17:32] this just that is there's not a
[17:34] repeatable effective way to get people
[17:36] to pick up the phone okay you just you
[17:39] can't okay same thing with emails emails
[17:41] are getting um uh filtered faster uh
[17:45] they're they're not reading them Etc so
[17:48] the first thing is is if you're making
[17:49] calls and you're making hundreds of
[17:50] calls before you get a pickup or even
[17:53] one connection for 50 to 75 calls or
[17:56] more you're in trouble you're not in
[17:57] trouble if you're getting Connection
[17:58] rates for every I would say 20 or less
[18:00] calls I think you're not in trouble so
[18:03] that means if you make 80 calls you can
[18:04] get four setups it's not ideal that's a
[18:06] lot of calls just for four pickups but I
[18:09] mean that's that's um executable you can
[18:11] do that right um the another one is your
[18:15] your when they do connect you're not
[18:18] getting them to set meetings so you're
[18:19] not able to set meetings or your meeting
[18:21] set rate is really low so if you are
[18:23] getting connections at all and every
[18:24] four people you you know you're only
[18:26] getting one meeting for every eight nine
[18:29] 10 connections okay again do the math
[18:32] right so if it takes 10 connections to
[18:34] get one meeting right that and it takes
[18:38] 50 calls or 100 calls to get 10 that's a
[18:42] thousand calls right to get 10 meetings
[18:45] to get one I mean to get I can't talk 10
[18:48] connections to get one me thousand calls
[18:50] for one meeting that's that's not
[18:53] sustainable right so you just ask just
[18:56] the way to do it is take a look at your
[18:58] entire process go from connections to
[19:02] meetings scheduled people showing up
[19:06] opportunities created opportunities
[19:08] closed and ask yourself how many calls
[19:10] and emails does it take to get from
[19:13] there to even an opportunity forget the
[19:15] close them opportunity and then close
[19:17] and if you're starting to talk about
[19:19] thousands of emails and thousands of
[19:22] calls it's it's not sustainable it's too
[19:24] much work is is there another way of
[19:28] doing
[19:28] how much does that SDR create and close
[19:31] business right from their outbound
[19:33] efforts how much is that SDR against
[19:35] what you're paying them and against all
[19:37] the tools you're paying them is is there
[19:40] an argument to be made though if I'm a
[19:42] business owner and obviously that's
[19:44] something that you can do and you can go
[19:46] out and you're actually you you might
[19:48] not be in control of the people that
[19:50] obviously we know that with outbound
[19:51] cold and code calling there's not much
[19:53] that you're in control of but if you're
[19:56] sat there and you're creating content
[19:57] yeah you can create great content but
[20:00] you're still at the same you're at the
[20:02] mercy of people that see it it's there's
[20:05] not much you can controll are you saying
[20:08] content marketing over outbound
[20:10] completely or it's just everybody needs
[20:12] to wake up and and switch on to that
[20:14] well see that's that's where I put the
[20:16] aster I'm not I don't know what to say
[20:17] yet that more than anything what I can
[20:19] tell you is here at ASG where we're
[20:23] leaning on the content marketing because
[20:25] here's why I believe you can control
[20:27] content marketing why when I sit down
[20:29] and I let's just let's just kind of
[20:30] simplify this if I sit down and I'm
[20:32] going to spend two hours making calls
[20:33] right whether I use a dialer or emails
[20:35] and Outreach whatever right I can
[20:38] control that message and I hopefully
[20:40] they pick up okay but that message is an
[20:43] email trying to get someone to take
[20:45] action immediately okay where if I spend
[20:47] that two hours researching and creating
[20:50] content that educates people and gets
[20:53] people interested and provides value to
[20:55] them not in a selling environment but a
[20:57] learning environment then I drop that
[20:58] [ __ ] on LinkedIn or I drop that [ __ ] on
[21:00] Tik Tok wherever I do
[21:02] it that is going to without a doubt get
[21:05] more eyeballs every single time every
[21:08] single time it's GNA get more eyeballs
[21:10] if I get really really good at that it's
[21:13] going to get more eyeballs every time
[21:15] more people going to read it more people
[21:17] going to reach out to me it's going to
[21:18] make more of a connection and then when
[21:20] they're ready to buy to thinking about
[21:21] buying they're going to call me or
[21:23] they're going to connect with me so
[21:25] without a doubt that I have more control
[21:28] because the when you take salesperson a
[21:31] and salesperson b or marketing company a
[21:32] and marketing company B they will create
[21:34] different content right and sometimes
[21:37] that content is good for some people and
[21:38] it's not good for other people so I can
[21:40] be a better content creator than
[21:42] everybody else right and I'm going one
[21:45] to many if I can be a better email
[21:46] writer yes I may have more luck but I'm
[21:48] still going one to one I I and I get it
[21:51] and I think the best sales people
[21:53] especially in outbound in 2024 I think
[21:56] the best sales people are going to be
[21:57] the people that can do it all I can
[22:00] write a great email I can create great
[22:01] content and I can be a kill on the phone
[22:03] and host a [ __ ] good Discovery um I W
[22:06] to I'm gonna say something here um and
[22:10] I'm I'm guessing if it was a LinkedIn
[22:13] status you would have people in your
[22:15] comments arguing with you till they're
[22:17] blew in the face selling to a customer's
[22:19] need is wrong oh yeah it's Terri so
[22:22] people are arguing with you why are they
[22:24] wrong look there's some subtleties and
[22:27] nuances to this but the concept is you
[22:29] find customer says oh I
[22:31] need a new t-shirt I need a new car I
[22:35] need and so you start selling to that
[22:38] the Assumption of selling to need is
[22:39] that you that they understand what their
[22:42] needs are that they've properly assessed
[22:45] their environment that they understand
[22:47] the environment they're playing in they
[22:49] understand what's going on well in most
[22:51] cases particularly in B2B they haven't
[22:54] and they don't and so if you start
[22:57] trying to react act to that need-based
[22:59] selling you can you could miss the Mark
[23:01] or sell them the wrong thing right and
[23:03] even worse is and this happens all the
[23:06] time as the sales process proceeds and
[23:09] they start looking at other people and
[23:11] other things and they start learning
[23:12] more and they start moving away from you
[23:14] you can't pull them back because you
[23:17] don't understand why they're making the
[23:19] decision they're making you don't
[23:20] understand the root causes to the
[23:21] problem you don't understand the
[23:22] problems they're trying to solve you
[23:23] don't understand the impact of the
[23:24] problems that exist you don't understand
[23:25] the desired outcomes so you can't pull
[23:27] them back back and they say things well
[23:29] you know I'm not sure you you know you
[23:31] don't have this feature so you know
[23:32] maybe we're not going to go this
[23:33] direction or we're concerned about how
[23:35] you do this and you have no idea why
[23:36] that feature matters and you have no
[23:38] idea why the um uh why that we can't do
[23:42] a b and c is issue because you don't
[23:45] understand what they're trying to
[23:46] solve so you you put yourself in a
[23:49] serious disadvantage when you try to
[23:51] sell to someone's need need is what the
[23:53] customer thinks they want sell to
[23:55] solving the problem and you're actually
[23:57] giving them what they actually need
[23:59] beautifully po I think sometimes I like
[24:02] to give people these like real world
[24:04] examples I'm sure Gap selling like the
[24:06] stuff that we do takes from therapy and
[24:09] Alcoholics Anonymous and all sorts of
[24:11] stuff but if someone needs to stop
[24:13] drinking and being an alcoholic they
[24:15] just know I need to stop drinking they
[24:17] don't know why they drink that's why
[24:19] they go to Alcoholics Anonymous so they
[24:20] can find out the root cause of that
[24:22] problem and solve it so sometimes you
[24:25] have to put these selling scenarios in
[24:26] the real world and people oh yeah
[24:28] actually that makes perfect sense now
[24:29] I've realized I'm a human being dealing
[24:31] with other human beings so yeah
[24:33] beautifully put another maybe misnomer
[24:36] in sales is this thing around
[24:38] relationship building we're business
[24:40] owners I find it creepy when people try
[24:42] and build relationships with me and
[24:44] they've stalked my LinkedIn profile they
[24:46] know things about the high school I went
[24:48] to so so for you is Rapport building
[24:51] about how much research I've done on
[24:53] Keenan is it about the questions I ask
[24:56] or the answers I give which one is it
[24:58] for you where you think right I'm I'm
[25:00] I'm jelling with this person
[25:01] now um for me report building is the
[25:05] questions primarily it's all three but
[25:07] it's questions I ask in other words am I
[25:10] asking questions that make this person
[25:12] believe that I understand their world
[25:14] the best way to describe is go to a
[25:15] doctor and the doctor who asks you the
[25:18] best questions to understand where you
[25:20] are is the one that makes you feel most
[25:22] comfortable right and the doctor who
[25:25] doesn't ask you the best questions or
[25:27] doesn't ask you any questions the one
[25:28] that makes you feel the least
[25:29] comfortable so it to me it starts with
[25:31] asking questions that suggest I know
[25:34] what I'm talking
[25:35] about and they appreciate the questions
[25:38] because it's getting them to think about
[25:39] their environment and oh that's a good
[25:41] question like I didn't think about that
[25:43] or that's something I need to consider
[25:44] or that wasn't on my radar I appreciate
[25:47] you bringing me there because that's
[25:50] going to help me make a better decision
[25:52] based on that if if I've got to show
[25:54] someone quickly that I'm an expert in
[25:57] their space that I know what I'm talking
[25:59] about but they're maybe going to judge
[26:01] me on that first one or two questions
[26:04] typically what are your go-to opening
[26:06] maybe one or two questions that get
[26:08] someone okay this guy's asking me the
[26:09] right kind of things he knows what he's
[26:10] talking about if I'm a organization with
[26:13] a sales team who might have problems
[26:14] that you solve so I I think my first
[26:17] question is what environment are you in
[26:18] where where you have to how did you say
[26:21] that have to tell them something at
[26:23] first or get like why why are you even
[26:24] in that
[26:25] environment as in maybe it's a inbound
[26:29] inquiry they've seen the content that
[26:31] you've been putting out there and
[26:32] they're like you know what you might be
[26:33] able to help with something can we set
[26:35] up a discovery call yeah so the very
[26:38] first question I ask is is hey thanks
[26:40] for calling in Zach uh now let's just
[26:43] say you it a lead form right you might
[26:45] have said something like you know um
[26:47] you're interested in talking to somebody
[26:49] about sales training could you take a
[26:51] second to talk me or walk me through
[26:52] what's going
[26:54] on that's my very first
[26:56] question right very first question now I
[26:59] want you to process through this from a
[27:00] human lens what type of person's going
[27:03] to say no just tell me what you
[27:08] offer and if that's their tax I try to
[27:11] break it but after two or three I'm like
[27:12] [ __ ] it go somewhere else like like
[27:15] clearly you thought that there was
[27:17] enough value in my content our website
[27:20] an ad that you thought we could help so
[27:23] I'm asking you to tell me the [ __ ] is
[27:25] going on so I can see if I can help you
[27:27] if you aren't in that position I don't
[27:29] want to do business with you because
[27:30] you're probably a numb [ __ ] numb
[27:32] skull and you're going to make bad
[27:33] decisions and you're not going to listen
[27:34] to me so I don't want to work with you
[27:35] in the first place like I didn't say
[27:37] tell me what your daughter's name is I
[27:38] didn't say tell me what's in your bank
[27:40] account I simply said fantastic tell me
[27:42] what's going can you give me a little
[27:43] bit information what's going on with
[27:44] your sales
[27:46] team and then shut the [ __ ] up and
[27:49] listen and then you should very easily
[27:52] from there be able to ask follow on
[27:54] question after follow on question I have
[27:56] not and cannot think of a time or
[27:58] situation no that's not
[28:00] true that
[28:02] um that I had to to to stop talking
[28:05] about but I made this mistake once about
[28:07] it cost me a deal about $150,000 deal um
[28:11] I had a past client who was cro he
[28:13] called me up we want to do some work I
[28:15] asked got all these questions answered
[28:17] he told me what the problem was because
[28:18] he he knew Gap selling but then his CEO
[28:21] wanted to meet me and the and my I made
[28:23] a horrible horrible assumption the
[28:26] Assumption was that the CEO want to the
[28:27] problems is the same as C and they had
[28:29] talked and so he asked me about Gap
[28:32] selling and I took the bait biggest
[28:35] mistake I made I took the bait and
[28:36] started talking about Gap selling and it
[28:38] turns out he hadn't talked to the cro
[28:40] that much number one number two it
[28:41] turned out that he fancied himself
[28:43] that's English He fancied himself um an
[28:46] expert in sales and so started arguing
[28:49] with me over some of the concepts and
[28:52] well I used to train this and train that
[28:54] and D I was like ah [ __ ] I just stepped
[28:56] in it so so um generally speaking though
[29:00] you're not going to find yourself in
[29:01] those
[29:02] situations I find it baffling that
[29:06] especially when you when you're training
[29:08] people that people are so unprepared
[29:11] that they think okay if they say this
[29:14] it's like it's got to be a flowchart in
[29:16] so many people's sales people so many
[29:19] sales people's head of if they say this
[29:22] I ask this where it's like if you just
[29:24] step back and listen and ask genuine
[29:28] questions and mirror and label and you
[29:31] just you just dig deeper like how I
[29:36] obviously we know because we've read the
[29:38] the book but when you're on a call what
[29:40] what does it take for you to be happy
[29:42] with an answer like like what are you
[29:45] genuinely looking for for you to say
[29:47] yeah that's deep enough you've actually
[29:49] given me the truth there how many times
[29:50] do you have to keep digging until you
[29:52] get there the primary thing I'm looking
[29:54] to is
[29:55] understand so I think the macro level
[29:58] I'm trying to understand why you would
[30:01] want to spend the money why you would
[30:02] want to go through the change like
[30:04] that's for me that's my motivation is I
[30:08] I'm almost trying to disqual I mean not
[30:10] really but it by default I guess I'm
[30:12] almost looking to
[30:14] disqualify by qualifying like I I need
[30:18] to understand why why do you want sales
[30:21] training like that costs money that
[30:23] takes time in my head I'm not saying
[30:25] this in my head I'm like that costs
[30:26] money that takes time that's a lot of
[30:28] work why just not keep doing what you're
[30:31] doing why would you invest 50150 200 300
[30:35] $400,000 what's going on that would C
[30:37] make you feel you need to make that kind
[30:39] of investment and if I can't understand
[30:43] after asking a lot of questions why they
[30:45] would then I know that sale is not going
[30:47] to
[30:48] happen right so that's that's my main
[30:51] driver is not to sell anything it's to
[30:54] get to a place where you've given me
[30:56] enough information
[30:58] where I'm like oh [ __ ] okay I get it I I
[31:00] see why you guys need to make this
[31:01] investment then I can shift to the
[31:03] Future State and say so what are we
[31:05] trying to accomplish now if this is
[31:06] going on and that's going on and this is
[31:08] happening that's where do we want to be
[31:09] like what's going on and what happens if
[31:11] we don't get there right so that's
[31:13] really what the Gap is all about it's
[31:16] understanding the current state and why
[31:18] staying where you are is not okay right
[31:19] where the current state is untenable and
[31:22] intolerable and then from there okay so
[31:25] then what is it you're trying to achieve
[31:26] and why is that so important what
[31:27] happens if you don't achieve it so
[31:29] that's really what I do in my
[31:31] discoveries it's simply so I can
[31:33] understand and if I can't understand I'm
[31:35] never comfortable and I'm sure that you
[31:38] have been in situations where you've not
[31:40] felt comfortable you've told them that
[31:43] you don't feel comfortable and they've
[31:45] probably said brilliant Keenan we want
[31:47] to do business with you have you got
[31:48] anything anecdotally like that yeah I
[31:51] mean we're working on a massive deal
[31:53] right now and I think we're driving them
[31:55] crazy we may lose it because of it and
[31:57] you know I have to learn how to Pivot
[31:59] because I can't lose this kind of
[32:00] business it's a multi7 figureure deal
[32:03] and
[32:04] um massive company and they just haven't
[32:06] done the work yet like they think they
[32:08] have they keep saying they keep saying
[32:10] what they need we need this we need this
[32:13] and the team's not doing I give them
[32:14] some credit too they also understand the
[32:16] root CA team's not doing this team's not
[32:17] doing that team's doing it this way
[32:18] team's doing it that way blah blah blah
[32:20] blah blah but what they haven't been
[32:21] able to do is tell me okay so because
[32:23] the team is doing this what's
[32:26] happened is is revenue down well we
[32:28] don't know or is the win rates declining
[32:32] we don't know is the average sales price
[32:35] declin we think so wa where do you want
[32:38] it to be well we haven't got that
[32:39] information yet so yeah I believe they
[32:42] have a real problem but I can't quantify
[32:44] it I don't understand it this is not a
[32:46] small effort and so it's making me very
[32:48] uncomfortable because you know they're
[32:50] looking to spend a lot of money and I
[32:52] don't think they have a way of measuring
[32:54] the success I don't think they have a
[32:55] real understanding of what the cost is
[32:57] if they weren't to do it how do they
[32:58] even know the cost of not doing is
[32:59] exceeding the cost of the change right
[33:01] so there's a lot going on and I don't
[33:03] have all the information and we're
[33:04] trying and they're working with us but
[33:06] it makes me very uncomfortable yeah 100%
[33:09] so I wanted to talk a little bit about
[33:11] um desired future state so sometimes
[33:15] when we're exploring that stage on the
[33:18] on the qualification side or one of the
[33:21] guys are they they have to read Gap
[33:22] selling to get promotion in our business
[33:24] so they have to prove that they've read
[33:26] it and desired future State something
[33:27] that gets explored in depth right but
[33:31] sometimes what we find is what people
[33:32] give us from the prospect side in
[33:34] desired future State isn't always
[33:36] realistic or based in reality so how do
[33:39] you marry up the desired future state
[33:42] with the realistic future State what are
[33:45] some Explorations that we can do there
[33:47] can you give me an
[33:48] example uh yes so our business we we
[33:52] effectively kick the doors down and get
[33:54] people meetings with their dream clients
[33:56] that's that's what our business does and
[33:58] sometimes I would ask the question of if
[34:00] we work together how would you know it
[34:01] was working and they might say well I'd
[34:03] have sat and closed x amount of meetings
[34:06] in the first month now I know what to to
[34:09] say in terms of exploring that but in
[34:12] your line of work from from your
[34:14] experience when they would say right
[34:16] that's what I think constitutes success
[34:20] how do I then cross reference that
[34:21] against what's
[34:22] realistic all right so you didn't use
[34:25] numbers so I'm going to I'm going to
[34:26] guess here but in the book I talk about
[34:28] Define everything so you know that's
[34:31] very important here's a good example why
[34:33] but I'm going to Define it for you so
[34:34] what I would do in that situation is
[34:36] let's just say they basically you you
[34:38] set up meetings is what I'm getting
[34:40] right so if someone is only let's say
[34:42] someone has a sales team of 25 right now
[34:44] and they're only setting
[34:46] up 17 meetings a week which means a
[34:50] shitty eight of their salese aren or SDS
[34:52] whatever aren't setting up meetings at
[34:53] all right and so 20 wait I said 17 so 17
[34:58] * 4 34 uh uhoh
[35:02] 70 148 or something like 146 or
[35:05] something terrible math but I think
[35:06] we're almost there 146 right meetings a
[35:09] month against 25 reps it should be at
[35:12] least 200 to 400 you know what I'm
[35:14] saying so they're way off the number and
[35:16] then so that's where they are and you've
[35:18] got all that out and then they and you
[35:20] said well how would we measure success
[35:21] well if we're getting seven or 800
[35:23] meetings right then I would say okay I
[35:27] love the
[35:28] enthusiasm but let's talk about this for
[35:30] a second what makes you believe or where
[35:34] did that number come from and I'll get
[35:37] them talking and I might say because
[35:39] that is a big stretch that is an
[35:41] absolute Big Stretch based on our
[35:43] experience in today's world blah blah
[35:45] blah a realistic number is one to two
[35:48] meetings a week by rep right now you're
[35:51] doing 75 I think my math is right and so
[35:54] if we could move you to something more
[35:56] IND his average of 1 to two that would
[35:59] get you closer to 500 but that's not
[36:00] getting you to 7 or 800 so let's talk
[36:04] about this where did that number come
[36:05] from why is that number important to you
[36:07] and let's talk about why we believe it's
[36:09] possible because with the existing team
[36:11] and our expertise I don't think that's
[36:12] something that's possible but I could be
[36:14] wrong so I challenge him it sounds like
[36:17] what you're saying is almost we're going
[36:19] to take what you've said and run it
[36:21] through like a lawyer's evidence lens of
[36:24] where where's the where's the evidence
[36:25] and the logic in
[36:28] yes yes yes it's always about the data
[36:32] that's why I say Define everything
[36:36] that's the whole purpose of defin it's
[36:37] all about it's all about the data
[36:40] everything about Gap selling is about
[36:42] the data everything I don't care what it
[36:45] is you sell or who you sell to it's all
[36:46] about the data so does that imply that
[36:49] the modern sales person needs to be
[36:52] mathematically equipped to have these
[36:55] conversations no no because data doesn't
[36:57] always have to be a math equation right
[37:00] so here's an example I had a client who
[37:01] said their future state was to exit at
[37:04] um six figures in 2020 this is a past
[37:08] past client I talk about him in the book
[37:10] Exit for six figures in 2020 um for the
[37:14] five I think it was the five owners they
[37:17] were currently at X they the currently
[37:20] at $10 and they needed to get they're
[37:22] currently $25 and needed to get to $40 a
[37:25] year you know what I'm saying in Reven
[37:26] Vue and um if they could do that that
[37:30] once they crossed I think it was the 30
[37:32] or $35 a year Revenue I'm just making up
[37:35] numbers that their valuations would go
[37:37] from three to five to 7 to 10 and they
[37:40] had uh some players in the industry had
[37:42] experienced that so they knew that it
[37:44] wasn't just about you know the multiple
[37:47] 3 to 5x against Revenue they knew after
[37:49] a certain level that multiple also
[37:51] doubled you see what I'm saying so I'm
[37:54] really [ __ ] at math to the second power
[37:56] now I believe is what that is so they
[37:57] were really smart about that so they
[37:59] were very specific that we need to get
[38:00] past to this number to get this type of
[38:04] exit by this time I don't need to be
[38:07] math that's just data this is this is
[38:09] where we're at this is where we want to
[38:10] be this is the reason we want to be
[38:12] there this is the value to us at being
[38:14] there this is our current growth rate
[38:16] our current growth rate doesn't get us
[38:17] there our current growth rate is 20% off
[38:20] you see what I'm saying you don't need
[38:21] mathematical genius you just got to get
[38:22] the data like literally just get the
[38:24] data you know what it's like it's like P
[38:26] packing for a [ __ ] trip some people
[38:28] throw a bunch of [ __ ] in the bag and
[38:29] they take off like oh no I forgot my
[38:31] bathing suit right other people are like
[38:33] okay I'm going to the beach this is what
[38:36] I need to maximize my experience at the
[38:38] beach if I don't have this I'm not in
[38:40] good shape and they make a list and they
[38:41] go down and and they check it do I have
[38:43] this this this this this they got it
[38:45] that's data that's the data I'm talking
[38:46] about so as a salesperson your job is to
[38:49] dig in in the currency where are you now
[38:50] how many like physical and literal how
[38:52] many reps what locations blah blah blah
[38:54] problem what problems do you have is it
[38:56] you know depends on what you sell but
[38:57] what problems how how many of those
[38:58] problems you have how big are those
[38:59] problems tell me the numbers against
[39:01] those problems whether it's number of
[39:02] employees number of um mistakes the
[39:05] findes you pay like how many fines how
[39:07] often like it's just the data it's just
[39:09] clearly getting all the information so
[39:12] you can properly assess what's going on
[39:14] like a therapist I gotta know what's
[39:17] going on in the [ __ ] relationship and
[39:18] if I don't I can't help you I don't know
[39:20] if you're cheating I don't know if
[39:21] you're talking to each other I don't
[39:23] know how often you're intimate I don't
[39:24] know if you tell you each other like
[39:26] each other know if you hold hands when
[39:27] you go I don't know how you discipline
[39:28] the kids you see what I'm doing just
[39:30] give me the data and then I can properly
[39:32] assess what's going on and tell you what
[39:33] you should do you make it sound so
[39:36] simple yet I know so many salese if they
[39:39] were the therapist would run in there
[39:41] straight away and say oh my God I'm so
[39:43] glad you've come to me here's the karma
[39:45] sutra see you later and they just
[39:47] prescribe something off the back um uh
[39:50] So speaking of books um obviously Gap
[39:53] selling is hugely successful have you
[39:56] you notice any like cultural quirks um
[39:59] after Gap selling so how well does it
[40:02] dance in different cultures so like from
[40:04] the UK to the USA I'm I'm sure that you
[40:06] do training all over the world have you
[40:08] seen culturally it's like a oh my God it
[40:11] doesn't land there or actually it lands
[40:13] better in the UK than the
[40:15] US okay so yes it doesn't land as well
[40:19] in
[40:21] Asia and doesn't quite land as well in
[40:24] the Middle East
[40:28] however to me that is I guess this would
[40:32] be cultural okay so I guess it is
[40:35] cultural in that those two particular
[40:38] areas and it's not 100% it's just some
[40:41] have a very difficult
[40:44] time
[40:46] acknowledging no I'll change it there is
[40:49] less of the human element in this in the
[40:54] transactions in those cultures
[40:57] so I'm actually doing some work with
[40:59] China right now for a separate project
[41:01] where I'm the
[41:02] buyer and in in China in particular the
[41:06] transaction is so transactional the
[41:09] culture is so
[41:12] transactional that they hurt themselves
[41:14] and nobody sees it like literally now I
[41:16] don't know it's be if because there are
[41:18] a few I haven't figured out why exactly
[41:20] yet I don't know if it's because there
[41:21] are few options or people have just
[41:23] accepted it or or whatever the case may
[41:25] be but is so transactional that no one
[41:27] stops and really thinks about the
[41:30] psychological elements and because
[41:31] because Gap sign is based on the
[41:32] psychological concept of change right so
[41:35] it is so driven by price and I've
[41:37] literally said okay so what you're
[41:38] saying is you'll take the cheapest price
[41:40] yes so if the cheapest price is a
[41:42] cheaper product that breaks every four
[41:44] weeks you're still going to buy the
[41:45] cheapest product and they freeze they
[41:48] don't well it won't break okay so they
[41:51] they really don't apply the next level
[41:55] thinking to the the outcome you see what
[41:57] I'm saying it is so locked in on price
[41:59] and I think they built processes and
[42:00] approaches and cultural understandings I
[42:02] don't know to mitigate the downstream
[42:04] effects of that but it's unbelievable
[42:06] and I'll give you this quick example my
[42:08] daughter is a major skier and and we're
[42:10] gonna design a ski line for her right
[42:13] and so I I paid someone a really really
[42:16] good actually ski um design ski wear
[42:19] designer um to design a pair of Mogul
[42:21] pants for her and so he did it total
[42:24] spec like this thing is nailed out exact
[42:26] L what they're supposed to do the type
[42:27] of materials where everything's supposed
[42:29] to go it's this whole eight page spec
[42:31] Doc and I set it out for for bid I get
[42:33] all these different prices back I picked
[42:35] three um I picked three and two of the
[42:39] three argued with me on the tech specs
[42:42] to the point that they didn't even do
[42:43] what I asked and just sent it back the
[42:45] way they thought it should have been
[42:47] done and then I get it I'm like what is
[42:50] this this isn't what I put in the
[42:52] textbook well our designer said that if
[42:54] you did it the way you're doing it it
[42:55] would look funny and this and that I'm
[42:57] like hey [ __ ] we know that it'll look
[43:00] funny because they're Mogul pants Mogul
[43:02] skiing requires a very baggy pant to
[43:05] hide the space between your legs so that
[43:07] when you're skiing the judges can't see
[43:09] leg separation it's designed for this
[43:11] it's designed for that and then the
[43:13] other thing is the kids all the
[43:14] traditional ski pants do it like you
[43:16] just did it and so the kids have to take
[43:17] a belt and take a 44 and squeeze it into
[43:20] like a 28 inch waist or 32 inch waist
[43:23] and they don't like it so I'm trying to
[43:25] solve that problem
[43:26] and they're like oh well we'll do it
[43:29] again I'm like you just wasted eight
[43:31] weeks of my time I needed those pants
[43:33] now as I [ __ ] asked for them right
[43:37] but the whole cultural concept was just
[43:40] just very transactional just go go go go
[43:43] go go go go so yeah it doesn't land as
[43:45] well there because it doesn't allow for
[43:48] the dialogue it doesn't allow for the
[43:49] problem solving everything is very
[43:51] reactionary very reactionary you
[43:53] mentioned earlier about cyber security
[43:55] and insurance so from a business
[43:58] landscape Place were were there any
[44:00] other places where Gap selling doesn't
[44:02] land or it's like a it's quite tricky it
[44:05] Gap
[44:07] selling take the con Gap selling off Gap
[44:10] selling just simply
[44:13] leverages the concept of change that's
[44:16] all it's designed to do if you're
[44:19] unhappy if something is going on in your
[44:21] life that is intolerable or in untenable
[44:24] you are primed to change
[44:26] the concept of Gap selling is simply to
[44:28] help um facilitate that change by asking
[44:32] questions by trying to understand by
[44:34] getting the buyer or the person to
[44:36] understand and then say wow you're right
[44:38] you know what I can't stay here this
[44:39] isn't this is not serving me right
[44:42] that's why I use therapy a lot it's not
[44:45] serving me and so now that I've come to
[44:47] the conclusion that it's not serving me
[44:48] and I can tell you why and I can tell
[44:50] you the impact etc etc right then I have
[44:54] a platform to try to change okay now
[44:57] that I'm it's untenable because problem
[44:59] a and the impact that it's having on me
[45:02] and it's happening because of these root
[45:04] causes and if I don't change these root
[45:05] causes this problem will stick and the
[45:06] impact will get worse and I would like
[45:09] to be here
[45:10] instead now we've just created the
[45:12] template or the blueprint for tra for
[45:15] change that's all we've done and once
[45:17] you get someone there it's 10 times
[45:18] easier the value is inherent to the Gap
[45:21] it's just inherent to the whole
[45:23] thing so you can use it in marriages you
[45:26] can use it to to improve the marriage
[45:27] you can use it to help a kid pick a
[45:29] school you can use it to help a kid
[45:30] decide if they want to quit soccer like
[45:32] you can use it in every single scenario
[45:35] in life as long as the individuals
[45:39] engaged are properly committed to
[45:42] evaluating the problem and that's why I
[45:45] said it doesn't do as well in China
[45:46] because China or I should say Asia Asia
[45:48] is less problem Centric and how they
[45:50] approach a sale in
[45:52] general so K Ken we get a lot of
[45:55] salespeople who are still in the
[45:57] trenches they're picking up the phone
[45:59] every day they're trying to qualify
[46:01] people from the outset if you could give
[46:04] them one question to try and just
[46:07] incorporate in the game might not work
[46:09] but just something to try as a as a top
[46:11] question for you what question would you
[46:13] throw at them and say maybe try this to
[46:15] get people to open
[46:17] up yeah it's the question it's the
[46:19] question I threw out to you 20 minutes
[46:20] ago yeah tell me what's going
[46:22] on yeah like any version of that
[46:25] question that is absolutely what should
[46:26] be asked every time like I have people
[46:27] come to me all the time hey Keenan I'm
[46:30] really struggle with my girlfriend man
[46:31] can you can you give me an air I'm like
[46:33] yeah first question what's going
[46:35] on right some some like ah I cannot
[46:37] stand I don't think I want to stay in
[46:39] school anymore I don't like it I want to
[46:41] get out I what do you think my kids aren
[46:44] in school yet but what do you think
[46:44] Keenan I don't know F first answer I
[46:47] don't know tell me what's going on why
[46:49] don't you think you like it notice what
[46:50] I said there why don't you think you
[46:53] don't like it right the whole first
[46:57] question should always be to get them to
[47:01] talk about their environment to reflect
[47:04] on where they are that is your first
[47:06] objective to get the buyer to reflect on
[47:09] where they are and the best way to start
[47:10] to get them to reflect on where they are
[47:12] is to get them to tell you about where
[47:14] they
[47:17] are now what the Trap is sometimes a
[47:20] buyer or a person will start telling you
[47:21] what they need particularly a buyer like
[47:24] all right tell me what's going on well
[47:25] we need we need we need okay so I
[47:28] understand that clearly something's
[47:30] going on that you feel you need training
[47:32] you feel that you need to get the salese
[47:34] to sell more all right I appreciate that
[47:37] can you tell me why why what's going on
[47:40] that makes you feel you need
[47:42] training beautiful and so I'm just
[47:44] trying to take them back like back to
[47:47] the current state what's happening today
[47:49] that makes you feel that you need to
[47:50] spend that money what's happening today
[47:53] that makes you feel that you need to
[47:54] take the team out of the field what's
[47:56] happening today that makes you feel that
[47:58] you got you can't keep doing what you're
[48:00] doing amazing amazing um thank you so
[48:03] much K I feel like we could talk all day
[48:05] um Gap selling's been a game changer for
[48:07] all our sales guys so they all send
[48:10] their uh their thank uses to you via US
[48:13] um what's next for you any anything that
[48:15] we need to be talking about looking out
[48:17] for in terms of what what's going on
[48:19] with you in your world this
[48:21] year you know I'm I I'm trying to do my
[48:24] next book so I've got the
[48:27] data um putting in a book is a lot
[48:30] harder than I thought so we'll see so I
[48:32] I can promise you if it's not a book it
[48:34] will be a a massive research study or
[48:36] it'll be a book so uh but I'm going to
[48:39] tell everybody what I'm not tell I'm
[48:41] going to relay back to the sales world
[48:43] what buyers are telling you they want us
[48:45] to do and what is important to them to
[48:47] get from a seller and how they want to
[48:49] be sold because I've re I interviewed or
[48:52] surveyed 1,200 sales people I mean 12200
[48:54] buyers and they can tell you I'm going
[48:57] to tell you what they said so selling
[48:59] from the buyer perspective yeah or yeah
[49:02] or reacting or responding to what the
[49:04] buyers say like I can tell you like and
[49:07] it's interesting too I can tell you what
[49:09] is most important to buyers which is one
[49:11] of the ones here this big fat thing
[49:13] right here right right um I can tell you
[49:16] that one of the things that's really
[49:18] interesting is um the number one thing
[49:22] that buyers want or most valuable has
[49:25] the question stated this is just one
[49:28] tiny little interesting example what is
[49:30] the main thing A salesperson can help
[49:32] you do to move forward in the buying
[49:33] process know my business and help me
[49:36] understand and establish a strong
[49:39] Roi number one thing they say not be a
[49:42] product expert not communicate
[49:44] frequently right no un know their
[49:49] business right uh so there's a lot that
[49:53] we're learning about the buyer and what
[49:56] the buyer wants from salespeople and
[49:57] we're going to share that this year
[49:59] either in a book or in the research in
[50:03] it's in itself I'm
[50:05] excited um Keenan thank you so much for
[50:08] joining us if people want to check you
[50:10] out buy your book connect with you on
[50:12] LinkedIn come on your show and try and
[50:15] GAP sell to you how can they get in
[50:17] contact with you a website
[50:20] LinkedIn I mean can't s if you can't
[50:22] find me I don't want to talk to you I
[50:24] mean
[50:26] I mean you're not trying like if you
[50:28] can't find me you're not
[50:30] trying
[50:32] yeah Keenan at LinkedIn yeah I'm I'm too
[50:35] easy to find run a Google search yeah
[50:37] it's too easy top man thank you so much
[50:39] for your time today Keenan thank you
[50:41] guys you were great

===FILE=== NgP1SJJSESU - Sales Prospecting Masterclass Keenan and Will Aiken on Gap Selling.txt
https://youtu.be/NgP1SJJSESU
Sales Prospecting Masterclass: Keenan & Will Aiken on Gap Selling
[0:00] Keenan's got one of the best sales books
[0:02] ever written. Will Aitken, you have one
[0:04] of the best audiences within the sales
[0:07] world. Dude, dude, dude. Not only are
[0:10] you correct, you're being nice. I don't
[0:12] think a lot of sales reps know what
[0:15] problems their organization faces. This
[0:18] isn't solution-oriented anymore. You
[0:20] see, everything you just asked is
[0:22] solution-oriented.
[0:23] >> When you call someone, they're not going
[0:24] to immediately open up to you, right?
[0:25] Someone calls me and asks me about my
[0:26] marriage, I might tell them to [ __ ] off
[0:27] cuz it's none of their business. Also,
[0:29] cuz I don't have one anymore. Run a
[0:31] business like you would want that
[0:32] business to be run on you. If someone
[0:33] says the internet is slow, that is not
[0:36] a problem, that is a root cause.
[0:37] Yes!
[0:39] Yes, I WOULD YES, I WOULD.
[0:43] GENTS, good to see you again.
[0:45] Um I'm going to chuck my first question
[0:47] over to Keenan if I can. You mentioned
[0:50] up top you help people who are
[0:52] struggling to get attention.
[0:54] Why are people struggling to get
[0:55] attention at the minute in our world?
[0:57] Ah, I mean
[0:59] I'm going to use an old-school parable.
[1:02] I mean, it's not exactly the same, but
[1:04] it's kind of the same through intention.
[1:06] Do you guys remember the little boy who
[1:07] cried wolf?
[1:09] Yeah.
[1:10] Yeah, so I'm going to make this [ __ ] up,
[1:12] but I don't know, in like the '80s, when
[1:14] I was selling when the '90s and '90s
[1:16] when I was selling
[1:18] um
[1:20] sales buyers would pick up the phone and
[1:21] listen to you.
[1:23] And then after a while they started to
[1:24] realize you're not offering me anything,
[1:27] this is [ __ ] so they didn't they
[1:28] did it less and less and less. And
[1:30] finally they're like, "I you have
[1:31] nothing for me." And they block you out
[1:32] even if you have something. So, the
[1:33] little boy who cried wolf, he was up
[1:35] there and HE'S LIKE, "OH, WOLF!"
[1:36] EVERYONE COMES RUNNING. "OH MY GOD!" AND
[1:37] THEY'RE LIKE, "AHA, I GOT YOU, GOT YOU,
[1:38] RIGHT?" SO, they they they they gave
[1:41] them their attention and then they're
[1:42] like, "Okay." And the second time they
[1:43] didn't run up quite as fast. "Oh, what's
[1:45] going on?" "Ah, got you." And then the
[1:47] third time they were like, "No, there's
[1:48] no wolf."
[1:49] So, they they just they blocked him out.
[1:51] And there was actually a wolf, right?
[1:53] So, that's what we've done with selling
[1:54] is we've blocked people out. We we have
[1:57] just inundated them with garbage and BS
[2:00] and wasted their time and wasted their
[2:01] time putting us first trying to sell our
[2:03] stuff without any any commitment or
[2:05] understanding or or
[2:07] appreciation for their time, what
[2:09] they're trying to do, what the problems
[2:10] they are struggling with. And so they're
[2:11] like, "Fuck it. You could be literally
[2:13] Will's got a great story. YOU COULD BE
[2:14] GIVING ME FREE MONEY
[2:16] AND I DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU."
[2:18] WOW. WELL, makes sense. Hand over to you
[2:20] shortly. Yeah, I mean, to to Keenan's
[2:23] point about the story, I've done this
[2:24] exercise a couple of times both as like
[2:26] sales team trainings to get the point
[2:28] across and I've done it myself as well,
[2:30] where I basically sent sellers out in
[2:32] the streets into the public holding a
[2:34] stack of gift cards, 20, 50 bucks. Done
[2:36] it myself as well. And then just try to
[2:38] hand them out, no strings, nothing like
[2:40] that.
[2:41] And you can probably guess what most
[2:42] people do.
[2:43] You go, "Do you want a gift card?" They
[2:44] go, "No, no, I'm good. Carry on walking.
[2:46] No, I'm fine." Sometimes if you get them
[2:48] engaged in a conversation, you'll be
[2:49] like, "There There's no strings
[2:50] attached." They're like, "There's always
[2:51] a price, you know?" So, people are
[2:52] conditioned naturally to one avoid
[2:55] things that seem too good to be true. No
[2:57] one ever really likes to be sold to, but
[2:58] to Keenan's point, we've only made that
[3:00] worse and worse and attention's only
[3:01] gone down and down because every single
[3:03] time there's a new way for us to get in
[3:04] touch with someone, we bloody ruin it as
[3:06] sellers. Um not to say we, us and on
[3:09] this call, maybe even the people
[3:10] listening, uh but sales as general try
[3:13] and go for the easy option, go for
[3:15] volume, go for noise and absolutely piss
[3:17] our buyers off so they start ignoring
[3:19] more and more and then it gets even
[3:20] harder and harder to get their
[3:21] attention. Yeah, let alone when you
[3:22] consider all the social changes like the
[3:23] fact that everyone these days has
[3:25] attention span of like .1 seconds cuz of
[3:27] social media and all the things that
[3:29] give them instant gratification, right?
[3:31] So.
[3:32] Couple of things there.
[3:34] What's funny
[3:35] What's uh really quick, what's funny
[3:36] about that in in both Will and I have
[3:38] experienced it is
[3:41] there it has happened more than once
[3:43] where a CRO has either said on social
[3:46] media or talked to Will or talked to me
[3:48] or, you know, you've heard through the
[3:49] grapevine where they blasted a rep for
[3:52] reaching out to them saying, "I don't
[3:54] take cold calls. I don't take cold
[3:56] emails. I don't have time for that."
[3:58] And then turns around and EXPECTS HIS
[3:59] ENTIRE SALES team
[4:01] to be making cold outreach.
[4:03] So, literally that's how that's how
[4:05] completely blind we are to the
[4:06] environment we've created. THE PERSON
[4:08] RUNNING THE organization hates it, won't
[4:10] engage with it, but in the same breath
[4:13] has built an entire org or part of his
[4:15] org on that very same outbound that he
[4:17] hates.
[4:18] I'm going to I'm going to eat that I'm
[4:20] going to play devil's advocate really
[4:22] early and hopefully don't piss you both
[4:23] off too much.
[4:25] All right. Keenan's got one of the best
[4:27] sales books ever written.
[4:29] And Will Aitken, you have one of the
[4:31] best audiences within the sales world.
[4:35] Why would you both need to worry about
[4:37] prospect? You two are two people who
[4:38] don't need to prospect anymore, come on.
[4:41] You're giving us a softball there, mate.
[4:43] Um you you know the answer. You guys
[4:45] have built audiences yourselves,
[4:46] although most of your stuff is
[4:47] shitposting. I love it.
[4:49] >> 
[4:51] >> I'm rage-baiting, making people think
[4:52] that you're being serious when you're
[4:53] being sarcastic.
[4:54] >> Attention, baby. Attention, Will.
[4:57] Right? But even that, when you have
[4:58] inbound, one, even if things are good
[5:01] today, they may not be good tomorrow,
[5:02] they dry up. Number two, you can never
[5:04] have too much pipeline. To the point
[5:06] about that Keenan makes heavily in in
[5:09] gap selling, you want to work with
[5:10] people who have problems, who willing to
[5:12] realize those problems,
[5:14] willing to help you work with them to
[5:16] solve those problems, right? So, by
[5:18] having more pipeline you need, you can
[5:19] focus on the people with the biggest
[5:20] problems who are most eager to work with
[5:21] you. You give yourself an abundance
[5:23] mindset and therefore your closer is
[5:24] going to show up as well because you're
[5:25] less attached to the outcome. If you've
[5:27] got three deals in your pipe or even 20
[5:30] deals in your pipe, you're going to be
[5:31] far more attached to those deals than if
[5:33] you had 40 or 50 deals in your pipeline,
[5:35] right?
[5:37] So, or if you had 50 and you just
[5:38] qualified them down so you had the 20
[5:40] best ones left, right? So, you're going
[5:41] to give yourself much more ability to
[5:43] walk away, which is ultimate power move
[5:45] in sales because ultimately what we want
[5:46] to do is be able to help people who who
[5:48] have a problem. If they don't, we don't
[5:49] want to try and force anything. But
[5:50] sellers, even those who have read and
[5:51] understand the concepts in gap selling,
[5:53] still find themselves chasing dead deals
[5:55] where there isn't a problem, there isn't
[5:57] motivation to solve the problem, or they
[5:58] might not even be able to help them
[5:59] solve the problem because it's being
[6:00] caused by something totally irrelevant
[6:02] to what their service or solution sells.
[6:04] So, it's abundance for one. It's also we
[6:07] don't know what happens tomorrow. What
[6:08] if LinkedIn gets nuked, right? I do have
[6:10] a great audience, but the algorithm
[6:12] changes, whatever changes, then what are
[6:14] we going to do? We need to keep these
[6:15] skills sharp so we have control of what
[6:18] we can control.
[6:20] Have you ever seen that um viral clip of
[6:22] a very wise, I think he's a wise Indian
[6:25] man, and he's talking about how if you
[6:28] had bad breath, it could be right under
[6:30] your nose and you still wouldn't know.
[6:33] Have you seen that clip? Yeah?
[6:34] >> Mhm.
[6:35] And let me That's That's me setting the
[6:37] scene. It's not a parable, Keenan, but
[6:39] we're we're we're pushing.
[6:41] Um
[6:42] I think there'll be you know you know
[6:44] from us like we have a large sales
[6:46] audience that listen to this podcast.
[6:47] There will be sales people that are
[6:48] listening to this now going, "Huh, yeah,
[6:50] those schmucks that make the those bad
[6:53] cold calls, that do this and they do
[6:54] that." But they might not know that
[6:56] actually it's them and their breath
[6:58] stinks. So, we think about gap
[7:00] prospecting as the cure, what what is
[7:03] the complete opposite? What what is bad
[7:06] outreach that that isn't defined in the
[7:07] gap, Keenan?
[7:10] It's product-centric. It's a really
[7:13] simple test. Go read your email.
[7:16] Right? And how many times do you say I
[7:19] or we versus you?
[7:22] Right? How much of the
[7:24] uh email talks about your product
[7:27] and a future state assessment, we help
[7:29] companies deliver, right? Future state.
[7:32] If it is I and we, our product, future
[7:36] state, it's [ __ ]
[7:38] If it's you, do you happen to
[7:41] experience, if it in suggests through
[7:43] questions something about their
[7:46] business, their business,
[7:48] their current environment, something
[7:51] that is common to that type of industry,
[7:54] and you get it you can describe it and
[7:56] then even suggest caused by,
[7:58] right? Then you know you're heading in
[8:00] the right direction. That's I mean, it's
[8:02] that simple. Then you're heading in the
[8:04] right direction.
[8:05] Will, same question to you. What what do
[8:07] you think is the complete flip?
[8:10] We call this out in the book that a lot
[8:11] of people don't think they have the
[8:12] problem that we're describing.
[8:14] Right? So, if you push it to the extreme
[8:16] level, the worst average you've ever
[8:17] seen, which is normally the
[8:18] AI-generated, mass-blasted emails that
[8:21] everyone complains about. Yeah, you're
[8:23] probably not that bad, but you're
[8:25] probably not much that much better as
[8:27] well. So, a lot of people think they're
[8:29] being product problem-centric or
[8:30] customer-focused in outreach, but
[8:32] they're still layering pitches in there
[8:33] essentially, all right? Um so, I can
[8:36] tell you so many times I've been called
[8:37] into a team and they would say, "We want
[8:38] help with cold calling."
[8:40] Like, "Okay, great. How
[8:42] Out of curiosity, what do your emails
[8:43] look like?" They're like, "Ah, emails
[8:44] are great. They're amazing. Don't worry
[8:45] about that. We just want to focus on
[8:46] cold calling." Like, "Can I Can I just
[8:48] take one quick look?" They show it and
[8:49] it's like,
[8:51] gag-worthy crap, you know? And I'm like,
[8:52] "You thought this was good, you know?"
[8:54] So, I don't think people know even what
[8:55] they don't know yet and they assume
[8:56] they're not they're doing a good enough
[8:57] job of it, but reality is they're
[8:59] probably not. They probably don't know
[9:01] their buyers that well. They're probably
[9:02] not focusing on problems. They're
[9:03] probably reaching out to the wrong
[9:04] people. And when they get someone on the
[9:06] phone, they're probably just pitching
[9:07] their ear off without even realizing it.
[9:09] So.
[9:10] I don't I don't think
[9:12] >> side of it is is all the things I just
[9:14] mentioned flipped in the head. You're
[9:15] being problem-centric. You're asking
[9:17] questions. You're just opening with
[9:18] curiosity. You're going after the exact
[9:20] right person at the right time as well.
[9:22] That's the total opposite of it.
[9:24] I I think it's so easy to say, but I
[9:26] know this can sound stupid. I don't
[9:28] think a lot of sales reps, especially
[9:31] young sales reps, know what problems
[9:33] their organization faces. So, what would
[9:36] you have any ad-
[9:37] Dude, dude, dude. Not only are you
[9:39] correct, you're being nice when you say
[9:42] just young sales reps. Dude, we lit This
[9:44] is no joke. This is not hyperbolically,
[9:46] right? This is real. Companies come to
[9:49] us and ask us to help us with their
[9:51] sales teams. And one of the steps we
[9:53] have in that is what's called the
[9:54] problem identification chart. It comes
[9:55] right out of gap selling. And what we
[9:57] call it the pick, right? What the pick
[9:59] is, it's a column, three columns. First
[10:01] column is the problems, the business
[10:03] problems your product or service solves,
[10:05] then that's what is the impact to the
[10:07] organization if those problems exist,
[10:09] and the last one is the root causes.
[10:11] What are the the causes of the problems?
[10:13] So, these causes create this problem,
[10:16] this problem creates this impact, this
[10:18] impact is why I've got to change, right?
[10:21] THEY GIVE US FIVE figures to help them
[10:24] express and I build this pick, and
[10:26] sometimes it takes five or six weeks.
[10:29] I have the CEO sometimes or the head of
[10:31] product marketing, the head of sales,
[10:33] the um product development, and they
[10:36] still cannot figure it out. So, this
[10:39] isn't even a freaking salesperson
[10:40] problem. This is a company-wide problem.
[10:43] And sometimes in the first session, the
[10:46] CEO and other people like this we want
[10:47] they were they're so upset and angry
[10:49] with me, they want to quit because they
[10:52] keep saying stuff like I told you what
[10:53] the problem is. The problem is um they
[10:55] don't have visibility into their into
[10:57] their data systems, and they need to do
[10:59] this, they need to do that. And I say,
[11:00] "No. Why do they need to do that? What?"
[11:02] And they can't get the answer, they
[11:03] can't get the answer. Like, "How does
[11:04] this help?" And by the second or third
[11:06] one, they're like,
[11:07] Boo. Oh, like then the light bulb goes
[11:11] off, and they're like, "This is the
[11:12] greatest experience we've had in our
[11:14] company around sales ever. I don't know
[11:16] how we sold without it." But yeah, it is
[11:18] that was a long answer to a short
[11:19] question. They just we're just not wired
[11:22] to think that way.
[11:24] I was going to say but most most sellers
[11:26] aren't enabled at all with this
[11:27] information. One, because the leadership
[11:28] doesn't know to Ken's point, right?
[11:30] Every time you join a company, they're
[11:31] like, "This is our service. This is what
[11:33] makes it great. These are our
[11:33] competitors. This is how much it costs,
[11:35] right?" They never go, "The people who
[11:37] we sell to, this is what they're doing
[11:38] today most likely, and these are all the
[11:40] things that are going wrong, and this is
[11:42] what that impact that has on the
[11:43] organization, and that's why they should
[11:45] care about this in the first place." No
[11:46] one spends time thinking about that.
[11:48] It's almost like a light bulb. But so,
[11:49] it has to go pick up Gap selling to
[11:52] realize that. And that's sometimes the
[11:53] light bulb moment, but yet we're not
[11:54] teaching that as step one when someone
[11:56] gets on board. I'd much rather spend two
[11:58] weeks teaching someone everything they
[11:59] need to know about their potential
[12:01] buyers than anything about the product.
[12:03] Sellers would be immediately better, I
[12:04] think.
[12:06] So, so there'll be there'll be people
[12:08] out there now who are incentivized on
[12:10] just get a meeting in the diary. By hook
[12:12] or by crook, just get a meeting. Who
[12:14] cares if they've got a problem? Once
[12:15] we're in front of them, we'll be great.
[12:16] We'll blow their socks off. They'll see
[12:17] what we've got, and they'll love it.
[12:19] Why is that wrong, and what should they
[12:21] be doing, Will?
[12:24] I I would ask anyone who is uh taking
[12:26] that approach
[12:27] to show me that they're hitting the
[12:29] numbers that they want to hit, for one.
[12:30] I'll challenge you on that. Uh on them
[12:32] on that, should I say, not you, Zach. I
[12:33] know you get this stuff. Uh but the
[12:35] point being is
[12:36] um
[12:37] one, that's that's just getting harder
[12:40] and harder to do. So, you can keep
[12:41] trying that method. It might work every
[12:43] now and again, right? Just because it
[12:44] works doesn't mean it's the best way,
[12:45] right? And that is expiring very
[12:48] quickly. Like Ken mentioned at the
[12:49] start, people used to pick up the phone
[12:51] 99% of the time. And then they realized
[12:52] the phone was ringing pointless stuff,
[12:54] they started ignoring it. They got
[12:55] caller ID, right? People used to open
[12:57] every single one of their emails, and
[12:58] they realized 99% of them were trying to
[13:00] pitch them stuff they don't need, right?
[13:01] So, like that effectiveness will only go
[13:03] down and down
[13:04] the the longer you try that. Also, while
[13:06] you're doing that, you're just pissing
[13:07] everyone off. You're making the problem
[13:09] worse as an industry as a whole, but
[13:11] especially for your company. Like you're
[13:13] like some of these things are
[13:14] embarrassing what people are sending
[13:15] out, and it's a reflection of them and
[13:17] their company depending on what size of
[13:18] uh team they are, right? Like it's
[13:20] personal reputation, it's company
[13:21] reputation.
[13:23] There's a few companies that you'll
[13:24] probably think of right now when I think
[13:25] of who's got the worst sales reps, who
[13:27] annoy you the most. Can you think of a
[13:29] few? I'm sure and you're nodding, I can
[13:30] tell. I'm not going to name them, but
[13:32] come on. When I think
[13:35] for a name that I'm not going to name
[13:36] cuz I'm not in the business of calling
[13:37] people out too hard, um I just think
[13:39] wow, that they they they they're like
[13:41] they don't have a clue. And and that's
[13:43] within the revenue space as well,
[13:44] because most people who sell to us are
[13:45] trying to sell to sales people. It's
[13:46] worse elsewhere. When you're selling to
[13:48] a CTO and stuff, at least those people
[13:50] are like somewhat subscribing to
[13:52] methodologies and often have like good
[13:54] tools or like maybe you're looking for
[13:56] advice, some that may be misguided, but
[13:58] some of those people are actually more
[13:58] skilled than a lot of people who sell
[14:00] for people who sell to CTOs or CFOs,
[14:02] etc. It's actually worse in those
[14:03] industries.
[14:04] Zach Thompson, do you ever get sick of
[14:07] calling kebab houses and nanas when
[14:09] you're trying to speak to qualified
[14:11] decision-makers? I do. Well, I think I
[14:13] might have found the solution. 98%
[14:16] correct qualified data, which means when
[14:19] you're cold calling, you're always going
[14:21] to be speaking to the right person. Do
[14:23] you know what the solution is?
[14:25] It can't be Prospect.io, can it?
[14:27] Prospect.io, let me spell it for you. p
[14:29] r o s p e o {dot} i o. Now, if you're
[14:33] looking for great qualified data, then
[14:36] you know what the solution is.
[14:37] Prospect.io.
[14:39] I I what I say to people is very simple.
[14:42] Your question was
[14:44] um
[14:46] how did you put it? Why should they do
[14:47] it? Or or yeah, why is it wrong? I think
[14:50] the question was.
[14:50] >> Yeah.
[14:51] Yeah. I'm just going to just simply flip
[14:54] the script.
[14:56] How do you feel
[14:58] when somebody does something to get you
[15:00] to show up, and if you do show up, it's
[15:03] completely irrelevant and doesn't do
[15:05] anything for you, how do you feel?
[15:08] That's it. I just think one of the
[15:09] things Yeah, I think one of the things
[15:11] that society as a whole has completely
[15:13] got lost track of, and I we can blame
[15:15] social media, we can blame whatever the
[15:16] hell we want, is the level of
[15:18] self-awareness is [ __ ] pathetic.
[15:21] The level of self-awareness is so low
[15:23] right now. Going back to that CRO who
[15:25] runs a sales team of hundreds of sales
[15:27] reps that he expects to cold call, but
[15:29] is irate when someone cold calls him.
[15:31] The idea that somebody would actually
[15:33] basically push their sales team, get
[15:35] meetings by hook or by crook,
[15:37] knowing that they stop for a second when
[15:38] they experience that experience
[15:40] themselves, they are irate. I don't
[15:42] understand why people can't connect the
[15:43] dots.
[15:45] I don't get it. Call me old school, but
[15:47] there's certain things that are really
[15:48] simple for me. Run a business like you
[15:50] would want that business to be run on
[15:51] you.
[15:52] And if you want people to engage with
[15:53] you with sales who understand your
[15:55] business, who are genuinely curious, who
[15:57] genuinely want to help you solve a
[15:58] problem, and will leave you alone if
[16:00] they can't, will approach you only with
[16:02] a problem-centric attitude, and then if
[16:04] they realize that they can't help you
[16:06] after the fact, they give you a
[16:07] recommendation to say, "I can't help
[16:08] you, move on." If that's what you want,
[16:10] then why aren't you building a sales
[16:11] team like that? Help me understand that.
[16:13] It's just the lack of self-awareness and
[16:15] and accountability.
[16:17] I I I'll tack onto what Ken just said. I
[16:19] think it's more it's less excusable for
[16:21] a CRO because they see it all the time.
[16:24] They're getting hit by hundreds of
[16:25] sellers, thousands of sellers every
[16:26] year, right? A seller, I think, has
[16:29] a slightly I'm not going to say better
[16:32] excuse, right? Because they should know,
[16:34] right? They don't get exposed to all
[16:35] this [ __ ] as much as the our buyers do,
[16:37] our executives do, right? So, I don't
[16:39] think a lot of them even know what they
[16:40] don't know and how bad what they send or
[16:43] how generic or how much it looks like
[16:44] everything else or how the tactics and
[16:46] tactics and gimmicks they use make their
[16:48] buyers feel because they don't
[16:49] experience as much themselves because
[16:50] they're not in a position where
[16:52] hundreds of sellers are vying for their
[16:53] attention every single day week.
[16:56] That's fair.
[16:56] >> The other interesting thing sellers are
[16:58] up against now, and the lack of
[17:00] self-awareness probably doesn't help
[17:01] this, is the comment Claude bros on
[17:04] LinkedIn, right? And between I can get
[17:07] access to all your enriched waterfall
[17:10] empowered data, and then I can put it
[17:12] all in Claude and personal outreach you.
[17:16] It feels like there's a narrative now
[17:18] that, "Oh, you don't need to prospect
[17:20] anymore because AI can just do it for
[17:22] you." I'll kick off with with you, Will.
[17:24] What are your thoughts on that?
[17:27] Okay. I think some of those things are
[17:28] very short-lived. You do it once, it
[17:30] might work for two weeks, and then what,
[17:31] right? So, there's that piece. I would
[17:33] also say I don't I'm not against using
[17:34] tools like Claude and
[17:36] Clay and things to like build myself
[17:38] better lists. It helps me speed a whole
[17:39] lot stuff up, right? But I think even
[17:42] when you're using tools like these, if
[17:43] you don't understand why you're using
[17:44] them and what a good output looks like,
[17:46] then you're only going to scale crap
[17:48] again, right? So, if you're if you're
[17:50] using it to do more of what you're
[17:51] doing, which is probably already bad,
[17:52] then that's not going to be good. I
[17:53] think you can use tools like these very
[17:54] powerfully if you know
[17:56] uh the things that we mentioned. Who's
[17:57] the best target? What makes them a good
[17:59] target? What's the problem they be
[18:00] facing? What are the signs they might be
[18:01] facing that problem? And then what are
[18:03] the fundamental like best practices that
[18:05] break up the sound that's actually going
[18:06] to get opened, read, or picked up and
[18:08] listened to.
[18:11] Will's right. It
[18:12] Will's right. AI is just an engine right
[18:14] now.
[18:15] As much as we like to think that AI is
[18:16] thinking for us, it's not. It's just an
[18:18] engine, right? Especially the the for
[18:21] lack of a better word, the public ones,
[18:22] Claude or chat. You push them enough,
[18:24] they'll tell you whatever the hell you
[18:24] want to hear, right? Like I I I used to
[18:26] use them, and I would get I stopped as
[18:28] much because it would just always
[18:29] default to what I wanted to hear, and
[18:31] then I would turn around and give the
[18:31] exact same prompt to my daughter or to
[18:33] someone in my company and say, "What
[18:35] does it tell you?" And it's an entirely
[18:36] different message. I'm like, "I [ __ ]
[18:37] you." Right? Like I don't I don't want I
[18:38] want the truth. I would give you THE
[18:39] GIVE ME THE TRUTH. I WANT YOU to be
[18:41] smarter than me, and it's not. So, until
[18:43] it starts figuring it out for you, which
[18:46] is still down the road, you have to put
[18:48] in a good framework.
[18:50] So, if these bros,
[18:52] you know, I'll just say it this way,
[18:53] aren't using a Gap selling framework,
[18:55] right? In other words, what are the
[18:56] actual problems of this type of person?
[18:58] And this type of person, to Will's
[18:59] point, is the um the person we're
[19:01] targeting. We know that this IC is our
[19:03] perfect IC. And then so, you say, "Okay,
[19:05] what are the business problems this
[19:06] person is dealing with on a regular
[19:08] base? How is this negatively affecting
[19:09] their life?" Maybe drop the pick, and if
[19:11] you've done a good one, IF YOU'RE DOING
[19:12] THAT, I LOVE IT. DO IT ALL DAY LONG
[19:14] BECAUSE THAT'S RELEVANT. If it's going
[19:15] to help you write a better email cuz it
[19:16] gives you better insights into the
[19:17] problems, the impacts of that person's
[19:19] job, all day long. BUT THEY'RE NOT. I
[19:21] already know this.
[19:22] I already know this. Even people read
[19:24] OUR READ THE BOOK,
[19:26] Gap selling, get it wrong because oh,
[19:28] first take turns and I got it. I'm a
[19:29] [ __ ] genius. Let's go. No, it's a lot
[19:31] more nuanced than people understand.
[19:33] Even Will, who read it and loved it.
[19:35] When he came onto this company, went
[19:36] through some of the training, he's like,
[19:38] "Okay, this is and I don't I don't want
[19:40] to speak for him, but executing this is
[19:42] next level. Next level." So, yeah,
[19:45] they're just putting [ __ ] in and getting
[19:46] [ __ ] out. That's the short answer.
[19:49] I've been seeing this AI version of
[19:50] Keenan on LinkedIn. I'm glad we've got
[19:52] the the real deal today.
[19:54] Cuz you're giving us what you think.
[19:55] >> It's got It's really good, isn't it?
[19:56] >> it, but I've seen it. I've and I've seen
[19:58] some of it.
[19:58] >> All right. OKAY, HERE'S MY QUESTION.
[19:59] YOU'VE SEEN IT. Why haven't you gone and
[20:01] tried it? It's 100% free. Why haven't
[20:03] you gone and tried it?
[20:03] >> I swear I clicked it and it tried to get
[20:05] my bank details or something. No, it's
[20:08] 100% free. Try again.
[20:09] >> All right. Okay. Okay. This evening.
[20:11] It is smarter than me. I'm not kidding.
[20:14] Will, is that not a fair statement?
[20:19] He's thinking about it.
[20:20] Yeah, no. Keep I'm I I want the truth
[20:22] from the guy. So, to tell everybody what
[20:24] you were thinking.
[20:24] >> it smarter? It's certainly more
[20:25] accessible than you, uh for 
[20:27] one. And I work on your team. But
[20:31] Um
[20:32] but I I I would also say like again,
[20:34] even with that, it's primed with the
[20:36] knowledge you need, it's still going to
[20:37] depend on what you put in, right? And
[20:39] sometimes you need someone to ask you a
[20:40] question. It's very good at doing that,
[20:41] AI's the way that you've got that zap,
[20:43] you know, by the way. But I would say
[20:45] you often are sometimes just a little
[20:47] better at asking me the question that
[20:48] makes me realize the real problem.
[20:50] Um
[20:51] but generally
[20:53] keeps me in line.
[20:55] It's good. It is off the charts. You
[20:56] don't have to set it up. You don't have
[20:58] to like put all this stuff in and train
[21:00] it and all that. You just got to give it
[21:01] a like three answer three or four
[21:03] questions up front. Then you can have a
[21:06] deal with your strategy with it. You can
[21:07] have it help you evaluate an email
[21:09] you're doing. It'll help you assess a
[21:10] sequence. It'll ask you a [ __ ] ton of
[21:12] questions. It'll rewrite the sequence
[21:13] for you. Like it will pretty much do
[21:15] everything, bro. Has it got Has it got
[21:17] that bollock you shake you energy that
[21:19] we like? It does, yes.
[21:21] >> 
[21:22] >> There you go. Um I want to talk to you
[21:24] both about the psychology of attention.
[21:26] We'll probably maybe like lean into cold
[21:29] calling first because that's where our
[21:31] our background is and then maybe we can
[21:33] talk about um email and LinkedIn and
[21:35] stuff like that. So, the psychology of
[21:37] attention when it comes to prospecting
[21:39] probably gets batted around on LinkedIn
[21:41] a lot. When you think about gap
[21:44] prospecting, where where do you start
[21:47] when it comes to gaining that attention
[21:48] by picking up the phone straight away?
[21:52] So, I think
[21:54] we've been trained to look You We all
[21:56] heard that same same phrase pattern
[21:58] interrupt, right? And everyone knows
[22:00] that's how you get attention by
[22:02] sounding different to everyone else,
[22:03] right? I think everyone focuses so
[22:04] heavily on trying to find the best
[22:05] pattern interrupt, they stop focusing on
[22:07] like what's the opposite of pattern
[22:09] interrupt? What is the pattern? All
[22:10] right, I think people need to recognize
[22:11] that before they can truly interrupt the
[22:12] pattern
[22:13] correctly. Otherwise, they're just using
[22:15] a gimmick that they might have learned
[22:16] somewhere else, right? Um the few ways I
[22:18] think we we we mention and break it down
[22:20] in the book you can do that is number
[22:21] one is that if you have any level level
[22:22] familiarity, if your dad calls you,
[22:25] depending on your relationship with your
[22:26] dad or your mom or your sister or your
[22:27] friends or your wife, right? Um
[22:30] if they call you, you don't hang up on
[22:32] them and ignore that call, right? So,
[22:34] the number one thing you can do is look
[22:35] for familiarity because that circumvents
[22:37] the need to even get someone's attention
[22:39] if you can get something familiar. Not
[22:41] necessarily that you're their brother or
[22:42] sister, not even that they're your
[22:43] customer, maybe even that you work with
[22:45] someone that they definitely know
[22:46] already. That's a way to get
[22:47] familiarity. You circumvent the whole
[22:49] attention thing when you get start
[22:50] hitting people that people recognize in
[22:52] their world, right? Uh whether it be a
[22:54] name or referral or whatever it is. The
[22:56] other things you can do, we break down
[22:58] three other ways. Number one is open a
[23:00] loop, right? So, in the world of cold
[23:03] calling to make it real for you, I like
[23:04] to say to people these days, "Hey, it's
[23:06] I don't even say my name up front cuz
[23:07] they'll immediately just go, 'Who's
[23:08] that? What?' and they start getting
[23:09] confused. I just go,
[23:11] 'Hey, um Jack, taking a look at the warm
[23:13] website, had a question for you. It's
[23:16] Will over at Sales Growth. You got a
[23:17] moment to help me out?' So, it's it's
[23:18] simple as that. Not much I change, but
[23:20] the fun fundamental of it is that I'm
[23:22] ask I'm saying I have a question for
[23:23] you. I'm showing that I've done a little
[23:24] bit more than most people probably have
[23:25] when they reach out to you. And they
[23:27] think themselves,
[23:28] 'What question is that What's he seen on
[23:30] my website? What question do you have?'
[23:31] And that creates intrigue in that sense,
[23:33] right? So, that's one example. It's kind
[23:34] of opening a loop uh that you don't
[23:36] close cuz people don't like unfinished
[23:37] business. That's one example we could
[23:39] use. There are a couple more that we go
[23:40] through in the book as well.
[23:42] I think
[23:43] Keenan, anything to add on that? When
[23:44] you're thinking you've got you've got
[23:46] maybe 5 10 seconds before some CRO says,
[23:49] "Enough of this bullshit." Like how are
[23:51] you capturing that attention?
[23:53] I like to combine a problem with the
[23:55] root cause right out of the gate.
[23:57] Right? So, in today I might do one that
[24:01] says, "Okay, I've talked to a number of
[24:02] CROs right now and feels are taking
[24:04] longer because you're getting to
[24:05] budget." That's starting to really start
[24:06] to creep in, right? We're even feeling
[24:08] it. So, I might start with, "Hey, are
[24:10] you finding that your forecast" to the
[24:12] CRO, "Hey, are you finding your
[24:14] forecasts are starting to be missed
[24:16] because more and more of your deals are
[24:19] being stretched because your target
[24:20] customers aren't finding budget?
[24:22] If so, I'd love 15 minutes to talk to
[24:24] you about it. We don't talk that. We
[24:25] talk stuff with other customers and
[24:26] something like that, right?
[24:28] What I like about that is if a CRO
[24:31] really has that problem
[24:34] and he or she says no,
[24:37] they are probably not very good at what
[24:38] they do or they're going to be the worst
[24:39] prospect in the world. So, it's a it's
[24:41] sort of like I hate to say this, but
[24:42] it's real. In the real world, a don't
[24:45] man usually over 50 do not like the
[24:48] doctor and don't go to the doctor. And
[24:50] so, they start getting symptoms and and
[24:53] they tell their spouses and kids, "Oh, I
[24:54] have A GO TO THE DOCTOR, PLEASE." "I'M
[24:56] FINE." RIGHT? AND NO, this is real. And
[24:59] then by the fine time they get to the
[25:00] doctor, the doctor's like, "Yeah, bro.
[25:03] Like you've got liver cancer and it's
[25:04] stage [ __ ] four. Why didn't you come
[25:06] to me when this and this was going on?"
[25:09] And then they're panicked. I mean, I've
[25:11] heard multiple stories like this. And
[25:13] then they're panicked. Then they're mad
[25:15] at the world. And then they die.
[25:17] Because they just for whatever reason
[25:19] And so, there are buyers like that who
[25:21] YOU PUT THE PROBLEM in front of them and
[25:23] they will just pretend or don't want to
[25:24] talk to you about it. But here's the
[25:25] part. They're the minority.
[25:28] If you do it right and you understand
[25:30] it's a CRO and you know today that deals
[25:32] are getting longer and you know it's
[25:34] because of budgeting and you put that
[25:35] out there, you are going to see a higher
[25:37] increase of people say, "All right, [ __ ]
[25:39] it. I'll give you 15 minutes." Right?
[25:41] Because yes, I'm experiencing this. Now,
[25:43] they may say, "Okay, what can you do or
[25:44] who are you?" But the point is you got
[25:46] them. You got them. The minute they want
[25:48] to ask that next question because yes,
[25:51] in their head. Let me do it this way.
[25:52] Sorry, guys. Easier and faster.
[25:54] That those two questions caused what?
[25:58] When I asked those two questions, what
[26:00] does it force the person to do?
[26:04] Reflect.
[26:05] Reflect.
[26:06] Reflect.
[26:08] If you can ask a buyer a question that
[26:10] forces them to reflect,
[26:13] "Am I having longer sales cycles?
[26:15] Is it because people are extending
[26:17] budget and budget issues and they're
[26:18] holding on? Yes, I do. I don't like
[26:21] that. Maybe I should give this person an
[26:24] extra minute or two."
[26:27] So,
[26:28] the the language that we're using at the
[26:29] start of this call,
[26:31] am I trying to make it as
[26:33] industry specific as possible so that
[26:35] they feel like I'm some sort of expert
[26:37] in that space or am I trying to make it
[26:38] sound as human as possible so I sound
[26:41] like they're someone they can complain
[26:43] to on the therapy couch? What's the
[26:44] What's the best route?
[26:47] You can't do If you do the first, the
[26:49] latter happens.
[26:52] Cool, give me an example.
[26:54] If I am addressing something that's very
[26:56] specific to you,
[26:58] Mhm. then I sound human.
[27:01] I I can't I can't accomplish
[27:04] The second happens automatically, right?
[27:09] So, I sound human if I'm like, "Hey, are
[27:10] you like are you really experiencing
[27:13] long sales cycles because budgets are
[27:16] getting squeezed and customers are
[27:17] taking longer to decide?"
[27:20] You can't not feel human for that cuz
[27:21] it's real. What do you think, Will?
[27:25] I think you got to be aware of what
[27:26] things makes makes things not sound
[27:28] human, all right?
[27:30] Uh and that that will immediately mean
[27:31] that you naturally avoid those things
[27:34] that sound robotic as hell. So, to
[27:35] Keenan's point about the problem thing.
[27:37] So, we we go into the In the book, we
[27:39] talk about these this this concept of
[27:40] two sales. So, to your point, we we've
[27:42] been focused entirely on that getting
[27:44] someone's attention, the whole point.
[27:45] The second sale, once you have someone's
[27:46] attention, means you then have to get
[27:47] them interested enough to take action
[27:49] and spend some more time with you,
[27:50] right? If you're on a cold call, you
[27:51] want to book a meeting. If you're on an
[27:52] email, you want them to check something
[27:53] out or book a meeting with you, whatever
[27:55] it may be. That's the action. The
[27:56] attention's only the first bit. I can
[27:58] actually get attention very easily if I
[27:59] wanted to.
[28:00] Just go
[28:01] I could just pick UP THE PHONE.
[28:03] THEY'D BE LIKE, "WHAT THE HELL'S GOING
[28:04] ON?" Like I've got their attention now,
[28:05] right? But that doesn't mean like
[28:07] anything good is going to come from
[28:08] that. They'd be like, "What the hell is
[28:09] wrong with you?" If I was out on the
[28:10] street, I could get loads of people to
[28:12] look at me by just being naked or
[28:13] wearing something stupid, right? That
[28:15] doesn't mean anyone's ever going to work
[28:16] with me, right? So, there's two things.
[28:17] And if you go about getting attention
[28:18] the wrong way, you're going to only [ __ ]
[28:20] up your ability to So, you can get
[28:21] someone's attention with these gimmicks
[28:22] and these these um
[28:24] these these kind of like out there
[28:25] pattern interrupts. I I saw an email
[28:26] recently. Like I saw you on Jeffrey
[28:27] Epstein's list. I Did you see that on
[28:29] LinkedIn? Someone sent that email to
[28:31] 1,000 people. I'm sure they got loads of
[28:32] attention, but it doesn't mean they got
[28:33] any interest off that. It's going to
[28:35] someone go, "Well, I'm going to open
[28:36] that.
[28:37] What the fuck?" It doesn't mean
[28:37] anything, right? So, you got to do it in
[28:39] a way that doesn't sabotage your ability
[28:41] to get interest. Um and generally, the
[28:43] ways to get attention are uh
[28:45] Okay. So, to go back to the earlier
[28:47] thing, the problem that's that that
[28:48] we've caused
[28:50] buyers to have by basically hammering
[28:51] them with crappy outreach is that they
[28:53] now ignore us without thought, right?
[28:56] Um so, they're basically in their chi- I
[28:59] like to call it chimp brain um because I
[29:01] I read something once. They're basically
[29:02] reflexing. They're They're reacting.
[29:04] They're like a knee-jerk to everything
[29:06] we do until we actually get them to stop
[29:08] and think. And then they're actually
[29:09] using their conscious brain, which
[29:11] requires thought, which requires
[29:12] reflection, which requires them to stop
[29:14] and actually consume what we have. If we
[29:15] jump straight to the interest piece
[29:17] without getting them to reflect first,
[29:19] they will just ignore us, right? I could
[29:20] shout all I wanted about how free the
[29:22] gift cards are. If I haven't actually
[29:24] got them to get out the mode of just go
[29:25] away, swat,
[29:27] then that would never ever work, right?
[29:29] So,
[29:31] attention is the first piece of then
[29:33] getting interest. And attention often
[29:35] happens when you can ask someone a
[29:38] question, show that you know them.
[29:40] That's a level of familiarity like we
[29:41] mentioned before as well. If you can
[29:43] share things that are familiar to their
[29:44] world, not just maybe names or people
[29:46] they know, that's another way to get
[29:48] someone's attention when they recognize
[29:49] something that looks different. But most
[29:51] of all, the most important thing you can
[29:52] do is avoid all the crap that everyone
[29:54] else is doing because everyone else is
[29:55] doing it, right? The same subject lines,
[29:58] the same cold call openers, the same
[30:01] >> 
[30:01] >> um
[30:02] the first same first line of the email,
[30:04] right? I hate to harp on it cuz I've
[30:05] done it for 3 years now, but I hope this
[30:07] finds you well. But like that's a very
[30:08] extreme example. You might not be doing
[30:09] that, but you're probably doing
[30:10] something
[30:11] in absence of that that other people are
[30:12] still doing that gets them immediately
[30:13] pegged and deleted or ignored or hung up
[30:16] on without any second thought.
[30:18] Oh god, I'm so tired. I've just been
[30:20] talking to qualified prospects all day
[30:22] without any wait time. How have you been
[30:24] doing it? Cuz I've been cold calling
[30:25] people on my mobile and I reckon I've
[30:27] spoke to one person. No, no, no. Stop
[30:29] that right now and use Nooks.ai. Why?
[30:32] What what what what does Nooks do? It
[30:34] finds me the right people to call and it
[30:36] calls them and it connects with them
[30:38] over and over and over again. So you're
[30:41] saying it's Nooks.ai and I can just be
[30:44] speaking to qualified decision makers
[30:46] all the time. No, with a better
[30:47] connection rate. Wow, Nooks.ai. So this
[30:51] um
[30:52] maybe self-awareness epidemic of people
[30:55] not being as perhaps self-aware as they
[30:57] once were, you you've got my attention,
[31:00] but then you're
[31:01] the risk you've got is perhaps I'm not
[31:03] very self-aware or self-aware when it
[31:05] comes to my business. So I don't really
[31:07] know what's going on. Like I have a
[31:09] feeling like some things aren't working
[31:11] as well as they could, but most
[31:13] businesses are like that. It's the
[31:14] economy. It's AI. What's it got to do
[31:16] with me? Nothing nothing will change it
[31:17] anyway.
[31:18] What what's the path that you then take
[31:20] me on once you're through that first
[31:22] sale? You've got my attention to get me
[31:24] to self-awareness and and reflection.
[31:29] That's where I find the most the
[31:31] reflection has the most power, right? So
[31:33] you ask someone a question or introduce
[31:35] new information that makes them consider
[31:38] that in the context of their world.
[31:40] Like that's that's where you got from,
[31:41] right? You could do that in a few ways.
[31:43] You can do that by talking about people
[31:44] just like them, right? So like I I've
[31:46] I've had I've had a few vehicle calls,
[31:47] guys. I think you go I I get invited on
[31:49] and then by a lot of successful business
[31:50] owners
[31:51] who when they're honest with themselves
[31:53] are facing one of this problem or this
[31:54] problem, right? You but you can't do
[31:56] that straight away cuz they'll hang up
[31:58] on you basically, right? You have to
[31:59] first get them engaged in the
[32:00] conversation to even listen to that. But
[32:02] then introduce the information and ask
[32:03] them a question. That's often the best
[32:05] way to get them to stop and think and
[32:06] reflect and decide. And then if they
[32:09] give that to you in a call, especially,
[32:11] you can then expand on that. Okay, so
[32:13] how often is that happening? When was
[32:14] the last time that happened? Tell me
[32:15] more about that. You said It sounds like
[32:17] you thought about this before. What did
[32:18] you do? Okay, and how and did I'm I'm
[32:20] assuming that didn't work out too well
[32:21] or can you tell me what happened when
[32:22] you did that? But you're getting them
[32:23] into this position where they're it's
[32:25] all facing about them instead of
[32:26] considering anything you have to offer
[32:28] them. And in emails a little more tough
[32:29] to do because it's not a two-way, but
[32:31] similar nature you can ask a question in
[32:33] email up front that gets them to reflect
[32:35] or you can introduce facts, figures,
[32:37] uh information that other people have
[32:40] have have been willing to accept or see
[32:41] or notice and that will then get them in
[32:43] the same stages well.
[32:46] The
[32:47] one of the things we put out in the book
[32:48] is symptoms and catalysts. So I I like
[32:50] to to use this
[32:53] metaphor? Story, we'll go with it. Um
[32:56] that I I did even before gap prospecting
[32:58] and it's the marriage question.
[33:00] Okay? So if you ask the average marriage
[33:03] person person who's married, okay, the
[33:05] average, not the person who's who's
[33:06] about to get divorced and they're still
[33:07] married, but they're they know they're
[33:08] out. You say, "Are you happily married?"
[33:11] About 85 90% of the time they will say
[33:13] yes.
[33:15] Okay? Now,
[33:17] with no matter what in no matter what
[33:19] environment you're in,
[33:21] I don't care if it's school and grades,
[33:23] I don't care if it's a marriage and and
[33:24] happiness, I don't care if it's um the
[33:27] community you live in,
[33:28] there are always very clear
[33:31] symptoms or environments that tell us or
[33:35] that we are aware of, whether we want to
[33:36] admit them or not, that if we're forced
[33:39] to reflect on will lead us to that
[33:41] answer whether we want to get there or
[33:42] not. Okay? So what the one I like about
[33:45] marriage is like, you know, don't either
[33:46] of you answer this, but if I say, "You
[33:47] happily married?" Like, "Yes, I am." I
[33:49] say, "Great. Let me ask you a couple of
[33:50] questions." And you don't even have to
[33:51] answer the questions. That's what I like
[33:52] so much about this. All I have to say
[33:54] is, "Let me ask you this. When is the
[33:55] last time one of you slept on the couch?
[33:58] When is the last time one of you called
[34:00] the other one a name in an argument?
[34:01] When is the last time or the frequency
[34:03] of intimacy? When is the last time you
[34:05] got in a huge fight over the kids? When
[34:06] is the last time one of you
[34:08] um bought the other one flowers or did
[34:10] something special? When is the the time
[34:12] that one of you just walked up to them,
[34:14] gave them a hug and said, 'I love you
[34:15] very much' for no reason whatsoever?"
[34:18] Now, and what happens is I don't need
[34:20] the answer. If either one of you are
[34:22] married right now, you're asking these
[34:23] questions in your [ __ ] head and
[34:25] you're then coming to the determine,
[34:26] "You know what? Good good ooh ooh I oh
[34:30] no, I haven't okay." I'VE LITERALLY DONE
[34:32] THIS IN training before and then I've
[34:34] had people write to me after the
[34:35] training not how great the training was
[34:37] or anything. Like, "You know what, man?
[34:37] That marriage thing got me. I went home
[34:39] and bought my wife some flowers. I
[34:40] didn't realize I wasn't doing this and
[34:42] that." I won. Reflection. Reflection. So
[34:44] the same thing with business. If you
[34:47] understand their business well enough, I
[34:49] can figure out what I think the most
[34:51] probable
[34:54] problem or root cause or symptom you're
[34:55] having is going back to the marriage
[34:57] one. If you're newly married, the
[34:59] problems are going to be different than
[35:01] if you've been married for a while. So
[35:02] if I know you've been married eight,
[35:03] nine, or 10 years, I know you're
[35:04] probably at that stage where the
[35:06] honeymoon's over when most people get
[35:08] divorced the first time and I ask
[35:09] questions like, "Have you found that you
[35:11] and your husband JUST DON'T CONNECT LIKE
[35:13] YOU USED to
[35:14] when you first got married?"
[35:16] Reflection. Yes, I hate it. I got you.
[35:19] You see what I'M SAYING? WE ALL KNOW
[35:21] THEM. THE sales people don't know them.
[35:23] They don't know to ask them. SO THEY
[35:25] DON'T GET A RESPONSE.
[35:29] Did that answer your question? Sorry.
[35:30] Well, I think it's beautiful on the
[35:31] kingdom, but I I feel like you can get
[35:33] away with asking those kind of questions
[35:36] on like on a we're on a team score or a
[35:38] face-to-face. We're in person. I've
[35:40] agreed here. How how how do you make it
[35:43] not feel like an interrogation if it's
[35:45] over the phone?
[35:48] It It's It's how It's how you start the
[35:50] first question.
[35:52] Right? So So if I get Let's use the
[35:54] marriage thing. If I get you on the
[35:55] phone and I know you're married, I know
[35:56] you're my my customer. I'm like, "Hey,
[35:58] um Keen and I'm a marriage therapist. I
[36:00] know I'm interrupting you. Can I get 2
[36:01] seconds to tell you why I called? Great.
[36:02] Yes. One of the things we help companies
[36:04] do is address certain marriages. Can I
[36:05] ask you a quick question? Have you found
[36:07] since you've been married this has
[36:08] happened or this has happened or this
[36:09] has happened?"
[36:13] They're reflecting. They're They're
[36:14] cornered now. If it has happened, I have
[36:17] a choice. I I know it's happened, but
[36:19] I'm still going to say no cuz I don't
[36:21] want this person to help me solve it,
[36:22] which is your you're entitled to it, but
[36:23] now you're lying to yourself.
[36:25] Or I know it has happened and I'm
[36:27] willing to give this person 30 seconds
[36:29] to help me understand why I should trust
[36:30] them in what's going on,
[36:32] right? Or it isn't happening. I say,
[36:34] "No, this has not happened. I have This
[36:35] is not This truly hasn't happened. So
[36:37] thanks for calling them out." So it's
[36:39] not interrogation. You You just It's
[36:41] less about the question and know which
[36:43] one you're asking.
[36:45] Right? And if it's really germane, it's
[36:48] going to stop them to think and that's
[36:50] the way This is what everybody doesn't
[36:51] get. The more powerful it is, I know
[36:54] you're married eight or nine years, I
[36:56] know historically that's where people
[36:58] get in the biggest trouble, right? And
[36:59] where the most first round of divorces
[37:02] happen. Then I know the next one I think
[37:03] happens at like 17 or 18 when the kids
[37:05] are leaving. Like those You see spikes,
[37:07] but those are the two big spikes. I KNOW
[37:09] WHY THOSE HAPPEN.
[37:11] So I ask a question that I know will
[37:13] land for the largest majority of the
[37:15] people I'm calling right there.
[37:18] I would also say Yeah, go ahead. to to
[37:21] keep pointing in
[37:22] You I see what you're saying, Jack, cuz
[37:24] when you call someone they're not going
[37:25] to immediately open up to you, right?
[37:26] Someone calls me and asks me about my
[37:27] marriage, I might tell them to [ __ ] off
[37:28] cuz none of their business.
[37:30] Um
[37:31] uh also cuz I don't have one anymore.
[37:34] Uh but let's not go into
[37:34] that.
[37:36] So many questions. Sorry. Even prior to
[37:39] that, right? If someone had have
[37:39] intervened at that point, which it would
[37:41] have been nice to have done cuz there
[37:42] was a few things behaviors that I could
[37:43] have There was a few things I could
[37:44] change. Was it worth changing? Maybe
[37:46] not, but that's that would have come in
[37:47] discovery in this example, right? Um
[37:50] but the
[37:51] the sometimes making it safe to say yes
[37:54] or no is well is a is a is a very
[37:56] applicable tactic. But so you don't have
[37:58] to come at someone accusing them of
[37:59] anything. You could say, "Look, I'm
[38:01] calling you because it looks like you've
[38:02] been married for about 10 years now. A
[38:05] lot of folks at that time find this
[38:08] problem pops up and it shows up because
[38:10] or in this way or because of this and
[38:13] that often ends up in ending this. Or in
[38:15] some of the cases that's not so much of
[38:16] an issue, this is. Now and and and I've
[38:20] heard you guys use a very similar tone
[38:21] to this, but then I've got or you going
[38:22] to tell me that you are you've never
[38:23] been happier, you and your missus or you
[38:25] and your husband, right? And I'm give
[38:27] give them a almost like make it okay to
[38:29] say no and therefore they're much more
[38:31] likely to say yes, but I've also led
[38:32] with other people, not me coming at you
[38:35] saying your marriage is [ __ ] I've led
[38:36] with facts. I've led with things that
[38:38] show that I might understand cuz a lot
[38:40] of the times people don't feel
[38:41] understood and that's why they're not
[38:42] willing to work with us.
[38:43] If you can do some of those things up
[38:44] front, you get your increase your chance
[38:45] of actually getting them engaged in that
[38:47] conversation and giving you answers.
[38:49] Nice. So we we have a um a process that
[38:52] we that we teach in internally that they
[38:54] have to tick all the boxes off before
[38:56] you can even try and book a meeting
[38:58] because we're in this meeting epidemic
[39:00] where people are trying to have a
[39:01] 2-minute call.
[39:03] Using this process, we found that
[39:04] actually most cold calls that convert
[39:07] later on down the line and attend and do
[39:09] all the good stuff that meetings should
[39:10] do is 10 minutes plus. So
[39:13] using gap prospecting,
[39:16] if you're selling marriage counseling,
[39:18] at what point in the conversation, what
[39:20] boxes do you need to have ticked for you
[39:23] to say, "Actually, I'm ready for the
[39:25] next steps. Let me propose to you."
[39:27] Excuse the pun, guys.
[39:30] Keenan, I'm curious on your thing of
[39:31] this cuz you and I did a training
[39:32] together and we had a we had a slight
[39:35] disa- disagreement about where who
[39:37] should take that point onwards depending
[39:39] on skill set as well. Was it a SDR, how
[39:42] qualified they are to have that
[39:42] conversation. So,
[39:45] I'll I'll give my I'll I'll give my take
[39:46] and I'm going to hear yours. I would say
[39:47] if you can and you have the skill set to
[39:48] do it, keep that call going as for as
[39:50] long as you can, frankly. Be wary
[39:51] because they might have to say, "Oh,
[39:52] [ __ ] I've got an emergency." Hang up on
[39:53] you and then it's lost, right? But like
[39:55] if you have the skill to keep diving
[39:56] into that and they're willing to talk to
[39:57] you, keep that thing going, right? Ask
[39:59] follow-on questions. Get into the gap
[40:00] selling questions that are taught in his
[40:02] in that book, right? In some cases
[40:03] though, I feel like some people struggle
[40:05] with that and or potentially talk
[40:07] themselves out of a meeting because they
[40:09] have a tendency to stop asking some
[40:10] questions and stop pitching. But you can
[40:12] go ahead.
[40:13] Yeah, if if the question is at what
[40:15] point
[40:16] is it should it be passed on to an AE?
[40:18] Is that the question?
[40:20] I would say more so like so I've cold
[40:22] called you, Keenan, and we're having a
[40:24] conversation. At what point do I now
[40:26] say, however my close would be, Keenan,
[40:29] great, we've been speaking for X amount
[40:30] of time, you've said X, Y, and Z, when
[40:32] would be a good time to sit down or
[40:34] would it be ridiculous? How do I close?
[40:36] When when the customer says, "Yes, I
[40:37] have this problem." I and ideally, I can
[40:40] say, "Yes, I have this problem. I'll
[40:41] take it." But ideally, "Yes, I have this
[40:43] problem. Here's why." So, yes, I'm
[40:46] unhappy using the marriage example, yes,
[40:48] I'm not happy with my wife. Now, or my
[40:50] husband, or it's I'm not happy with my
[40:51] wife or husband because I'm constantly
[40:53] sleeping on the couch or constantly
[40:54] fighting. Okay. We can help. And then
[40:57] you pass it on. I can do just one, but I
[40:59] prefer two. Usually, if I get a yes, the
[41:01] answer is one of two root causes that
[41:02] should be able to come very, very
[41:03] quickly. So, yes, we're missing our
[41:06] quota, or here's my favorite one, we're
[41:07] making quota, but only
[41:10] 55% of my team is making quota, which
[41:12] means they're covering for the other 50%
[41:14] and now on average, they're below 75,
[41:16] our discovery sucks. Great, pass it on.
[41:19] So, it's just Notice this goes ALL THE
[41:21] WAY BACK TO THE PICK.
[41:22] IT'S Notice this we don't change. We go
[41:24] all the way back to the problem
[41:25] identification chart. If the reps know
[41:27] what's on the pick, that's everything
[41:29] they should be All their outbound should
[41:30] be addressing that with the root causes.
[41:31] Get them to commit to one problem, one
[41:33] root cause, you're on your way.
[41:35] Okay, I might I might be missing this.
[41:37] So, are you saying on that point there
[41:38] doesn't need to be some burning impact
[41:41] of the problem, just problem, root
[41:42] cause? No, that's the job of the rep.
[41:45] Now, to Will's point, if you can get it
[41:47] and you got a talker, run with it. But I
[41:49] think it's very, very dangerous to have
[41:51] an SDR trying to do that, especially
[41:54] when they just interrupted somebody.
[41:55] Because that person could be very
[41:57] interested, but go, "I got to go. I got
[41:59] to go." So, like, yeah, yeah, you got
[42:00] me, let's schedule an appointment. Let's
[42:02] just remember what we're doing. We
[42:03] interrupted somebody.
[42:05] And the goal is to get to the meet with
[42:06] an AE and give them more time.
[42:08] Right? If if you're at a if you're at a
[42:10] uh uh uh a gym and there's a guy or girl
[42:12] you've liked for a long time, you go and
[42:13] talk to them, and they're like, "Yeah,
[42:15] I'll go out with you." And they want to
[42:16] get you into the gym and keep WORKING
[42:17] OUT. DON'T KEEP TALKING TO THEM. GET
[42:19] THEIR NUMBER AND LET THEM DO WHAT THEY
[42:20] WANT. TAKE THE WIN, BRO. TAKE the win.
[42:24] Okay, can
[42:26] permission to play devil's advocate,
[42:27] Keenan? Absolutely.
[42:29] >> Yep. For for us, there is, like I said,
[42:32] this process, but more so it's two
[42:34] boxes, right? And it's we're we're we're
[42:36] all singing from the same hymn sheet
[42:37] anyway. Do they have the problem, but
[42:39] more than that, are they motivated to
[42:41] solve it? So, the analogy I give, I
[42:43] don't know I might have even taken this
[42:44] analogy from your book, Keenan, so
[42:46] you'll have to call me out for
[42:47] copyright.
[42:48] If I said the um the cassette player in
[42:51] my car is broken, and you call me and
[42:53] say like we speak to people that having
[42:54] broken bits of their car. I go, "Yeah,
[42:57] yeah, yeah, that is broken, but I've got
[42:59] one of those Bluetooth devices. It It
[43:01] doesn't impact my life, but I do have a
[43:03] core problem because it is broken.
[43:05] Okay." There's no
[43:07] there is no level of motivation there
[43:09] will. And when we think about like
[43:11] attendance, remember we book meetings
[43:13] for a living. If there's no level of
[43:15] motivation, when I see my diary on a
[43:16] Monday morning, I go, "I've got that
[43:18] call about like CROs and data. Yeah, it
[43:21] was all right." That's that's kind of
[43:23] where we get into the motivation thing.
[43:25] What what's your take?
[43:26] So,
[43:28] I think what you you said there almost
[43:30] if you're a radio sales person,
[43:33] you what we This is something that
[43:34] happens all the time. This is where that
[43:36] there was a bit of this alignment when
[43:37] me and Keenan I worked together on this
[43:38] training because we work with a telecoms
[43:40] company in the UK.
[43:42] Um if someone says their internet is
[43:43] slow, that is not a problem, that is a
[43:45] root cause.
[43:47] THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE GOING to be like.
[43:50] We're not making it We're missing out on
[43:52] cut sales, right? That That sounds like
[43:53] an impact, but the we're not being able
[43:55] to pick up the phone to our customers.
[43:57] If you to your point, it's not
[43:59] that's the the problem if a of a
[44:02] cassette player solves isn't broken
[44:05] cassette player, it's boredom.
[44:08] So,
[44:09] or boredom or I don't know, maybe wasted
[44:12] time where you could be I I don't know
[44:13] what it might be, but
[44:15] because I've never sold cassette
[44:16] players, but I'd think about that. But
[44:17] the
[44:18] players only have root causes. That
[44:19] would almost be what I open with almost.
[44:21] Try and get to that sooner and then get
[44:22] that into Okay, because this broken
[44:24] cassette player, are you finding that
[44:26] your commute to work is
[44:28] mind-numbingly dull? Or or or I could
[44:30] think of probably a few actual problems
[44:32] that solves, but I think that's where
[44:34] people think they're being
[44:35] problem-centric, but they're actually
[44:36] being
[44:37] they're still they're just being the
[44:38] opposite of product-centric. They're
[44:39] just being They're talking about
[44:40] product-centric. If you don't have this,
[44:41] does that That doesn't mean you have a
[44:42] problem. Yeah, right?
[44:44] >> Yeah, what you do there, what you just
[44:46] described, my man, is you described a
[44:48] root cause, a broken process or tool. I
[44:51] don't have My cassette tape doesn't
[44:53] work. That's not a problem. Now, you can
[44:56] come in and you can If you choose Look,
[44:58] that's again, why we go back to the
[45:00] pick. We are
[45:01] disturbingly consistent here. The pick
[45:04] is everything. So, here's an intro to
[45:05] you guys. If you guys are going to
[45:07] continue Well, as you continue to do
[45:09] your um
[45:10] your lead generation for these
[45:12] companies, I implore you, please learn
[45:14] how to do a pick for every single
[45:15] customer. I beg you. And then give those
[45:18] picks to your callers. Because if you
[45:20] understand the pick, you will put If
[45:22] you're doing this radio fixing company,
[45:24] you will put a root cause in there and
[45:25] you'll get the customer If you choose to
[45:26] go root cause first, and the customer
[45:28] says, "Yeah, my radio doesn't work
[45:29] forever." And then you say, "Is because
[45:31] of that?" Go on to the problem side of
[45:33] the pick. To Will's point, is your drive
[45:35] mind-numbingly
[45:36] boring, or do you do you miss the fact
[45:39] that you don't have this music on your
[45:40] way to work or on long trips? If the
[45:42] answer is no, then you can say, "Why is
[45:43] it?" Well, "I just use Bluetooth now. I
[45:45] don't need it." Oh, then it then it
[45:47] doesn't matter. If the answer is yes,
[45:50] and you say, "So, is this something
[45:51] you'd like to solve and stop being
[45:53] bored?" Yes, are you open to 15 minutes
[45:55] to solve it? THAT'S THAT'S IT. When you
[45:57] What you use is the right tactic with
[45:59] the wrong emphasis. Nobody
[46:03] has motivation to solve a root cause
[46:05] without a business problem. And what you
[46:07] just described is what 90% of most
[46:10] people do when they think they're gap
[46:11] selling. They sell to the root cause and
[46:14] don't understand why it doesn't work.
[46:15] You cannot turn that root cause into a
[46:17] business problem, then you're hosed. And
[46:20] if it is a business problem, THE MERE
[46:21] FACT that they will meet with you is the
[46:23] motivation you need. If they say, "I I
[46:26] have a mind-numbing travel to work, yes,
[46:28] I will meet with you."
[46:30] That's the motivation.
[46:32] Whereas the impact is the kind of more
[46:33] sensitive layers that would come after
[46:35] that, right? That's where I think you
[46:36] can be getting danger zone of cold
[46:38] calling
[46:39] because you don't have the trust and
[46:41] you're also still a stranger. That's
[46:42] where it's better to book a meeting to
[46:44] sit down to discuss it in more detail um
[46:47] because you will create resistance. Like
[46:49] in the marriage example, if I went
[46:51] really deep on the impacts, they would
[46:52] get very personal, you know what I mean?
[46:54] I'm sure you guys found this when you've
[46:55] done discovery to a good good enough
[46:56] level. The hot The deeper impact you
[46:58] get, the more uncomfortable the
[46:59] questions get to ask, also the more
[47:01] uncomfortable that someone gets to
[47:02] answer them because they start getting
[47:03] really deep in like
[47:05] both quantifiable stuff they might not
[47:07] want to share with a stranger and and
[47:09] emotional stuff that they're probably
[47:10] bad about. So, I would say the problem
[47:12] is where you could get to on a cold
[47:13] call. If you push it further than that,
[47:14] I think you can run the risk of getting
[47:16] someone's defenses and their guard back
[47:17] up because they don't feel open to
[47:18] sharing that with you.
[47:20] We're a stranger, basically, cuz it's
[47:21] often very personal, deep stuff when you
[47:23] get into impacts.
[47:26] I had a guy say to me once, "Can we kick
[47:27] the note-taker out in a meeting?" And he
[47:29] We kicked the note-taker out, and he
[47:30] said, "I need to fix this cuz I'm
[47:32] worried I'm going to go to jail."
[47:34] I was like, "Whoa, that doesn't doesn't
[47:36] get any better motivated than than
[47:37] that." Yeah, exactly. Um
[47:41] the Guys, I'm not going to tell you that
[47:42] on a cold call, Lizzie. He's not going
[47:44] to tell me that on a cold call cuz he'll
[47:45] be like, "Yeah, is this recorded or
[47:47] what?" Depends who I'm speaking to.
[47:48] Might be on my burner phone. Um
[47:50] one of the the other interesting things
[47:52] that we're perhaps up against is ego,
[47:54] right? We've all got ego of various
[47:56] levels on calls. And I'm Keenan actually
[47:58] brought something up before at symptoms,
[47:59] people not maybe admitting to symptoms,
[48:01] you know, with like family and stuff,
[48:03] you know, you've been tired for ages,
[48:04] Dad, you need to go to the doctor.
[48:06] That first pass round of problems, you
[48:09] know, when you're in showing what you do
[48:10] and and you mention those first few
[48:12] questions that are centered around
[48:13] problems and symptoms and things,
[48:15] sometimes people just naturally go, "No,
[48:17] I I don't have any of those." even
[48:18] though they do. What advice, maybe we'll
[48:20] start with you, Will, what advice would
[48:22] you give to sellers out there who are
[48:24] hearing that first pass of no, I don't
[48:26] have any of those, and are just going,
[48:27] "Okay, I'll see you later then." and and
[48:29] hanging up?
[48:32] Give it to Keenan on this one. He's got
[48:33] a good thought on it.
[48:34] So, it
[48:36] it takes a it takes really I'm I hate
[48:39] when I have to answer questions that are
[48:40] so nuanced cuz I feel like I can't
[48:41] deliver value. Um
[48:44] the way you have to address those is an
[48:46] unbelievable understanding of the market
[48:48] you're playing in.
[48:50] So, my favorite meta I don't know,
[48:53] metaphor, simile, whatever. A simile in
[48:55] this one is we used to get this a lot
[48:58] when we'd ask people or reached out,
[49:00] "Look, are you um do you find yourself
[49:02] missing quota? Like, you know,
[49:05] a lot of our clients who use us, you
[49:06] know, I'm making this up, they miss
[49:07] quota."
[49:08] And they say, "No, we're fine."
[49:11] And what we started realizing was that
[49:13] was probably not the best question, but
[49:15] if it was a question we were going to
[49:16] ask, we had to be aware enough of how it
[49:18] actually worked. So, the follow-on
[49:20] question we would ask is, "Okay,
[49:21] fantastic, but let me ask you this
[49:22] question.
[49:24] What percentage of your team is at
[49:26] quota?"
[49:28] So, that's actually a problem underneath
[49:30] the problem. So, they themselves I don't
[49:32] have a problem. We make quota every
[49:33] year. Yay for us. But then you sit back
[49:35] and say, "Okay, great, but what
[49:36] percentage of the team is making quota?"
[49:38] Then all of a sudden they're like, "Oh,
[49:39] well,
[49:41] we're doing great. About 75% are making
[49:43] quota." Okay, that's still not bad. Let
[49:45] me ask you about the other 20%. To what
[49:47] percentage are they missing it?
[49:50] If it's only, you know, they're at 90,
[49:51] 95, then I agree, the guy or girl
[49:53] doesn't have a problem. But if it's,
[49:54] yeah, the rest of them is 75% or below,
[49:57] then I ask the question, "Okay, what is
[49:58] the average quota in the organization?"
[50:00] And they'll say, I'm going to make it
[50:02] was easy math, it's a million bucks. So,
[50:04] what you're saying, and then how many
[50:05] reps do you have? We have 20 reps, I'm
[50:08] going to butcher this math. What you're
[50:09] saying is 20 reps are only doing
[50:11] 700,000, which means they're leaving
[50:14] 250,000 on the on the table, which means
[50:17] then that's about $5 million that you're
[50:19] leaving on the table cuz not everybody
[50:20] is making quota? And they go,
[50:23] "Now that you put it like that."
[50:25] You see what I've done there? So, the
[50:27] way you address it when they say we
[50:29] don't have the problem is you have to
[50:31] understand how that problem can manifest
[50:33] itself.
[50:34] It's just like the marriage question.
[50:36] No, I mean, you kind of just asked the
[50:38] question we'd already answered, but I'm
[50:39] glad you did. It's just like the
[50:40] marriage question. No, my marriage is
[50:41] fine. Great, let me ask a question.
[50:43] When's the last time you did this?
[50:44] When's the last time you did that? I
[50:46] know that both of those are are
[50:48] indicative of not a perfect marriage.
[50:50] YOU STILL COULD BE HAPPY IN THE
[50:52] MARRIAGE. YOU SEE WHAT I'm saying? But
[50:53] me making you realize these two things
[50:55] aren't perfect, I should address those
[50:57] cuz if they're not killing me now,
[50:58] they're going to kill me later.
[51:00] Mhm. That's how you do it. You've got to
[51:01] understand how the problem breaks down
[51:04] and then dig into that to find out if a
[51:06] couple of those things exist and make
[51:07] them reflect.
[51:10] I I think what I'm more Yeah, yeah. I
[51:12] think I think what I'm more saying, if
[51:14] it feels like I'm asking the same
[51:15] question again, is more that you have
[51:17] lots of sales people who perhaps are
[51:20] looking for almost like the perfect
[51:22] call, right? So, they're making a call
[51:24] and they're looking for the guy that's
[51:25] like hand up in the air, yeah, yeah, I I
[51:26] have those problems. Right? And they're
[51:28] waiting around all day doing hundreds
[51:30] and hundreds of calls to get to that. I
[51:32] suppose tools to have in your in in your
[51:34] toolbox of people who naturally are
[51:36] going to go, "No, I'm I'm good. We've
[51:38] got something in place already. I'm I'm
[51:39] happy with what we're doing already. I
[51:40] already have a marriage counselor." Like
[51:42] those types of things. But I think what
[51:44] that's a really good point just to go,
[51:45] "Cool, sounds like you're all covered.
[51:46] Just before I let you go, how do you do
[51:48] currently do this? What do you do about
[51:49] X?" That's really good. Will, anything
[51:52] from you? When was the last time this
[51:53] happened? But you know, you see what you
[51:55] just did wrong? YOU SAID, "HOW DO you
[51:56] handle this? How do you handle that?"
[51:57] No. No. You're you're still CAUSING THE
[52:00] BUYER TO REFLECT without data. If I have
[52:02] plus what's If I have a marriage
[52:03] counselor, and I think everything is
[52:05] going great, but I ask you, "When's the
[52:07] last time you gave your your spouse a
[52:09] hug and a kiss for no reason?" Or when
[52:10] how when's the last time you sit on the
[52:12] couch? And when's the last time you
[52:13] called the other one a name?
[52:16] This isn't solution-oriented anymore.
[52:18] You see, everything you just asked is
[52:20] solution-oriented. Mhm. I'm asking you
[52:23] to evaluate your current situation. I'm
[52:26] forcing you to reflect on what is
[52:29] happening now.
[52:31] That you can't hide from that. I have a
[52:34] marriage counselor. I'm going there all
[52:35] the time, but I called my husband a
[52:38] [ __ ] yesterday, and I know that's
[52:40] wrong. So, something still isn't
[52:42] working. Do you see where I'm going
[52:43] here, my man? It's getting the buyer to
[52:45] reflect on what's not working. Once you
[52:48] get that string, then you pull that
[52:50] string. You're The problem is most reps
[52:54] don't understand. Will said this on the
[52:57] beginning of the call, and he was
[52:58] absolutely right. Most reps in most
[53:00] organizations don't understand
[53:03] that when you call your spouse a name in
[53:05] the in an argument, that is a bad sign.
[53:09] Most reps don't understand that if
[53:12] you're not intimate at least once or
[53:13] twice
[53:14] a week in a marriage, even if it's been
[53:17] 10, 12 YEARS, THAT'S A BAD SIGN. THEY
[53:20] DON'T know that, so they're not experts,
[53:22] so they can't ask the questions to get
[53:23] them to reflect. Most reps don't know if
[53:26] they're selling gong that if just cuz
[53:28] you're at quota, if only 70% of your
[53:30] team is at quota, that's a bad sign.
[53:33] They don't know, so they can't ask the
[53:35] questions.
[53:36] To to your point, Zach,
[53:38] uh if someone were selling lead
[53:40] generation, right? You call someone and
[53:41] say, "Hey, a lot of business owners are
[53:43] the stru- if they're honest with
[53:43] themselves, they're struggling because
[53:44] they're not getting enough people, or
[53:45] they're speaking to some people, but
[53:46] none of them are really moving forward
[53:48] cuz they're not the right people,
[53:49] right?" That might be cover- covering a
[53:50] couple of symptoms or root causes there
[53:52] in the opener. They go, "No, no, we have
[53:54] plenty of leads. We use a lead
[53:55] generation service, right?" Right?
[53:58] If we
[53:59] The worst thing we could do is to ask
[54:00] them about the lead generation service
[54:01] because just cuz someone has a lead
[54:02] generation service doesn't mean they
[54:04] don't have the problem that there's a
[54:06] lead quality problem or there's a lead
[54:07] volume problem, right? So, if we keep it
[54:09] entirely focused on that, long before we
[54:11] focus on the what and the technicalities
[54:13] of it, that will allow us to then get
[54:15] deeper. It's just asking a question a
[54:16] different way or asking a the next
[54:18] deeper question about the symptom that
[54:20] actually show up. Often times I think
[54:21] people object because we we we are too
[54:23] generic up front. If I call someone and
[54:25] say a lot of people are upset cuz they
[54:26] don't have enough pipeline or they're
[54:27] not winning enough deals, that's really
[54:29] broad. If I went deeper than that, I
[54:30] said a lot of people are finding that
[54:31] their reps are not getting as many
[54:33] meetings as they used to do because of
[54:35] some of the changes that have happened
[54:36] here, that allows them to relate to it
[54:38] more and there's more like they go,
[54:39] "Yeah, I do feel that a little bit." And
[54:41] then it comes into the question, "All
[54:42] right, so you mentioned that your your
[54:43] finding your reps' performance has gone
[54:44] down despite activity not changing. How
[54:47] long has this been an issue for?" And
[54:48] then I'm digging entirely into the
[54:49] problem, and I don't even want to really
[54:50] touch
[54:51] the what they're doing. I just want to
[54:53] talk about the problem uh on this call
[54:55] at least. The technical stuff can come
[54:57] later.
[54:58] Or it could come once they've agreed to
[54:59] a meeting, frankly. If someone say,
[55:00] "Okay, if
[55:01] if if it's anything like this,
[55:03] if we could show you how other companies
[55:05] have got around that exact
[55:06] deliverability issue or whatever issue
[55:07] we get to the bottom of, would that be
[55:09] interesting to you?" Great, yes. And
[55:11] then I can ask all the technical
[55:12] questions. So, you mentioned your reps
[55:13] are using Outreach, SalesLoft. You
[55:15] mentioned your reps are sending about
[55:16] 100 emails. I can get all that after it,
[55:18] but if I try and put that stuff ahead of
[55:19] the thing, I think that's often times
[55:21] where we lose people because the
[55:22] conversation's lost focus on the
[55:23] problem.
[55:26] Beautiful. Gents, I've I've absolutely
[55:28] loved this conversation. It's been
[55:30] incredible. The passion I think you're
[55:32] doing incredible things with with Gap
[55:34] Prospecting. If people want to pick up a
[55:37] copy, I'm sure that there are stores
[55:39] beginning with A they can get it from.
[55:40] What Where's the best way to go and get
[55:42] it? They have to beg us for it. They
[55:43] have to beg us.
[55:44] >> 
[55:45] >> But that So,
[55:47] if you're in the US, you can go on
[55:48] Amazon. It's going to be listing on
[55:49] Amazon in Canada, UK, and the rest of
[55:51] the world very soon. But in the
[55:52] meantime, we've got a link on our
[55:53] website where you can buy it directly
[55:54] from us because
[55:55] Amazon screwed us a little bit on the
[55:57] listing thing, so it made that meant
[55:59] that folks who are outside the United
[56:01] States are having a hard time getting a
[56:02] hold of it. But you can get it direct
[56:03] from our website, or you can go to
[56:05] Amazon and check if it's available in
[56:06] your country uh depending on when you're
[56:07] listening to this. Incredible. Thank you
[56:09] so so much for joining us today.
[56:11] Thank you, gents. It's always a
[56:12] pleasure. Was it meeting your
[56:14] expectations? It exceeded them, Kevin.
[56:16] >> Exceeded.
[56:17] >> Exceeded them. The passion
[56:19] >> through a wall.
[56:20] The passion. All right, guys.

===FILE=== PuZ6eTkMBgA - GAP SELLING EXPLAINED - Keenan.txt
https://youtu.be/PuZ6eTkMBgA
GAP SELLING EXPLAINED - Keenan

[0:00] welcome to another episode of the we [0:02] have a meeting podcast today we've got a [0:04] very special honor if you start out in [0:07] sales and your recommended books you'll [0:09] probably recognize this man's name if [0:11] not his face [0:12] amanus wrote a book that redefines [0:15] modern selling [0:16] and he does it in a way that we like he [0:18] talks our language today we're joined by [0:21] the great keenan keenan how are you i'm [0:23] good baby i'm good thanks for having me [0:26] no no problem thanks for joining us so [0:28] we always start off the podcast the same [0:29] way i'm interested to hear how you would [0:31] answer this so [0:33] if i introduce you to my grandmother i [0:35] left you at the bar with her and she [0:36] turns to you and she says what do you do [0:38] for a living how do you explain it to [0:40] her without putting her to sleep [0:42] oh easy i help people get the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] they [0:44] want done [0:47] you help people get and then she says [0:48] how do you do that [0:50] by listening to them [0:52] we love it we love [0:54] it um so as i said at the top before we [0:57] jumped in we're massive gap selling [0:58] funds you got to keep going you can't [1:00] stop there like that you got to keep [1:02] going [1:03] role play grandma let's do it is your [1:05] grandmother gonna say next she's gonna [1:06] say well what do you mean help people by [1:08] listening and i'm gonna say okay well [1:10] what is something that you you have [1:11] wanted you you haven't got yet something [1:13] you've always wanted to happen that you [1:14] don't have or what's something that's [1:14] going on in your life right now that you [1:16] can't stand you wish you would change [1:17] and she would start saying i don't know [1:19] my freaking grandson zach's a pain in [1:20] the ass he never comes and visit and i [1:22] said well tell me about when was the [1:23] last time he came to visit she'll tell [1:25] me i said when he does come to visit [1:26] what do you do when he when he doesn't [1:28] come to visit what's happening and i'll [1:29] dig in and say well have you ever [1:30] wondered that maybe he's this maybe is [1:32] that before she knows she's gonna have a [1:33] whole plan of attack to get you to come [1:35] visit and you're gonna do it because i'm [1:36] gonna understand why she why you don't [1:38] come visit how far away is she what [1:40] she's doing to make it happen have the [1:41] whole thing broken down and she's like [1:43] holy [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] i'm gonna go get zach to visit [1:44] now [1:45] and now [1:47] that's what i do and she's like wow [1:49] [Laughter] [1:52] wow i'd always visit she just feeds me [1:54] too much keenan so i suppose there's a [1:55] little there you go [1:57] maybe she's the other way around she's [1:58] like i don't want zach come over all the [1:59] time i'm on a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] pension i can't [2:01] afford to feed his ass i'm like why do [2:02] you think he comes all the time i don't [2:03] know do you feed him every time yes does [2:05] he want to cook at home no there you go [2:06] stop feeding him he'll stop showing up [2:08] save your pension see that's what i do [2:11] beautiful i love it beautiful she's an [2:13] old woman i'm scared she'd be having [2:14] like hot flushes at the bottom [2:15] [Laughter] [2:19] so so kira we're massive fans of gap [2:21] selling as i said at the top before we [2:23] jumped in the one thing that's that's [2:25] and maybe i've read this completely [2:26] wrong right so you go into huge depth on [2:28] discovery on demos [2:31] we're predominantly cold calling people [2:33] every day so we use a problem-centric [2:35] approach but if someone's trying to jump [2:38] in and cold-call someone what tips have [2:40] you seen that actually really work to [2:42] get across [2:43] what were you trying to solve [2:45] look i think cold calling is changing a [2:47] lot and and i will defer to you guys [2:49] because you do it every day but let me [2:51] start with asking a question i got 100 [2:52] bucks the longer you do this you're [2:54] finding that it's taking more and more [2:56] calls and more and more to creativity [2:58] and more more work to get people first [2:59] to pick up the phone and secondly to get [3:01] a valid meeting is that a fair statement [3:05] um [3:06] we we have as we've grown we've invested [3:08] in more tools to make it easier so it [3:10] might not be we've made our lives easier [3:12] with software okay you've made it easier [3:15] but even using this i'd be curious over [3:17] time using the software and all the [3:18] investments you've made if you're not [3:20] having to continually double down triple [3:22] down work harder and harder and harder [3:24] to get at least stay at least stay [3:26] consistent as far as the the convergence [3:28] the number of people that pick up the [3:28] phone etc so i'd be interested to see it [3:31] all the time but i'm convinced that [3:32] that's what's happening right so [3:34] especially as a dude who who started [3:36] selling in the 90s and i could cold call [3:39] all day long and talk to [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] 50 60 [3:42] people in a day like people picked up [3:44] the damn phone just starters right there [3:45] they picked up the phone so if i got you [3:47] to pick up the phone i was going to get [3:49] you to have a meeting with me right now [3:51] they need to pick up the phone so i [3:52] think that's the biggest problem with [3:53] that outside of that [3:55] um [3:56] the biggest tip i have with you if they [3:57] do pick up the phone is you just have [3:59] however your little script is you have [4:00] to acknowledge that you're interrupting [4:02] them you have to you have to say look i [4:04] know i'm interrupting you right and you [4:06] have to give them value for that [4:08] interruption to allow them to stay with [4:10] you so you've got to come up with an [4:12] approach a method a set of words a [4:14] script whatever you want to call it [4:16] that once you've acknowledged you're [4:17] interrupting them that gives them value [4:20] say listen i'm going to give you x [4:22] for 10 seconds 30 seconds 20 seconds [4:25] i don't care 15 minutes if that's what [4:26] you're asking for in the cold call but [4:28] make sure they understand what they're [4:29] getting for that time so outside of that [4:32] i don't think there's more you can do [4:34] it's it's not rocket science it's just [4:36] hard [4:37] well i think that's i think that's a [4:40] good point to because obviously and it's [4:42] probably best hearing we were on one end [4:44] the reason that we got you on our [4:45] podcast is i called called you keenan [4:48] and [4:49] the [4:50] so from someone that i don't know how [4:52] many cold calls you receive but was [4:54] there anything about that cold call that [4:56] you could kind of diagnose and say that [4:58] stood out and that is the bit that [4:59] people should be using in their cold [5:00] calls no i think i'd be perfectly [5:02] perfectly frank i don't even remember [5:04] the first call uh i think did i say [5:06] something like did you send me an email [5:08] on linkedin [5:10] no didn't send your name out [5:12] and i said i'm saying i'm super busy [5:13] call me in in the next period of time is [5:16] that what i did [5:17] yeah yeah so i'm not sure how do you say [5:19] i'm not sure i'm a good a good benchmark [5:22] because [5:22] um uh [5:25] i don't know why i picked up the phone [5:27] that day you just got lucky i have no [5:28] idea why you picked up the phone like [5:30] that [5:31] perfectly frankie anytime i was [5:32] absolutely super busy so [5:34] um i was like look i don't have time [5:36] like i you know and then you push it out [5:38] and you stayed on top of me um the other [5:40] part is as far as value is concerned [5:42] uh i do these podcasts randomly out of [5:44] this i don't have a strategy people [5:46] reach out to me all the time like can [5:47] you do it can you do it um the people [5:49] who are the most pushy i guess and those [5:51] who can at least demonstrate some [5:52] audience i'll do because they have value [5:54] to me people say oh i saw you in this [5:56] podcast i'll sell you on this podcast so [5:58] you know [5:59] um [5:59] i know you just got lucky i think [6:01] because there's a whole bunch of [6:02] people's podcasts i'm not doing right [6:03] now [6:04] yeah well i i'll take like you were very [6:07] you're very charming on the phone i i [6:09] use all i actually didn't have to use [6:10] that many tips i guess there's probably [6:12] not much that you can do to someone [6:14] that's been selling since the 90s you [6:16] were you're very charming and you said [6:17] call me back and i called you back and [6:19] you said let's do it baby i think i [6:22] personally think the biggest i do i [6:24] this is anecdotal but i think the [6:27] greatest asset for cold call is right [6:29] now is tenacity i see too many people [6:31] that just do a two or three um uh [6:34] two or three sequence you know cadence [6:37] or uh whatever and so i see all these [6:39] emails come across and [6:41] after two or three they're gone right [6:44] and [6:44] if they kept pounding the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] out of me [6:47] eventually i'm gonna say look i'm not [6:48] interested or i'm like i've been i [6:50] haven't responded because i haven't got [6:51] around to but there's actually something [6:52] i'd be willing to talk about but it's [6:54] just it's on the bottom of my party list [6:55] but if you keep pounding me you're going [6:57] to get me to respond i don't think [6:58] enough people have the tenacity to just [7:00] keep pounding respectfully keep pounding [7:03] respectfully keep pounding [7:05] just keep showing up [7:07] when do you think a cadence goes too far [7:09] then what's what's tipping over yeah it [7:11] does [7:12] i don't think it does oh [7:14] yeah unless the customer says beat it [7:16] minute the customer says look i'm not [7:17] interested stop don't pull the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] well [7:19] can i just no [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] off like i said no [7:21] you got what i wanted [7:23] and [7:24] you know look the whole would be a whole [7:25] better place if people who got cold [7:26] called or got um email cold called just [7:29] respond and said hey i appreciate it i'm [7:30] not interested in the sales person shut [7:31] up but what's happening is when the [7:33] cycle yeah the people try to be [7:34] courteous then the sales people think [7:36] it's an opening so they keep driving and [7:38] and digging in and and then the buyers [7:39] they [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] don't even respond to [7:40] salespeople anymore because they don't [7:41] respect the no [7:43] right so respect the no and that'll make [7:45] everybody's life easier you call a [7:47] thousand people and rather than getting [7:48] only uh you know 50 that actually [7:51] respond to you maybe all one thousand [7:52] respond to you and maybe 900 of them say [7:54] no thank you but at least 100 [7:57] have given you a chance as opposed to [8:00] 50 or 25 respond responding to saying no [8:02] and the rest don't doing anything and [8:03] now you're [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] spinning your wheels [8:05] for hours [8:06] right just everybody be authentic and [8:08] legit [8:09] you know buyers say nowhere yes no tell [8:11] us leave it alone [8:13] i absolutely i absolutely love that and [8:14] i think the way the way that we sell and [8:16] especially when we're on the phones we [8:18] are we're just disqualifying we just see [8:20] it we're calling you up we're seeing if [8:21] you have the problem do you have it no [8:23] cool thank you there's no pushing us [8:25] there's no neediness it's just [8:27] qualifying those people so i want to [8:29] speak to you about a certain word i [8:31] don't even know if it's in the uh the [8:32] oxford dictionary but it's a word i [8:34] think you are quite passionate about [8:36] it's word bant [8:38] b-a-n-t yeah so you're passionately [8:42] against bant aren't you yeah 100 [8:45] can you [8:46] tell us a little bit more about that why [8:49] it's stupid [8:52] go back to your grandmother's story [8:54] right [8:55] what did i say i do [8:58] said you help people get [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] done [9:01] yeah or achieve the goals they want to [9:02] achieve right [9:04] so how does bant help [9:06] me help somebody do that [9:09] bant helps me [9:11] fan tells me oh if you have budget good [9:12] okay you have a buddy you can pay me oh [9:14] you're authority good you're the person [9:15] that's going to be able to make the [9:16] decision so if i keep influencing you [9:18] you're going to buy from me and oh you [9:20] have a need okay great i can sell today [9:22] in time you're gonna get it down now so [9:23] i can tell my boss uh that it's gonna be [9:26] done at this certain time so i can count [9:27] on it for my for my uh pipeline or for [9:30] my commission [9:31] where the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] does that provide any [9:32] value to the buyer [9:35] can i play devil's advocate on that [9:37] bring it because i i i i wonder if [9:40] you probably are still getting those [9:41] things aren't you but just not as [9:43] explicitly as now can i talk to you [9:45] about budget now can i talk to you about [9:46] this i know you go into decision making [9:48] process but it's not as explicit you [9:50] probably are still wanting to find those [9:52] things out through the process i never [9:53] need to find out budget oh yeah walk you [9:55] through this they all come by default [9:57] this is why i knew gap selling was the [9:58] greatest selling methodology in the [10:00] planet because it did everything by [10:01] default so if you if you're able [10:03] to create something that makes [10:05] everything else happen by default you [10:06] knew they were the symptoms not the real [10:08] problem right so budget i saw some i [10:10] ripped into met well okay let me start [10:12] over i was i [10:14] i compared medic to to be uh medic to [10:18] gap selling and and i said the same [10:21] thing about medic right i said it's [10:22] pretty much all seller-centric not [10:24] buyer-centric right and the person said [10:26] well you can make [10:28] medic or budget or bant [10:30] um [10:31] uh buyer-centric and it says when i [10:33] asked them about budget i says looking i [10:35] can you tell me what your budget is i [10:37] want to make sure that we're within line [10:39] i hate for us to make an offer or a [10:40] solution that's beyond your budget so [10:42] you can share that with me and make it [10:43] easier for us to prepare something for [10:44] you and fit within your budget and i [10:46] said [10:46] i said [10:49] because that assumes [10:52] that there is a set budget that they [10:55] have to work within and if you get sell [10:57] and you actually understand the size of [10:59] the problem [11:01] the budget is in a direct correlation to [11:03] the size of the problem so if you [11:06] budgeted [11:07] five hundred dollars to fix your car [11:09] this year [11:10] and it ended up being a seven thousand [11:12] dollar repair and it's a eighty thousand [11:15] dollar cost you can't just scrap it and [11:17] you can't drive without it are you going [11:19] to pay the seven thousand dollars [11:22] yeah yeah you damn [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] straight you [11:24] are so i don't it doesn't matter that i [11:26] have only budgeted five hundred dollars [11:28] i have a seven thousand dollar problem [11:30] and watch this the cost of fixing the [11:33] seven thousand dollar prop i'm sorry the [11:35] benefit of fixing the seven thousand [11:37] dollar problem is 150 200 500 000 you're [11:40] going to spend the money so i never have [11:43] to ask you a budget when i've done a [11:44] complete discovery and i understand that [11:46] you have a three million dollar problem [11:48] your sales team is off by two million [11:50] you're you have high churn your average [11:52] sales price is declined 20 you know year [11:54] over year and i say hey [11:57] our it's going to cost you a quarter [11:58] million dollars to do the training with [12:00] us [12:01] and you're like well i only bought a [12:02] hundred thousand i'm like and you have a [12:04] four million dollar problem [12:06] go find the other 150 000 and guess what [12:08] they do [12:10] they go [12:12] because like holy [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] we have a three [12:13] million dollar problem hundred fifty [12:14] thousand dollars to fix it or 250 000 is [12:16] nothing i don't have to have a budget [12:19] conversation the problem [12:23] defines your budget let me just say that [12:25] everybody [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] paying attention the [12:27] problem defines your [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] budget [12:30] giant problem you're going to pay enough [12:33] to fix it tiny problem you're not so i [12:35] don't need to know the budget period [12:38] same thing with authority if i have a [12:39] giant [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] problem and you're not the [12:42] authority you're going to quickly go [12:44] tell hey tom we got a problem [12:45] you need to get in here you need to come [12:47] see this [12:48] right my kids my kids are not the [12:50] authority in this house if the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [12:52] kitchen sink is leaking all over the [12:53] floor they come running upstairs dead we [12:56] got a problem [13:00] i love it the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] problem drives the [13:03] authority it drives the budget and it [13:06] drives the timing hey man [13:08] if if i'm if you're losing let's stick [13:11] to [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] the water thing again it's [13:13] leaking [13:14] the the pipe is leaking right chip chip [13:16] chip chip it's annoying irritates me i [13:18] want to get it fixed i look i got a [13:20] podcast with you um i've got a meeting [13:23] here i'll get to it later [13:26] right [13:27] if all of a sudden [13:28] if all of what's my timing and getting [13:30] it fixed i don't know couple of weeks [13:33] size of the problem right if all of a [13:35] sudden that thing starts gushing and all [13:37] over the floor what's my timing to close [13:39] right [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] now [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] let's go [13:41] plumber get your ass over here my house [13:44] will be destroyed i can't mop it up fast [13:46] enough i don't know how to turn off the [13:47] water main let's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] go [13:49] the problem drives the timing don't [13:52] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] ask me what the timing is find [13:54] my problem understand the impact the um [13:57] equate what the cost of doing nothing is [14:00] over time and you know what the timing [14:02] is you don't have to ask the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [14:04] client that's a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] joke and every [14:06] person continues to argue it's not has [14:09] their head up their ass and they're not [14:10] thinking they're not [14:12] thinking [14:14] i love this i'm going to go have a fight [14:16] with someone in this straight after this [14:18] fired up [14:20] they can't do it like anything you want [14:22] to put a try like try to argue back the [14:24] problem drives everything [14:27] no i was playing devil's it's not [14:29] something we don't agree i mean the [14:30] in our world if we're cold calling [14:32] someone how can i someone for a budget [14:34] that they didn't know existed that they [14:35] didn't they've never explored that but [14:37] it's just ridiculous to ring someone up [14:39] and talk about something like well how [14:41] can i budget for this you've just rang [14:42] me i wasn't thinking about this five [14:44] minutes ago but you know so i completely [14:46] get your point and then the [14:48] you're big on decision making process on [14:50] you which i know is something in [14:52] challenger selling that they talk about [14:53] a lot as well of decision making's [14:55] changed so it's not just how do you make [14:57] a decision mr smith it's actually you've [14:59] got 10 000 people involved in the [15:01] decision-making process and how do all [15:03] those parts intertwine with each other [15:05] so actually decision-making process is [15:08] such a better place to start than are [15:10] you the decision-makers it's kind of [15:11] stupid to ask that right 100 [15:14] and another thing i mean so [15:17] again this is quite anecdotal for us so [15:18] one of our clients is a big tech client [15:21] and we're often at odds with them about [15:24] they believe that the discovery and the [15:25] demo should be all done in one call so [15:28] it should be [15:30] cold call [15:31] problem diagnostic piece that happens on [15:33] that initial cold call and then jumping [15:35] into discovery and demo that take place [15:37] and that call ends up being sometimes an [15:39] hour and a half that second call with [15:41] attention spans dwindling stuff we're [15:42] kind of saying is that the right way of [15:44] doing things but from your findings why [15:47] do you think it's so important to split [15:48] the discovery and the demo [15:51] because a properly done discovery for [15:54] almost [15:55] any product that you would sell b2b [15:57] can't be done in 15 20 30 minutes it [16:00] just can't [16:01] it just can't and even if it could be [16:04] now you have to scramble to figure out [16:07] how you what you're going to demonstrate [16:09] because you didn't know what problems [16:11] they were going to have you didn't know [16:12] what the root causes were going to be [16:13] you didn't know what the impacts were [16:14] going to be so you now you're trying to [16:16] scramble and see what you're going to [16:17] show them [16:18] right so you do a full discovery you [16:21] understand the problems the root causes [16:23] the impacts right you get the full [16:25] physical literal you want to get the [16:27] whole the gap defined and then you sit [16:29] down say okay based on what we heard [16:31] what is the optimal customized demo [16:33] going to look like [16:35] and you come up you come out and you [16:36] deliver a customized demo what people do [16:39] and i'll bet you a thousand bucks that [16:43] more than half if not more than 75 [16:46] of any organization that combines the [16:47] two they do the discovery and then they [16:50] do the demo and the demo almost [16:53] barely if at all even [16:55] addresses what they learned in the [16:56] discovery [16:58] yeah right so they'll do a discovery [17:00] they'll learn all the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] and they say [17:00] all right great let me show you the demo [17:02] and this is here this is the landing [17:03] page this is how your people come onto [17:05] the page and this is how people sign up [17:07] and this is how you capture their [17:08] information and i'm like is this a joke [17:10] right now [17:11] like i'm sure every software in the [17:13] world has a landing page or or a home [17:15] page whether you sign in and you give [17:16] your information and where the buyer [17:18] starts the journey i'm sure they do but [17:20] that's not why we're here we're here for [17:21] the meet okay if i need to know how easy [17:24] it is for someone to log on how easy it [17:26] is for someone to build an account or [17:28] where they start i'll ask that later [17:30] because that is not where my problems [17:31] exist so they go through the same disc [17:34] demo for everybody even though they're [17:36] doing discovery and you want to watch me [17:38] get fired up if i am meeting with you [17:40] and you do discover you ask me all these [17:41] questions i tell you the problems i have [17:43] and then you start demoing something [17:44] that's not addressing those problems i [17:46] will light you up [17:48] why the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] waste my time just why the [17:50] it's not a check box people discovery is [17:53] not a check box demo is not a check box [17:56] sales everybody paying attention out [17:58] there sales not a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] check box [18:00] business [18:02] everything you do in sales is a real [18:04] value that it deserves the time and [18:07] effort to do it right so if you're going [18:09] to do a discovery do it right be [18:11] genuinely curious and what the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] is [18:13] going on in their organization how it's [18:15] impacting people how why they can't fix [18:17] it themselves what happens if they don't [18:19] fix it what are the root causes causing [18:21] the problem in the first place what [18:23] happened what's happening in the [18:24] organization because it's existing how [18:26] is it impacting the organization as a [18:28] whole get all of that genuinely and then [18:31] legitimately and genuinely say hey we [18:33] can actually fix that [18:34] let us get back with you next month next [18:36] week i don't care and walk you through [18:38] how we would address [18:39] your issues and then when you come back [18:42] it is a customized demo that starts with [18:45] okay listen after hearing you you said [18:46] you were struggling with this [18:48] the main reason you were struggling with [18:50] this who you losing money is because [18:52] your current process takes too long it [18:54] has too many people it uh it requires [18:57] man manual processes etc let me show you [19:00] how we would handle this piece of the [19:01] process on our platform then you said [19:03] this let me show you how we would handle [19:04] that piece of the platform then you said [19:06] this let me show you we would do this [19:08] right then was it well that's all did [19:10] you see can you see now by replacing [19:12] what you're doing today doing it this [19:14] way would actually reduce that stop this [19:17] eliminate that therefore it's exceeding [19:19] um accelerating this and delivering new [19:21] outcomes yeah i can good great let me [19:24] show you the next thing [19:26] that's how you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] do it you can't [19:28] do that in an hour and a half with a [19:30] discovery and then jump right into the [19:31] demo [19:34] and to play devil's advocate what would [19:36] you say to say you're you're on the [19:38] other side you're working for a techcom [19:40] what would you say to the prospect if [19:42] they say look just just stop with all [19:44] the questions i just want to see how it [19:46] works okay great question i get this all [19:48] the time two things [19:50] again this is deep [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [19:52] okay we're playing the long game here at [19:54] gap selling because so many people think [19:55] when they hear gap selling and read [19:57] about it like oh yeah that's just like [19:58] spinner that's just like this we do that [19:59] no you don't we take it to a such a [20:01] deeper level that unless you actually [20:02] get in and learn it you don't know what [20:04] the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you're talking about so [20:06] the first one is if a customer says do [20:08] you stop with all the questions just [20:10] show me the product do you know what [20:11] they're saying to you [20:15] i feel vulnerable you're gonna you're [20:17] gonna [20:18] go kind of kind of but you know what [20:20] they're actually saying it [20:22] there's no value in your questions [20:26] in your questions just show me the [20:27] product [20:28] yeah no i can get out of here yeah [20:30] because the question you're asking they [20:32] are unable to process why is this [20:34] valuable why are you asking me what's [20:36] the point of these questions [20:38] right so that means that's the first [20:41] telltale sign that the question you're [20:42] asking are [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] pathetic [20:44] because they don't see value if they see [20:46] value in the questions they won't say [20:48] that but oh i get this right i get that [20:51] makes sense right and so they'll keep [20:53] going with you secondly though even if [20:55] they do say just show me the demo the [20:58] answer is really really simple [21:00] it's jack i appreciate you wanna see the [21:03] demo however our product does and solves [21:06] a myriad of different problems in a [21:08] myriad of different ways [21:09] okay and so my objective here is to [21:12] maximize our ability to deliver a [21:14] customized demo to you that will allow [21:16] you to see how our xyz software is going [21:19] to create the greatest value for you [21:22] with these potential problems because [21:23] you should know the problems right so [21:25] yeah asking for this time to basically [21:27] understand what the problems are how [21:29] they're impacting you and what's causing [21:31] them and through that i'll be able to [21:32] provide a custom demo watch what i do [21:35] here [21:35] however i get it if you're unwilling to [21:37] do that time if you don't have the time [21:39] to do that that's perfectly okay [21:42] i'm here when you want to do the dem [21:43] when you want to go through discovery [21:44] call me anytime i'll do it but if you [21:46] don't have the time i'm sorry but i am [21:48] uncomfortable [21:50] doing a demo [21:52] not knowing the challenges and issues [21:54] and what's causing them and i don't want [21:55] to waste your time [21:58] i like it music to my ears i love it [22:01] that was nice [22:02] when you say um [22:04] just while we're on discovery you say [22:06] you don't like the prospect to [22:07] self-diagnose so you don't like them to [22:09] kind of [22:11] what what do you mean by that because i [22:12] i i'm never sure what you mean because i [22:14] know a lot of people would say to [22:16] actually look like a therapist so let's [22:18] just say um [22:20] you're i sell running shoes right [22:22] and you're a marathon and i'm trying to [22:25] get you to buy sit and say well tell me [22:26] about your marathon right and you you [22:28] say oh yeah you know i'm trying to get [22:30] below three hours and i've been doing it [22:32] for years and and um you know [22:34] one of the problems i have is is far too [22:36] often towards the end my feet really [22:38] start hurting and getting really really [22:39] bad blisters [22:41] and i say to you really now why do you [22:42] think you're getting those blisters [22:45] i'm asking you to self-diagnose where [22:47] you're getting the blisters now [22:49] against other type of selling [22:50] methodologies i can live with it but i [22:52] don't like it that's a self-diagnostic [22:53] question [22:54] instead if i'm the expert i should be [22:56] able to ask questions around that [23:00] to highlight my expertise and help you [23:02] think of things you're not thinking [23:03] about so i might say hey let me first [23:05] and foremost we ask are you they are [23:06] these rough blisters that are happening [23:08] like no my feet are i don't know [23:10] anything about [23:11] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] heat [23:12] so we're gonna get you but the point [23:14] won't be lost right as are these [23:16] friction um blisters is because your [23:17] feet are [23:18] just aren't fitting in the shoe struck [23:19] and it's moving you're like no that's [23:21] what's driving me crazy i think it's [23:23] because you're gonna start to [23:24] self-diagnose yourself i think i just [23:26] think it's because of the um [23:28] uh the material right and i'm gonna be [23:30] like okay [23:32] tell me more about that and you're gonna [23:33] tell me more i said okay [23:35] that might be but let me ask you this [23:37] does it always happen about the same [23:39] time [23:40] and you're like yes i'm like okay all [23:43] right so it's more of a timing issue [23:45] this may not have anything to do with [23:46] your shoes actually [23:48] right and you're like really so now i'm [23:50] going to say [23:51] um [23:51] does it happen in certain races see what [23:53] i'm doing does it happen to certain [23:54] races or does it um so or certain [23:57] climates and you're like wait wait yeah [23:59] it always seems to happen i'm on the [24:01] northeast or in florida but it doesn't [24:03] happen as much in the west i'm like okay [24:05] so i think we got is a humidity issue [24:08] again this is [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] i don't know [24:09] anything about it but you see my point [24:11] i'll get you right there [24:13] notice the questions i'm asking [24:15] i underst well i'm pretending to [24:18] understand the world of running shoes [24:20] and marathons and so i don't need you to [24:23] diagnose for you i'm going to die um [24:27] diagnosed for you i don't need to do it [24:28] for you i'm going to do it and i'm going [24:29] to ask these questions around now how [24:31] much of an expert do i sound like when i [24:34] start asking those types of questions [24:37] hugely but then when you've gone through [24:40] that process there's not a [24:42] i'm going to present you a prescribed [24:44] solution does that does the prospect [24:46] have to still admit [24:48] okay i get what you're saying i do have [24:49] that set of problems and maybe i've not [24:51] thought of it in that way before yeah [24:53] they have to they have to at least um [24:54] concur that it could be that there are [24:56] many cases what you can do what i do [24:58] when i really know what i'm talking [24:59] about not making the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up but i would [25:00] say based on what i've heard here i [25:02] think what you're real this is the root [25:04] cause the real issue here isn't the shoe [25:07] fit [25:07] it's the humidity and so therefore if [25:09] that is it and we can try it we can [25:11] practice we can do a trial right if that [25:13] is truly it [25:14] then new shoes isn't going to solve it [25:18] yeah i would consider trying socks and [25:20] we sell socks as well right or i would [25:22] consider um you know [25:25] i don't know [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] talcum powder [25:26] before you i don't [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] know right [25:28] but [25:28] once i've got you to believe it could be [25:30] that root cause [25:32] now my recommendation is going to land [25:34] so well with you [25:36] because you're because you're going to [25:38] realize i went through this whole [25:39] process not only to understand what the [25:41] actual problem was [25:43] what the root cause was [25:45] and if i helped you understand what the [25:46] root cause was i'm the expert but if i [25:49] just keep saying why do you think this [25:51] why do you think that's happening why do [25:52] you think this happened our whole [25:53] conversation is limited by your level of [25:56] knowledge and as a salesperson you [25:58] should be able to expand that [26:00] so [26:01] i suppose an example from our world then [26:02] and just see it's curious to see how you [26:04] would handle this this this piece yep so [26:07] sometimes we ask people questions and [26:08] they would say something like i've not [26:10] considered that before like an example [26:12] might be someone's looking to outsource [26:14] sales to us but they have a sales team [26:16] already yep so you say okay and they put [26:18] the sales team on performing they might [26:19] say something like that right so we [26:21] would say okay so if i went if you when [26:23] your sales team came to you and said [26:25] that they're not performing properly [26:27] what was the what was the reason we've [26:29] not had that conversation [26:31] okay why not [26:33] and then there's this kind of [26:34] again a gap there it's kind of a [26:36] different kind of gap of just we don't [26:38] have enough information we're not [26:39] communicating properly so probably what [26:40] they came to me with us we just want to [26:42] outsource sales to ramp it up is really [26:45] an ineffective sales team in-house and [26:47] that's not a problem that we [26:48] solve so when there's those gaps in kind [26:51] of information and i've not looked at it [26:53] that way are you then giving the [26:55] prospect rooms like well look go away [26:57] and explore that and then you'll come [26:58] back to me [27:00] yeah based on everything you said i [27:01] absolutely love it i absolutely love [27:03] everything you just said [27:04] there if you get a customer to say i [27:07] haven't thought about that before or [27:09] that's a great question you're winning [27:13] i have this anecdotal belief system i [27:15] should do a blog post on if it's [27:16] anecdota i normally don't like doing [27:17] that but if you can get a customer and [27:19] say hey that's a great question three [27:20] times [27:21] your odds of winning the deal go up [27:24] thousand percent [27:26] yeah [27:27] that's uh [27:29] yeah that i we're definitely on the same [27:31] page with that one um okay so we had um [27:35] brandon voss his dad wrote never split [27:37] the difference on the podcast recently [27:39] and [27:40] i don't know if you've noticed this as [27:41] well some sales books are based around [27:43] no and some sales books are based around [27:44] yes [27:45] would i be fair to categorize gap [27:47] selling as a yes orientated approach [27:50] you're trying to find yeses [27:54] no [27:56] i'd be wrong in saying that yep [27:59] the reason i'd say that is because [28:01] you've got it getting to yes on the [28:03] cover of the book and one of the [28:04] chapters is called getting to yes but [28:05] obviously never split the difference is [28:07] more of a no orientated book so [28:09] in terms of are you trying to get as [28:11] many [28:12] as it might sound like a silly question [28:13] are you trying to get someone to say [28:15] yes or do you think there's more power [28:16] in saying no or is it case by case it's [28:19] neither [28:20] so obviously it says getting to yes [28:22] because that's your job [28:23] okay at the end of the day you got to [28:25] get the customer say yeah i think that [28:27] would work that's your job i can't work [28:29] outside of that box that's just stupid [28:31] right so of course here's the box we [28:33] have a job of sales and it's to get [28:34] people to buy our stuff right [28:36] but it's not that's the job of sales but [28:38] the [28:40] approach of selling isn't to get yeses [28:41] and it's not to get no's [28:43] it's to get the truth [28:47] i like nose as much as i like guesses [28:49] like i am completely detached from the [28:50] outcome when i do a discovery i just [28:52] want to know the truth i want all the [28:54] data so you can say it's not yes it's [28:56] not no it's not the truth it's the data [28:57] i want all the data i want all the data [29:00] on the table right so if i ask you a [29:02] question like oh is this is is your um [29:05] um uh [29:07] average sales price declining no okay [29:09] good great [29:10] awesome i could take one off the list [29:12] next it's like a doctor a doctor doesn't [29:14] want yes or no's [29:15] right a doctor [29:16] wanting a yes or no speaks to a [29:19] predefined objective [29:24] and that's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up think about some [29:25] doctors actually do that and it in and [29:27] over time people get pissed off because [29:29] they realize wait if you have a [29:30] predefined objective you're not here for [29:32] me you're here for you [29:34] you're trying to get more money from [29:36] surgery you're trying to get people to [29:37] spend more money on medication you're [29:39] trying to get your bonus from the [29:40] pharmaceutical company i don't give a [29:41] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] what it is that is an agenda [29:44] right sales should not have an agenda [29:46] but to help so no i don't want knows no [29:48] one i want yeses i want the truth i want [29:50] the data i want the facts and if the [29:52] facts and data suggest that i can help [29:54] you then let's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] go and if they [29:56] don't great no problem i'm moving on [29:59] you're not stuck in my pipeline for six [30:00] months or i keep hounding you to buy [30:02] something i don't even know you should [30:03] buy it [30:04] [Laughter] [30:06] yeah okay i love that uh i i suppose the [30:09] maybe a different way of asking [30:10] mention this so so the framing of a [30:13] question can be positive or negative [30:15] what we find in cold calling is using [30:18] that problem centric approach so we [30:19] never mention where we're calling from [30:21] featured advantage benefits throw out [30:22] the window we just say normally we're [30:24] invited in to solve these three problems [30:26] for people and at the end of it we say [30:28] but i've got a feeling you're probably [30:29] going to tell me you don't experience [30:30] any of those [30:31] rather than saying which one do you [30:32] experience and how long for and jumping [30:34] in like that feels like there's kind of [30:36] this safety in someone saying well well [30:38] no actually the second thing that you [30:39] said that i think there's something in [30:41] that [30:41] okay and and you know then we go into [30:43] that approach there it feels like the [30:44] framing [30:46] there's some sort of like i don't know [30:47] if it's mechanism in psychology of just [30:50] allowing someone room to just say no and [30:52] reject me feels a lot nicer than trying [30:54] to force a [30:55] yet do you know what i'm trying to say i [30:57] do so so [30:59] i like that approach [31:01] i would a b test it i'm sure what you [31:03] probably have and it's working for you [31:04] i'm sure it works for some people but [31:06] more for others i'm not a psychologist [31:08] but i think it [31:09] it the micro level around that question [31:12] how you're doing it there [31:14] um [31:15] is more is more to do with the the um [31:18] ownership [31:19] so when you say oh i'm sure you're going [31:22] to [31:23] tell me you don't have any of them [31:24] you've taken ownership from them [31:27] to give an answer you've taken that away [31:29] and people especially in western [31:31] cultures and particularly in america we [31:33] don't respond well when people if we [31:35] feel people have taken something from us [31:38] right even on the roads like my ex had a [31:41] a great concept at one point in time [31:42] when it came to road rage he said the [31:44] problem with people is they think that [31:45] that little piece of road their car on [31:46] is in that moment it's theirs [31:49] it's their piece of the road and so if [31:51] you do anything that that doesn't work [31:53] for them on that piece of the road [31:54] they're going to lose their [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] it's [31:55] like that's a really powerful way of [31:57] thinking about that right you're driving [31:59] down the street and and where i am right [32:01] now that's mine it's not yours don't [32:02] come near me [32:04] don't tell me how fast to go i'll move [32:05] over if i need to right i'll start [32:08] driving at the red light at my own or [32:09] green light at my own speed that's mine [32:11] and so i think the same thing is [32:12] happening here when you say to somebody [32:14] oh i'm sure you're just going to tell me [32:16] you don't have any of them right the [32:17] tone plays a role and all that but [32:19] deep down inside there's a psychological [32:21] trigger that just said he just took [32:22] ownership from me so rather than [32:24] agreeing with him [32:25] i'm gonna push back well that push back [32:27] falls right into your your what you want [32:29] them to do is say they have a problem [32:33] so it's manipulation i suppose isn't it [32:35] really yeah [32:38] but look i'm okay with that [32:40] because it's [32:42] you're just challenging the process to [32:44] it right i don't think it is um [32:47] nefarious manipulation [32:50] and i would say tonality plays [32:53] we mix it up and like we say like you're [32:55] probably going to tell me everything's [32:57] perfect [32:58] if it's for a sec like you're probably [33:00] well no nothing's perfect and then the [33:01] ball is rolling it's like we're not [33:03] trying to grab your wallet straight away [33:04] it's just saying look this is a sales [33:06] call straight away bang and it's they [33:08] get they're a little bit more relaxed [33:10] with it so keenan we're [33:12] we're big advocates of the book and we [33:15] hire a lot of young sdrs and we get a [33:18] lot of messages from people that listen [33:20] to the podcast and they say like what [33:23] books should we read and what what [33:25] should we listen to we always recommend [33:26] you one of the things that we get from [33:28] feedback and a lot of the questions that [33:30] we get is how can i [33:33] when i'm asking somebody like process [33:35] oriented orientated questions [33:38] if they if they do it incorrectly [33:40] sometimes it can [33:42] feel a little bit like an interrogation [33:47] so do you have any tips around that for [33:49] people listening absolutely absolutely i [33:51] i tell people this all the time in the [33:53] training because obviously people read [33:54] the book i you know can't tell you [33:58] like process questions [34:00] the in obviously [34:02] admit [34:03] in many cases the sales people be [34:06] let me step back [34:08] process questions find the root causes [34:10] now most people don't understand this [34:11] but it does process questions find the [34:13] root causes our product and service [34:16] fixes the root cause it can't fix the [34:17] problem the problem is the way to fix [34:20] the problem is through the root cause [34:22] okay i can't walk what's the root cause [34:24] my leg is broken i can't just walk i got [34:26] to fix the leg right so what a lot of [34:29] people do is because it's such an easy [34:31] path and it doesn't take a lot of [34:32] intellectual [34:34] strength they just start asking process [34:36] questions right out of the gate okay [34:38] the problem with that is if you ask too [34:39] many process questions without [34:41] identifying a problem it becomes [34:43] uncomfortable the buyer doesn't [34:45] understand where you're going okay so i [34:48] start saying hey zach [34:50] hey tell me a little bit how you got [34:51] dressed this morning what time did you [34:53] wake up how long did you take a shower [34:55] how much did you brush your teeth did [34:56] you have breakfast like what the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [34:58] like after a few though you're like this [34:59] is freaking me out but if i got you [35:01] early on to say that you're late to work [35:03] all the time [35:04] or you're late to work too often and [35:05] your boss is about to fire you i said [35:07] all right well tell me walk me through [35:09] how long it takes you to get dressed in [35:10] the morning what time do you set the [35:11] alarm how often do you um [35:13] hit the snooze even i just watched both [35:16] of your eyes whether you recognized or [35:18] not i could see the difference in how [35:20] you were taking those questions in in [35:22] the context of the problem and with the [35:25] context without the problem i could [35:26] literally see your body change [35:29] right am i telling you do you feel the [35:31] difference [35:32] one million [35:34] and do you feel like the delivery on [35:36] that so you paused you clicked there and [35:38] a lot of the time like i played the [35:40] dummy a little bit i go right okay and [35:42] i'm really understanding and i go and [35:43] and then i'll launch into my next [35:45] question when you pause and you click [35:46] then was that just mannerisms or was [35:48] that kind of intentional [35:51] uh involuntary i didn't notice it [35:54] okay no word no because it no it was [35:56] interesting because you're you're [35:57] delivering these questions but the way [35:59] that the way you did it the second time [36:01] was less [36:03] in do you know i mean it wasn't like an [36:04] interrogation because i had so i didn't [36:06] know i had something to think about [36:09] so when i when i i've already anchored [36:11] you in the problem [36:12] every question i ask i'm thinking about [36:14] the problem and okay so what causes [36:16] someone to be late what caused someone [36:17] to be late what caused something to be [36:18] late and i'm i'm taking that here taking [36:20] that here the other one was just sort of [36:22] all over the place right i mean i i knew [36:24] that i could keep him from being late [36:26] but i don't know if he is late yet and [36:28] so i'm just trying to ask all these [36:29] process questions so that he says oh i [36:31] only hit the alarm once and i get up at [36:33] five o'clock like well then why is he [36:34] late like so i'm going to keep asking [36:36] these process questions and [36:38] he's not late or he is late but it [36:41] doesn't matter because his boss doesn't [36:42] care so it's awkward so i have to if i'm [36:45] going to ask one or two process [36:47] questions i have to quickly move to so [36:50] does that make you late for work or does [36:52] this create this or does that and once i [36:53] get you say yes i can go back and ask [36:55] more process questions but if i don't [36:57] quickly move to a business problem or an [37:00] impact and i keep asking process [37:02] questions it freaks people out and it [37:04] doesn't make sense and then it feels [37:05] like you said look can you stop asking [37:06] these questions and show me the product [37:09] yeah yeah so it's the it's sort of the [37:11] layering of the well what i was thinking [37:12] of them was when you go to a doctor [37:15] you've presented the problem right so i [37:17] presented the problem and then when the [37:19] doctor starts asking me all the problems [37:21] around all the extra questions around [37:23] process and what impact that's having on [37:25] my life day to day i feel much more [37:27] comfortable with that line of question [37:28] but if a doctor just approached me in [37:30] the street and went how often are you [37:32] walking the dog for and how often do you [37:34] be like whoa what is going on here this [37:36] is the most bizarre it doesn't feel [37:38] natural does it but because i've been so [37:40] yeah so once you've got that problem [37:42] first that's kind of a foot in the door [37:44] now let's let's let's explore that [37:45] that's a diagnosis [37:47] yeah yeah exactly exactly so one thing [37:50] that i know you feel just as [37:51] passionately about as us is [37:54] we talk about this so much we talk about [37:55] with new people that start [37:57] i i've been banging this drum so when i [37:59] started in sales i was told it's all [38:01] about relationships it's all about [38:02] getting people to like you people buy [38:04] off people [38:05] even if people say no just pop around to [38:06] their office with a box of donuts and [38:08] buy them a coffee and bribe them until [38:10] they say yes to you and you just end up [38:13] having this like needy horrible but you [38:15] still see people banging the drum on [38:17] it's all about relationships and people [38:19] say well my biggest client he's got the [38:21] best relationship with him well [38:23] that might help facilitate the [38:25] conversations that are happening but he [38:26] still must have a problem otherwise i'd [38:28] just go to all my family wouldn't i just [38:30] say do you want to all just buy from me [38:31] um [38:32] so so so what what have you found about [38:35] especially if i'm keen to say this from [38:37] the american perspective as well um [38:39] in terms of relationship led selling why [38:43] is it so flawed [38:44] because it's based on the idea of being [38:45] liked right you i mean you just you [38:47] answered your question in in the [38:49] question itself it's [38:51] it's built on the desire to be liked so [38:53] the truth of the matter is is [38:55] relationships can't be avoided like [38:57] you have relations by default so all [38:59] selling is relationship selling okay [39:02] so it's how we define the relationship [39:04] right so [39:05] rather than defining a relationship [39:06] built on likability [39:08] i argue you need to build a relationship [39:10] on credibility [39:11] right and so once you've established [39:14] credibility the most important piece of [39:17] a relationship is established and what [39:18] is that [39:21] trust uh [39:24] yeah trust yeah trust is the most [39:27] important element to a relationship [39:30] on the [39:31] simplest of layers okay [39:33] so [39:34] if you can build a relationship a [39:37] selling relationship on credibility then [39:39] trust is right behind it and so if you [39:42] are perceived as credible and establish [39:44] trust [39:45] everything else falls into place [39:47] everything you don't have to worry about [39:49] now sometimes they'll actually like you [39:51] that's freaking great but other times [39:54] they [39:54] may not like you like [39:56] you know i'm an easy guy to hate or love [39:57] right but man if i've got their trust to [39:59] credibility it's good to go right [40:02] um [40:03] and then but what other people [40:04] understand is the majority of people [40:06] don't like you or dislike you [40:08] it just is and a bell curve you don't [40:10] necessarily like people that dislike [40:12] them they're just [40:13] they're yeah they're good enough [40:14] they're just people so just get rid of [40:17] the likability plus likeability hampers [40:19] your ability to challenge [40:22] yeah [40:23] and you would still [40:24] there's a a sales trainer here in the uk [40:27] who talks about how you would still work [40:29] with a lawyer even if you thought he was [40:31] a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] yeah because you'd know that [40:33] he was like an expert in his field he'd [40:35] be i wouldn't want to go for a beer with [40:36] him [40:37] but he's still an expert and that's kind [40:39] of the way you should be as a sales [40:40] person it's how do i like you said how [40:41] do i establish the trust the credibility [40:44] and that piece did did you ever sell [40:46] like that ever in your career [40:50] yeah i got a big personality it was easy [40:51] for me to sell that way [40:53] right but then [40:54] and some people you know honestly fell [40:56] for it but some people responded well to [40:58] it but a lot of other people and the [41:00] higher i went up the [41:01] the [41:03] um the [41:04] sales ladder as it relates to who i'm [41:06] selling to so by selling to mid-level [41:09] managers or or something like that they [41:10] loved it and then i got to the vp layer [41:12] and i'm selling to them and they were [41:13] this but if i got to the sea level they [41:14] were like who is this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] clown like [41:16] can we just get the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] videos like [41:19] you could just see it and i started to [41:20] sense it that you're trying to be [41:22] magnanimous and gregarious and walk in [41:24] there and be the big happy guy they were [41:26] like yeah guys cool but i i had no [41:28] credibility they started seeing through [41:30] me [41:31] yeah i i found as well that [41:34] almost people would play that game with [41:36] you especially at that c-suite level but [41:38] take you for a bit of a ride of like [41:39] yeah i really like you too maybe like [41:41] let's get a bit of a discount for me as [41:43] well and maybe do this freebie thing for [41:45] me as well and it's almost like if they [41:47] knew they could take you for that ride [41:48] as you say it's like [41:50] come on let's get all the freebies out [41:52] here that we can so yeah there's lessons [41:54] today hanging out with me but not by [41:55] anything or just throw me a bone once in [41:56] a while [41:58] right so yeah because they just did it [42:00] they would go with my competitor for the [42:01] big stuff and throw me a bone here they [42:03] liked me but i didn't do a good job [42:04] explaining to them why we were good and [42:07] you know i just earned credibility as a [42:08] sales person [42:10] i was product-centric selling through [42:12] relationships that's the worst [42:16] and i think when you your mind becomes [42:17] aware of it like now the way that we [42:19] sell is totally different to the way we [42:21] would have sold a decade ago but there's [42:24] still so many people that are out there [42:26] selling in this way [42:28] um so what we found keenan um that works [42:31] amazingly from gap selling method is [42:33] putting objections back on the prospect [42:36] and holding them up against their [42:38] desired future state so can you give us [42:40] an example of how things work when you [42:42] might get a common objection like price [42:46] you guys are good like you guys have [42:47] interpreted this book good for not [42:48] having gone through the training i'm [42:50] impressed like most people really screw [42:52] it up so you guys are doing a good job [42:54] yes so thank you yeah so so the concept [42:57] of throwing objections back onto people [42:59] is really simple [43:01] if you prop again back to discovery if [43:03] you properly do a discovery and you [43:05] probably [43:06] properly diagnose an environment you [43:09] will have the following you will have [43:11] their complete physical and literal so [43:12] that's all the objective facts about the [43:14] organization that that are relevant or [43:17] pertinent then you'll understand the [43:18] business problem then you'll understand [43:20] the impacts that business problem is [43:21] having on the organization then you'll [43:23] understand the root causes that's so [43:25] critical the root causes to why the [43:27] problem exists then you'll also [43:29] understand their desired outcomes then [43:31] you'll also understand what some of the [43:32] potential solutions are to solve it and [43:34] you'll also understand which problems [43:36] the most critical naftas you have to [43:38] solve in the future then you built the [43:40] gap so you have all of that information [43:43] so if you have all that information [43:46] and you know [43:47] that a certain your product isn't the [43:49] best fit or you know that there's a big [43:51] hole in your feature set so let's say [43:53] you're going to kill six other seven but [43:55] one of them is a massive miss [43:58] you either should have got out of the [43:59] sale in the first place or notice that [44:01] nobody does that seven very that seventh [44:03] piece very well and you do the other six [44:05] so much better that it's worth staying [44:08] in it that when the buyer comes to you [44:10] and says hey you don't have [44:12] this feature [44:14] what you say is you're correct i don't [44:16] however [44:18] you said [44:20] this is what you're trying to accomplish [44:22] these are the root causes this is why [44:24] it's happening this is the impact it's [44:26] having you this is where you want to go [44:28] this number seven doesn't really impact [44:32] that that much what the biggest element [44:34] to achieving what you want to achieve in [44:36] break is number two and three [44:38] we do those way better than anybody else [44:43] so number seven doesn't matter no i've [44:45] missed something [44:47] then share with me but if not could you [44:49] walk me through why number seven is so [44:51] important to you now knowing [44:53] this [44:54] and you shut up [44:58] for me for me it makes so much sense but [45:01] if you're being honest why do you think [45:02] people aren't doing this it's hard [45:06] it's hard [45:07] they have to actually [45:09] take the time to understand someone's [45:12] business they have to genuinely get out [45:14] of old school sell mode which was which [45:16] is i'm trying to sell i need commission [45:20] i need quota my product is the best [45:22] product in the world [45:24] so you go down this road and when you go [45:26] down this road you can't overcome an [45:28] objection you literally can't because [45:30] you don't know um what the problem [45:33] you're trying to solve is so you they [45:34] they're when someone says hey here's my [45:37] objection you're too expensive or you um [45:40] oh i've never thought about this way [45:41] this is good when someone says hey [45:43] you're too expensive hey you don't have [45:45] this feature hey this is going to take [45:46] too long or hey this or hey that right [45:49] in the traditional world what they're [45:51] saying is [45:52] we don't [45:53] something's missing for us it's not it's [45:55] not all coming together we're not seeing [45:56] the value or we don't see how this is [45:58] going to [45:58] work if they're asking those questions [46:01] it means you [46:03] didn't understand their environment and [46:05] put [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] in front of them that they [46:07] can't process through well you shouldn't [46:09] have put it in front of them if you if [46:12] you know everything that's going on [46:14] right [46:15] i'm not going to put something in front [46:17] of you that i know where an objection [46:19] could come from i'm not going to do it [46:21] i'm literally not going to do it [46:23] so if you properly gap sell [46:26] you shouldn't get that many of any [46:28] objections [46:29] because if you properly get sold and you [46:31] got to the point it was time to make a [46:33] recommendation and you knew [46:35] that certain things wouldn't work you [46:36] knew you weren't the right fit or [46:37] certain features missing or the size of [46:39] the gap was too small so it's too [46:40] expensive and all of that then you [46:42] shouldn't have made the recommendation [46:44] yeah [46:45] that's true you shouldn't have so [46:49] and then i'm curious from from your [46:51] slides so when you're asking like a like [46:53] a tougher question that you know is [46:54] going to be maybe a bit of an [46:56] uncomfortable moment in the conversation [46:58] do you just [46:59] hit them with it or do you give a bit of [47:01] pretext before you hit them with it like [47:03] what's the best way to broach a really [47:05] tough question it depends on the [47:07] question and yeah it depends on the [47:09] difficulty of the question sometimes i [47:11] just ask other times i'm like listen can [47:14] i ask a very difficult question can i [47:15] ask an uncomfortable question [47:17] right the usually the ones that [47:20] the usually the most uncomfortable and [47:22] difficult questions i have to ask [47:24] or in some cases not even a question [47:26] statement i need to make [47:28] is about the person i'm talking to [47:31] so one of the best examples i can give [47:33] and i won't tell the company if it's a [47:34] fortune [47:35] 50 maybe company somewhere maybe 1425 [47:38] and i was i was speaking with their [47:41] worldwide vp of enablement and i was [47:43] going through the discovery process and [47:45] i was trying look we solved four [47:46] problems here at asg and technically [47:49] speaking i would argue you solve the [47:50] same ones because you're in uh you help [47:52] sales teams it's either not meeting your [47:55] sales goals or declining revenue or flat [47:57] revenue so it depends how you want to [47:58] look at it right we're not on our [47:59] numbers even though we're growing or [48:00] we're flat we're going down so revenue [48:02] issues right top-line revenue issues [48:04] long sales cycles low average asp [48:07] and or [48:08] um [48:10] uh [48:11] i got sidetracked low asp oh or low [48:13] conversion rates that's pretty much all [48:15] we solve [48:16] now if you guys give me another one i'll [48:17] take it but no one's been able to give [48:19] me another one so when i get into these [48:21] conversations i just quickly go to those [48:23] right i'm like so hey so help me [48:24] understand a few things about your [48:25] organization i'll listen for a few [48:27] minutes and say okay so could you walk [48:28] me through your average close rate right [48:31] your win percentage whatever you want to [48:32] call it right and i asked that she know [48:34] i don't know that and then i said okay [48:35] no problem i said what is are you guys [48:37] is your revenue increasing decreasing [48:38] she says um i think she said it's [48:40] increasing i said how much she said no i [48:43] said um can you walk me through your [48:44] average sales cycle she said i don't [48:46] know i said what is your average sales [48:47] price she said well it's changing i'm [48:48] not sure what it is and so then i said [48:50] well how do you know you have a problem [48:52] and she said well um we're seeing a lot [48:55] of buyers [48:56] um uh are on the business side and not [48:59] as much on the technical side our entire [49:00] sales team we're talking six seven [49:01] thousand sales people [49:03] are don't know how to sell to the [49:05] business side they only know how to sell [49:06] to the technical side and we're seeing [49:08] that less and less than having the [49:10] conversation with the business side but [49:11] the business side is actually [49:13] driving more the sale they said okay [49:14] that's why i'm asking the question so [49:16] because you're seeing this trend [49:19] what is happening are the sales taking [49:21] longer are you losing more of the deals [49:23] you said i don't know [49:24] i said this is that that's she said our [49:26] problem is i just need to get the sales [49:27] people to be able to sell to the [49:28] business act and i stopped and i said [49:30] listen can i be direct she said yes i [49:31] said your sales enablement [49:35] i'm concerned that you don't know these [49:37] these numbers and know what's going on [49:38] it's your job [49:42] to know these so can you [49:43] help me understand why you don't know [49:44] them and what are you measuring if you [49:46] don't know these [49:48] this is the worldwide vice president of [49:50] sales enablement or senior vice [49:52] president sales and airplane [49:54] that did not go over well and i lost the [49:56] deal but i don't want that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] deal [49:58] what am i supposed to do with that no [50:00] like literally no exactly and this is [50:02] the key sign she said i've been doing [50:04] this for 30 years [50:06] i know what my problem is [50:09] good [50:10] luck good luck [50:14] but she again going back to your method [50:16] she was coming to you with the problem [50:18] but had no idea or interest in going [50:20] through [50:21] no she called me [50:24] she was coming to you with the root [50:25] cause [50:26] but she didn't she was coming to you [50:28] with we've got this other market that is [50:31] coming to us and we don't know how to [50:32] qualify them and close them [50:35] that's a root cause not a problem [50:38] go on [50:39] a root cause is a problem with a tool or [50:41] a process [50:43] okay [50:44] so just just because they don't know how [50:46] to [50:47] sell to the [50:48] um business side if their average sales [50:52] price isn't declining is still going up [50:54] if the [50:55] average sales cycle isn't declining if [50:58] revenue is still going up and their [50:59] conversion rate is still going up [51:02] who cares [51:04] why would you invest in teaching them to [51:06] sell [51:06] to the business side [51:09] now her answer could go back and be like [51:10] yes but we're concerned we're beginning [51:13] to see trends that if this continues [51:15] those things will fall [51:17] okay i can work with that too so tell me [51:20] what they are now right what are some of [51:22] the early signs you're seeing right it's [51:25] still going to fall in one of those [51:26] categories so even though the numbers [51:27] are going up let's say we lost a really [51:29] big deal that we shouldn't have lost [51:30] that's a sign even though it's still [51:32] going up [51:33] right it's not going up as quickly or [51:35] it's going up but it's flattening a [51:37] little bit still above right so i'm [51:38] still back at the same [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] station [51:41] right so [51:42] with if those things aren't happening [51:44] this is zach this is a great question [51:46] and i don't even realize if you realize [51:47] you just tripped into it [51:49] if sales people hear that piece oh yeah [51:52] yeah yeah man they can't sell to the [51:53] business side and they gotta buy from us [51:55] and we can help them sell the business [51:56] but but if that root cause does not have [51:58] the downstream effects of a business [52:01] problem [52:02] you're gonna be selling to them forever [52:03] and they're not going to buy [52:05] and if you push that across 100 deals [52:07] 10 by 90 don't well it would have been [52:09] better off to get those 90 out of the [52:11] cycle right away [52:13] exactly well i suppose that [52:15] if i was in that conversation i'm [52:17] guessing you probably said something [52:18] along these lines anyway but you'd [52:19] probably say well why don't you hire [52:21] some say you've hired six thousand [52:22] salespeople won't you just hire some [52:23] salespeople that got that other skill [52:24] set that you're missing well no because [52:26] that's still see watch what you did [52:27] there that's still offering a solution [52:30] i don't know that she has a problem so i [52:32] literally said okay yes they're doing [52:35] this but so what if you don't know the [52:38] impact it's having in the business why [52:40] would you spend a time to fix it [52:42] exactly that's my point so i wouldn't [52:44] even recommend hiring more people i [52:46] don't understand what your problem is [52:47] okay i hear you yes they can't sell to [52:49] the business side okay so because they [52:51] can't sell the business side why is that [52:52] a problem [52:54] yeah yeah exactly that's what that's [52:56] kind of what i'm saying i'm saying that [52:57] it doesn't sound like it sounds like an [52:58] easy you could have worked this out [53:00] yourself and it's probably not really a [53:01] problem [53:03] okay those two those two things maybe [53:06] it's english language versus american [53:08] language those things too don't jive for [53:10] me you could [53:11] figure it out yourself it isn't a [53:13] problem [53:14] there's nothing to figure out if it's [53:16] not a problem the way see what i'm [53:17] saying in my head [53:18] if there's nobody yeah yeah i think [53:20] there's nothing [53:22] yeah that's that's kind of what i'm [53:23] saying we're saying the same thing [53:25] that's kind of what i'm saying [53:27] so that's an interesting one i love [53:29] those [53:29] especially they're the sort of [53:31] conversations you back around your head [53:32] in it on like a long car journey and [53:34] think what was that all about that weird [53:36] child um look i i could talk to you all [53:39] day we've got we've got the last [53:40] question to ask you and it's kind of [53:41] asking you for a bit of advice on us um [53:44] so we're a growing business we've been [53:46] going for almost a year [53:48] and we've ramped up from thank you we've [53:52] ramped up from me and my bedroom with my [53:54] baby in the background crying to uh [53:56] we've got two offices we'll have 10 [53:58] sales people by the end of the month [54:00] but what we've found is [54:02] the hiring of salespeople [54:05] can be hit and miss the guy who turns up [54:07] at the interview often isn't the same [54:08] guy that arrives at work the next day [54:11] um [54:12] and you've probably seen so many [54:14] different types of sales people [54:16] but all their commonalities and threads [54:19] throughout that we should be looking for [54:20] during that kind of hiring journey oh my [54:22] gosh this is such a good question and [54:25] you can see the exacerbation on my face [54:28] um [54:30] i have to cop [54:32] the truth here [54:34] i'm even questioning my own [54:36] um [54:39] uh [54:40] skill sets and strengths and hiring [54:42] sales people [54:43] because [54:44] i [54:47] used to believe [54:49] and i still believe [54:51] that success across anything [54:54] starts with personal drive [54:57] accountability [54:59] um [55:00] uh [55:01] deliberate learning like curiosity this [55:04] this desire inside to to [55:06] learn uh and in self-development um [55:10] uh [55:11] an uncomfortable feeling when you're not [55:14] doing something well you're failing this [55:16] is this desire to [55:18] to not be average to not just [55:21] do something for the sake of doing like [55:22] i always thought that was the key to [55:24] anything and then at the base layer then [55:26] the next layer is okay what what soft [55:28] skills do they bring to the table how [55:30] much how long they've been doing it or [55:32] where have they done it like that [55:33] experience piece on top of it right and [55:36] everybody else flipped the script from [55:37] you i always went to that bottom piece [55:39] but to be perfectly perfectly frank and [55:40] i'm not even going to call this [55:41] generational millennials z gen x i'm not [55:44] going to call it any of that i just [55:46] think it's society as a whole people [55:48] have become so complacent with being [55:51] average [55:52] that it doesn't bother them [55:54] it literally doesn't bother number one [55:56] number two the sales is the most [55:58] accountable space one of the most [56:00] accountable professions you can have and [56:02] the lack of accountability [56:04] that our society has now is beyond me so [56:08] i [56:09] can't even tell you like i still have [56:12] higher for those i sound like the old [56:13] man on the block i'm not going to give [56:14] up on it right until someone can show me [56:16] something different but [56:18] where our success right i don't think [56:19] anybody than anybody else in the [56:21] industry [56:22] and i've doubled down on those it's like [56:24] give me the guy a girl that can freaking [56:27] is uncomfortable not being able to get a [56:29] job done he's going to go out there and [56:31] figure out themselves he's going to rub [56:33] their knuckles right like if he played [56:34] instruments i don't but [56:36] rub their fingers raw to learn the [56:38] guitar rather than learning inside this [56:39] is fun ooh my fingers hurt so i don't [56:41] want to do this anymore right like i [56:44] think our whole society is filled with [56:45] those people i want to play guitar this [56:47] is fun ooh my fingers shirt now oh this [56:48] sucked oh i can't my fingers hurt too [56:49] much no [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [56:51] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] wear them down get the calluses [56:53] and be a great [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] guitar player [56:56] i just don't see it anymore [56:59] god so there's a there's kind of a an [57:01] inability to find comfort and discomfort [57:05] that was well said [57:06] yeah well thank you yeah we're looking [57:08] for the uh [57:10] the diamonds and the uh we're looking [57:12] for the the one the needle in a haystack [57:14] um [57:15] keenan i've been looking forward to this [57:17] i'm so glad that you did pick up that [57:19] phone on that cold tuesday morning back [57:21] in january i've been looking forward to [57:23] this chat for months now and it's so [57:25] good to have you on for our listeners if [57:27] they want to check you out where can [57:29] they find you and what have you got [57:31] coming up uh salesgrowth.com [57:35] uh linkedin i'm easy on linkedin [57:37] like if you can't find me back to my [57:39] point then you're not trying i mean [57:41] literally [57:42] if you can't find me you're not trying [57:44] so i shouldn't even have to tell you [57:45] here's my name keenan that if you can't [57:47] find me then [57:48] you're not interested so don't worry [57:50] about it uh what do i get coming up um [57:52] nothing public um doing a big speaking [57:54] engagement in vegas but it's a big oh [57:56] yeah i guess it is a public event um for [57:58] msp so you don't have to be an msp to go [58:01] but i'm sure it'd be a boring conference [58:02] otherwise but um [58:05] and then on the beach in california in [58:07] two weeks i mean six wait four weeks [58:09] three weeks ooh can't wait and then the [58:10] beach in california i moved to [58:12] california every summer for the summer [58:14] okay welcome back to ville colorado so i [58:16] ski all winter and then play on the [58:18] beach in surf all summer [58:23] no more books in the horizon [58:26] yes i mean i have i have two [58:28] i want to do gap selling for marketing [58:30] and i also have another book that i'm so [58:32] excited to write and i'm just dragging [58:34] my ass because [58:35] you might have just been the fire this [58:36] book [58:37] anytime i think something's great it's [58:39] not everything i think someone's average [58:40] it's great like i didn't expect gap [58:42] selling to do this i mean i believed in [58:43] it but i did not see this coming but the [58:46] next book i have is a is a compliment [58:49] i'm going to keep it to myself but i i [58:51] think this [58:52] could blow people's minds and [58:55] only dovetail really really well with [58:57] gap selling [58:59] wow very exciting [59:02] well if you if you go and write the [59:03] synopsis tonight and you feel inspired [59:05] and you want to put to jack and zach [59:07] those two british cold calling bastards [59:09] that inspired me do you feel freaky then [59:12] [Laughter] [59:14] it's been incredible thank you so much [59:16] so much keenan [59:17] i hope this was helpful

===FILE=== Q-JFkMfbxnA - Episode 42 Sales and the book Gap Selling with Keenan.txt
https://youtu.be/Q-JFkMfbxnA
Episode #42 Sales and the book ＂Gap Selling＂ with Keenan

[0:00] welcome to Monster chats presented by [0:02] Monster voice where we share the tools [0:04] methods and best practices that business [0:06] leaders use to build new connections [0:07] strengthen relationships and impact [0:09] sales and organizations of all shapes [0:11] and sizes if you have any questions that [0:14] come up during today's episode please [0:16] text them to four two four three seven [0:18] eight six nine six six please welcome [0:21] the founder of monster voice your host [0:23] Colin Mitchell on today's episode I'm [0:27] gonna be talking with Keenan Kenny and I [0:29] are gonna be talking about sales and the [0:31] discussion around the topics of the book [0:33] gap selling I'm calling Mitchell the [0:35] host of monster chats and the founder of [0:37] monster void Keenan is a sales guy Inc [0:41] CEO president and chief antagonist he's [0:44] been selling something to someone for [0:46] his entire life he's been teaching and [0:49] coaching almost as long with over 20 [0:52] years of sales experience which he'll [0:55] tell you doesn't give a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about [0:56] Keenan has been influencing learning [0:59] from and shaping the world of sales for [1:01] a long time finder of the elephant in [1:04] the room [1:05] Keenan calls it as he sees it and lets [1:08] nothing or no one go unnoticed can a [1:12] welcome to monster chats how you do it [1:14] so baby I'm good I'm good man I'm super [1:17] excited to have you on here super pumped [1:19] to talk about gap selling as I was [1:22] telling you it's on our recommended list [1:24] I've read it myself three times but [1:26] before we dive in just for those that [1:29] don't already know tell them a little [1:30] bit about your story like when did you [1:32] first get into sales what were you [1:34] selling the first time and what has kind [1:36] of led you know to your journey of where [1:37] you're at right now I would sell my [1:39] whole life man like I mean I'm been [1:42] selling the whole life as a kid you know [1:45] I tell you I think I talked about in my [1:46] book I was kind of like the Tom Sawyer [1:48] you ever read Tom Sawyer yeah yeah you [1:51] know the the story opens yep how's it [1:54] open now oh man you can't say yes did [2:00] not know so in the beginning of Tom [2:02] Sawyer he's painting a fence right look [2:05] what happens I don't know tell us [2:07] go ahead lay the fence he's got a work [2:09] to do and then and then a kid comes over [2:13] says what are you [2:13] and I'm having a blast painting this [2:15] fence we were gonna and I'm gonna [2:17] butcher it anyway we're going to do [2:18] something so no I want to paint the [2:19] fence and then he convinces the person [2:22] that came up that he's paying the bends [2:23] and it's more fun than doing something [2:25] else that kid starts painting the fence [2:26] then another kid comes up so what she [2:28] doing it he convinces him it's more fun [2:29] and before you know it he's not paying [2:31] the fence all his friends paying the [2:32] fence so I've been selling my whole life [2:35] I was like the time so yeah I was at all [2:37] we should all do this not us to somebody [2:38] no no we should be doing this before you [2:40] know what everybody's doing what I want [2:41] to do so you were selling people on the [2:43] idea of doing whatever it is that you [2:45] wanted to do yes yeah yeah play the game [2:48] I want to play go where I wanted to go [2:49] and I wasn't always successful that was [2:51] in probably that was a narcissistic [2:52] little kid but I figured out really [2:54] early so what was the first thing that [2:57] you were selling where you know you were [2:59] generating dollars like you figured like [3:02] hey I have this skill I have this knack [3:04] for convincing people to go down the [3:06] path that I want them to when did you [3:07] start to monetize that yeah well I mean [3:10] again as a kid I did I did I convinced [3:13] all the other kids in the neighborhood [3:14] to pool their money so we could do [3:15] lemonade stands you know I'm saying now [3:17] I wasn't smart enough to never equity [3:19] and equal um equal share equal dolls so [3:22] I get some kids to put in five bucks and [3:23] I put in 50 cents and somehow we'd all [3:25] split the stuff evenly so right so the [3:28] kids are putting more I always got [3:29] screwed but then I mean oh then I sold [3:34] raffles for my school and you know [3:36] whoever saw the most raffle tickets got [3:38] prizes and I'd always sell the most [3:40] raffle ticket six of one year I was mad [3:41] as hell but anyways because kids mom [3:43] came in on the 11th hour and he was [3:44] losing and bought like two books and put [3:46] him past me which piss me off first time [3:48] I saw [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] privilege as icky little [3:50] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] his mom she been embarrassed [3:53] actually but anyways I digress digress [3:54] so but I mean if you tell you where I [3:56] got pay like my real job it was selling [3:58] chamber memberships starting in 1996 I [4:02] guess it was okay and tell us about that [4:05] what was that like [4:06] you know I was I was down in South Beach [4:09] Miami modeling and trying to become a [4:11] you know next of a model mine's a lot of [4:14] like like baseball in that like small [4:17] markets you know you you ever have you [4:19] know small markets for average models [4:22] for lack of a better word and then [4:23] bigger markets if you get better and you [4:24] get even better bigger markets and the [4:26] creme de la [4:26] in New York and then maybe Milan an [4:28] alien ship and the what we call it's a [4:31] ball if you will would be Miami during [4:34] the season a lot of people from big [4:36] Mossman seemed out in Miami for the [4:37] season so I was there trying to like [4:39] elevate my game and work on my book and [4:41] get to the next level and a buddy called [4:43] me as I came in he's come on I got a job [4:45] for you and I did the math I was like [4:48] wait okay even if like in the late 90s [4:50] man Marlon was a woman's were doing [4:53] million-dollar millionaire models before [4:54] Instagram and all that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] but do it [4:56] other than like Tyson Beckford and a few [4:58] other people you weren't going to make [5:00] millions of dollars modeling so I got [5:01] real with myself even if I can break [5:03] through and be a top-tier model which is [5:06] still a long shot being a brother and [5:08] for whatever other reasons I was like I [5:10] only make 300 thousand a year but if I [5:12] stop my career now I can make that and a [5:14] few years and make it the rest of my [5:15] life so they all right [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] it I'm done [5:18] I'm having to do two minutes out and [5:19] they like the job that much I like the [5:20] lifestyle and so I came home and I [5:22] started saw one team of memberships and [5:24] in the first year I broke all these [5:25] records most largest sale most sales in [5:28] a month you know blah blah blah as the [5:29] top sales rep and one of the people I [5:32] saw the membership to saw that and they [5:34] hired me and then work for them for [5:35] three years became a partner and then [5:38] they turn around what a client with them [5:40] Tehran hired me to run a sales team [5:41] within three years I was running a sales [5:43] team of 125 people three hundred million [5:48] dollars in revenue as vice president [5:49] sales hmm so when you when you started [5:53] breaking all those records selling [5:55] Chamber memberships were what were you [5:57] doing different than the other people [5:58] that weren't like were you right out the [6:00] gate just doing [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] Keenan's way or [6:02] where it was there somebody who took you [6:04] under their wing which I know this dude [6:07] just did it my way hustled you know like [6:10] a household first in a hustle like [6:12] everybody was a customer through school [6:14] I got kind of lucky right everybody was [6:15] almost a custom II started learning okay [6:17] I went on a meeting to a gas station [6:18] that was stupid like you learned things [6:20] guest days are not gonna join the [6:22] chamber but over time I learned who [6:24] would be a good fit and I became an I'd [6:27] be driving down the street and see a [6:28] truck with an with a name on it write [6:31] that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] down no internet I go back to [6:33] the office the next day they weren't a [6:34] member on the phone column so I was I [6:36] was a hustler and then I learned what [6:39] we're [6:39] didn't work so you combined in the [6:41] hustle with a willingness to learn and [6:43] an ability to get to the core of why [6:46] people should buy and why it was [6:47] valuable to them it was over house [6:49] killing it awesome [6:51] I'd love to hear how you kind of started [6:53] out so tell me no just let's kind of [6:57] fast forward when did you transition [6:59] from you know you know leading a sales [7:02] team and and then getting into building [7:04] a sales guy and writing the book and all [7:05] that talk to us about about that [7:07] transition so look there's two stories [7:11] in this story well there's two messages [7:13] in this story I didn't set out to star [7:16] in sales consulting firm as a matter of [7:17] fact I had already failed it three [7:19] different businesses that were all [7:21] software businesses or one was a service [7:23] to a software so I had tons of failure [7:26] in my ass lost my life savings two out [7:28] of three times maybe all three times [7:30] maybe once I'm into that much of a life [7:31] savings lose but bottom line is got my [7:33] ass handed to me a bunch of times and so [7:35] I in no way stretches my imagination was [7:38] trying to start at another business Wow [7:40] I was just tired of being underemployed [7:42] and sort of Mima that is because my [7:45] career went so fast right went from [7:47] selling chamber memberships in 1997 to [7:50] running a sales team of 300 I mean 125 [7:53] people with 300 million in revenue [7:55] across the entire United States like six [7:57] Tourette I mean five directors and in [7:59] eight or nine managers right with all of [8:02] that I'd go to get a job and people like [8:05] he's got four years experience like they [8:08] couldn't process it like that size [8:10] responsibility usually with people who [8:12] are 40 45 50 minute 15 20 30 years I'm [8:16] like 4 and I'm 32 you know I'm saying [8:18] wasn't like I was started one of 20 so I [8:20] was I just would under employed no one [8:22] would hire me at that level so was a [8:24] struggle just at that level I didn't [8:26] know someone didn't have a relationship [8:27] it was taking me months sometimes a year [8:30] to find a job so I said [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] this and in [8:33] 2019 I started a blog and the idea of [8:36] the blog was if I can get a couple [8:38] hundred or thousand regular readers if I [8:41] ever needed a job again all I'd have to [8:43] do is put it on the blog hey folks I'm [8:46] leaving this gig you've been reading if [8:47] you know anything let me know if you [8:49] guys are interested it was really just [8:51] to build enough [8:52] an audience to get a new job if I ever [8:55] needed one okay [8:56] two years later I got 20,000 views a day [8:59] and and people are reaching out to me [9:02] and being Lissa's the top sales blog and [9:05] blah blah blah blah and then someone [9:07] reached out to me I'll never forget her [9:08] first gig she said hey I'm having a [9:09] problem with my sales managers I've read [9:11] this can you help so I threw out a [9:12] number she said okay I go that was easy [9:14] so I went to my boss said you mind if I [9:16] do this on the side he said no you can't [9:17] and then another person called me and [9:20] then we got bought and they let all the [9:22] North American sales people go and so I [9:23] had a choice another job spend six eight [9:26] months trying to find another job or [9:28] spend the same six eight months trying [9:30] to build this so that's what I call me [9:32] the phrase bet on yourself as if you [9:33] don't [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] this I'll bet on myself yeah [9:35] and it's been 10 years wow what a story [9:38] how did you get so many people to follow [9:40] the sales blog I mean like did you have [9:43] writing experience prior to that where [9:45] how are people finding the blog where's [9:47] it just straight Rhett word-of-mouth [9:49] people were reading your [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] and loving [9:51] it and then saying hey you got to read [9:52] this blog what happened how did you go [9:54] so quick to getting so many people [9:55] reading your stuff well to you first of [9:57] two years a long time write to you they [10:00] wrote every single day for two years [10:02] okay that's determination yes number two [10:05] is incremental okay and by the way [10:07] pretty freaking freak bags out there [10:09] okay I wrote just about every day for [10:11] two years all right I'm sure I miss [10:13] something okay so ever ask that what's [10:14] going to the numbers but roughly I was [10:17] out doing 6 point something posts a week [10:19] right for the first two years it was all [10:21] incremental so I remember not too long [10:23] went back and looked and it was like I [10:24] had like seven people the first day yeah [10:27] maybe eight a nine the next day and then [10:29] I got into the teens and that was my [10:31] motivation where I got teens this time I [10:32] got 20 people today I just kept going [10:35] and kept going and kept going and little [10:36] things would happen somewhere along the [10:38] lines I don't know how it happened to be [10:40] honest with you but this small group of [10:42] people some of them are pretty big now [10:43] step out and they had this little group [10:45] of people that agreed to share each [10:46] other's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] so hey hey you're doing [10:49] good stuff you want to join us I'm like [10:50] ok so then they helped started sharing [10:52] my stuff then I shared it out and linked [10:54] I mean on Twitter Twitter was really big [10:56] in two thousand nine ten eleven when I [10:58] was taken off so I shared on Twitter [11:00] that got me going then of course some of [11:03] the blog's [11:04] got cotton SEO so that drove it and so [11:07] every time there was an opportunity and [11:08] then you know someone would give it name [11:10] it something that would build on it so [11:11] was it like this [11:12] it was more like steps yeah like I'd be [11:15] plateaued for a while something would [11:17] happen I'd shoot up then I plateau from [11:19] I'd shoot up yeah I just I just stuck [11:21] with it and was they call the sales guy [11:24] back then or something different that's [11:26] why the name of my companies the sales [11:27] guy because it was it was basically a [11:28] sales guy block I'm a sales guy right [11:31] yeah but that was the original name of [11:33] the block yes yes and the reason it's [11:35] name of the company is once I got that [11:37] big it had that much juice I didn't want [11:39] to change name and lose all my freaking [11:41] SEO juice that would've been stupid you [11:43] know exactly dumb to change it so I just [11:45] took the name and made my company are [11:47] some of the original blog post still [11:49] it's still out there on the site yeah [11:52] somewhere along the line you know this [11:54] is what I get for not being too [11:55] detail-oriented we've migrated to [11:58] different platforms a couple times we've [11:59] redone another blog then we'd be down [12:02] the website a couple times and I didn't [12:04] notice clearly but not too long ago I [12:06] went back to find my first post and [12:08] there's about eight or nine or ten or [12:11] eleven post it just disappear so I can't [12:14] I can't find my very first one but yes [12:17] they're all still there go to a sales [12:19] guy calm you can go all the way back to [12:21] probably March or April of 2009 when I [12:24] started February is not there for some [12:26] reason and how often do you still put [12:28] out original content that you write [12:30] yourself on the blog not very often yeah [12:33] I mean not very it's never I do a lot of [12:35] video and LinkedIn I'll get blogs once [12:38] in a while but yeah not as often as I [12:40] should yeah yeah no cool all right man [12:44] so let's talk let's talk about the [12:45] elephant in the room tell people who are [12:47] listening they don't know what you know [12:48] the elephant in the room what about the [12:51] elephant in the room tell me what do you [12:56] mean tell us about that what you that's [12:58] your you know yeah look I think most [13:03] people are chicken [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [13:05] most people have balls we create an [13:07] environment where organizations don't [13:09] like going to uncomfortable places [13:11] everybody tries to play it safe people [13:13] try them one of my phrases I didn't make [13:16] this phrase it but I love the most is [13:18] play to win not to lose hope you play [13:20] not to lose so if there's something [13:22] going on that needs to be address it [13:24] needs to be fixed that is really the [13:26] problem but it's uncomfortable nobody [13:28] nobody calls it out but I'm like [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [13:30] come on people really did that that [13:33] right there that's the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] prom are [13:35] we not going to talk about this [13:36] seriously and we we got to pretend that [13:38] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] doesn't exist come on man what's [13:41] the number-one problem you see when [13:43] you're working with companies that [13:44] people don't want to look at leadership [13:50] their product usually leadership in [13:53] their product it's like look you know [13:54] what it is it's like anything else nine [13:56] out of ten times Pete well okay there's [14:00] two things nine out of ten times one of [14:02] the things mathas are gonna add up get [14:03] over it is people don't want to look at [14:05] things that is a reflection of them hmm [14:09] right people just don't want to believe [14:11] it could be that could be the culture [14:14] could be something they created doesn't [14:16] feel good so people try to pretend that [14:17] doesn't happen number two the reason [14:19] they avoid the thing in the rumors they [14:21] believe that management won't support it [14:22] what someone's going to get mad at them [14:24] or there's gonna be backlash right [14:26] that's basically what you're saying is [14:28] people don't have balls to speak of no [14:30] they don't want to own their own [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] or [14:33] they're afraid that someone's gonna [14:34] crucify them for pointing out yay [14:37] and we've done such a good job of this [14:39] in corporate America like if if [14:41] literally if Mary is [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up right [14:44] let's say Mary has made a whole bunch of [14:46] mistakes and we're running around trying [14:47] to solve a problem we all know that if [14:49] Mary daughter [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] together Mary's team [14:50] gotta [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] together you saw and but [14:53] nobody wants to call Mary on that and [14:55] then I call Marriott then I'm labeled as [14:56] not being a team player I'm not being [14:58] collaborative even I don't respect right [15:00] what about this one here's a great how [15:03] many times have we seen an organization [15:05] right get caught up in power grabs [15:08] people fighting for more employees [15:11] things I got fifty reported me 100 or I [15:13] want this and I want that so the company [15:15] is spinning its wheels not getting [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [15:16] done not because of a good product or [15:18] not because but because people are [15:19] fighting political infighting to get [15:22] their feet jumps when's the last time [15:24] you ever actually heard a leader or [15:27] people say it's about the fiefdom [15:29] fighting we got to stop [15:30] no one does it no and that's a problem [15:33] no one says a word because then they're [15:36] gonna be labeled is not working together [15:37] be labeled as the person who's [15:39] undermining teammates or label the [15:40] person is difficult to work with when [15:42] everybody else is difficult the worker [15:43] knows has the balls to say you know [15:45] Mary's not giving up that section not [15:47] because it's the right thing to do but [15:49] because she wants to hold on to this and [15:51] needs 27 employees instead of 13 and [15:53] needs 500 instead 150 you see I'm saying [15:55] ya know what is the balls to call ya [15:58] so how now obviously you know I'd say [16:03] obviously you're not everybody's cup of [16:05] tea right there's you know that not [16:08] everybody are gonna get [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] done with [16:11] your style right it takes people that [16:13] are right there's there's there's it's [16:16] gonna take somebody who's willing to [16:17] look at that stuff and take that kind of [16:20] football coach you know feedback right [16:23] to change something how do you get [16:26] organizations to get on board with these [16:27] type of changes that they've been [16:29] ignoring for many years it's cultural [16:32] and I'm not you know it's funny I don't [16:33] want to skirt the question I'm man [16:35] enough to know what I don't know right [16:37] it's my own come I'll do it for my own [16:38] companies but I'm not an organizational [16:39] bit um organization development coach I [16:42] didn't take no organizational [16:44] development I'm sure there's a lot of [16:45] ways to do that but if you wanted to get [16:47] brass tacks I can own it like companies [16:49] stop bullshitting like own your stuff [16:51] cradle create systems where people can [16:54] say things ferret out the politics don't [16:56] get caught up in it punish people who [16:58] play the politics be take someone whose [17:01] I don't come a whistleblower but take [17:02] someone who's courageous and does [17:04] something and reward them don't fire [17:07] them right but at the same token if [17:09] someone starts playing the game and [17:11] tries to you know call out the elephant [17:13] room not because it's actually the [17:14] elephant but they're trying to leverage [17:16] that for political gain shame them too [17:18] like we don't shame anybody [17:20] people aren't shame people start getting [17:21] shame they're gonna stop doing the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [17:23] and they're right now I can already hear [17:24] HR saying it is not appropriate someone [17:28] I don't even call them names just don't [17:30] accept the behaviors not enough [17:32] companies focus on the behaviors they [17:33] spend too much time on the results [17:35] mm-hmm so how challenging is it for you [17:39] to get in there and make some noise and [17:40] get get things to start you know [17:43] operating in a different way usually not [17:46] very because because I am authentic [17:48] everywhere I go [17:49] some people just won't hire me Soviet [17:52] but the people that do already know what [17:54] they're getting yep they're I know what [17:56] they're signing up for yeah I literally [17:57] lost what probably could have been a [17:58] quarter of a million dollar deal if not [18:00] more recently because this vice know the [18:03] worldwide North American vice-president [18:06] of sales who had four hundred people [18:08] under him which is the majority the [18:09] company reported the CRO was desperate [18:12] to have me and the CRO loved the book [18:13] you know obviously stay it out of it [18:15] right and they were all ready to move [18:17] and then HR saw one of my videos and [18:19] heard me drop a couple f-bomb coming [18:20] back we can not hire this guy right we [18:24] can not hire this guy now there's a [18:25] perfect example of why I don't do [18:26] corporate America and if they asked me [18:29] I'd tell him and I'm not each other [18:29] coming his name but what [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] yes I [18:32] said that organization allows H ah [18:36] Janelle [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] Sales who they can and [18:40] can't hire a Chinese are responsible for [18:43] those numbers and if he doesn't make his [18:44] numbers H I was not gonna take the hit [18:46] HR is not gonna be strung up that lady's [18:48] not gonna harass them in a sling but yet [18:51] she was able she had the authority to [18:53] pull the rug I know look I know that [18:55] some people don't like swings so I say [18:56] if you don't want me to swear you know [18:58] I'm not gonna change my attitude [18:59] personality but core I can do a aji [19:02] version not to swear that's fine but for [19:05] her to not even meet me not understand [19:07] the Proms he's got not understanding [19:08] organization not read the book not [19:09] understand the training to simply [19:11] blanket his ability to authority to [19:15] implement a particular training he wants [19:17] just just out of thin air that is one of [19:20] those dysfunctional companies of see [19:21] like I would never give my if I'm to see [19:24] I would never give my HR that type of [19:26] control HR stay in your [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] lane if [19:28] you got a problem and you're concerned [19:30] about his Lane crossing into yours get [19:32] together and say John here's my concerns [19:34] about what you're doing does this guy do [19:35] a g-rated version you know we have [19:38] people blah blah blah this is this can [19:40] we talk can I talk to one of them and [19:42] then collaboratively you can come to a [19:43] turn you don't give that tip up no way [19:45] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] yeah are you capable of a t version [19:49] yes wow that's that's something else [19:55] screwed up corporate America is so do [19:58] you stay in your lane with with certain [20:00] company sizes where you know it's just [20:02] an uphill battle to real really make an [20:04] impact for true change yeah generally [20:07] speaking right now we don't or I don't [20:09] engage at the C level for fortune 100 [20:14] fortune 4500 too big too much going on [20:18] too many silos to really show change now [20:22] look we hope to fix that over time as we [20:25] get bigger and bigger right [20:26] but right now you know we'll work with [20:29] Fortune 500 in I don't say silos in [20:33] chunks so we have we worked with Intel [20:35] we were Verizon so we'll do it in chunks [20:38] mm-hmm right but from a co-listing I'm [20:42] gonna cuz that's what I like to do is [20:44] really turnover sales on there's not [20:46] firing people hired but just turn over [20:48] their progress and really when you're [20:50] talking thousands hours of sales people [20:51] all over the world it's too hard to do [20:53] from the top so I prefer to do it want [20:56] to go horizontal mmm all right let's [21:00] talk about the book when did you first [21:03] write the book what was the inspiration [21:04] behind the book how is the how does the [21:07] book impacted a sales guy as an [21:09] organization we doubled revenues last [21:11] year that's how it impacted it I mean [21:13] yeah it it it's been huge and unit are [21:18] you gonna write another book yeah I [21:20] started to but I'm still still working [21:22] through all the benefits as to the [21:26] upside of this one so rather than [21:28] rushing to another one I started it and [21:30] now I'm put it on pause from and I want [21:33] to finish playing this one out so you [21:36] know we launched an online gap selling [21:38] online training some people it's in beta [21:40] right now hopefully that shit's out for [21:42] the public by July then we got another I [21:45] got doing of course and that ones are [21:47] gonna go back into the studio and do a [21:49] second course for that one is the course [21:51] though like the book the book is it the [21:53] whole book in course format yeah very [21:57] cool what else do you guys do know there [21:59] what else is exciting you guys I think I [22:01] heard you say [22:02] you guys are starting to add more people [22:03] more coaches possibly yeah let's thats [22:06] all of a sudden hold now because I don't [22:08] know what the in-person environments [22:10] gonna look like that's what we're sort [22:11] of doubling down and going after the [22:14] online piece we just got lucky as [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [22:16] that we had we were I'm doing this on [22:21] purpose 99% of the way to 90% 99% done [22:30] filming and doing all the content for [22:33] the online version right when COBIT hit [22:35] hmm so literally we had like like six [22:38] videos to go and they were like guys [22:40] will closing on monday come in on Friday [22:42] let's knock them all out we've been [22:43] doing it since January does that make [22:46] any sense yeah so literally we just got [22:48] so lucky that we had all the content [22:50] done the last day in the studio and then [22:53] we've been spending all this time in [22:54] Kovac putting it together so we wouldn't [22:56] be more lucky if we actually launched it [22:57] in cove it doesn't matter so now we have [22:59] this whole online version stuff that [23:00] we're doubling down on because we don't [23:01] know how many people gonna want in [23:03] person right and so most of all what you [23:07] do is on-site in person right was it was [23:10] there you guys you guys been doing [23:11] virtual now yes and actually given us a [23:15] b2c component so where companies aren't [23:17] really paying and we've been really nice [23:19] in the price point which is gonna change [23:20] soon here but we've been running these [23:22] um virtual trainings exact same training [23:25] we do for corporations just split into [23:28] it rather mean eight hours in a day it's [23:30] done it for hours and it's done two [23:32] hours over two days right yeah 99 bucks [23:34] and we put over a thousand people [23:37] through it Wow hmm that's awesome [23:40] hmm all right well amen thanks for [23:43] coming on the show I really appreciate [23:45] it [23:46] if just before we let you go anything [23:47] you want to tell people where they can [23:48] find you where they can find out the [23:50] book you know more about a sales guy all [23:52] that good stuff gap selling calm Keenan [23:57] calm when I Keenan dot live if you can't [24:01] find me you got bigger really if you if [24:04] you put in Keenan don't find me if you [24:06] put in the sales guy don't find me you [24:07] put in gap selling you don't find me you [24:09] got much bigger problems that I can't [24:11] help you with yeah and if they find a [24:13] copy of your original blog they might [24:14] have something to [24:16] Oh that'd be awesome [24:19] yes wait my first post would be dope [24:22] yeah all right man thanks I appreciate [24:24] it if you're listening to the podcast [24:25] please subscribe share with your friends [24:28] and we're listening to your feedback the [24:30] show is all about you for tuning in for [24:32] another episode of monster chat [24:33] presented by monster voice where we [24:36] share the tools methods and best [24:37] practices that business leaders use to [24:39] build new connections strengthen [24:41] relationships and impact sales and [24:43] organizations of all shapes and sizes if [24:45] you have any questions from today's show [24:47] and want to reach us directly please [24:49] text your question to four to four three [24:51] seven eight six nine six six [24:54] [Music]

===FILE=== SThDd_7Y5Fw - How To Ask Discovery Questions To Uncover Business Problems (Sell Playbook).txt
https://youtu.be/SThDd_7Y5Fw
How To Ask Discovery Questions To Uncover Business Problems (Sell Playbook)
[0:00] 
[0:00] 
[0:05] good morning everybody and welcome to
[0:07] this two-part Discovery Playbook episode
[0:12] of 30 minutes to president's Club my
[0:14] name is Arman fro and I'm here with my
[0:16] co-host Nick selski and folks there is
[0:19] no way we could cover all of Discovery
[0:22] in its true fullest form without
[0:24] breaking this into two different steps
[0:27] so today is part one you can think of
[0:30] today as the ignition in your car and
[0:33] that is how to ask Discovery questions
[0:36] in a way that uncovers pain but step two
[0:40] will be making sure your car is going in
[0:42] the right direction and so next week we
[0:44] will cover the agenda in the next steps
[0:47] of your call in other words those are
[0:49] the steering wheels in your car that
[0:51] make sure that once you find a problem
[0:53] that car is going in the right direction
[0:54] and you ultimately get access to power
[0:56] and all of these other things so Nick
[0:58] why should people listen so your
[1:00] inability to structure and manage the 22
[1:04] minutes of a 30-minute Discovery call
[1:07] that come after the pleasantries and
[1:09] agenda that you set in the beginning but
[1:11] before the next steps that you said at
[1:13] the end we'll have an outsized impact on
[1:17] your success as a salesperson and so for
[1:20] you to be successful in sales you have
[1:23] to know how to manage and run these
[1:26] interactions effectively we're going to
[1:29] teach you how to do it so that you do
[1:31] not have a rough ride as a salesperson
[1:33] it's 22 minutes to president's club
[1:35] today as we drive through Discovery Land
[1:38] and there will be four sections of this
[1:40] Playbook episode number one will be the
[1:43] keys to Discovery or the philosophies
[1:45] behind a good Discovery call then number
[1:47] two we'll cover the situation problem
[1:49] and impact framework that you can use to
[1:51] uncover problems through questions from
[1:54] there number three we'll give you some
[1:55] ways to make sure that Discovery doesn't
[1:57] feel like an interrogation and there's
[1:59] proper give and throughout the call and
[2:01] then lastly number four once you get all
[2:02] the problems you tell a couple stories
[2:04] we'll talk about how to wrap it all up
[2:06] into one big recap turnaround pitch and
[2:08] ultimately lead toward next steps all
[2:11] righty Nick so let's start with the keys
[2:13] to a good Discovery call great so we
[2:16] were talking about what are the things
[2:17] that need to be true in order for us to
[2:19] say that was a good Discovery call thing
[2:22] number one you have got to find problems
[2:26] that are worth solving and what that
[2:29] means me is you need to uncover business
[2:32] problems not process problems when I was
[2:36] selling billing software to law firms a
[2:38] process problem would be what takes our
[2:40] biller a lot of work and a ton of
[2:42] different clicks they actually have to
[2:43] go between two different applications in
[2:45] order to get our bills sent out okay
[2:48] that's a process problem a business
[2:50] problem related to this would be when we
[2:54] send our bills out they actually are not
[2:56] compliant with what our insurers need
[3:00] them to be and we end up having a lot of
[3:02] back and forth that results in our bills
[3:04] actually getting written down or written
[3:06] off where we don't actually collect the
[3:08] money that we were billing them that is
[3:10] something that hits the business's
[3:12] bottom not line not it takes a long time
[3:15] for bills to get done and so you've got
[3:18] to find pain and problems that impact
[3:21] the organization that you are selling to
[3:24] so that's the first one find problems
[3:25] worth solving number two Discovery
[3:29] should feel like a conversation not an
[3:32] interrogation there are two parts of
[3:34] this number one is the way you ask
[3:37] questions every question you ask should
[3:40] build on the next what most sellers do
[3:44] is they ask a million situational
[3:46] questions they say how do you do this
[3:49] how do you do that at pave what this
[3:51] sounded like is people would say how do
[3:52] you run a merit cycle how do you
[3:54] communicate Equity how many employees do
[3:56] you have when's your next marit cycle
[3:58] and none of these questions bu build on
[4:00] each other in other words it doesn't
[4:01] feel like you're listening to your
[4:03] prospect it feels like you're going
[4:05] through a checklist of questions instead
[4:08] what we'll talk about today is what's
[4:09] called vertical questioning where if you
[4:12] ask someone how are you running a merit
[4:14] cycle today they'll say we're running it
[4:16] on spreadsheets and then you ask them a
[4:19] deeper question about what it means to
[4:21] be running a compensation cycle on
[4:22] spreadsheets that is bringing your
[4:24] Discovery deeper not wider and then
[4:27] number two the other thing that makes
[4:29] Discovery an inter ation is people will
[4:31] literally pepper their prospects with
[4:33] 3,000 questions in a row and at the end
[4:36] of the call they'll do a five minute
[4:39] monologue pitch on all the ways they can
[4:42] help and up until that point that
[4:44] Prospect will literally have no idea
[4:47] what you do and so there should be give
[4:49] and take dosed throughout the entire
[4:52] Discovery call as you ask your vertical
[4:54] questions and that is how you make
[4:56] discovery not feel like an interrogation
[4:58] so that brings us to our last philosophy
[5:00] which is your prospect needs to see you
[5:02] as an adviser not an enemy and what that
[5:05] means is there's a lot of sales
[5:08] interactions that you have with Buyers
[5:10] where there's this weird like
[5:11] adversarial tension going on and we
[5:15] actually don't want that we want our
[5:17] buyer to trust us because when they
[5:19] trust us we're actually going to get a
[5:21] lot more information out of them and it
[5:23] will help us progress our sale and not
[5:25] waste time on bad opportunities as well
[5:27] and so some of the ways that you can get
[5:28] your buyer to see you as an adviser
[5:31] include number one let them come to
[5:34] their own answers or their own
[5:36] conclusions we talked about getting to
[5:38] problems and getting to pain earlier and
[5:41] when we get to that we actually want our
[5:44] buyer to be the one to vocalize the
[5:46] problems that they have or the
[5:48] challenges that they are dealing with
[5:50] rather than us putting words in their
[5:53] mouth because when they are the one to
[5:55] vocalize these things they then take
[5:57] ownership over what's going on on rather
[6:00] than feeling like you have prescribed
[6:02] something upon them number two in order
[6:06] to be seen as an adviser not an enemy is
[6:08] we want to avoid asking your typical
[6:11] salesy cringy questions oh Armand what
[6:15] would you do with all of that time back
[6:18] you want to come across as someone who
[6:19] is professional and competent and
[6:21] someone who is actually trying to help
[6:24] them not someone who is asking questions
[6:27] or acting in a way to trap them in a
[6:30] corner where now they have a problem
[6:32] that only your software can solve we're
[6:35] here to help them figure out is their
[6:37] problem worth solving can we solve it
[6:39] and how do we actually go about
[6:41] determining can we do that or not and
[6:43] this includes breaking many of the
[6:45] common sales stereotypes or traditional
[6:48] forms of advice that create an
[6:51] adversarial relationship between you and
[6:53] your prospects so for example you've
[6:55] probably heard the saying do not show
[6:57] price until you demonstrate value or
[7:00] don't show demo until you pepper them
[7:02] with 300 Discovery questions and don't
[7:04] get me wrong there's some truth to those
[7:06] things you should not quote in the first
[7:08] five minutes of meeting someone you
[7:09] shouldn't show a demo in the first five
[7:11] minutes of a discovery call but the way
[7:13] that you actually position these things
[7:15] to your prospect should be in their best
[7:18] interest not in your best interest so if
[7:21] someone asks hey am I going to see a
[7:22] demo the way you position that back to
[7:24] them is not no I need to ask you
[7:26] questions that I need the answers to
[7:28] First instead you say sure totally happy
[7:31] to go through a demo toward the back
[7:32] half of this call do you mind if I ask
[7:34] you a couple questions to get a sense of
[7:35] how you're doing this stuff today so I
[7:37] don't waste your time showing you every
[7:38] single thing we have to offer because it
[7:41] might not all be relevant is that a good
[7:42] with you and then from there you can
[7:44] continue the rest of the call so those
[7:46] are your Three core philosophies to sell
[7:48] in a way that doesn't feel like selling
[7:50] find problems worth solving make it a
[7:52] conversation not an interrogation and
[7:54] position yourself as an adviser on the
[7:56] same side of the table not as an enemy
[7:58] those are the philosophies in our next
[8:00] Playbook episode we are going to cover
[8:03] how you kick off a sales call everything
[8:05] from small talk to how you set an agenda
[8:07] today let's assume that you've already
[8:09] set an agenda and now you are into that
[8:12] 22 minute chunk of the discovery call
[8:15] we're going to be talking about a
[8:17] framework that you can use to guide the
[8:19] altitude of the conversation that you
[8:21] are having with a prospect and the
[8:24] framework is called Situation problem
[8:27] impact at the highest level this is what
[8:30] it means situation we need to understand
[8:33] what's going on in our prospects World
[8:36] relative to the areas that we help with
[8:39] problem we need to understand what ain't
[8:42] going well where are their issues where
[8:44] are their
[8:45] challenges impact why do those problems
[8:49] matter and so our responsibility is to
[8:52] understand what's going on in their
[8:54] world what isn't going well why does
[8:57] that matter and that is what helps us
[9:00] drive a deal and run an effective
[9:02] Discovery call let's make this real give
[9:04] me an example for pave Armand so to give
[9:06] you a sense of what this would look like
[9:08] in a past sales cycle of mine is pave
[9:10] was selling compensation software and so
[9:13] an example situation that we'd find
[9:16] prospects in is they were running
[9:18] compensation reviews in spreadsheets but
[9:20] there are no problems associated with
[9:22] that the problem associated with that is
[9:25] the fact that when you have compensation
[9:27] reviews being run in 300 different
[9:28] spreadsh it's actually really hard to
[9:31] figure out all the decisions that each
[9:34] individual manager is making in one of
[9:36] the 300 spreadsheets but that doesn't
[9:39] really impact the business like I could
[9:40] see how it's a problem but like why does
[9:42] that actually matter that brings us to
[9:45] impact when you can't oversee all of the
[9:47] compensation decisions of every single
[9:49] manager you tend to have managers making
[9:52] really biased compensation decisions and
[9:54] that leads to compensation inequities
[9:57] and that is how you get written up in
[9:59] Business Insider and you definitely do
[10:02] not want that and so when your Champion
[10:05] is going and communicating to the
[10:08] business you want them communicating in
[10:10] business impact you don't want them to
[10:12] say I want to buy pave because we're
[10:14] running compensation reviews and
[10:16] spreadsheets that's how you get shut
[10:18] down you want them saying I want to buy
[10:20] pave because we have massive
[10:23] compensation in equities and the reason
[10:26] for that is because of the situation
[10:28] we're in because we're planning
[10:30] compensation and spreadsheets so I'll
[10:32] give you an example Armand and this is
[10:34] my new method for issuing an RFP which
[10:37] is sharing 30 MPC initiatives situations
[10:41] problems impacts on the show here is a
[10:43] real situation problem impact that we
[10:45] are dealing with we have a mailing list
[10:47] at 30 minutes to president's Club of
[10:49] 50,000 people and we want it to grow to
[10:52] 100,000 people there's a situation
[10:54] here's a problem it's not growing fast
[10:57] enough and it's not at 100,000 people
[10:59] which is where we want it to be here's
[11:02] the impact we have a book that is
[11:04] releasing in August and we are not going
[11:06] to hit our book sale goal if we don't
[11:09] get it to that 100,000 mailing list
[11:12] number because the mailing list is one
[11:13] of the biggest drivers of Book Sales if
[11:16] I were somebody selling something that
[11:18] could help us grow our mailing list
[11:20] those would be the situations problems
[11:23] and impacts that I'd be looking to
[11:25] uncover on a discovery call with yours
[11:28] truly so let's now talk about some of
[11:31] the ways that we can uncover things
[11:33] layer by layer and we're intentionally
[11:36] going layer by layer you can't start a
[11:38] sales call at the impact level you have
[11:40] to understand some basic information
[11:43] about their situation in order to
[11:47] understand context for the problems and
[11:49] the impact so we always start at the top
[11:52] and go down layer by layer by layer and
[11:55] so there's a couple different ways that
[11:56] we can understand the situation
[11:59] that we are dealing with the easiest way
[12:02] to understand the situation that your
[12:04] prospect is in is right after you set
[12:06] your agenda simply ask why they took the
[12:09] call in the first place they will give
[12:11] you one of two types of answers they'll
[12:13] give you a situation answer where
[12:15] they'll say yeah the reason I took the
[12:17] call is because we're managing
[12:19] compensation and spreadsheets or they'll
[12:21] actually bring you right to the problem
[12:23] they'll say look the reason that we
[12:25] reached out is we're managing comp and
[12:26] spreadsheets and it's taking so much
[12:29] freaking time they'll bring you to the
[12:32] problem level now if they don't what you
[12:35] can do is sometimes people will say ah
[12:38] well the reason that I reached out is
[12:40] one of our investors told us value if
[12:43] you don't get the situation from the
[12:44] first why just ask why again you might
[12:47] say I'm sure something caught your eye
[12:50] I'm curious my guess is you don't take
[12:51] every single call with every investor
[12:53] that tells you to look at some thing I'm
[12:55] curious what prompted you to take the
[12:56] call with us specifically or was there
[12:58] anything that seemed particular
[12:59] interesting to you and that again will
[13:01] usually drop you into a situation or a
[13:03] problem that's number one another way
[13:06] that we might do this if we're not
[13:08] really getting as much on the why you
[13:09] take the call is we might try to ask
[13:12] about their current state their current
[13:13] situation and where they want their
[13:15] situation to go if I'm doing this
[13:17] newsletter example and I'm selling to me
[13:20] one thing that I might say is I
[13:21] understand you've got this newsletter
[13:23] that you you and Arman have been running
[13:24] for a couple years give me a sense of
[13:26] where it is today and where you're
[13:27] hoping to take it I'm not saying what
[13:29] are you what is the number you're
[13:31] looking to grow to I'm asking a wider
[13:33] question because maybe my focus is hey
[13:35] we want to improve the content Force
[13:36] before we grow but what I'm trying to
[13:38] understand is where are they today where
[13:40] are they looking to go and that helps me
[13:42] understand some details that will help
[13:44] me flesh out their situation and so the
[13:46] last type of question that we can use to
[13:48] understand the prospect situation is
[13:51] what is called a what how question and
[13:54] these are questions that typically I
[13:56] don't recommend you use in general
[14:00] you're going to want to lean on the why'
[14:02] you take the call or the current state
[14:04] to Future State questions the reason for
[14:07] that is questions like those sometimes
[14:09] smart prospects will say let me tell you
[14:11] about the situation but they'll also
[14:13] take you down to where their problems
[14:16] are with that situation and so you
[14:17] actually get more juice for your squeeze
[14:20] with one question with those than you
[14:23] would with a wh how question the reason
[14:26] that you might use a wh how question is
[14:29] if you are talking to a buyer that is
[14:31] not good enough to automatically bring
[14:34] you down to problems which is why they
[14:36] should be on a sales call in the first
[14:37] place and you need to understand a bit
[14:40] about how they're just doing things
[14:41] today in order for you to then
[14:44] understand what some problems they might
[14:46] have are so an example for pave that we
[14:48] talked about would be how are you
[14:50] currently managing your compensation
[14:52] process and you're going to get a lot of
[14:54] technical process information and then
[14:56] it's on you as the salesperson to bring
[14:58] them down
[14:59] problems so to recap there are three
[15:01] ways you can map out their existing
[15:03] situation you can ask why they took the
[15:05] call you can ask about their current
[15:07] state and future State and then you can
[15:09] ask a what or how situational question
[15:12] but you should spend as little time as
[15:15] humanly possible at the situation level
[15:18] again none of these things are actually
[15:20] problems you want to get the situation
[15:21] as quickly as humanly possible and then
[15:24] turn it into a problem and that begins
[15:26] vertical questioning so there are three
[15:29] ways that we'll talk about to turn those
[15:31] situations into problem the first way is
[15:35] you might not actually have to do it and
[15:38] the reason for that is if you ask a
[15:41] sophisticated Prospect why they took the
[15:43] call and why again they'll often times
[15:46] say the reason that I took the call is
[15:48] because we're planning compon
[15:49] spreadsheets and it's massively
[15:51] unscalable and sometimes they'll bring
[15:53] you all the way to the impact level
[15:55] usually not but they might even say and
[15:57] we have big compensation in equities why
[16:00] questions tend to get you problems more
[16:02] commonly than what or how questions the
[16:05] other way that you might not have to ask
[16:07] for a problem is a good executive will
[16:10] say these are my business priorities my
[16:12] current state my future State Etc and
[16:15] the reason I chose these priorities is
[16:18] because these are some of the problems
[16:19] we're hoping to solve so you might not
[16:22] need to even ask for problems they will
[16:25] be presented to you at which point you
[16:26] start to turn those problems into
[16:28] stories and get business impact but then
[16:31] if they don't proactively suggest any
[16:33] problems that means you're still stuck
[16:35] at the situational level in other words
[16:37] you might still be stuck at we're
[16:38] managing compound spreadsheets and so
[16:41] now you need to ask for a problem if
[16:43] they don't proactively give you a
[16:46] problem the easiest way that I've found
[16:48] it to ask for a problem is you can do
[16:51] what's called Turning want into wise so
[16:55] if someone says we are currently
[16:57] managing our compensation on
[16:58] spreadsheets and we want a better way to
[17:00] manage it more
[17:01] scalably all you have to do is turn that
[17:04] want into a why you might say well that
[17:07] that's great my guess is you didn't wake
[17:08] up yesterday and think I want a more
[17:11] scalable way to manage it I'm curious
[17:13] what's driving your desire to have a
[17:15] more scalable way to plan compensation
[17:18] that's number one the other way is you
[17:21] can invert the desire invert the want so
[17:26] if they say we're looking for a more
[17:28] scalable way to do compensation planning
[17:30] I might invert that want by saying
[17:34] gotcha so that must mean that the way
[17:36] you're doing it today is taking a ton of
[17:39] time or things are breaking or my guess
[17:41] is it's really hard for you to do this
[17:43] with 10 managers 20 managers 30 managers
[17:46] what have you in other words I take that
[17:48] desire to have a more scalable process
[17:50] and I infer the problem based on that so
[17:55] sometimes they're going to take you to
[17:56] the problem when you ask why'd you take
[17:57] the call sometimes s they're going to
[17:59] understand their motivations and their
[18:00] wants and you just need to turn that
[18:02] into a problem other times they're not
[18:04] even going to know what the problem is
[18:07] or be able to proactively bring it up
[18:09] and so then the responsibility is on you
[18:12] as the salesperson to raise the problem
[18:15] to bring up the issue that you believe
[18:17] based upon your knowledge of their
[18:19] situation and their space that they
[18:22] might be dealing with and the best way
[18:24] to do that is using what we call
[18:25] typically language where you think about
[18:28] what problem might they be dealing with
[18:30] or other people like them deal with and
[18:32] you say typically when I'm talking to
[18:33] people like you this is often a problem
[18:36] or this is often an issue so if I'm
[18:38] selling to law firms typically what I'm
[18:40] talking to insurance defense law firms
[18:43] one of the big focuses is their
[18:45] attorneys waste a ton of time going back
[18:47] and forth with clients on making sure
[18:49] that their bills are compliant and I'm
[18:51] curious if that's something you all have
[18:52] been focused on also and what I'm doing
[18:55] here is now I have presented and laid on
[18:57] a silver platter here's a problem that I
[18:59] think you might be dealing with to see
[19:00] if they bite this is the least
[19:03] preferential one because again going
[19:05] back to our philosophies we want them to
[19:07] come to their own conclusions and have
[19:09] them be the one that present the problem
[19:10] not us be the one that presents it but
[19:12] if we're really stuck this is our last
[19:14] resort which is to raise the problem
[19:16] ourself so to recap you have three ways
[19:19] you can turn a situation into a problem
[19:21] way number one is you might not have to
[19:23] if you just ask them why again or if you
[19:25] ask them about their priorities way
[19:27] number two is you can ask for the
[19:29] problem by turning once into the wise or
[19:31] inverting the problem or you can suggest
[19:34] problems using typically language and
[19:36] now what we need to do is we need to
[19:38] turn this into impact now it's worth
[19:41] noting that very rarely does this mean
[19:43] you ask one situational question one
[19:46] problem question and one impact question
[19:49] especially at that problem level you're
[19:51] going to linger there a little bit
[19:53] longer than you will at the situational
[19:55] level because you want to more deeply
[19:57] understand the problem before just
[19:59] jumping right to the impact so you might
[20:01] combine multiple of those questions
[20:02] together but once you are certain that
[20:05] the prospect has validated and said yes
[20:08] I agree that this is a problem that is
[20:10] your jumping off point to start moving
[20:12] toward impact once you get problem
[20:15] agreement so the first way that you can
[20:17] get impact is through what's called an
[20:19] impact story you can get them to tell an
[20:22] emotional painful story that adds color
[20:25] to the problem the easiest way to get
[20:28] this is the moment they agree to the
[20:30] problem ask them a Magic Moment question
[20:33] and what that means is I might say hey
[20:36] Nick totally understand it sounds like
[20:39] you feel like there might be some bias
[20:41] in the manager decision- making my guess
[20:43] is you didn't wake up yesterday and
[20:46] think my managers totally don't know how
[20:48] to make comp decisions when was the
[20:50] moment that you realized that that was a
[20:52] problem and when you ask when the moment
[20:55] they realize that thing was a problem
[20:57] you will almost all always get a story
[21:00] in return because there's a specific
[21:02] moment when a manager made a bad
[21:04] decision and the employee complained to
[21:06] HR and then you found all of these other
[21:08] issues that's number one number two
[21:11] comes on the back of what Arman just
[21:14] talked about which is once you get one
[21:16] of those stories you need to determine
[21:19] was this a oneoff bad experience or is
[21:24] this a trend that they are focused on
[21:26] solving and so one of the ways you might
[21:29] ask that is they've just shared this
[21:30] story of this nightmare employee
[21:32] complain they had to call in some HR
[21:35] folks and mitigate the situation and
[21:37] what you might ask here is gosh you know
[21:40] I really don't mean to minimize how
[21:42] brutal that must have been but I'm
[21:44] curious is that something that you've
[21:45] seen happen on a on an ongoing basis or
[21:47] was it more of a one-off and what I want
[21:49] to identify here is is this something
[21:51] that is happening more than once that
[21:53] they need to solve or was this a
[21:55] one-time frustrating experience which is
[21:58] going to be less of a focus for the bus
[22:00] to solve a onetime nightmare verus a
[22:03] recurring bad dream one thing that can
[22:05] often times soften these impact
[22:07] questions when you're asking about
[22:09] Trends goals priorities being missed it
[22:12] can be really inflammatory you can use
[22:14] what's called a humbling disclaimer
[22:17] which is a tactic that was developed by
[22:19] Charles Mower and has been covered
[22:20] multiple times on his episodes on this
[22:22] show and what that involves is all
[22:24] you're doing is you're taking all of the
[22:27] uncomfortable concerns you have about
[22:29] the question and putting those on the
[22:31] table so before you ask a question all
[22:34] you have to do is say something like oh
[22:37] well I re recognize that this is
[22:39] probably a really awkward question or
[22:41] look like I was I was totally raised not
[22:44] to assume this but or I recognize that
[22:47] this question might be totally out of
[22:49] bounds and just by calling out the fact
[22:51] that it's an awkward question shows that
[22:54] you have EQ and naturally they start to
[22:57] brace and like okay this isn't actually
[23:01] that bad of a question versus if you
[23:03] just ask dead on hey are you going to
[23:05] miss your highering goal it can come off
[23:06] as a little bit inflammatory and make a
[23:08] prospect defensive yeah and that
[23:10] actually applies to the last way that we
[23:12] might get to impact also which is
[23:14] getting to impact metrics if you just
[23:17] flat out ask your buyer what metric is
[23:20] suffering the most as a result of that
[23:22] they're going to be like whoa you're
[23:24] trying to paint me into a corner I can
[23:25] tell you're trying to sell me and so
[23:27] this is where we can some softening
[23:29] language where you might say something
[23:31] like I appreciate you sharing that that
[23:33] that's got to be really frustrating you
[23:35] know one of the things that I found when
[23:36] I'm talking to folks as they start to
[23:38] socialize things like this internally is
[23:40] it can be helpful to tie what we just
[23:42] talked about to a kpi that this is
[23:44] impacting so that folks actually care
[23:46] about the problem not that they
[23:48] shouldn't on its own I guess I'm curious
[23:51] as you think about this is there a
[23:53] metric or or kpi in particular that you
[23:55] feel like is suffering the most because
[23:57] of this comp problem that you guys are
[23:59] dealing with and that can be a way to
[24:01] ask the direct what metric is suffering
[24:04] question without smacking them in the
[24:06] face and feeling like you are leading
[24:08] them on with just the intent to sell
[24:10] them bingo so we covered three ways to
[24:13] get impact as well you have impact
[24:15] stories through the Magic Moment
[24:17] question and then we use humbling
[24:19] disclaimers to get impact Trends goals
[24:22] priorities or impact metrics now folks
[24:25] we've talked only about the questions
[24:27] you're going to ask from situation to
[24:29] problem to impact but number one like we
[24:32] mentioned earlier there will be multiple
[24:34] iterative questions at each layer and
[24:36] number two if you ask all 20 questions
[24:39] in a row that is the definition of an
[24:42] interrogation and so it's time to talk
[24:45] about how you make sure that you give
[24:47] and take in other words give in other
[24:48] words actually say things as you do
[24:52] Discovery so the first type of way or
[24:54] the first thing you can do to give a
[24:56] little bit in your discovery is doing
[24:59] what's called a playback so a playback
[25:02] shows that you're
[25:04] listening my rule of thumb of when I do
[25:06] a playback or a recap of what they say
[25:09] is whenever a prospect gives me two or
[25:12] more problems I'm going to play back and
[25:15] recap both of them so it's not like
[25:18] every single thing a prospect says I'm
[25:21] parting it back to them but if they do a
[25:24] long monologue over a minute and they
[25:26] just throw two or three things at me I'm
[25:28] I'm going to lay all three of them on
[25:29] the table and I might say okay Nick it
[25:31] sounds like you're really focused on
[25:33] communicating Equity to employees you're
[25:35] really focused on making your
[25:36] compensation reviews more scalable and
[25:38] you're also really focused on working
[25:41] rolling out this new Equity Compensation
[25:43] Plan let's focus on number two you
[25:46] accomplish two things with a playback
[25:48] number one you demonstrate that and then
[25:50] number two you allow yourself to isolate
[25:52] the problem that is most important to
[25:55] you without them feeling like you've
[25:57] missed the other too but the problem
[26:00] with the playback is it only shows that
[26:01] you're listening so you can't just ask
[26:03] questions and recap ask questions and
[26:06] recap you actually have to take it a
[26:07] step further and that brings us to the
[26:10] pylon when someone has shared a bit
[26:13] about the problem again we are trying to
[26:15] position ourselves as an advisor who
[26:18] understands the full scope of what they
[26:21] might be dealing with because when
[26:22] they're talking with someone who gets
[26:24] them or gets their world they're more
[26:26] likely to share with someone who need to
[26:28] be totally re-educated and so one of the
[26:31] best ways to get someone to share more
[26:33] while also feeling like you're on the
[26:35] same side of the table with them is to
[26:37] do what's called the pylon which is
[26:38] simply if they've shared A and B about a
[26:41] problem you can play back yeah that's
[26:44] really frustrating and also a lot of the
[26:46] folks I talk to are dealing with c and d
[26:48] so when I would sell billing software to
[26:50] law firms and they would complain about
[26:52] the deductions that would happen on
[26:54] their bills when they didn't have the
[26:56] perfect format for their insurance
[26:57] companies which is a really weird
[26:59] problem I would say yeah that's super
[27:01] frustrating and then it actually also
[27:02] ends up affecting your attorneys where
[27:04] they have to go and relitigate their
[27:07] bills simply to get them paid and they
[27:09] have to spend hours just like changing
[27:11] words on their bills to make sure
[27:13] they're compliant I I imagine your
[27:15] attorneys have voice frustration also
[27:17] and now I can get them talking about the
[27:19] attorney frustration not just the
[27:21] billing Department's frustration and so
[27:23] when you pile on it get gets some
[27:26] feeling like ah this person gets me but
[27:28] also allows you to uncover even more
[27:30] pain and frustration and an authentic
[27:32] another example of the pylon because I
[27:34] think it's so important is when at pave
[27:37] an HR leader would explain or complain
[27:40] about the fact that employees don't
[27:41] really understand how much they spend on
[27:43] benefits I would always explain to them
[27:45] when I left my previous job to come to
[27:47] pave I got a cobra letter and the Cobra
[27:49] letter was $800 a month to pay for my
[27:53] own Healthcare and I was like holy cow
[27:56] that's a lot of money that my past job
[27:57] was paying for my Healthcare and they
[27:59] will always look at me and be like I
[28:02] know and that is the reaction that you
[28:05] want when you do a playback is they
[28:07] think oh my God this person finally
[28:09] freaking gets it for once someone
[28:11] understands my complaints and that is
[28:14] when you can finally go from just
[28:17] agreeing with the problem piling on to
[28:19] the problem recapping the problem to
[28:22] showing how you can help is once you get
[28:24] that I know problem agreement moment and
[28:27] the way that you quote unquote pitch is
[28:31] it's one thing to talk about your
[28:32] product but the best way to pitch is
[28:34] actually to explain how you helped
[28:36] someone else in the exact same situation
[28:38] solve the same problem this is called a
[28:41] parallel story so if I was selling to
[28:44] Uber and Uber was having all kinds of
[28:47] issues around compensation inequities
[28:51] what I'm going to do is I'm going to
[28:52] find another company that went public
[28:56] ideally someone in their space and might
[28:58] tell them the story about how oh when
[29:00] door Dash went public they were seeing
[29:03] the same type of thing by the way those
[29:05] weren't customers at pave at the time
[29:06] these are just hypothetical examples but
[29:08] I would tell them an example of how I
[29:10] helped door Dash solve that same type of
[29:13] problem and the solution will be
[29:15] implicit in the social proof and so what
[29:17] this allows you to do is it allows you
[29:19] to dose your pitch throughout the entire
[29:23] sales call without dumping an entire
[29:25] pitch on them and frankly without really
[29:27] talking about product while still giving
[29:29] them a sense of how you can help them so
[29:32] at this point in the call we've learned
[29:34] a lot about what they're dealing with
[29:37] what's not going well and why that
[29:39] matters and we've shared tidbits of why
[29:42] we might be able to solve that and some
[29:44] similar customer stories to make them
[29:46] feel pretty good but in order for us to
[29:49] have the right to ask for the next step
[29:51] and honestly to improve our chances of
[29:54] getting to that next step we need to
[29:56] give them a bit to make them say wow
[29:58] there's something here and so the way
[30:00] before we get to the last five minutes
[30:02] we're going to talk about the last five
[30:03] minutes of a sales call in our next
[30:05] Playbook and we're going to talk about
[30:07] the five minute drill there but before
[30:09] that we need to give them what we might
[30:10] call the Grand harah pitch where we give
[30:14] them a reason to want to keep moving
[30:15] through the sales process what we're
[30:17] going to do step one we are going to
[30:19] recap the biggest three problems or
[30:23] Milestones that we uncovered in this
[30:25] call we got to show them hey was
[30:28] listening and I heard you and we've got
[30:29] to reorient their head around man this
[30:32] is really frustrating so recap the big
[30:34] three problems you've heard from there
[30:37] you're going to share the three bullets
[30:40] of how you can help solve those big
[30:43] three problems and again this might be
[30:46] where you would lean on a customer story
[30:48] but really you want to share hey I heard
[30:50] your problems we can solve those
[30:52] problems and here's a tiny bit of detail
[30:54] to make it believable and for bonus
[30:57] points we're going to break the cardinal
[30:59] sin of software sales which is everyone
[31:02] thinks that you're not allowed to demo
[31:03] on the first call and the reality is if
[31:06] things are going really really really
[31:08] freaking well I actually think that
[31:10] showing software on the first call a
[31:13] five minute qu harbor tour demo can
[31:16] accelerate your sales cycle and here's
[31:19] why what you can do in that harbor tour
[31:21] demo is you can show them that you solve
[31:24] the three problems you can show the
[31:26] dashboard really quickly you can show
[31:28] them the compensation planner and their
[31:30] ability to toggle between all the
[31:31] different managers you can show them the
[31:33] ability to communicate equity and so you
[31:36] answer the first question which is can
[31:39] you solve a problem and you do that all
[31:41] in the first call but then you use the
[31:44] next call as the carrot for them to
[31:47] figure out how you solve the problem so
[31:51] that demo can often times get them
[31:52] really excited because they're like oh
[31:54] my God this thing is real I have all
[31:56] these questions around does your thing
[31:59] actually fit for my business but when
[32:01] you make it real for them as opposed to
[32:03] just hearing it in abstract words it
[32:06] oftentimes increases the chances that
[32:08] they're going to take a next step with
[32:10] you and that leads us into no pun
[32:13] intended The Next Step but the next step
[32:16] is going to happen in next week's
[32:18] episode recap folks we talked through
[32:22] four sections section one were the key
[32:26] philosophies behind running a good
[32:27] discuss Rec call that included finding
[32:29] problems worth solving making sure that
[32:31] it feels like a conversation not an
[32:33] interrogation and then positioning
[32:35] yourself as an advisor not an adversary
[32:38] from there we walk through the situation
[32:39] problem impact framework we walk through
[32:42] three ways to map out the situation
[32:43] whether you're asking why they took the
[32:45] call the current state future state or
[32:47] asking what how situational questions
[32:49] from there we talked about how to turn
[32:51] the situation into a problem in other
[32:54] words if you ask why you might not have
[32:55] to but if they don't give you one
[32:57] proactively you might have to ask for a
[32:58] problem and if you can't get a problem
[33:01] from there you might have to suggest a
[33:02] problem to them and then lastly we
[33:04] talked about the ways to get impact
[33:06] through getting impact stories by asking
[33:08] Magic Moment questions and then using
[33:10] humbling disclaimers to get impact
[33:12] Trends or impact metrics finally we
[33:15] talked about give and take playbacks to
[33:18] recap and show you're listening pylons
[33:20] to show that you understand the problem
[33:22] and then parallel stories to show how
[33:23] you can help and then we just talked
[33:25] about the quote unquote Grand turnaround
[33:27] pitch where you recap all the problems
[33:29] explain how you solve the problems and
[33:30] maybe even show a haror tour demo and
[33:33] that's a wrap Nick my question to you is
[33:36] how could people help us out here well
[33:37] folks one of the best ways to get better
[33:40] at Discovery calls believe it or not is
[33:43] having real Discovery calls with your
[33:46] prospects and in order for you to book
[33:48] real Discovery calls with your prospects
[33:51] that means you probably need to do a bit
[33:53] of prospecting and that might mean that
[33:54] you need to pick up the magic device
[33:56] called the phone and make a couple cold
[33:58] calls and believe it or not 30 minutes
[33:59] to president's Club is also here to help
[34:01] you with that if you didn't know in
[34:04] August the 30 minutes to president's
[34:05] Club book on cold calling is coming out
[34:08] and so if you want to learn how to be
[34:10] able to pick up the phone call one of
[34:12] your dream prospects and actually book a
[34:14] meeting with them this might help there
[34:16] will be a link in the show notes or
[34:18] description of this video for you to
[34:20] pre-order the book or if it's already
[34:21] been released get access to it check it
[34:23] out I promise it will help you build
[34:25] more Pipeline and have more great
[34:26] discovery calls like this this one
[34:29] 

===FILE=== U0ODhbJpUuo - 154 - Asking Questions Preparation and Gap Selling with Keenan.txt
https://youtu.be/U0ODhbJpUuo
#154 - Asking Questions, Preparation, and Gap Selling with Keenan

[0:00] [Music] [0:04] welcome to the catalyst cell podcast [0:06] whether you are sales professional not [0:08] in sales but interested in helping [0:09] people solve problems [0:10] our founder CEO is looking to grow your [0:12] business you'll find practical tools [0:14] stories and experience you can apply to [0:16] your role this is Mike Simmons I'm the [0:18] founder of catalyst sale [0:19] I'm here with Kenan CEO a sales guy [0:21] consulting keynote speaker level 2 ski [0:24] instructor and the author of gap selling [0:26] Kenan thanks for joining me today [0:28] hey my pleasure brother glad to be here [0:30] it is great to have young I have been I [0:32] originally reached out to you back in [0:35] 2017 was June we'd hit episode 42 of the [0:39] podcast it's like I'd love to have you [0:40] on and never was able to get it done and [0:43] then now here we are I am I'm excited to [0:48] be on and actually to be honest with you [0:50] the first couple of times I went through [0:51] your stuff I thought God who is this [0:53] and actually just so that you know this [0:56] is gonna be a little bit more explicit [0:58] than most of the podcasts we usually [0:59] keep this thing pretty clean but [1:01] Keenan's a guy from Boston I'm the guy [1:02] from New York [1:03] and although the West Coast has helped [1:06] smooth out my edges we might let some [1:08] language go today but so I looked at [1:10] your stuff and I'm like who's this guy [1:11] just tripping away about stuff promoting [1:14] himself does he really have the Jews [1:17] does he really have the background can [1:19] he actually execute and my mind's [1:21] changed and I hope it continues to [1:23] change as we go through the discussion [1:24] today well thank you well thank you I [1:26] guess my first question back to you is [1:28] you know you saw me as promoting myself [1:30] that's interesting because when I look I [1:33] don't do painstaking efforts that with [1:34] very few occasion to actually promote [1:36] myself I just talked about the problems [1:38] and challenges and by default people get [1:40] to know who I am but I I feel I will buy [1:43] you a what am i Keenan shirt and I've [1:46] seen to an autographed book and one [1:48] other thing I keep you guys if you can [1:50] find 5 pieces of content where I [1:53] actually promote myself like hey check [1:56] out Keenan or hey check out a sales guy [1:58] where's this where that that's not a [2:00] paid ad on Facebook which our marketing [2:02] team does once in a while but coming [2:03] straight from me I'll do that for you I [2:05] bet you can't do it as much as I would [2:07] like a t-shirt and a signed copy of the [2:10] book I don't have time to go through and [2:11] look at your content to figure out where [2:13] you are you did it as it's no dog I just [2:15] know that I had a personal bias [2:17] that was created for whatever reason a [2:20] lot here's another one just shouting you [2:23] know from the rooftop in the end and [2:25] part of it might be my own uncle lack of [2:27] comfort in doing that kind of stuff so I [2:28] I don't I don't know what it is fun I'm [2:31] happy I've got you on here I'm happy [2:33] that I read gaps selling I think one of [2:35] the things that you hit on in the book [2:37] and it's such an important piece for [2:40] everybody that's out there and we'll get [2:41] into a lot of detail relative the book [2:43] but why do you think that sales reps [2:46] today or organizations in general focus [2:49] on product over problem well one because [2:53] in the top right I just don't think over [2:55] the top and I think what the heaven [2:57] taught is so product centric because [2:58] it's been ingrained and and if I had [3:01] more time and money I'd hire a research [3:02] company to really spare it the stuff but [3:05] here's my hypothesis and thesis sales [3:07] like anything else has evolved over time [3:09] right and traditionally if you go back [3:12] to the beginning right selling was [3:15] basically people on the side of the road [3:17] right literally side of the road or in a [3:19] market and they're yelling at you to [3:21] stop and look at their stuff right they [3:24] didn't have time nor were most of them [3:26] very learning or educated right it was [3:28] because there weren't complex things to [3:30] buy back in the day it was my vegetables [3:32] over the vegetables of the guy next to [3:34] me or was my you know my blacksmith [3:36] services over the guy next to me and so [3:38] or was my um my little ailment which you [3:41] know we did in the late 18-hundreds is [3:42] all jacked up try to get people to buy [3:44] snake oil but right like that's what it [3:46] was and so someone's coming by whether [3:48] in a fair or they're in a town and [3:49] you're barking at them to get your [3:51] attention so you have to go as quick as [3:53] possible right so you just say hey look [3:55] it's got this took that and you firing [3:58] off and so we built off of that premise [4:00] so I just think you've got more [4:02] complicated they went back to what we [4:03] knew is it oh well stop yelling at them [4:06] you know sell this feature so the [4:07] benefit of this feature we kept building [4:09] off the promotion and pushing up the [4:11] product it wasn't until I don't know [4:13] I'll give probably rack and credit for [4:15] really one of the first people to [4:16] actually start thinking about it anyway [4:18] these things are supposed to do [4:19] something and I thought our deals are a [4:21] lot more complex and he came out with [4:23] spin and I think spin was the first real [4:25] you know selling methodology that [4:27] started to get you to stop thinking [4:28] about the way [4:29] is more to just than the product but I [4:31] just don't think it hit enough people [4:33] and I ain't know like anything else it's [4:34] hard to change cultures it's hard to [4:36] change mindset selling to the prom takes [4:38] much greater intellectual capacity it [4:41] takes creative critical thinking you [4:43] know so I think all of that led us to [4:44] where we are today and I think what's [4:46] getting better and I think people [4:47] understanding and it's resonating I [4:49] still think generally speaking the [4:51] majority of sales are still steeped in [4:53] that historical context well and one of [4:55] the things you talk about is this idea [4:56] of people trying to demonstrate their [4:58] level of intellect or how smart they are [5:01] by the words they say rather than by the [5:04] questions they ask yeah look I said all [5:08] the time you really really really really [5:09] want to impress somebody get better at [5:12] asking questions because questions [5:15] highlight your understanding of the [5:18] concepts or the context statements and [5:22] big words don't demonstrate your [5:24] understanding of what you're talking but [5:25] it just demonstrates your understanding [5:27] of a work right so I mean like I don't [5:30] know anything about you know I'm not in [5:32] the health dig here in the street but of [5:33] all of a sudden I ask somebody something [5:35] about how its tell metastasize and how [5:37] they manage to address it when and [5:39] metastasize cell what's what I'm looking [5:42] for mutates and does this person and [5:44] like how they do that great question all [5:47] of a sudden they think I'm a genius [5:48] right I don't need to make a statement [5:50] and use big words questions highlight [5:52] your understanding of a situation [5:55] environment or context and demonstrate [5:57] much greater sense of intellect well and [5:59] then we make the mistake we ask the [6:01] question and then we just keep going [6:02] instead of just shutting up and [6:04] listening why do we do that well okay [6:06] it's interesting I think people ask good [6:08] questions and those who ask good [6:10] questions that get the client to think [6:11] they don't keep going good I think [6:14] people who don't ask good questions and [6:15] ask stupid high-level superficial [6:17] questions are the ones who keep talking [6:19] and why is that [6:20] because they don't know like that [6:22] they're not intellectually connected to [6:24] the problem sets so they're only [6:25] thinking about the product the masking [6:28] product centric Stelling to try to [6:29] pretend they're problem centric slang [6:31] but they're really not so you've got a [6:33] you've got a document that's out there [6:35] and you know when it talks about the [6:38] problems that you solve as an [6:39] organization give a sense for the [6:42] problems any organization might be able [6:45] to solve really really well yeah I'm [6:47] gonna say it's five I mean look I'm sure [6:51] si P right and their entire ERP system [6:55] can solve a Schiller problem so yes [6:57] right but even then I would argue that [6:59] when you sell it for them to buy they [7:03] are rarely does and most consultancy [7:05] that your major system integrates they [7:07] don't buy the entire ERP system at one [7:09] freaking time and try to implement all [7:11] at one time that's too big break that [7:12] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] down so what they'll do is you'll [7:15] lead into it what are the biggest most [7:17] painful problems you're suffering from [7:19] right now and let's solve those first so [7:21] what I like to do is I say look every [7:23] company who buy something they're only [7:25] going to buy it on two three four major [7:28] problems most of the time even they have [7:31] a hundred problems it's too complex too [7:34] difficult to ferret through and too [7:36] difficult to get your mind around to try [7:38] to write it so long 100 days right you [7:40] can't buy no it's not gonna work like [7:41] that these are two or three or four [7:43] crumbs that are absolutely killing me [7:44] that I have to fix today and so [7:46] therefore they're the ones I'm gonna [7:48] focus on they're the ones I want to talk [7:50] about and so simply was need to [7:52] understand where those major problems [7:54] that their product or service solve the [7:55] major ones that have the greatest [7:57] negative impact on an organization you [7:59] get extremely familiar with those and [8:00] how often do you think sales people [8:02] really asking questions that reveal [8:04] those problems no I mean it's to think [8:08] about that like you go through an entire [8:10] day how many problems do you think that [8:12] you're thinking about in a given day [8:14] just for you and your business or you in [8:17] whatever scope or capacity how many [8:19] problems are you thinking about in a [8:20] given day hundreds okay so but yeah so [8:25] you've got a hundred the hundreds that [8:26] you're thinking about how many of them [8:28] are you actually taking action on or [8:30] that important that you're actually [8:31] going to take some kind of action on [8:33] with all of us we really stop to think [8:36] about our day for a second it all comes [8:38] out of how you define a problem right [8:39] but our whole day technically speaking [8:41] is I would say unless you're sitting [8:44] down watching TV and not doing anything [8:46] I would suggest about 80% of your day is [8:50] working on problems now the issue is [8:53] most of the time you have the skills and [8:55] capabilities to solve those problems to [8:56] your satisfaction [8:58] immediately like it's a corny example [9:00] but I was working on my yard yesterday [9:01] with my kids right like for some reason [9:03] my yard just is not grass not how I want [9:06] it to be green so I had to solve that [9:07] problem so I went to the store and I [9:09] bought some some patch stuff the patches [9:12] in the garden I then I bought some some [9:14] seed fertilizer mix thing and then I [9:16] brought a couple rates because I had to [9:19] create like ride to course the grass and [9:21] see it could take hold right well as I [9:23] was raking right sometimes it would get [9:25] stuck on something so I had to stop and [9:26] see what that was that's a problem [9:27] that's like it's a smaller wheel think [9:30] about that way but that's romantic stick [9:32] I had a much weeds at all the leaves of [9:35] the problem how do I do that right every [9:37] day if you're connected to life you have [9:39] a bazillion problems the Proms it lv2 [9:42] the ones you want that we want other [9:44] people to help us with or we we spent a [9:46] lot of money on other ones are the [9:47] biggest impacts that we have the least [9:50] capability of solving ourselves those [9:53] are the big ones those are the ones that [9:55] we make buying decisions on and we look [9:57] for other people's health so how can we [9:59] reveal help how can we help customers [10:03] reveal those problems anticipate them so [10:06] again like attach it to what it is you [10:09] do right so let's continue on my cheesy [10:11] little metaphor about my yard right [10:13] those guys are come knocking on my door [10:15] I'm trying to sell yard services they [10:18] should have looked through my yard [10:20] before then walked up and they should [10:22] have been able to say listen and I [10:24] noticed this in your yard [10:26] is that bother you is that somebody who [10:28] tried to solve have you had trouble [10:30] getting rid of those patches let me [10:31] explain you why those patches exist Oh [10:33] better yet do you have a dog yes could [10:36] be urine right the dog journey no I [10:37] don't have a dog [10:38] are you familiar with grubs no I'm not [10:40] familiar with Grubbs Grubbs is a small [10:42] insect that sits underneath the surface [10:44] that eats the roots of the witch a lot [10:46] and you can't you get fixed that was [10:47] fertilizer you're aware but no I wasn't [10:49] aware of that right so now let's say [10:51] nose lawns right you might ask this [10:53] thing listen this neighborhood where I [10:55] used to be in an airport we know that [10:57] many of the soil has a bit more XYZ in [11:00] it and so we know that people here so [11:02] with more iron in it I mean [11:03] shut up now right but so were you aware [11:06] of it no I wasn't worth it so every time [11:07] I ask a question that person may not be [11:10] aware of I'm demonstrating my expertise [11:13] now they've got me I mean I've got them [11:15] because they want to hear more about me [11:16] explain this I'll be explaining that and [11:17] so you get them enough and they agree at [11:19] the yards of problem they don't like the [11:21] spots and they want it to look better [11:23] they're going to listen to you and [11:25] they're most likely gonna buy from you [11:26] so think about that you're listening it [11:28] out there you're hearing this and Keenan [11:29] just went through more a deeper [11:32] discussion round you are working grass [11:34] then I think I've ever paid nella grant [11:35] I live out in Arizona so we have [11:37] artificial turf and we have granite it [11:39] took cover cover though cover the land [11:41] so the grass is always green but you [11:44] know think about it these questions that [11:46] are based on a foundation of your [11:48] knowledge in a specific industry reveal [11:52] a challenge that the customer is [11:54] experiencing whether they knew it or not [11:57] yet if you go out there like the Barker [12:00] that's out there on Bourbon Street [12:01] trying to bring you into the bar all [12:03] you're doing is just continuing to guess [12:06] and hold that someone is there to just [12:08] catch this piece of information it seems [12:11] so simple yet we complicate her first [12:13] totally what ever reason why do we [12:15] complicate it because no no you better [12:17] so let's think about comes up to the [12:18] door he says hey I'm no TruGreen I don't [12:21] like what we make grass look greener we [12:24] know we'd love to talked about how we [12:25] could get your grass to look better we [12:27] have these special tools that do this [12:30] will come and spray once a week and will [12:31] kill weeds and we'll do this yeah guy [12:33] it's only a couple brown spots I don't [12:35] care right so he's throwing stuff at you [12:38] about what they do their features and [12:40] benefits but because you can't connect [12:42] them to anything because you have you [12:44] don't have you actually don't have the [12:46] the understanding expertise about the [12:48] lawn yourself you can't even make an [12:50] educated buying decision [12:52] you really can't you like I look [12:54] screening up the street now suppose I [12:55] hate those brown spots but I'll just go [12:56] to Home Depot I'm filling myself but [12:58] when he asks go grubs and you don't know [12:59] about grubs [13:00] all of a sudden you're like wait maybe I [13:02] can't do that maybe we'll come back like [13:05] all of a sudden the main he's nice to [13:07] make you feel like you don't know you [13:08] got a bigger problem and you realize and [13:10] holy [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you actually get someone to [13:12] engage in a conversation yeah yeah I [13:14] mean like it's amazing what happens when [13:17] people engage in a conversation rather [13:19] than a spraying and praying while you're [13:22] out there trying to just pitch pitch [13:24] pitch pitch pitch pitch pitch pitch [13:25] pitch and all you're doing is [13:27] contributing to the rest of the noise [13:28] that's out there so you know Keenan you [13:30] had nine truths I think that's how you [13:32] describe the truth boss nine truth bombs [13:35] so one of them is nobody gives a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [13:38] about your product or organization and [13:40] paraphrasing here but it's basically [13:42] it's no one cares as much about your [13:45] product or organization as you do stop [13:48] trying to think that your customers are [13:49] gonna think about it in the same way [13:51] they don't and let me seen it but just [13:54] in my mind but a lad who just came out [13:57] right right here's the bottom line [14:00] right I know give me something that [14:03] people want to fix Oh give me something [14:05] they would buy something that they would [14:07] buy they would buy all right somebody [14:09] wants to buy a car okay [14:10] bypass wedding wheezing wedding planning [14:14] a wedding planner right I don't care [14:17] about the wedding planner they don't [14:19] care about everything she can do all [14:21] they care about is the end results am I [14:26] going to have the wedding that I want so [14:28] if you see there mr. mrs. wedding [14:30] planner talking about all the weddings [14:31] you've ever done and how great you are [14:33] and all the relationships you have but [14:35] they don't give a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] because guess [14:36] what if all of a sudden you'll Adam came [14:38] in right what's his name - Jeannie the [14:41] genie huh whatever his name is the G [14:43] what do you think about I don't know [14:45] anything at all about weddings yeah you [14:47] just tell me what you want I'll make it [14:48] Apple to snap my finger they go with the [14:50] genie they go with the G they don't care [14:53] about you they're going with the genie [14:54] because think G they're convinced the [14:56] genie is going to get them what they [14:58] want at the end it's the output is what [15:01] we're buying we don't care about all [15:04] your products and features and services [15:05] only to the extent that they allow us to [15:09] see and have the confidence that we're [15:12] going to get what we're actually buying [15:14] and that is the output because we're not [15:16] interested in taking on risk right do we [15:19] want it in there extra risk yes no no no [15:22] I'm not interested taking on risk and I [15:24] know what I want [15:25] yep I know what I'm buying I'm not [15:26] buying that I'm buying the output you [15:28] buy the output so yeah [15:30] so think about that you and and how I I [15:34] think Seth Godin talks about this in the [15:36] context of you know when someone goes to [15:39] Home Depot they don't go there too [15:40] because they want to buy a 3/4 inch [15:43] drill bit they go there because they [15:45] want to put a hole in their wall and [15:47] they don't really want to just put a [15:49] hole in the wall they want to put a hole [15:51] in the wall so that they can hang a [15:53] shelf and they don't just want to hang a [15:54] shelf they want to hang a shelf so they [15:55] can put a picture up there so that they [15:58] can remember about this memory that they [16:00] have and I think that's what you're [16:01] describing here it's you know this is [16:03] not the that thing that they're [16:06] delivering is not necessarily it's the [16:09] problem or the solution of the problem [16:11] is not necessarily dependent on the [16:13] thing that's being delivered it's the [16:15] ability to address the problem that [16:18] exists in the marketplace or the ability [16:19] that drug addressed the problem that [16:21] exists in somebody's head said yes yes [16:24] said that I'm gonna meet set spoke at a [16:27] couple of things we think a lot of like [16:29] some time so I used to say if said [16:31] didn't say this then whoever did say [16:33] it's very similar to me I used to say [16:35] this all the time I said we don't want [16:37] to drill I don't want a hole right that [16:40] one person wants to start a construction [16:43] company and therefore they need a drill [16:45] to start the construction company [16:46] another person wants to build their [16:49] daughter's dollhouse another person just [16:52] wants to be able to take pictures on the [16:53] wall every once in a while and something [16:55] comes up they want to fix it so the [16:57] reason I use three different examples is [16:59] because this three of the drills right [17:01] this three of the types of drills now [17:02] right so the guy who wants to the [17:04] construction company not a little bit [17:06] you know a eighty and eight volts [17:08] electric drill that runs out every 20 [17:11] minutes the kid go through concrete is [17:13] not going to salt you know do what he [17:15] wants he's trying to build a [17:16] construction company wait B is for Steve [17:17] as an expert right the so that one's [17:20] might work for the person wants to drill [17:21] every once in a while at their house [17:22] right the person who wants to do that [17:24] dog house they may need some that is a [17:26] much finer more sophisticated or [17:29] whatever that is gonna be as rough [17:30] that's gonna destroy the doghouse right [17:32] so really the truth of matter is at the [17:34] end of the day I don't want to do it I [17:35] don't want a hole [17:36] I want a construction company I want to [17:37] build the houses or I just want to make [17:40] sure I can get something done around the [17:41] house yep [17:42] breathe air [17:43] comes in though they drive three [17:46] different solutions right so I like what [17:49] Seth is going but I think even step [17:50] further it goes even wider than that [17:52] yeah so think about this it's the [17:54] questions that you ask that reveal your [17:56] expertise and understanding and [17:58] awareness about what's happening in the [17:59] market and help to create a vision of [18:02] the future that aligns with the [18:05] direction that the customers trying to [18:07] go yes and if for whatever reason when [18:10] you're asking those questions it doesn't [18:13] create this you can't see the alignment [18:15] with this vision of the future relative [18:18] to your product helping to solve the [18:20] problem why are you wasting your [18:22] customers time with questions related to [18:25] Bant and I know you've said in the past [18:28] ban sucks [18:29] and we're aligned on that I mean what [18:32] right do you have to ask me as a [18:34] customer if I've got the budget to [18:35] afford whatever the hell it is that [18:37] you're selling or if I've got the [18:39] authority to make a decision or if I've [18:42] got need or if I've got timing like all [18:44] of these things that go into this [18:46] pre-qualification process are really [18:49] focused on you as an individual or you [18:51] as an organization and not on your [18:53] customer you know what how would you [18:54] build or expand upon that so what do you [18:57] say like what else do you have to add to [19:00] that because I know you've said before [19:02] ban sucks and you've got a couple of [19:03] different things that are out there that [19:04] I think sayings that are really that are [19:07] really awesome and really pointed like [19:09] no discovery no demo right ban sucks [19:12] so let's build on the band sucks peace [19:14] why why do we continue to fall back into [19:16] is more focused on the management what [19:28] have you done for me lately with less of [19:30] a manager looked at you and says hey you [19:32] sure this customer needs this product it [19:34] doesn't happen it rarely happens is all [19:37] he care about is us [19:38] she'll be it's another way for us to say [19:39] we don't you waste any time selling some [19:41] to someone who can't buy you got quarter [19:43] to me shut up right well they missed on [19:46] point [19:46] look my issue with badges is a [19:48] qualifying tool because eventually you [19:50] have to get all the stage bands they [19:52] have to the budget you have to get to [19:53] the authority but you don't disqualify [19:55] off [19:57] right you try to qualify me on bed I [20:00] don't care what service you had you're [20:02] out right I'll think of that as we go [20:04] along I'll have that conversation with [20:06] you down the road right but now you [20:08] don't sit there on the first call is [20:10] that saying so tell me do a budget when [20:11] do you need to get this done shut up I [20:13] don't care about I don't care about you [20:15] this is about me right [20:16] secondly this is ass much easier way to [20:19] qualify somebody upfront and it's simply [20:22] this do they have a problem you can fix [20:24] do they want to solve that problem [20:27] are [20:29] they willing to go with you on a journey [20:32] to solve that problem if those things [20:34] exist [20:35] you're the qualified deal right right [20:38] we're in like and I can get that stuff [20:40] in the first call yep in the keys and I [20:43] get this one the key is are they willing [20:46] to go with me on a journey to fix it [20:47] that one's key cuz you have to own it [20:49] like I agree with with people who say [20:51] it's um you need the custom that come [20:53] along and the customers to participate [20:54] Ashley agree you can't sell to someone [20:56] they don't to be sold to is that willing [20:57] to participate in the sales process [20:58] no I just have an opportunity to help [21:00] you help let you help them and work [21:03] together with you so if you don't that [21:05] last piece of holds well yeah I mean [21:06] once you they say yeah let's go on the [21:08] journey to solve this you can get the [21:09] rest of Bant later you can get all of [21:11] that later so why do we if there's a lot [21:14] of there's a lot of talk out there about [21:15] buyer persona and and I mean I've even [21:18] gotten into discussions around customer [21:19] decision-making process and and a lot of [21:22] people are talking about buyer journey [21:23] there's all this stuff that goes goes in [21:25] there many times these things get [21:26] created by marketing based on some kind [21:29] of fictional being fictional avatar out [21:32] there let's say that's the first couple [21:34] of steps because then you understand the [21:36] context what can we as sales [21:38] professionals do to take that a couple [21:40] of steps further and make it more [21:41] personal I think just ask the buyer [21:44] right I mean I don't I talked in the [21:47] book about this business I started I was [21:49] so excited about it didn't work out [21:51] because I guess I didn't do my homework [21:53] I didn't know what I didn't know I guess [21:55] I don't know if I would have found it [21:56] for a hand [21:57] right but we're HR ended up costing me [22:00] the company because I sold this shadow [22:03] explain think of social take a private [22:04] social networks for ski instructors so [22:06] if you take a lesson the end of the [22:08] lesson that instructor could [22:09] video to your own private page that [22:11] mountain they could give to take notes [22:12] and tell you what you need remember that [22:13] time so he time go skiing again you go [22:15] back to that lesson and read all about [22:18] it and watch the video here with the ski [22:20] instructor senses fool it was dull but [22:22] ski instructors and paid hourly so the [22:24] schools free through the mountains [22:27] freaked out because they were like looks [22:28] just like big mountains they have you [22:30] know Vail 1500 instructors you know the [22:32] amounts of three four five hundred [22:33] instructors what they're all working and [22:35] they all go two or three times a week [22:37] and go home and spend an hour to on [22:39] those videos by law you have to pay them [22:42] but if you don't if you can't control [22:43] that you could wake up one day with a [22:45] lawsuit real millions of dollars in [22:47] damages because you all these you've ran [22:48] around working off the clock but no one [22:50] was willing to take that risk and so I [22:52] think understanding tonight what I did [22:55] to that process that I went through as I [22:57] sold I started becoming very aware of [22:59] how my target market bought because I [23:02] think buyers journeys are less about the [23:04] individual and more about the [23:05] organization right I mean yes cities [23:07] shelter that one person is only one [23:09] buyer there is some type of buyer [23:10] journey but generally speaking by his [23:11] journeys are the result of the [23:12] organization's there is also the [23:14] cultures of the organizations right the [23:16] result of the size of the deal its [23:19] external things that drive it like I [23:21] can't spend two million dollars without [23:22] talking people I keep spent two million [23:24] dollars on an hour live I can't spend [23:26] two million dollars oh you know my boss [23:27] is approval on the board's approval like [23:29] that's a buying process or buying [23:31] journey that is driven by the corporate [23:33] culture and driven by signing authority [23:35] and all that stuff so I just think [23:37] people need to be aware of what they're [23:38] selling impact that has in the [23:40] organization what the cultures the [23:42] organizations are I mean all of that [23:44] stuff and build your own if it Maps with [23:46] marketing great if it doesn't ignore [23:47] Larkin Lake there's no rule that says [23:49] you have to follow markings by his [23:51] journey pay attention listen ask them as [23:55] cousin [23:55] tell me what the process is brew buy-ins [23:57] yeah I think that's a really important [23:59] piece because you can this is another [24:01] area where you can provide guidance to [24:03] your customer yeah you can ask the [24:05] question so and this is a common [24:07] question that I'll ask so historically [24:09] when you've purchased something like [24:11] this what has the process looked like [24:14] inside your organization and [24:16] sometimes they'll come back and say you [24:17] know I've never purchase anything like [24:18] this well there's no [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] we might run [24:21] into some problems there's gonna be some [24:22] blind spots that we're gonna run into [24:24] where we need to start shining some [24:25] light in those areas and try to figure [24:28] out or anticipate where those items go [24:29] it starts to inform that next set of [24:32] questions so one of the other things [24:33] that jumped out at me at the book or in [24:35] the book and I ink I think you talked [24:37] about it directly in this in this [24:38] phrasing but the way that it comes from [24:40] works for me is root cause analysis [24:43] being able to get into those five whys [24:45] behind something not just accepting that [24:48] initial story so can you talk about the [24:50] importance of root cause analysis when [24:52] going through your process and then [24:55] there's my bad question because I'm [24:56] asking two at the same time let's talk [24:58] about root cause analysis but then how [25:00] do you how do you prepare as a sales rep [25:04] or how can sales reps prepare to do that [25:06] better so the roots to size the root [25:09] cause right and that's the idea question [25:11] together right look as a sales person [25:14] just like a doctor you had better [25:17] understand the problems you solve every [25:22] broadcast I want to see some company [25:24] I've clients I can't get them to do this [25:26] I just think it's so so intimacies to [25:30] the culture and identity of salespeople [25:32] it's just so hard to know how to Blake [25:34] execute it but listen rather than train [25:36] all your salespeople in your product [25:38] spend your onboarding train them in the [25:40] problems your product serves sauce right [25:44] spend all the time in the world what are [25:45] the problems how does those problems [25:47] impact the organization right what is [25:49] the root cause of those problems why do [25:51] those problems exist in the first place [25:53] what is going on inside of organizations [25:55] that create those problems that that [25:57] highlight those problems that make those [25:58] problems worse that magnify those [26:00] problems and you become an expert in [26:02] that then as you go to find the problems [26:04] you already know what causes them and so [26:07] you just have to ask the customer say [26:09] something like look are you seeing this [26:10] slow um I'm making this up but are you [26:12] sling was seeing a little conversion [26:14] rate from lead to qualified opportunity [26:17] because many of the leaves are actually [26:18] practitioners and not actually [26:20] executives were buying or are you seeing [26:23] are you seeing a low close rate because [26:25] your sales team has a tendency to just [26:27] spend more time talking about the [26:28] product [26:29] features and don't really understand the [26:31] problems people are trying to solve or [26:32] you see like notice what I'm doing I'm [26:34] saying promising is it because of this [26:36] is it because of that and that is [26:37] through cops every time you say is it [26:41] because this is because that's - because [26:42] well I know the root cause so you should [26:44] know the root causes right right and if [26:46] you know who causes it just like the [26:47] problems you already know you already [26:48] knows you just gotta get the customer to [26:51] admit look all these years of writing [26:55] this book and doing all these podcasts [26:56] just hit me the best people the best [26:59] sales people in the world already know [27:02] 90% of the information that they need to [27:05] get out of the customer they just need [27:07] the customer to validate it and to [27:09] quantify it oh yeah so how awesome is [27:12] that you say that 90% of the sales [27:14] people who are out there good sales [27:15] people or out there know the information [27:17] they need to get out yet in a lot of the [27:20] sales training that goes out there it [27:22] talks about cures the information you [27:25] need to share with your customer here's [27:26] how you need to deliver your demo here's [27:28] how you need to present the information [27:30] here's how you need to tell your story [27:32] what if you say actually start looking [27:34] at it and realize that it's your [27:35] customer story not yours yes yes it's [27:39] not that it's what's called customer [27:41] centric I think I say in the book [27:42] telling right can you cut customs yet [27:45] problem-centered selling right your [27:47] customers first [27:48] which way no one cares about you or your [27:49] product like that's that's the mentality [27:51] so you get into this and you say ask why [27:53] because why elites gear that asking why [27:56] leads - yes you want to talk about that [27:58] a little bit more and like what would [27:59] you like the audience to take away from [28:00] and why it's so important to ask those [28:03] questions ask why why is the personal [28:05] piece so let's give simon Sinek some [28:07] credit right why is the personal piece [28:09] so remember I told you I know the [28:11] problems that somebody's having right so [28:14] as is back to my yard a metaphor it's [28:16] again it's corny but I stood my yard [28:18] yesterday I come up and I'm trying to [28:19] sell you my my services I know what the [28:23] problems are with the lawn [28:24] it could be gruff it could be bad soil [28:26] it could be poor sunlight it could be [28:28] lack of fertilizing you could like I [28:29] know them all and other problems it [28:32] could be that's not thick enough it [28:33] could be to make like the problems are [28:35] it's not a thick enough to be bare spots [28:36] too many weeds I know all the who either [28:38] so I know the problems then they know [28:40] the impacts write notes like do those [28:42] two things [28:42] I'm sorry I knew the problems and I knew [28:44] the root cause right but I know those [28:47] right well I can never know is the [28:50] impact the impact is the personal piece [28:53] I can't know the impact because [28:55] everybody's impact is different so once [28:58] I get the customer client to admit that [29:00] yes I don't like my lawn the problem [29:02] right and I know the root cause then I [29:06] have to understand the impact so the [29:08] impact is why don't you like your lawn [29:10] why don't you like this or like right [29:12] and they're like look I have kids and I [29:14] want them to play on it it could be my [29:16] freaking next-door neighbor's a bit [29:18] alarm that I do right it could be I'm [29:19] not meeting the HOA requirements I'm [29:21] getting fined all the time because in my [29:23] yard looks like [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] it could be my ego [29:25] it could be I have a wedding and I'm [29:26] coming up soon my daughter's Toit is [29:27] going to be in it it could be [29:29] I just want my house I'm selling my home [29:31] there's there I'm selling my home yep [29:33] Yeah right there right I'm selling my [29:36] home and I want it to look better and [29:37] cleaner I want to get maximum value for [29:40] the price of my home so those are the [29:42] four different reasons somebody could [29:44] want their yard to look perfect right [29:46] and so I can't know that coming in like [29:50] those are always personal so those are [29:52] the impacts and once you get to the five [29:54] why's you get the impact because I [29:56] wanted to look good why I want to look [29:58] good because I'm selling it why are you [30:01] selling it because my wife and I want to [30:03] move to Arizona and retire out of [30:05] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] now right [30:06] why do you want to move to Arizona [30:07] retire my grandchildren live down there [30:10] oh so you want to be closer to your [30:12] children I might even ask why to find [30:15] out that if I get the most for it I am [30:17] with downsized every extra dollar we get [30:19] is going to my grandchildren going to [30:20] their to their school education right [30:23] okay that is not going to be very rarely [30:26] as that could be anybody else is why so [30:29] when it comes to selling I know what I'm [30:31] selling to now I'm let's just saw your [30:33] greenhorn baby I am NOT son a green line [30:35] I am selling more money to my children's [30:38] grandchildren college education and I'm [30:40] selling the ability of these two people [30:42] to live next to their their kids so in [30:44] more time with their grandkids and be [30:46] closer to their family that's what I'm [30:48] selling and this is why reusing [30:50] proposals within your across your [30:53] customer base [30:54] and treating them like Madlib exercises [30:57] where you're copying and pasting and [30:58] adding little components just doesn't [31:00] work and if you're doing it you're [31:01] wasting not only are you wasting your [31:03] time but you're wasting your customers [31:05] time and you're not applying thought to [31:07] the way that you sell so it Kenan I love [31:12] that because I don't like doing [31:14] proposals Hey right and sooner or later [31:17] I'm not gonna do it because I'm gonna [31:18] Duff people working here that have to do [31:19] them anymore right so but with that [31:21] being said I get to cut and paste piece [31:24] but this is great I have three section [31:27] three three or four sections in my [31:29] proposals that are custom every time [31:31] right and one of them literally says [31:34] having spoken to you about your lawn and [31:37] and I put in their personal common [31:39] personal impact understanding that your [31:42] lawn is here any you're concerned about [31:43] its ability to get top dollar understand [31:46] that you were looking to move down and [31:48] spend more time with your family and [31:49] save more money for your grandchildren's [31:51] college education I say that I literally [31:55] say that in it this is what I recommend [31:58] right it just be them they like aoki [32:01] like there was no bad saying no I'm [32:03] saying no isn't saying no to my service [32:05] it's saying no I don't feel to go see my [32:06] branches yeah why and you see most of [32:09] these proposals that are out there [32:10] they'll start with us as an organization [32:12] like we do this for other organizations [32:16] here's how we're going to solve your [32:18] problem and what Keenan is describing is [32:20] go back and first and demonstrate you [32:22] actually listen to your customer that [32:24] you understand the problem they're [32:26] trying to solve that you understand the [32:28] impact they're trying to have in the [32:29] organization and don't just stuff it [32:32] with all this stuff that you have been [32:34] you know the that you can well I took I [32:36] joke about the Mad Libs component but [32:38] you see it over and over again and the [32:39] one that drives me nuts is when the same [32:41] typos occur over and over again the same [32:44] in the same one because you know what [32:46] what ends up happening is success breeds [32:47] success so hey I've got a proposal my a [32:49] closed rate is a little bit higher than [32:51] everybody else is now everybody wants to [32:53] use the same thing and what they forget [32:55] is it no longer has the context because [32:57] it's not personal [32:59] yes yeah so you hit on training here and [33:03] you hit on this piece around identifying [33:05] problems and get one of the struggles [33:06] that I see inside [33:08] organizations is the way that the [33:10] company describes more work with b2b [33:12] companies but the the waiter the company [33:14] describes the problem that exists in the [33:18] marketplace changes from whether you're [33:21] talking to somebody on the product side [33:22] or you're talking to somebody on the [33:24] marketing side or you're talking to [33:25] somebody on the sales side or you're [33:26] talking to somebody on the customer [33:28] server side how do you create yeah when [33:31] you see that happen how do you work to [33:33] create alignment in those organizations [33:35] you gotta understand each person set of [33:38] problems are yeah and why the problem [33:40] affects them and who does it affect the [33:43] most what I like to do and this is [33:46] really hard there's probably a good book [33:47] in here somewhere I take a lot of work [33:49] to ferret to tease out all the pieces [33:50] yep [33:51] a lot of times the the other people on [33:55] the edges it starts to get to a point [33:57] where let's say marketing they know that [34:00] the problem is really big for haul down [34:02] an idea product right right and they're [34:05] part of the process but the it really [34:07] doesn't bother marketing that much yeah [34:09] right but if you get really good if you [34:12] can show the downstream effects of that [34:14] problem and how it creates a big problem [34:16] for marketing yep they may not have [34:18] thought about then you get their [34:21] attention so it's like look I'm not [34:22] gonna get you to buy into what other [34:24] guy's name is Brian's problem yeah I [34:26] want you to be concerned about but I [34:28] wanted you to see how Brian's from is [34:30] going to be a problem from you if it's [34:32] not fixed and as we're going through [34:34] this what resonating for me Keenan and [34:37] she talked through it and I know you [34:38] said a there's another book that's out [34:39] there but yep what if you apply gap [34:42] selling inside your own organization [34:45] absolutely like so so I tell I do when [34:50] I'm telling people oh I gotta go talk to [34:52] the board or whatever in Lilly look what [34:53] we sell here whether it's consulting [34:55] services or training it's not I mean it [34:58] can get expensive but we're not talking [34:59] millions of dollars right I mean we're [35:01] gonna get high you know we're gonna get [35:02] a big deal for us is gonna be a mid six [35:05] figures deal all right [35:05] that's a lot of tricks training a lot of [35:07] people ready and that's consulting from [35:09] you know for a big chunk of time for a [35:11] lot of people so but still it's not [35:13] cheap you know it's not thousand bucks [35:16] so they've got to talk to people so what [35:18] I do is I say gap seller I literally [35:20] have that conversation [35:21] gaps um right and take the problem that [35:24] we've got you already know the problem [35:26] you kind of know the problem that tom [35:27] has who have you got glasses to heal the [35:29] board and so take what we've talked [35:32] about in gaps element is that asking [35:34] them questions and getting them to say [35:36] yeah you're right if we don't get this [35:38] done it'll be hard to get the next round [35:39] of funding oh yeah if we can't do this [35:40] you're oh yeah and they say so therefore [35:42] it's okay that's what I want to do and [35:45] so I teach about that to go get self for [35:48] themselves which is awesome because now [35:50] what you're doing is you're enabling [35:51] your customer to be successful your [35:53] prospect to be successful whenever you [35:55] want to define it and you're becoming an [35:58] extension of your team or excuse me [36:01] you're becoming an extension of their [36:02] team but you're also in demonstrating [36:05] the impact that this has and how it [36:07] might impact your the whole of your [36:10] organization I'd like to get back into [36:12] your story around the whole around the [36:15] you built out this technology and you [36:16] built out the social platform and you're [36:19] gonna do all these really cool things [36:20] and you get and granted you get into [36:22] detail inside the book and and if you if [36:24] you're out there you haven't read the [36:25] book or haven't listened to the book [36:26] pick up the book there will be a link in [36:29] the show notes for you to go out there [36:31] and pick up the book and you can either [36:33] listen to it on audio audible or you can [36:35] download it on on Kindle or you can [36:37] purchase the book directly but let's go [36:39] through through the progression that you [36:42] went through and so you built did you [36:44] build out the technology first mmm-hmm [36:47] okay so yeah no not this technology [36:49] because you were gonna build that you [36:50] were gonna deliver a kick-ass product [36:51] out to the market and there are a lot of [36:53] companies that go out there and do this [36:54] stuff so they build out this kick-ass [36:55] product and they do it because they [36:57] understand that there's a problem that [36:59] they fell and they feel really confident [37:02] about the solution so then you go out to [37:04] people like you who have the problem [37:06] right and what do those people say so in [37:09] my case yeah yeah they loved it so I [37:12] mean for context for your audience I'm a [37:14] part-time ski instructor right and I [37:16] really enjoyed it and so one of the [37:18] things I learned is I was making videos [37:19] for my clients and then shipping the [37:21] videos an email and and saying hey here [37:23] you go and I also noticed that once uh [37:25] this is for private by the way this is [37:28] for private lessons [37:29] sure mom and once the lesson was over [37:31] that was it and I also learned that [37:33] people couldn't [37:33] pick their own instructor who didn't [37:35] know who their instructor was so they [37:37] wouldn't know me or seen you know [37:39] anything about me till I showed up that [37:40] morning Collins I wanna I want to ski [37:43] instructor and and some fancy stuff [37:45] behind the scenes would put you with me [37:46] and then I'd show up and I'd stand I'd [37:48] literally stand in this what we call the [37:51] bell and they just walk up and I'm [37:53] supervising oh you with Kenan today and [37:54] they leave me but I did for the first [37:56] time now this is archaic right see so I [37:58] wanted to create like a like a social [38:00] environment where you could go to vales [38:01] page you could look at all the ski [38:03] instructors you can see all their their [38:05] history their experience right their [38:07] schedule and all that and then click on [38:09] in schedule appointment or if they [38:11] weren't available it's a not available [38:13] and that you could find some house make [38:14] automated and then on the back end I [38:16] created a way that allowed once the [38:19] lesson was over you would have your own [38:21] lesson page and I would go when there is [38:23] the instructor and say okay this is what [38:25] we worked on today we worked on your [38:26] edging and tipping remember that you did [38:28] this well and you want to work on this [38:30] and I might throw up a video that shows [38:32] hey look no sir you go through here I [38:33] could throw some pictures of the day and [38:35] then we had multiple lessons I could put [38:37] different lessons if you came back next [38:39] year you could go back to where you wait [38:41] to and then we could add a new lesson [38:42] for the new year like was your own [38:44] little portfolio a profile right they [38:47] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] loved it sure because there's a [38:49] story right they that's the story that [38:52] they're engaged in they're seeing it [38:53] like on both sides you get the customer [38:56] who loves it you get the person who's [38:58] delivering the service who loves said so [39:00] what happened next [39:02] it was off the ski schools loved it they [39:04] screws all of it they started eating it [39:05] up including my home mountain Vale which [39:07] at the time had six mountains and [39:09] because I love skiing - and I am hated [39:11] corporate America oh not only am I gotta [39:14] be able to do what I love I'm gonna go [39:15] around the world ski all over the place [39:17] and this is like a lifestyle business I [39:19] knew it was never gonna make me hundreds [39:21] of millions of dollars but I did back of [39:23] the napkin math and there was nobody out [39:25] there doing this so I was like I can [39:26] make two three million dollars a year [39:28] with really low overhead live a great [39:31] life [39:32] skiing all over the place we completely [39:33] plug this that was hot for this bail [39:36] loved it Winter Park was ready to go [39:38] like they were ready to go wait wait [39:41] mountain or whatever it's called wait [39:42] mountain in New York or something I [39:43] forget it's gonna I think it's way [39:44] doesn't matter so I had a bunch of go [39:46] and then as it were dressed I said look [39:49] you might want to talk to IT first cuz [39:50] we were going the way this is gonna do [39:52] is to be like a redirect yep right so [39:54] you would go to Vail comm and you click [39:56] on this and it would take you to our [39:58] site would be branded in skin like you [40:00] never left so unless you're really smart [40:02] yeah it looks looks like it's yours yes [40:04] this is really a smart techie you can [40:06] look up an address and no it's redirect [40:07] no no one's left you say that you're [40:09] still there it's like so the IT had to [40:12] be convinced and I said no problem with [40:14] this I mean as long as you understand [40:16] and doesn't affect us there's no they're [40:17] not touching our machines we're good [40:20] no next one then was legal got involved [40:23] to help work with the contract and stuff [40:26] like that and then HR got the balls okay [40:28] that's where it died on the vine because [40:31] HR was like whoa and they went to the [40:35] heads of the ski schools I said what [40:37] happens when your team goes home and [40:39] spends two hours on that how are you [40:41] gonna pay up yeah there's a goal what do [40:43] you mean and they're like if they work [40:45] on this Facebook fsla their standards [40:48] and Labor's Act you have to pay that yep [40:52] all of a sudden people like well [40:54] wouldn't if we tell them not to what if [40:55] they do it you rolled it out so if you [40:58] do if they do it we have to pay him [40:59] whether we told them to or not like you [41:01] cribs so much risk exposure I went from [41:04] like fighting like four or five miles to [41:06] close the shoes can't do it can't do it [41:09] can't do it is this crumbled like that [41:12] that sounds like me going down a black [41:14] diamond I like just so the reason I [41:27] wanted Keaton to share that story and he [41:29] shares it in the book but the reason why [41:31] I'm to share of the story with us here [41:33] is because I know we've got founders out [41:35] there who are right now maybe a lot of [41:38] the sales that they've generated is but [41:40] I've been through friends and family or [41:42] people directly through their network [41:44] and you know keep in mind a lot of these [41:46] people who say yes to this great idea - [41:48] yeah that's gonna change the world [41:50] it's gonna solve all these problems if [41:52] their friends and family they still have [41:54] to deal with you they may not be [41:56] thinking downstream all these individual [41:59] leads [41:59] these individual details that could [42:01] ultimately sink or destroy the business [42:04] and that's what Keenan ran into the gap [42:06] that he had was huge which is hey we're [42:09] gonna solve a lot of problems or we [42:11] understand the problem we've got a [42:12] solution we're gonna be able to fix all [42:14] of that but the risk that was uncovered [42:17] downstream became creating a situation [42:19] where it made no sense for an [42:22] organization to move forward because [42:24] they'd either have to move to making all [42:27] their ski instructors salary employed so [42:30] that which changes the business model [42:32] completely certainly how what you've got [42:34] to do is get everybody else through the [42:36] supply chain bought into the idea of [42:38] here's how the business model changes [42:40] and I don't know very many immigrant I [42:43] don't know many ski instructors I know [42:44] that I know one ski instructor I know [42:46] where I'm gonna go when I've got it what [42:47] I go after bail but the you know how [42:49] many ski instructors really want to be [42:51] committed to somebody is a salary [42:54] employee and are showing up whatever you [42:57] tell them to show up I look why are they [42:59] asked instruct yeah no they show up when [43:02] you took because you're still out at [43:03] least it's like we're gonna cause they [43:04] tell you to show you gotta show up but [43:06] the salary piece is member schools [43:09] I'm sorry ski mountains of seasonal yep [43:11] not open right yep right so it so then [43:14] it makes no sense to put them all on [43:16] salary because you have to fire them [43:18] every year it's fine I'm sorry employee [43:19] you're gonna keep them on set it's a [43:21] cluster it's much easier to face people [43:23] out that are hourly every six or seven [43:26] months than it is to make them all [43:28] salary I'm sorry them sorry because you [43:30] get benefits and stuff you got to pay [43:31] that you don't have to pay as I really [43:33] it just it's much cleaner yeah so now [43:36] I'm thinking through like the B to C [43:37] version of this as much my best might be [43:40] a pain in the ass to two manners there's [43:42] a B to C piece for the individual ski [43:44] instructor might see value and yes but [43:47] does not fly in my world you know how [43:50] much money it would take to get all [43:51] these ski instructors on and no ski [43:54] instructors are transitional they do it [43:55] six seven eight nine years they've done [43:57] it on to something out right and and [43:59] there aren't that many of them to make [44:00] it a business like the wind was in [44:02] consolidating each these might be by yes [44:06] yes each mountain because there's whose [44:08] benefit to the whole mountain cuz here's [44:09] the other piece if people understand the [44:11] amount of skis [44:13] fools are the number-one profit [44:15] generator it resorts no kidding the ski [44:18] squad at the borrowers and the alcohol [44:23] do this without okay let me put this way [44:27] it is not uncommon for the average I do [44:32] this broadly I do this probably could be [44:33] careful here it's not uncommon for the [44:35] average private lesson at a mountain to [44:38] cost anywhere between four and five [44:40] hundred dollars a day up to eleven [44:43] hundred dollars a day that's where the [44:44] Aspen's and vales and it's another park [44:49] astringent the world now Breckenridge [44:50] was level down right like a real hottie [44:53] toy do the real hoity-toity okay like [44:55] Park City now we're talking like tell [44:57] your I I don't know tell you right those [45:01] at 900 to 1200 dollars a day for a [45:04] lesson okay yep I promise you right now [45:07] there's got a ski instructor on the [45:09] planet on the planet that makes more [45:12] than I'm going on a limb seventy bucks [45:15] an hour 60 bucks an hour [45:16] Wow do the math Yeah right there's a [45:19] little act in there there's a lot more [45:20] it's fast these big so the mountains are [45:23] gonna do everything they can probably so [45:25] I mean it's all worth it just finally so [45:28] that's what the wind was at the time is [45:30] the mountains benefited from maximizing [45:33] the value of the less yep right the more [45:36] I can value that private lesson the more [45:39] I can charge for it the more people that [45:40] would take it so I mean that's that was [45:43] my logic behind it [45:44] yes don't be to see is you know I'm now [45:47] I'm down the guys make it 20 30 bucks an [45:48] hour a fool's errand they don't have the [45:50] margin to be able to to be able to cover [45:52] the cost and and and the amount that you [45:55] have to invest to be able to support it [45:57] and the scale yeah so you know so [46:01] whether you're talking about lawns or [46:02] are you talking about ski instructors or [46:04] you're talking about selling [46:05] multi-million dollar enterprise [46:07] solutions into organizations the [46:10] foundation the fundamental components of [46:13] this are all the same hmm ask questions [46:16] yes gauge with others gather information [46:19] deliver information in context of what [46:21] you know is important to the customer [46:23] based on the feedback that you've been [46:25] able to get [46:26] Oh Keenan is we kind of actually almost [46:29] one story to share with you so my skiing [46:31] career ended when I skied a little bit [46:35] when we'd go up to like Flagstaff [46:36] Arizona state but where I started skiing [46:40] was at Vernon Valley great gorge so this [46:42] is New Jersey right so Jersey skiing is [46:45] like ice skating down a hill and what [46:50] was insane is we had what we get every [46:52] once a while you get a snowstorm and you [46:53] get like two inches of fresh snow what [46:56] we would call powder on the slopes or [46:58] like we were skiing in powder that was [47:02] that was Pat was powder to it East Coast [47:04] kid and then moved out to the west coast [47:05] and skied an actual skiing actual snow [47:08] but it's been so long that I've skied I [47:11] I have never skied on parabolic skis [47:14] like my skis are the you know we're like [47:16] the old k2 bindings you just used the [47:20] word parabolic which is about a 15-year [47:23] old term that doesn't even come up [47:24] anymore tells me all I need to know [47:26] that's awesome [47:30] 20 years parabolic goes back 20 years [47:33] yeah that's that's either about no ly a [47:37] single ski is about that fat and jump it [47:41] off ski chokes now that's you think so [47:44] that's all the ski industry has changed [47:46] they're much much better about what City [47:48] anyway from ninety millimeters to 120 [47:51] millimeters underfoot so what's my phone [47:54] so it's gonna be it's hard to tell but [47:56] yeah it's about this wide apart right [47:58] and my skis were known no wider than [48:02] about this thing so probably two of [48:04] those probably two of those yeah two of [48:06] those side-by-side now hmm but this one [48:08] was stable they have something called a [48:09] rocker in the front so there's a little [48:11] bit of a rise so that rather going into [48:14] the snow and going down it gives you a [48:15] lift and keeps them the chips above the [48:17] snow for powder ski make it easier also [48:19] when they're that fat it allows some [48:21] more stability in the crud and less [48:23] chatter and they're easier to chip so it [48:25] changes they're easy to ski the bottom [48:27] line looks like I got a pic scheme back [48:29] up again so he knows we wrap up anything [48:33] else you want to share with the the [48:35] audience out there and just as a [48:36] reminder we [48:37] technical founders or working on [48:40] building kind of trying to figure out [48:41] how to do the how to solve the whole [48:43] sales equation we've got learning [48:46] professionals who are in the EdTech [48:47] education technology space and then [48:50] we've got these non sales professionals [48:52] that are out there who are thinking [48:53] about dipping their toe into sales but [48:55] they're just kind of wondering is that [48:57] the direction I really want to go in so [48:59] anything you'd like to leave the [49:00] audience with to simplify it just look [49:05] at yourself as someone is out to solve [49:07] problems and that your whole objective [49:09] is to make their life better but [49:12] understanding what's making it untenable [49:15] today that's it that is an awesome way [49:17] to end where can people find out more [49:19] about you what you're working on where [49:21] can they get the book where would you [49:23] like to send folks I think you go to [49:24] sales guide.com it's a good start I mean [49:26] that has most of our stuff and then if [49:28] if you don't see what you want there or [49:30] you want more information if you just [49:31] put Keenan in Google well you put Jim [49:34] Keenan in Google [49:35] he needs a little hard to own some [49:36] famous people that I still own half the [49:37] page I think you'll find everything in [49:39] the world about me so what point do you [49:41] go to just one name I mean like you're [49:43] like Beyonce bono like at what point [49:46] wouldn't you just want you go the [49:48] candidate went officially three years [49:51] ago two and a half years ago because [49:53] like you know my social most of my [49:55] social was Kenan but there you know it's [49:57] a popular name if I couldn't get that I [49:58] get frustrated and then because of that [50:01] because my social was keen and more and [50:02] more people were calling me Kenan but [50:04] some was still calling me Jim and like [50:06] oh I see here so I said I need to need [50:10] to make this the full brand and you know [50:13] make this is the full brand and so [50:15] that's what I did three years ago that's [50:17] the mistake I made back in 2017 I [50:19] probably said hey Jim I'd love to have [50:21] you on the podcast persistence is key [50:31] like I get tons of these requests as you [50:33] shed or and so persistent yeah [50:35] everybody's listening if you think about [50:37] a podcast you want to get guests on let [50:39] me help you out okay do not show up out [50:42] of [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] nowhere and say will you be [50:46] on my podcast because your that's a [50:48] whole tape mentality like there are [50:50] people who have [50:51] comment on my stuff share my stuff ask [50:54] me questions post pictures of my book [50:56] and all this stuff and then I know [50:58] exactly who they are [50:59] I've never met her but it exactly I'm [51:01] like hey kita I'm doing a podcast I'd be [51:02] honored if you'd be on watch to share my [51:05] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] forever [51:06] they have jackasses to show up I know [51:08] who they are they go I've been following [51:10] you for years really because I've never [51:11] seen a comment I think I read your book [51:13] really cuz I didn't see write a review [51:15] right I didn't see most picture I [51:16] listened can you do this for me [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you [51:19] why should I do a damn thing for you [51:21] damn think man I got a list this song [51:23] people were asking bottom of the list [51:25] and it works the same way if you're on [51:28] the other side so let's say you just [51:29] publish a book and you're like hey I'd [51:31] love to be on your podcast because your [51:33] audience could do X Y is but it's all [51:36] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] like oh yeah you know what no [51:38] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [51:38] you'd love to be on a podcast and [51:40] promote your and promote your book yes [51:42] tell me demonstrate that you actually [51:45] understand who might be listening to the [51:48] podcast and what kind of value you're [51:50] gonna deliver this and it's the same [51:51] kind of crap that we get and I'm sure [51:52] you get this in the business that you're [51:54] in [51:54] you get these from left field emails and [51:58] LinkedIn or connection requests which [52:00] are like we'd like to talk to you on how [52:03] we can help you build your sales [52:05] business yeah tell me Jen or all this [52:08] other [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you're like did you take a [52:11] look and see what yes [52:12] website and coz if you did I need to [52:14] know what you read that made you think [52:16] that that's something that is completely [52:18] different than what I'm doing right now [52:20] because all you're doing is just [52:22] pitching pitching pitching [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up [52:26] against the wall to see what sticks you [52:28] all you are is just another one of those [52:29] friggin jackasses that are out there but [52:36] this I have such a giving mindset when [52:39] it comes to asking that I literally may [52:42] run for office soon just to pass one law [52:44] ready you know I want to create a law [52:46] that basically says if you are not an [52:50] organ donor and you end up on the organ [52:53] donor list you go to the bottom of [52:56] everybody who's been an organ donor so [52:58] besides the criticality of you need you [53:00] know like the top of list number 2 3 4 [53:03] based on how life-threatening [53:04] is yeah the other thing they need to [53:06] check is has this person been an organ [53:08] donor before they got set the answer is [53:10] no you're on it but every organ donor [53:12] ahead of you goes first because if you [53:14] weren't willing to get a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] organ [53:16] your entire life now you've got the [53:17] balls to be on this give me an organ [53:19] list you are smoking crack because [53:22] people have died because people wouldn't [53:24] put themselves on that list yeah that's [53:27] how it should be done good we have such [53:28] a selfish society it drives me insane [53:30] all we care about is ourselves and it's [53:33] not going to get you the way you want to [53:35] get and then we're blown away wipe [53:37] everybody cheek people like [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] we have [53:38] the problem cuz you treat people like [53:40] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] gimme gimme gimme [53:41] I'm not giving nothing yeah oh hey I [53:43] live in a friggin neighborhood where [53:45] there's a school elementary school you [53:47] will not believe the number of people [53:50] who will cut you off trying to get in [53:51] the parking lot Hey look are you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [53:53] kidding me we all live in the same [53:55] neighborhood our kids might even be in [53:57] the same class this is what this is how [54:00] we're gonna others because oh I have got [54:03] something really important to I'm to go [54:06] to because I'm running late it's just [54:09] over and over and over again [54:12] well Keenan this has been awesome well [54:15] uh maybe we'll figure out another way to [54:17] get back on the podcast I am you've got [54:19] an open invitation to come back out here [54:21] because I think that everybody who has [54:24] chance to listen to this is gonna take [54:25] something away from it and we'd like to [54:28] hear that [54:29] so Keenan thanks for joining the podcast [54:31] we'll include all the links in the show [54:32] notes thank you for listening the [54:34] catalyst Cell podcast if you've not done [54:36] so please provide a rating ratings and [54:38] reviews help people discover the podcast [54:40] if you know someone who'd benefit from [54:41] hearing the discussion please share it [54:43] with them and let us know via LinkedIn [54:44] or Twitter [54:45] like to hear how you're applying the [54:46] lessons learned and concepts discussed [54:48] in your role today sales is a thinking [54:50] process how are you thinking differently [54:52] about yours [54:52] [Music] [55:01] you

===FILE=== VNyZ-UPG1NI - Live Sales Pitch Gap Sell Keenan 69 - Ditch Your Sales Mindset.txt
https://youtu.be/VNyZ-UPG1NI
Live Sales Pitch: Gap Sell Keenan #69 - Ditch Your Sales Mindset
[0:00] look I was going to go easy on you not
[0:02] to hurt your feelings you [ __ ]
[0:04] irritate the [ __ ] out of me I'm only
[0:08] going to get this one chance it's just a
[0:11] feeling I've got like something's about
[0:13] to happen but I don't know what all I
[0:16] here go get the money so I go get it ha
[0:19] means I do something right so I'm what
[0:22] up
[0:23] peeps what's going on peeps welcome to
[0:25] Gap selling 69 oh I lied Gap sell Keenan
[0:30] 69 I [ __ ] that all up anywayss welcome
[0:32] to Gap cell
[0:33] 69 uh what is gap cell Keenan for those
[0:36] of you who don't know Gap SEL Keenan is
[0:39] a live sales call with a live
[0:43] salesperson and if they can find a
[0:45] problem I or a sales Growth Company has
[0:49] we'll buy if they can't then they're
[0:52] going to get coached by me so that when
[0:54] they talk to someone else at another
[0:56] time they get it better and they get it
[0:59] right okay okay so what's interesting
[1:01] about today's show is this is the first
[1:04] person who we've let come back after
[1:08] they've already been on the show so this
[1:10] is going to be an interesting one we're
[1:13] going to see have they made improvements
[1:14] we're going to see what have they
[1:15] learned so this will be really really
[1:18] interesting right and I'm kind of
[1:20] curious about what they sell so this
[1:23] should be a good show should be a good
[1:26] show so with that let me introduce the
[1:29] man Mark Roberts Mark welcome to the
[1:33] show hey Kenan thanks for having me
[1:36] again um it's a pleasure almost three
[1:39] years to the date from the last time I
[1:40] came on still have the original book
[1:43] that I bought before so I'm excited my
[1:46] friend I think what trips me out is that
[1:49] because if you would ask me I wouldn't
[1:50] think Gap Gap SEL Keenan has been around
[1:55] for three years like I I'm curious I
[1:59] just just I have to take your word on
[2:01] you have to be like what do you know
[2:02] what number you were like number three
[2:03] or one or two do you know how were very
[2:06] very close um so I started my sales
[2:09] career in May of 2020 and it was in
[2:11] October of 2020 when I came on to gaps
[2:16] damn Brady do you know it's been we've
[2:18] been doing this for three years because
[2:19] I had no idea if you had asked me I
[2:21] would have said 18 months two years Max
[2:23] Max Max is what I would have say so all
[2:25] right my man well welcome take a second
[2:27] to uh help everybody understand what it
[2:29] is you sell what's the name of your
[2:30] company so your company can get some
[2:32] love uh and then let's have at it of
[2:34] course so I work for an AI firm called
[2:37] calloo the gist of it is if anybody
[2:39] sells online if they do any bookings
[2:42] online if they do any lead generation
[2:44] online a real AI our real-time AI nudges
[2:48] can help boost the online conversions as
[2:50] long as there is enough data for our AI
[2:53] to learn and
[2:55] grow
[2:56] okay my friend the floor is yours you
[2:59] get your 15 minutes excellent well I was
[3:04] actually watching a couple episodes of
[3:06] go Keenan and you mentioned that you had
[3:09] some numbers that were made up so I'm
[3:11] just want to go through them because you
[3:13] were saying you didn't want to give out
[3:14] your Revenue goals and all that such so
[3:18] if it's okay with you I'd like to play
[3:20] with some of those numbers um one of the
[3:22] numbers that I I'm curious to know about
[3:24] you said about
[3:25] 85% of your growth is looking to be
[3:28] coming from corporate sales training and
[3:30] 15% is going to be coming from your
[3:33] online courses for individuals am I
[3:35] correct about that yeah that's a good
[3:37] Ball Park i' look I'd love nothing more
[3:39] for the online to be 50% I would love
[3:43] nothing more than that so yeah I mean
[3:46] but right now i' would say it's probably
[3:48] yeah about
[3:49] 15% so what's holding it back from
[3:51] growing currently that's a self-
[3:53] diagnosing question come on man okay
[3:57] first [ __ ] everybody pay attention
[4:00] everybody pay attention I am so sick and
[4:03] tired of telling you guys this
[4:06] especially the first question it is so
[4:09] annoying as an owner you come in I'm
[4:11] ready to learn from you and you can help
[4:12] me diagnose and the first thing you ask
[4:14] me is why is my thing not growing that's
[4:17] your expertise you should be asking me
[4:20] questions like walk me through this or
[4:22] could you explain this so that I hear
[4:25] myself say it and then I'm like oh okay
[4:28] that's probably why I'm not growing I
[4:30] don't have a [ __ ] clue is your answer
[4:31] I don't know okay all right I'm gonna
[4:34] sort of change gears here then so I I
[4:37] noticed that you hold quite a few
[4:40] webinars with your sales trainers and
[4:42] your sales team and during those
[4:44] webinars they offer a certain percentage
[4:47] off for the online
[4:49] courses is that the one of the main
[4:51] reasons why your sales trainers do those
[4:54] webinars is to increase the online
[4:56] courses for individuals wanting to learn
[4:59] got s hey that's a good question very
[5:03] good question very very good question my
[5:06] friend so you're going to be
[5:08] rewarded those gapar everybody pay
[5:11] attention here because it's going to
[5:12] matter to you those gapar right now were
[5:15] were're offering for free so our whole
[5:17] team is doing one of these like every
[5:18] week and it's been one a week for a
[5:20] while we're going gonna move to one
[5:22] every two weeks I'm been doing ask
[5:24] keenans about once every two weeks we're
[5:26] creating mad amounts of content right
[5:29] across a whole bunch of different um uh
[5:33] topics and right now it's all free it's
[5:36] live it's live on uh Zoom right you sign
[5:40] up to Eventbrite but what's going to
[5:43] happen is in the next 30 days or
[5:47] less we're putting the brakes on that
[5:50] we're going to keep creating that
[5:51] content but you have to have a
[5:54] subscription to Gap plus and in that
[5:57] subscription you will get access to Gap
[5:59] selling online training and the access
[6:02] to all the new content so you'll have
[6:05] free access to every live event and
[6:07] you'll have access to all those
[6:09] recordings after the fact or any
[6:11] recordings that you didn't go to in the
[6:12] beginning so the point is we're actually
[6:15] adding this to the online training area
[6:18] and it's going to be a whole
[6:19] subscription based offering and you
[6:21] can't attend the live event unless
[6:23] you're subscriber or you pay a
[6:25] fee interesting okay that throws a
[6:28] little snag into the way I was going to
[6:29] go about this but let me uh keep going
[6:32] so out of the current ones that you're
[6:34] holding right now how many hours would
[6:37] you say that your sales trainers
[6:39] yourself or even
[6:41] Brady use to get everything going how
[6:44] much time do they spend to create the
[6:46] webinars to hold the
[6:51] webinars I'm sure it's different per
[6:53] each person because there's different
[6:56] levels of of intensity for me with ask
[6:58] Keenan I just show sorry ass up we have
[7:00] to set up the event bright we have to um
[7:04] Market it so I have Sean in our
[7:07] marketing team he does all of the memes
[7:09] and promotion and all that type of stuff
[7:12] um so I'm gonna I'm gonna guess from a
[7:14] marketing side they probably put in an
[7:17] hour to two hours for each one and then
[7:19] each trainer um um depending who they
[7:22] are but anywhere in from an hour two
[7:24] hours to three or four hours building
[7:26] the slide deck and building the the the
[7:29] the
[7:29] flow and all that so I think it just
[7:31] depends but I I'll say four hours for
[7:35] each one okay now how many are your
[7:38] trainers expected to do per month is it
[7:40] one per month is it like on a rotation
[7:42] basis we do them right now it's one a
[7:44] week but we're going to move to one
[7:45] every two weeks which means it's a
[7:48] rotation
[7:49] so one two three four five I think it's
[7:52] rotating to five people so someone's
[7:54] only going to have to do one every 10
[7:56] weeks it was every five weeks but now
[7:58] it's going to be every 10 weeks roughly
[8:00] okay so currently in the past when you
[8:04] would offer these discounts toy Rachel
[8:07] oh Rachel says she thinks 10 to 12 hours
[8:10] for all the things the things
[8:13] so you know so could be she says 10 to
[8:16] 12 I think that's low but that's not 10
[8:18] to 12 in one person's man hours that
[8:20] could be spread over four people you
[8:21] know what I'm saying so we'll say we'll
[8:24] say 10 man hours to split the difference
[8:25] 10 man hours gotcha all right and from
[8:29] those webinars in the past historically
[8:33] how many people would sign up with those
[8:35] discount codes that they would get okay
[8:37] so you're not paying entirely attention
[8:40] but there are no discount codes right
[8:42] now you just sign up for free on a
[8:44] ventri oh sorry sorry what I mean is um
[8:48] the discount codes for the online
[8:50] courses 4.99 only offered it once I
[8:53] could be wrong but I think we've only
[8:55] offered a discount code to get the
[8:57] online training once and that was for
[8:59] Brady's medic Gap thing and I think only
[9:03] two people signed up okay now with the
[9:06] other webinars do you have any way to
[9:08] know how many people sign up because of
[9:11] those webinars if they did not have the
[9:13] discount
[9:14] codes no but we don't promote the online
[9:17] training through those other webinars
[9:19] okay
[9:20] interesting all right Gap to that Gap in
[9:24] ours all right now going back it's 10
[9:28] it's now 10 signups okay excellent now
[9:32] with your team having to spend anywhere
[9:35] between 4 to 12 hours on the online
[9:38] material that they're
[9:40] training is it safe to say that they
[9:43] would be able to better use their time
[9:46] to focus on the corporate training to
[9:49] get more sales because of the higher
[9:52] Revenue that it produces what's that qu
[9:55] ask that question again so right now
[9:57] with the amount of time that you're team
[9:59] or is spending on creating these
[10:01] webinars is it safe to say that if they
[10:04] were able to reduce some of that time
[10:06] that they're spending on it they could
[10:09] then use that time to go after the
[10:13] corporate training sector that you have
[10:15] currently at 85%
[10:18] growth I'm gonna say no I'm gonna say no
[10:22] because we are we firmly believe that
[10:24] content is a massive generator of
[10:27] attention and massive generator of
[10:30] awareness and so when they go out and
[10:32] they do one of these and all these
[10:33] people show up they're like oh this is
[10:35] interesting and it helps actually drive
[10:37] their corporate training go to market
[10:39] strategy so I'm gonna say no I think
[10:42] they're embedded I think they're
[10:43] embedded gotcha so I guess my next
[10:47] question will be for you
[10:49] then besides somebody letting you know
[10:53] that they signed up for the online
[10:55] training seminar the online Gap selling
[10:57] courses for $4.99
[11:00] that they learned about it from the
[11:01] webinars do you have any way to know in
[11:04] real time that they are signing up for
[11:09] the AL 499 course because of the
[11:11] webinars no because remember I just told
[11:13] you this everybody pay attention
[11:15] everybody pay attention poor Mark was
[11:17] doing a decent job but he [ __ ] up I
[11:19] already told you that with the exception
[11:22] of one gapar we've never even talked
[11:25] about the online we don't create codes
[11:28] right now we're not promoting the online
[11:31] training in the gapar we did it once
[11:33] that was it okay I told you that you
[11:35] gotta
[11:36] listen gotcha okay so currently right
[11:41] now what tools do you have to know if
[11:45] somebody is actually interested in
[11:47] signing up for the online courses if
[11:50] they are coming to your website if
[11:53] they're trying to determine who to
[11:55] actually go for if it's between yourself
[11:57] watch this watch this so you you're
[11:59] actually not doing a bad job I'm
[12:00] watching you process I see what you're
[12:02] trying to do okay everybody pay
[12:04] attention this is everybody pay
[12:06] attention pay
[12:07] attention what you're trying to do
[12:09] though is you're trying to sell me you
[12:11] asking questions to find ways to sell me
[12:15] you are not asking questions in a way
[12:19] to understand my
[12:21] business and that is a big difference so
[12:24] look it's a natural step people who are
[12:26] learning Gap selling particular those
[12:27] who've never gone through the train
[12:29] this is what they do they go from the
[12:30] [ __ ] they were doing before to at
[12:33] least some semblance of asking decent
[12:35] questions to understand the business
[12:36] problem but you're doing it in the
[12:37] mindset of I gotta sell him something so
[12:40] I'm gonna ask questions that he'll say
[12:42] yes to like ah I can sell you okay what
[12:45] I want you to do is take a step back and
[12:46] I want you to ask questions to
[12:48] understand my business in totality now
[12:51] this is where you may have messed up let
[12:52] me ask a question because the guy last
[12:54] week was smart had did you go out and
[12:57] did you try to to um purchase the online
[13:01] training I already have
[13:04] okay what's that process like like in
[13:08] other words y go go so when I did it it
[13:11] was um after I bought the books I wanted
[13:14] to take some online training sales
[13:16] myself yeah so I was looking around I
[13:18] knew Gap selling and then I decided to
[13:21] go with you okay so when you went to me
[13:23] what is unique I don't know unique but
[13:25] how does our process work when someone
[13:27] comes to buy the online train what can
[13:29] they
[13:30] do um so they are if I can remember
[13:33] correctly this right there stop right
[13:35] there right there right there so I like
[13:36] if you remember correctly but this is
[13:37] where I wanted to go you didn't go out
[13:38] before you did this call you didn't go
[13:41] out to the site and you didn't try to
[13:44] check the process or even buy something
[13:46] because if you had bought and you said
[13:47] Keen I bought this just to test this out
[13:49] would you refund my money what do you
[13:50] think I would say um you would probably
[13:53] say yes to be honest yeah you had
[13:55] nothing to lose right you had nothing to
[13:57] lose right because because I know you
[13:59] haven't redone your your subscription so
[14:01] you don't have access right now so you
[14:03] didn't go to Gap selling online training
[14:06] and you did not go through the process
[14:07] of signing up did you not recently no no
[14:12] the answer is no not recently no so
[14:13] therefore you missed out on something
[14:15] very important for what you do so I'm
[14:17] going to tell you what the process is
[14:19] you can sign up right away or you get
[14:21] the first 30 minutes for
[14:24] free okay yeah yeah look at this [ __ ]
[14:27] everybody oh okay so knowing you get the
[14:31] first 30 minutes for free I just threw
[14:33] you the greatest [ __ ] bone on the
[14:36] planet what are you GNA do with that now
[14:38] start your
[14:39] questions so when you offer 30 minutes
[14:42] for free to people how many times to
[14:45] people come back and say they want their
[14:46] money
[14:48] back
[14:50] not okay what do you mean they want
[14:52] their money back no you just oh sorry
[14:54] sorry how many people sign up for the
[14:57] course after they do the first 30
[15:01] minutes now you're getting somewhere
[15:03] Mark now you're getting somewhere I
[15:06] believe our conversion is atrocious and
[15:08] we can't figure it out I think it's less
[15:10] than
[15:11] 10%
[15:14] okay let's see here so if it's less than
[15:21] 10%
[15:22] what this is going to be another self-
[15:24] diagnosing question so I'm not going to
[15:26] go there so if it's less than 10%
[15:29] Mark Mark this is what I was talking
[15:31] about before right you your whole
[15:33] mindset is how do I get this guy to buy
[15:35] something okay let go of that okay let
[15:39] go that completely and ask of how do I
[15:42] understand what's happening so I just
[15:44] told you that we only have a 10%
[15:47] conversion so what don't you know right
[15:49] now stop [ __ ] what's happened to the
[15:51] other 90% then ask that question so do
[15:54] you know why the other 90 90% are
[15:57] dropping off no see that see now you're
[16:00] trying to understand no we don't know we
[16:02] don't know
[16:04] why so I guess if you don't know why you
[16:07] don't know exactly where in the sales
[16:09] cycle that they're falling off as well
[16:11] then okay
[16:13] so wait wait wait my thing is pausing
[16:17] I'm not having internet problems
[16:21] shoot [ __ ] hold on a second let me sorry
[16:25] man some people saying I'm freezing or
[16:27] something no one said anything to me but
[16:28] I'm seeing it happen it went away
[16:30] hopefully it stops it went away
[16:32] hopefully it stops okay all right so
[16:34] keep going what was your question try to
[16:37] understand remember try so how long has
[16:39] there ever been a point where it's been
[16:41] high higher than a 10% conversion
[16:45] rate I don't know the answer to that Pro
[16:48] maybe maybe but probably not Brady might
[16:50] chime in I don't know all right so with
[16:54] that
[16:55] 10% how many of those are actually
[17:00] they're signing up how many are
[17:03] re um what's the word I'm looking for
[17:06] are resubscribing after the year has uh
[17:09] been completed of those who actually
[17:12] sign up yes interesting left turn you
[17:14] took there um
[17:16] zero really yeah does that surprise you
[17:21] this is this is gonna be a really good
[17:22] one learn everybody paying attention
[17:23] this is going to be one of the best ones
[17:24] from a learning perspective this is the
[17:26] importance of paying ATT attention and
[17:30] understand this is why salespeople do
[17:33] not go into a discovery call to sell
[17:36] something your mind does not work at at
[17:39] critical thinking when you have an
[17:41] agenda when you don't have an agenda
[17:44] your mind is simply trying to understand
[17:46] I want to understand I want to
[17:47] understand when you have an agenda it
[17:48] blocks stuff out so right now I'm gonna
[17:52] help you answer your own question you
[17:54] just ask me how many people reup after a
[17:56] year right now the only thing you can
[18:00] buy is Gap selling online training which
[18:04] you've already taken why do you think
[18:06] nobody renews after a year because
[18:09] they've already taken it and they might
[18:11] think that they already know
[18:14] everything so you knew the answer to
[18:16] that question right did so you could
[18:18] have done one of two things you could
[18:20] have you could have not asked it or you
[18:23] could have used a validating question
[18:25] which I talked about in the book you
[18:26] could use a validating question Keenan
[18:27] just validate the reason people don't
[18:30] renew their subscription is because one
[18:33] year is plenty enough time to get
[18:34] through the training You' probably do it
[18:35] two or three times there's really no
[18:37] value in in reenu your subscription is
[18:39] that accurate yes that is 100% accurate
[18:42] next up okay so if no people are
[18:46] renewing the scriptions after they
[18:48] finished the
[18:50] course you're completely focused on the
[18:53] wrong thing Mark F the people who sign
[18:56] up forget them mark focus on the people
[18:59] who aren't signing what do what's this
[19:02] what do you do what does your business
[19:05] do we help people that are on the fence
[19:09] to purchase when people want to when
[19:12] they're on the fence okay so if some
[19:14] keep goinging so if somebody is trying
[19:16] to decide between you or say Josh Braun
[19:19] our AI would know that and our AI would
[19:22] give them a real-time push to sign up
[19:24] for you instead of going over to another
[19:26] sales trainer okay so so let me ask
[19:28] question let's just say I told you I've
[19:31] got 500 people who've gone through the
[19:35] the the trial and never bought is that
[19:39] something you can help me with if I gave
[19:41] you 500 people who showed an indication
[19:43] that they want to buy and didn't buy
[19:45] does your product help solve that it
[19:48] does well then why the [ __ ] are you not
[19:50] asking me about those people seriously
[19:53] seriously this scares me Mark seriously
[19:55] it's logic you are not thinking if I
[19:59] just told you that I have 90% of the
[20:01] people who gone through the trial you
[20:03] never even asked me how many people is
[20:06] that you never ask me that you never
[20:09] asked me then what is your process for
[20:11] trying to re-engage them you didn't say
[20:13] so when they don't go through do you
[20:14] have a um what this damn thing do you
[20:16] have a sequence that you hit them with
[20:18] what does that sequence look like do you
[20:20] ever get people to re-engage after that
[20:21] sequence you to ask any of that Mark any
[20:26] of that do you think Mark
[20:29] that only that we why do you think we
[20:30] offer the free trial to get people to
[20:33] sign up okay so we do it to get people
[20:36] to sign up and they don't sign up Mark I
[20:38] don't understand why this is not deadly
[20:41] plain for you and why you didn't ask any
[20:45] of those
[20:46] questions yeah I'm shocked I kind of
[20:48] suck I'm I'm sucking
[20:52] today no no
[20:54] self-deprecation you don't suck this
[20:57] isn't about Mark okay I don't want you
[20:59] getting all sad and inside you just are
[21:02] missing it and so I'm asking the
[21:04] question why do you think you're missing
[21:05] it I think it's because you came in with
[21:08] an agenda I think it's also because in
[21:11] spite of all your commitment to Gap
[21:13] selling I don't think you've spent
[21:15] enough time internally to understand how
[21:17] people run their businesses you're not
[21:19] bringing the business Acumen to the
[21:22] table because this should have been a
[21:26] home run I threw a giant softball right
[21:30] at you right down the middle of the
[21:31] plate right when not and this is the
[21:34] minute you told me what you did before
[21:37] we came on camera I got excited because
[21:39] I'm like we have a conversion problem
[21:42] that's what you fix yes or no that is
[21:45] correct that is what we fix and I
[21:47] literally told you we have a conversion
[21:50] problem and you walked away from it you
[21:53] literally walked away walk you didn't
[21:55] ask me anything about it so I'm going to
[21:58] give you a second chance try it again
[22:01] okay so out of those 90% that are not
[22:04] buying the courses what tools are you
[22:07] currently using to re-engage them to
[22:10] make the purchases everybody that was a
[22:12] good question like that was a good
[22:16] question that was well done okay so
[22:20] right now we're using
[22:22] HubSpot okay I
[22:24] believe there's a four or five
[22:28] step sequence Brady will chime in and
[22:30] tell me what exactly it is um then the
[22:33] sequence ends we even at the end offer a
[22:36] discount I don't know how much but we
[22:37] keep trying to tell them why they want
[22:38] to do it and keep trying to you know
[22:40] push them now also that being said I do
[22:43] know that recently which plays a part of
[22:45] this conversion is I won't mention the
[22:47] name because I like them but they keep
[22:48] [ __ ] up our developer has SC is as
[22:53] our developers screwed up or messed up
[22:56] the connection between between HubSpot
[23:00] and stripe so I from an automated
[23:03] perspective so I last I heard we weren't
[23:05] getting the names automatically sent to
[23:07] over a hub spite Hub spite HubSpot which
[23:09] was to from stripe and then kicking off
[23:11] the automation so I know that has been
[23:14] down for a while I do know that I just
[23:16] saw some conversation where at least
[23:17] sending a CSV file now and from that CSV
[23:20] file we'll upload and kick
[23:22] the the sequence off but right now it's
[23:25] manual and we're [ __ ] it up so if I'm
[23:29] understanding correctly everything that
[23:31] you do is
[23:34] after they don't sign up yes so it's
[23:37] after you don't have anything any tools
[23:39] in the chest for when they're on their
[23:41] site in real time no is that correct yes
[23:45] okay all right so out of those 90% what
[23:50] would you would be a number that you
[23:54] would like to convert out of that 90%
[23:56] would it be good question look at you
[23:58] you're getting somewhere now um [ __ ] I'd
[24:01] be happy with I don't know i' I'd be
[24:03] happy with 50% maybe that's high maybe
[24:05] that's low um but let me put it this way
[24:08] from a free trial perspective I'd like
[24:10] to see a 50% conversion obviously
[24:13] without a free trial conversion you're
[24:14] just marketing and you're trying to tell
[24:16] them why it's great but I believe that
[24:18] our free trial is pretty good it's the
[24:19] actual training i' I've done some of
[24:21] these as a Ab and I go out and and they
[24:24] give me a trial and it's basically a a
[24:26] souped up marketing piece of [ __ ]
[24:27] [ __ ] it's like I'm not experiencing the
[24:29] product you give me this little tiny
[24:31] little taste but it's all marketing
[24:33] inside so I'm not getting it ours is the
[24:35] full actual training and you get to see
[24:37] the interactivity of it there's value to
[24:39] it at the end so I'd like to think that
[24:41] we could at least get 50% conversion if
[24:44] you go through the trial okay and the
[24:47] free trial um
[24:49] again are you talking about the 30
[24:52] minute free trial is that what you were
[24:53] talking about yes you ask about the free
[24:55] trial that's the only free trial we have
[24:57] again listen but yes that's what I'm
[24:58] talking okay so when people are going
[25:02] through the free trial and they're not
[25:03] signing up and you're having to go
[25:05] through all of the marketing um like the
[25:08] the sales marketing afterwards how much
[25:10] time is that taking your team currently
[25:14] away from possibly doing the corporate
[25:17] sales or for preparing for other
[25:20] webinars that they're holding all right
[25:21] so you're back to trying to get me to
[25:24] buy and you're not listening because I
[25:27] told told you watch this I'm not even
[25:30] tell I'm going to ask you a question how
[25:32] did I tell you the process works I told
[25:34] you the link was broken but how did I
[25:35] tell you the process works what did I
[25:37] say the CSV file they're sending over a
[25:39] CSV file you're having to do it manly
[25:40] correctly right now just the CSV file
[25:43] yeah and then what happens then they are
[25:46] uploading it into the HubSpot to be
[25:49] sending out the um the emails the
[25:51] marketing emails yes from there you have
[25:53] about the four emails that you send yeah
[25:55] and so what do you know about HubSpot
[25:57] anything about hubot what do you know
[25:58] about it well we use HubSpot for rcer
[26:01] okay so once we upload the CSV what do
[26:02] you think happens so when you upload the
[26:05] CSV then you have to put them into a
[26:07] sequence ah and then you're not
[26:09] listening I told you we already have the
[26:13] sequence right so all right so we have
[26:15] to put them in so all we have to do is
[26:16] upload the CSV to that sequence yes so
[26:19] then what do you think happens is it
[26:20] automatic or not automatically yeah
[26:22] it'll be automatic okay so how many
[26:24] people do you think have to upload that
[26:26] CSV
[26:28] just the one person so that think who do
[26:31] you think that one person is I'm
[26:33] probably thinking Brady okay or Brady or
[26:36] is it someone in marketing or is it
[26:37] actually the there i' be somebody in
[26:39] marketing so it wouldn't be anybody to
[26:41] do with that okay thank you this is the
[26:43] listening part that I'm desperate not
[26:45] just for you mark but I'm desperate for
[26:47] sales people to get in general do you
[26:49] see how your question was a wasted
[26:51] question once again I do I do I do and
[26:53] the reason you asked that question was
[26:55] because you were you're desperate to get
[26:57] me to say you're literally desperate to
[26:59] get me to say the time that my team
[27:01] spends is is keeping us from selling
[27:04] stuff to the Enterprise Market that is
[27:06] your goal am I right or wrong that was
[27:09] technically what I was trying to my plan
[27:11] was for the before the call yes yes is
[27:13] you're desperate to get me to say that
[27:15] that is your goal and that's why you're
[27:18] [ __ ] up stop trying to get me to say
[27:20] that instead you found a real problem
[27:24] and you keep walking away from it
[27:25] because you have an agenda MH right go
[27:28] listen I've given you so much
[27:30] information so much information and
[27:32] because of your agenda and again
[27:34] everybody listening to this this is
[27:36] probably one of the best ones from a
[27:38] learning experience for all of you if
[27:39] you're paying
[27:40] attention your agenda is screwing you
[27:44] your agenda is absolutely screwing you
[27:46] because you're not listening to the
[27:49] buyer so I'm going to lay this out for
[27:52] you and everybody listening and watch
[27:54] what Mark has missed one we have an
[27:58] online training program that gets no
[28:01] subscription renewal on the back end
[28:03] because there's very little
[28:05] value very little value to to reup it
[28:09] two we are starting this Gap Plus
[28:12] subscription
[28:13] service where you get new content
[28:17] weekly in addition live content recorded
[28:21] content Etc in addition to the online
[28:24] training for a
[28:26] subscription okay
[28:28] we are currently allowing people to take
[28:30] a half half hour of the actual training
[28:34] to convert them and they're not
[28:38] converting with all of that
[28:42] information what do you think like what
[28:44] question should you be asking what do
[28:45] you think we're trying to do here right
[28:48] now so we're trying to convert the
[28:50] people that aren't signing up after the
[28:53] 30 minute free trial so they sign up to
[28:55] your your subscription Online
[29:00] subscription okay that would be part of
[29:02] it but no the big picture Mark is we're
[29:05] trying to increase the value of the
[29:08] overall online program and we're trying
[29:11] to grow
[29:13] it and make it sticky so people
[29:17] subscribe year after year after
[29:20] year that's what we're trying to do so
[29:23] technically speaking you potentially
[29:25] could be a huge asset in this but you
[29:28] don't see it you literally don't see it
[29:32] I see it I'm GNA tell you right now your
[29:34] damn [ __ ] straight we're gonna set a
[29:36] meeting after this but like every other
[29:38] sale that you sales people [ __ ] make
[29:40] I gotta do the work you didn't do [ __ ] I
[29:43] got to do the work I had to process
[29:46] everything that I got going on I'm like
[29:47] okay if we can fix
[29:50] conversions it is way more valuable to
[29:53] us to work with you I'm tell I'm just
[29:55] going to tell you the whole story I'm
[29:56] going to tell it to you so maybe it'll
[29:57] sink in so the next time you do one of
[29:59] these we're trying to grow the overall
[30:02] value of the online training program
[30:04] 100% so now we're adding new content on
[30:07] a regular basis that's both live that's
[30:09] both recorded that people can come back
[30:11] to that they can participate on a very
[30:13] regular basis in improving their sales
[30:15] skills which means and a subscription
[30:18] base which means if I can maximize the
[30:20] number of people that are on this
[30:22] platform I can make a shitload more
[30:24] money but right now our approach to
[30:27] converting these people and getting them
[30:29] on into pay is not where I'd like it to
[30:31] be so I got to figure that piece out if
[30:34] I'm making all this investment I got to
[30:36] figure that out the overall value of
[30:40] this program is going to go from $4.99 a
[30:43] person right to $79 a
[30:48] month okay so you're going more of a a
[30:52] SAS model then so it's G be a monthly
[30:54] recurrent fee instead of the yearly fee
[30:56] yes so so it's even more valuable to me
[31:00] now that if I drive people to the site
[31:04] to convert them and oh why am I going to
[31:06] drive more people to the site than I was
[31:08] before if you were paying attention you
[31:09] were thinking we I told you in the
[31:12] beginning I hope everybody staying with
[31:14] me because this is deep [ __ ] and he
[31:15] should have got this didn't I tell you
[31:18] that it's free right now all these Gap
[31:21] ours but in about 30 days it will not be
[31:24] free you did say that yes so so but we
[31:27] will still Market these to people and
[31:30] they'll want to come sign up and it's
[31:32] going to say hey this gapar is going to
[31:34] be
[31:35] $25 or you can pay 79 a month and
[31:39] they're all free and you get online
[31:43] training so they're go every single time
[31:46] we do a gapar they will be pointed back
[31:50] to [ __ ] subscribe don't keep paying
[31:52] $25 for a one-time live
[31:56] seat or $50 whatever we choose to charge
[31:59] you see my point I see you I gave you
[32:02] 90% of this information in little pieces
[32:07] in our conversation and 80% of it went
[32:10] in and
[32:11] out yeah do you see that I do see that
[32:16] right so this is why this is such a
[32:18] powerful experience in Mark every
[32:20] salesperson listening to this right now
[32:23] needs to send you some flowers or gift
[32:25] cards or something because you
[32:28] highlighted what they do
[32:31] wrong every salesperson who is not
[32:34] really well versed in being a gap seller
[32:37] does exactly what you do they ask all
[32:39] these questions they do not listen they
[32:41] do not put the pieces
[32:44] together and they missed the sale you're
[32:47] just lucky that I'm thinking about this
[32:49] for myself I'm like oh I could do
[32:51] something with this
[32:53] potentially and I'm willing to hear more
[32:55] but you didn't do it go God forbid you
[32:57] didn't do it at all yeah okay so I'm
[33:01] going to give you I'm going to give you
[33:02] like three
[33:03] minutes but and then I'm gonna let you
[33:06] try to see what you can do with all that
[33:09] information I gave you and just ask
[33:11] questions show me you learn you can ask
[33:13] some good questions to faret this out
[33:16] okay so you mentioned that you are going
[33:18] to be going to the subscription model in
[33:21] the near future so for the $79 you're
[33:23] going to be charging a flat fee for the
[33:26] the webinars
[33:27] you also mentioned that you're going to
[33:28] be say that again say that again say
[33:30] that again put in fullard you're gonna
[33:31] be charging a flat fee for the webinars
[33:33] if they're not subscription mod or the
[33:35] subscription model yeah there you go yes
[33:38] yes yes so when you are going to be
[33:43] marketing the
[33:44] people and you're going to be try and
[33:46] convert them from going from the 25 or
[33:49] the $50 that it is to subscription
[33:55] model thank you
[33:58] here what don't you know what don't you
[34:00] know what do you think that I'm not
[34:02] thinking
[34:11] about yeah my mind is going blank here
[34:15] so so you were gonna ask the
[34:18] question we're gonna the way we're gonna
[34:20] continue to bring exposure to this is We
[34:22] Will We Will promote these gapar we were
[34:25] gonna we're gonna do them live and we're
[34:27] gonna do them live forever okay cool new
[34:29] topics tool cool new Concepts they're
[34:32] all to teach and train and educate
[34:33] people right no selling involved in the
[34:35] gaap right no go by a thing so every
[34:39] time we come out with one it's gonna
[34:40] like hey this is gon to cost you bra
[34:42] that it's 30 I thought it was 25 maybe
[34:43] it's gonna be 40 doesn't matter but hey
[34:46] sign up today for our our gap andar on
[34:49] how to do brilliant disc Discovery and
[34:51] close more deals I'm making the [ __ ] out
[34:52] right someone goes and they're gonna
[34:55] sign up for it it's gonna be $40 and
[34:57] like and then we say or get a yearly
[35:00] subscription and get free access to all
[35:03] of our gapin ours as well as ask Keenan
[35:08] and the online sales
[35:11] training go sign up today so that's our
[35:14] it's our primary marketing engine is
[35:16] doing each one of these and letting and
[35:18] announcing and this is it they they're
[35:19] interested and they go to sign up and
[35:21] they realize oh I can spend $40 now or I
[35:24] can get the online Gap selling training
[35:25] eight hours of training plus ask
[35:27] Keenan's anything plus plus plus plus
[35:29] plus plus plus they get to make a choice
[35:32] that's how we're going to get exposure
[35:33] to it
[35:35] yeah all
[35:39] right Rich a dogget good question baby
[35:42] good
[35:43] question good question Richard Dogg it I
[35:47] did not see the question so I don't
[35:48] that's okay so I'll give you a hint yeah
[35:51] people can pay the $40 for the one time
[35:55] thing or they can go buy the
[35:56] subscription what does that what does
[35:58] that um trigger for you so I guess
[36:04] what's I'm curious about is what the
[36:07] conversion rate is going to be on that
[36:09] from the people that can either purchase
[36:12] the $25 or the
[36:14] $79 and we don't have that information
[36:16] yet U because you haven't went live
[36:22] so
[36:24] yeah okay so I'm going to break it down
[36:26] and then I'm then I'm going to give you
[36:27] a few minutes to ask questions because
[36:28] you're lost you're completely L I have
[36:30] lost
[36:32] okay I told you that I didn't this is
[36:36] how we're going to do it okay dodg asked
[36:40] a great question he said what's your
[36:42] plan for people who pay the one-time
[36:44] transaction fee but then don't sign up
[36:47] for the
[36:49] subscription
[36:50] 
[36:51] ah [ __ ] yes Mark yes please dude dude
[36:57] this oh Mark that should have been top
[37:01] of mind yeah it should have been you're
[37:04] you're you're a [ __ ] conversion
[37:06] company whether you want to recognize or
[37:08] not in my two senses and out of fairness
[37:10] to you and your company they're not
[37:11] teaching you this this is why you're
[37:13] [ __ ] and this is why sales people are
[37:14] [ __ ] you're not coming at this looking
[37:16] at this through a conversion perspective
[37:19] so you're not triggered by things around
[37:22] conversion you should have asked hey
[37:24] Keenan when someone does Buy and they
[37:27] just sign up for the onetime training do
[37:30] you have a conversion approach for that
[37:31] right now and my answer would be
[37:33] probably how we're doing it on the other
[37:34] throw into a HubSpot thing right and
[37:37] then you should be able to say all right
[37:39] well if you throw them in there and they
[37:40] still don't buy do you have any insight
[37:43] do you have any way of determining why
[37:45] they didn't or influencing it other than
[37:47] the push of just the HubSpot sequence
[37:50] I'd say no not at all we're not that
[37:52] sophisticated we don't have those
[37:53] resources right then if you're smart
[37:57] I'm assuming your product does something
[37:59] along those lines then you could say
[38:01] something like could you see or if you
[38:03] were able
[38:05] to get certain information and data on
[38:07] them how you could move them in a
[38:10] direction by using that yeah tell me
[38:11] more right but you're literally missing
[38:16] the entire convers you've asked me no
[38:18] questions whatsoever on what our plans
[38:21] are for converting these
[38:23] people none okay
[38:27] and that's where we're going to need the
[38:28] help that's why I'm going to let you
[38:30] talk to Brady and myself about how you
[38:32] guys can help because I figured this out
[38:36] basically 39 minutes ago yeah right I
[38:41] feelig but it was it's your job to get
[38:43] me to figure it out because let's just
[38:45] say I didn't really wasn't thinking this
[38:47] way and you're trying to sell me if I
[38:50] don't get it and you didn't ask these
[38:52] questions you just lost an opportunity
[38:54] where I should have at least given you a
[38:55] second chance
[38:58] it's
[38:59] true that is
[39:01] true okay what question
[39:05] so I guess my my question would be about
[39:07] the conversions then and you you've kind
[39:10] of already answered that but um so when
[39:13] somebody does signs up and they don't
[39:15] convert to the subscription
[39:17] model what are the plans moving forward
[39:21] to get them besides just an email
[39:23] marketing campaign so right now that's
[39:26] that's I think all we would know to do
[39:27] so we would capture we will not if we
[39:30] will if they sign up they'll sign up to
[39:31] a vent right right they'll they'll pay
[39:34] the $40 whatever the number is right and
[39:36] we'll capture their information now and
[39:39] then we'll then we'll send them we'll
[39:42] put them in some sort of sequence which
[39:43] has not been built yet right because
[39:45] what's G and then so they're gonna end
[39:47] up in our our email newsletter and in
[39:49] our email newsletter that's one of the
[39:51] ways we Market the new Gap Gap in ours
[39:54] so we might pull those people out and
[39:58] we'd say hey a new gapin hour is coming
[40:00] out we saw you attended the last one or
[40:02] A1 because I don't think we could do it
[40:04] that way and then be like if you're
[40:06] interested sign up here but you might
[40:10] want to consider subscription because
[40:12] you already paid $40 you know what I'm
[40:14] saying and we might discount we might
[40:17] say I already been to one so you know
[40:19] don't keep spending 40 or 30 bucks each
[40:21] right like it's $79 a month here has a
[40:23] 20% discount or something like that just
[40:26] sign up the subscription and get them
[40:27] all the time so we might do that but
[40:29] it's still just an
[40:32] email uh Cadence to hubot yeah okay
[40:39] so would it be no this could be another
[40:42] self-serving question I was going to ask
[40:45] there all right so with the conversions
[40:48] that will hopefully be happening he said
[40:50] that you might be offering a discount
[40:53] okay let me help you out here let me
[40:54] help you out let me help you I think we
[40:55] I think we' got decent diagnosis of the
[40:58] current state problem okay okay we could
[41:00] go deeper but I know what it is in the
[41:02] interest right so you got me we could do
[41:05] I believe we could do a better job we
[41:06] just don't know how and if you can do a
[41:07] better job you're gonna get our business
[41:09] but what you haven't done now is you
[41:11] haven't gone into the desired future
[41:14] State I told you again I told you we're
[41:17] building this because the online only
[41:20] lasts once it's
[41:22] $499 I didn't say this part but you
[41:24] should have figured it out and therefore
[41:25] we believe that asking people to pay 500
[41:27] bucks in one sitting is a a barrier but
[41:30] we're not going to let you do it in
[41:32] small payments because then if you
[41:33] cancel after you've just watched it you
[41:37] don't keep it for a year so this is and
[41:39] we know that there's no value after you
[41:41] so we want to keep creating the content
[41:42] to keep you around right so with all of
[41:45] that said what do you think my ultimate
[41:49] goal is your ultimate goal is to
[41:52] increase the lifetime value of every
[41:53] customer case you asked you've asked no
[41:55] question question around that you've
[41:57] asked no questions around our current
[41:59] state or our future State you've asked
[42:02] zero go there so with the future state
[42:07] that you're looking
[42:08] for
[42:14] what with the current my business think
[42:17] about my business yeah so you're the
[42:20] business is online training so it's
[42:21] train in salespeople like myself to not
[42:24] be so self-serving
[42:26] so the ultimate goal um for the company
[42:31] in the
[42:36] future okay Mark you are really really
[42:40] struggling with some easy ones I am okay
[42:43] if if I currently currently have this
[42:46] one
[42:47] offering okay and I'm adding adding and
[42:51] I'm adding new offerings what do you
[42:53] think I want to
[42:55] do you want to increase the sales you
[42:58] want to increase your clientele with the
[43:00] new content you want to generate more
[43:02] content to bring people in okay good
[43:05] good so in this case using the
[43:07] appropriate words what do I want to
[43:11] increase you want to increase your
[43:13] online conversions from people that are
[43:16] that's nope close what do I want to
[43:19] increase if I increase my online
[43:21] convergence what do I get more of
[43:23] Revenue you want to increase your reeven
[43:25] no there's something in between God I
[43:27] what do I get if I get more online conv
[43:29] verions what do I get more of more
[43:32] students okay okay more students but
[43:34] what's the term in SAS come on
[43:37] Mark so the term in SAS
[43:40] um I I don't know what that term in sass
[43:43] would be subscriptions Mark sub
[43:45] subscriptions Mark sub Mark I can't help
[43:49] lack of thinking right I'm frustrated
[43:51] because I'm desperate for you to get it
[43:52] not I'm mad at you but I get so
[43:54] passionate when people miss it I do this
[43:56] to my kids too okay
[43:58] Mark you can't win this game if you
[44:01] can't think like that so currently
[44:04] here's your hand currently I am at an X
[44:07] Place why do you think I'm doing this to
[44:10] increase my subscriptions now ask
[44:13] questions to formulate a gap please get
[44:17] this right okay so if you are trying to
[44:22] in increase your subscriptions with this
[44:24] new formula well about doing the monthly
[44:27] the monthly um the 89 or 79 whatever it
[44:31] is going to be good good yep
[44:35] when not when Mark what okay you're
[44:38] trying to formulate the Gap yeah ask
[44:42] what is going to happen if you're not
[44:43] able to increase the no Mark
[44:46] no Mark current state future State ask
[44:51] the question
[44:52] now so in the future no if you're not
[44:57] current state future State okay
[44:59] currently right now go so currently
[45:02] right now you have a conversion problem
[45:05] that you're trying to increase with okay
[45:07] y okay y we increase with subscriptions
[45:10] yep and the future State no no ask a
[45:13] question what don't you know right now
[45:16] I'm gonna do this I'm gonna I'm gonna
[45:17] shift gears and come back I call you up
[45:20] and say I gotta [ __ ] lose weight this
[45:23] sucks what's the first question you're
[45:25] gonna ask me
[45:26] what are you doing to lose weight what
[45:28] what's your current goals right now how
[45:30] much weight you want to lose okay okay
[45:31] okay okay all right I'll go with this
[45:32] all right what's my current goal be a
[45:34] little more specific what do you mean
[45:35] what's my current goal use it in terms
[45:37] of losing weight what's the
[45:39] question why do you want to lose weight
[45:42] current state future state do not move
[45:44] from that I call you up I want to lose
[45:47] weight current state future State what's
[45:50] the question so what are you currently
[45:52] weighting now and what do you want to
[45:54] this one this one yeah yay yeah yay yay
[45:57] yay yay yay I weigh 400 lb okay what's
[46:01] your target goal that you want to be at
[46:03] 200 lb Mark great job Merry Christmas
[46:07] now come back to my online training so
[46:12] right now how many subscribers do you
[46:14] have [ __ ] thank
[46:17] you thank you Mark do you get it
[46:21] now do you get it now so right now I
[46:24] don't know the exact number but I'm
[46:26] going to say we do just over six figures
[46:30] so probably whatever that math is about
[46:35] 100 100 150 100 150 subscribers a year
[46:40] and what is the number that you're
[46:42] looking to grow to H I would love
[46:46] nothing more to get to over a thousand
[46:49] subscribers in the next 24 months and
[46:53] what are the plans to get to those
[46:55] thousand subscribers in the next 24
[46:58] months So the plan is by the way before
[47:01] you go any further do you see what you I
[47:03] think you missed the genius in your two
[47:08] questions I think you missed it I'm only
[47:11] at 100 to 150 right now I like to get
[47:15] you want to like times five to get up to
[47:17] a thousand yeah times five it's 150
[47:19] times 10 right if it's 100
[47:23] Okay so
[47:26] I told you right
[47:28] now that the way to do that is I'm
[47:31] adding this subscription basis like this
[47:33] is I've already told you what I'm doing
[47:34] right I'm adding this content I'm adding
[47:37] the Gap Plus subscription Etc so you
[47:39] know what I'm doing okay but what you
[47:42] but this is where you can zero in now on
[47:45] what you do so Keenan what you're saying
[47:48] is is that you want to get to a th but
[47:51] your conversion rate right now is only
[47:53] 10% and the only things you're doing to
[47:56] convert people is send those things back
[47:59] to them right so now you should be able
[48:02] to identify the whole in my strategy and
[48:06] you might say let me ask you something
[48:07] really quick right Brady just sent me a
[48:09] text she probably gonna yell at me for
[48:10] something um let me ask you a question
[48:13] right um oh she lied we get 200 to 225
[48:17] e-commerce purchases a year so I'd like
[48:20] I'd like to move that to a thousand okay
[48:22] so it's five Okay so
[48:26] what you should do now is what is wrong
[48:29] or what is missing everybody pay
[48:31] attention it's going to help you all
[48:32] it's going to help every single person
[48:34] what is missing in my
[48:36] strategy that you know you do that could
[48:39] improve
[48:40] it do you have any tools in real time
[48:44] that can help you get from the 225 up to
[48:48] a
[48:49] th so no Mark yes I have the tools I
[48:53] have hutspot Mark let me help you out
[48:55] everybody pay tent would help Mark again
[48:56] this is probably in my opinion the
[48:58] greatest Gap selling of all time because
[49:00] of all the learnings in here that
[49:02] everybody does Mark can you tell me two
[49:05] or three things that your product or
[49:07] service does that that HubSpot does not
[49:09] do when it comes to conversion of course
[49:12] so the first thing is a realtime AI
[49:14] nudges so our AI will be able to know
[49:17] where the people are coming from in
[49:19] Google what they're typing in we'll be
[49:21] able to know how many times they been on
[49:23] your website what pages they
[49:26] stop right
[49:27] there now turn so I want you to say
[49:31] besides using
[49:34] HubSpot take what you do and flip it
[49:36] into a question right now so besides
[49:39] using
[49:40] HubSpot what currently are you looking
[49:43] at no to okay no because you're asking
[49:46] besides using HubSpot I'm GNA give you
[49:48] another hint okay yeah besid you HubSpot
[49:51] this is a hint everybody [ __ ] write
[49:52] this down write it down okay
[49:56] are you
[49:58] able besides using HubSpot are you able
[50:02] to use real time oh my God no yeah sorry
[50:08] Keenan I what did you just take what you
[50:10] just said to me Mark yeah what did you
[50:13] just say besides using
[50:16] HubSpot are you able to know if anybody
[50:20] is browsing multiple pages on your
[50:22] website where they're coming from Google
[50:24] and if they're looking for other sales
[50:27] trainers how did that feel coming off
[50:29] your mouth it felt better yeah and why
[50:32] do you think it felt better why do you
[50:34] think that felt better because it's more
[50:38] diagnosing you than it is trying to sell
[50:41] what we're selling yes but all more so
[50:44] you know that I can't do that man yeah
[50:49] Mark you know that I don't have that and
[50:52] so now I'm thinking no I can't do that
[50:56] so now ask the next
[50:58] question so if you can't do
[51:02] that do you think that would hinder your
[51:06] chance of getting to the Thousand say I
[51:09] think don't say do I think turn that
[51:10] into how so now it's a how question no I
[51:13] can't do that so then what's the how
[51:15] question how are you going to get to a
[51:17] thousand subscribers get no Mark you
[51:21] have to stay in the solution so all
[51:23] right so no I can't do any of that so
[51:24] Keenan understanding you don't have any
[51:26] of this data how are you able to
[51:29] influence each person based on their own
[51:32] Journey how are you able to feed up
[51:34] information that increase the chance of
[51:36] them converting if you're just treating
[51:39] everybody exactly the
[51:42] same am I am I am I on the right track
[51:46] here isn't that what you do doesn't your
[51:47] AI create a different um Journey because
[51:49] you're going to nudge them based on
[51:51] their individual activity no that is
[51:53] correct yeah so then why aren't you
[51:54] asking me that question you know I can't
[51:57] do it and because I can't do it you know
[51:59] I'm unable to then engage with people in
[52:01] a personalized matter span you should
[52:03] ask that question so if you can't do
[52:04] this how do you do this and I'm like I
[52:06] can't
[52:07] okay so if if you
[52:11] can't personalize their each their
[52:17] Journey what are you going to be doing
[52:20] can you see how this would minim can you
[52:23] see how this would minimize can you see
[52:26] how this would minimize your growth to
[52:28] get to the Thousand subscribers almost
[52:31] almost what problem do you solve you
[52:32] almost got there [ __ ] the
[52:38] conversions can you see that how this
[52:41] could impact your ability to convert
[52:42] people yeah yes absolutely I see that
[52:46] absolutely I see
[52:48] that y so with that being
[52:51] said without having the knowledge and
[52:54] the know how how to be able to do this
[52:57] do you think it would be worthwhile to
[53:00] dig a little bit deeper into this to see
[53:02] how we might be able to help convert
[53:05] th%
[53:07] thousand, percent awesome well I just by
[53:12] the way by the way I'm gonna help just
[53:14] for you for everybody else because then
[53:15] we got to get right um You never asked
[53:19] you never did the math
[53:21] difference so not only did I say I want
[53:23] to go to a thousand people people right
[53:26] now at 400 basically 49 but 500 what's
[53:30] 500times a th000 500K okay what is
[53:35] 799 time 12 time a
[53:38] th000 uh so that would be that 960k
[53:42] roughly just under a
[53:44] million so not only is this about
[53:47] getting more subscribers this is about
[53:50] driving more
[53:54] Revenue you picking up what I'm putting
[53:56] down so you if you had just slowed down
[53:58] and done that math you could also s ke
[54:01] and it's not just about getting that
[54:02] thousand subscribers it's getting that
[54:03] thousand
[54:05] subscribers times uh basically a million
[54:09] times a thousand versus times
[54:12] 500 right
[54:15] yeah Kenan thank
[54:18] you I want to say thank you was this
[54:21] yeah it is it is it's you've pointed a
[54:24] lot of flaws into my thinking and I have
[54:29] a lot to take away from from this and a
[54:31] lot more learning to do so I just want
[54:33] to say thank you for that dude thank
[54:35] yourself because you stood in there you
[54:38] stood tall you responded to my intensity
[54:42] you were trying your ass off you
[54:44] recognized that my passion was not to
[54:46] beat you down but because I was just
[54:48] emotionally connected and I just
[54:50] desperate for you to get it you see what
[54:51] I'm saying and so I hope you learn from
[54:54] this like and by the way every single
[54:56] person listening and all of you here on
[54:59] on LinkedIn let me know if you got
[55:01] something from this because if you
[55:02] didn't you're helpless like this was I
[55:04] mean it this was from a learning
[55:08] perspective hands down the best Gap cell
[55:12] Keenan yet because there was so many
[55:15] traps that you fell into that were so
[55:18] clear that I could diagnose them for
[55:21] everybody in the
[55:23] moment and so if people aren't seeing
[55:25] this I don't know what to say I just
[55:28] don't know what to say because this was
[55:30] powerful so for you what are your
[55:32] takeaways what are you going to do
[55:33] walking away from this so the first
[55:35] thing is I am going to get rid of the
[55:38] agendas going into Discovery call never
[55:40] again am I going to start trying to sell
[55:42] people I'm going to be digging into
[55:45] their like why are they not hitting the
[55:47] numbers that they're trying to hit why
[55:49] are the conversions not happening that
[55:51] is the greatest takeaway that I'll be
[55:53] taking away from this and excellent
[55:55] excellent excellent excellent right you
[55:58] just I want you to go in with the
[55:59] mindset of trying to
[56:02] understand okay then what I would
[56:04] suggest you do is you start and maybe
[56:06] you do and it just didn't show up here
[56:08] but I would spend more time trying to
[56:09] learn about the world I'm selling you
[56:12] okay yeah excuse me what are all the
[56:14] different approaches that people use for
[56:16] conversion now what information does the
[56:18] average company have they don't have how
[56:20] are they if they're
[56:22] leveraging sequences how do they get
[56:25] those sequences how do they write those
[56:26] sequences how do they get their
[56:28] information what data are they using
[56:30] like see what I'm doing here I'm just
[56:32] asking I'm thinking through my head what
[56:35] is going on
[56:37] here okay and then based on what you're
[56:39] doing here what's the outcome you're
[56:42] currently
[56:44] getting is that enough is that working
[56:47] do you feel you're getting a return for
[56:49] all of that effort and then in addition
[56:52] to that are you able to see where they
[56:55] came from are you able to see what who
[56:58] they're else they're looking at are you
[56:59] able to see these things no I'm not so
[57:03] if we could add that to you do you think
[57:05] that would actually improve your
[57:07] absolutely I would think that could
[57:08] improve my conversion okay and then so
[57:10] where you looking to build this what are
[57:12] the goals you structure the the future
[57:14] State then you you uh create that Gap
[57:18] and then you do what you did at the
[57:19] brand based on everything I'm hearing it
[57:20] sounds like there might be some good
[57:21] opportunities it Mak sense to a follow
[57:22] on conversation to go deeper into this
[57:28] was that helpful that was more than
[57:30] helpful my friend I just want to say
[57:32] thank you and yeah it was very well um
[57:36] and I knew I I know your personality so
[57:39] I don't take this personally at all or
[57:41] anything in fact I was kind of
[57:42] disappointed I didn't get yelled out the
[57:44] last time I
[57:46] was well it's probably because it was so
[57:47] shitty I wasn't gonna I just I can't
[57:49] even waste my time getting mad at this
[57:50] poor guy but no look you made
[57:52] improvements but most importantly you
[57:54] kept trying you were working to get it
[57:58] and so now just keep working out
[58:00] business Acumen my man business acum
[58:02] that's the key piece I think for you and
[58:04] to listen okay all right so but guess
[58:07] what you get to come back on um the
[58:10] online training get to go through it
[58:11] again we're g to give you
[58:13] another subscription to it run at it so
[58:17] congratulations watch thank you very
[58:19] much yeah take notes please hit me up or
[58:21] hit Brady up directly and we'll get you
[58:22] the the code to get you started on it
[58:24] again for free so for coming on that's
[58:27] the the consolation prize and please hit
[58:30] up Brady if you have her email if you
[58:32] don't hit me up and we will set up a
[58:33] call I am definitely interested in what
[58:36] you guys offer in spite of the fact that
[58:39] I had to do it on my own so we may end
[58:41] up buying anyways awesome well Keenan
[58:43] thank you my friend and I will be in
[58:45] touch all right baby all right my man
[58:49] take care bro all right
[58:51] everybody that was I thought that one
[58:54] was dope like I'm a little fired up
[58:57] right now but I think that one was dope
[59:01] um tons of learnings tons and tons of
[59:05] learnings I I'm I'm not kidding if you
[59:07] didn't see the learnings in that you
[59:08] weren't trying and so I think what I'd
[59:11] like most of you to walk away with here
[59:14] is I'd like you
[59:16] to ask
[59:18] yourself do you do any of these things
[59:21] do you go into a sales calls sales call
[59:23] with an agenda do you have a preset of
[59:26] questions that you're trying to flush
[59:27] out do you have a hard time connecting
[59:30] the dots to what the the buyer tells you
[59:33] do you understand when the buyer's
[59:35] talking how that impacts their business
[59:36] are you able to ask questions logical
[59:39] questions building on what they shared
[59:41] you are you actually
[59:43] listening or you asking the question
[59:45] just for the answer and if you don't get
[59:47] the answer you want you jump to a new
[59:49] question trying to get an answer you
[59:51] want as opposed to actually listening to
[59:53] what the buyer says and
[59:56] constructing an understanding of where
[59:59] the buyer
[1:00:00] is what they're trying to
[1:00:03] accomplish and what is getting in the
[1:00:05] way of them accomplishing that so I
[1:00:08] think there's a lot of self-reflection
[1:00:10] that can go on here for all of you and
[1:00:11] the question is are you going to do the
[1:00:13] work because this was a good one so with
[1:00:16] that for those of you who are new to
[1:00:17] this once again Gap cell Keenan is a
[1:00:21] real sales call with a real salesperson
[1:00:25] who is trying to sell me or ASG
[1:00:28] something we will buy if they find a
[1:00:32] problem we have and they can solve it
[1:00:34] but if not they will get their coaching
[1:00:37] from me and in today's they found a
[1:00:39] problem that I am very very interested
[1:00:41] in solving so who knows maybe we'll end
[1:00:43] up buying but hopefully one of these
[1:00:45] days someone gets me to see the problem
[1:00:48] through their selling not me figuring
[1:00:50] out the problem by listening to them
[1:00:52] drone all right so everybody thank you
[1:00:55] this was Gap cell Keenan number 69 you
[1:00:58] know what I'm gonna oh if you want to
[1:00:59] Gap sell me DM me and we'll get you on
[1:01:02] the show all right but until next time
[1:01:04] you know what I'm gonna say peace I'm
[1:01:06] out all I here go get the money so I get
[1:01:10] it hate means I do something

===FILE=== XiQ3KC4rJok - The Power of Critical Thinking Gap Selling with Keenan The Global Sales Leader Podcast Ep.txt
https://youtu.be/XiQ3KC4rJok
The Power of Critical Thinking Gap Selling with Keenan The Global Sales Leader Podcast Ep 75
[0:01] hello good morning good evening and good
[0:03] afternoon and wherever you are in this
[0:05] wide wonderful beautiful world that we
[0:07] live in you are very welcome to the
[0:10] global sales leader podcast I am your
[0:12] host Jason Cooper so I'm always thrilled
[0:17] to have another exciting guest and uh I
[0:22] plowed through the internet to try and
[0:23] find him eventually I found Kenan uh the
[0:26] author of Gap selling uh and we're going
[0:29] to have a look at all facets around Gap
[0:32] Celia I'm always intrigued by a a new
[0:35] methodology a new way and a new take to
[0:38] reach more
[0:39] customers and to get that buying
[0:41] decision yes so Keenan R and me talking
[0:46] about you and your experience and
[0:48] everything else could you give us uh
[0:50] some little bit of a background of who
[0:53] you are and how you got into where you
[0:55] are right now wow my
[0:58] background uh um it like anything else
[1:01] is long windy Meandering road I'll cut
[1:04] to the chase um I got here because I
[1:09] started selling later in life late 20s
[1:13] was really good at it really really good
[1:14] at it like really really good at it
[1:16] didn't know what I was doing I just came
[1:17] naturally to me right like an athlete
[1:18] some people are just naturally fast
[1:20] naturally strong whatever I was just
[1:21] really good at it so my career went
[1:23] really fast I went from selling a $300
[1:28] widget in 1997 to running a $325
[1:34] million line of business with 125 salesp
[1:37] people scattered across the entire
[1:38] United States so when that company
[1:41] started being pushed out by DSL
[1:44] high-speed internet because they sold
[1:45] the the numbers for dialup uh I had a
[1:49] hard time getting another job because
[1:51] people were like you're 32 you ran this
[1:53] giant piece of business you've only got
[1:55] a resume that goes back three years
[1:58] there's there was no LinkedIn at the
[1:59] time time you know what I'm saying so I
[2:01] didn't like it it it bother it was very
[2:04] difficult to stay there and continue so
[2:05] my career sort of staed out because my
[2:07] resume wouldn't support it so in 2009 I
[2:09] said screw this and I started a Blog and
[2:13] I wrote every single day for two years
[2:15] on how to manage sales teams run sales
[2:18] team hire people processes like I just
[2:20] wrote about everything I was doing and
[2:23] the idea was all right if I get a couple
[2:26] thousand people to read it regularly and
[2:28] I need a job in the future just go to
[2:30] the blog and say hey I'm looking for a
[2:32] new gig and these people would have been
[2:33] following me knew me understood how I
[2:36] did things so I was like I viewed it as
[2:38] a ongoing interview you know what I'm
[2:40] saying an ongoing interview for years
[2:42] yeah what what what happened I didn't
[2:44] expect is I started getting 20,000
[2:45] 30,000 views and then all of a sudden
[2:48] people started naming me top sales
[2:50] influencer top sales blog blah blah blah
[2:52] blah blah So eventually then people
[2:55] started reaching out my sales team is
[2:57] having problems can you help can you
[2:58] help can you help and and finally I do
[3:01] some changes I found myself with a
[3:03] choice go try to find another job or
[3:06] start
[3:07] this consulting firm so I said screw it
[3:10] and I started going out on my own and
[3:11] then after eight years of doing that and
[3:14] qu coaching and teaching and leading and
[3:15] training I started to see some Trends
[3:17] and that's when I started to write the
[3:18] book and here we are wow I I love that
[3:22] and I I like the process is going well
[3:24] should I get a job or should I uh just
[3:25] do this and your gut process said yeah
[3:29] it's the right thing to do and yeah from
[3:33] what I've seen now is everyone's writing
[3:35] blogs and posts on LinkedIn and so on so
[3:37] forth and it and it does work if it's
[3:41] consistency which is absolutely core to
[3:45] success H and if you keep on doing it
[3:47] and keep on doing it you you practice
[3:50] and practice until you get really good
[3:53] at what you do which is what I love to
[3:55] do like I'm I'm quite curious now
[3:58] because of last year
[4:01] the sort of AI is really com to itself
[4:04] as as you know like it's been around for
[4:06] Years anyway but it's really everyone's
[4:08] doing chat GPT and this that and the
[4:10] other how do you think the 2024 is going
[4:14] to change with selling and selling
[4:18] practices because I will think like
[4:20] people communication is absolutely core
[4:23] especially for the the Next Generation
[4:26] coming through how what's your take on
[4:28] that I don't I don't like AI in sales
[4:31] right now not at all not at all um look
[4:35] I'm being at a macro level do I think
[4:37] there are some use cases or applications
[4:40] at the micro layer for AI absolutely I
[4:43] think there's probably some good uses
[4:44] from a research perspective I think
[4:46] there may be some good uses for some low
[4:49] volume or
[4:52] low low I don't know what the word is
[4:54] but simple tasks some simple type tasks
[4:57] but I don't really concern myself too
[4:59] much with AI right now because my belief
[5:01] system and my thesis on selling is that
[5:04] it is highly complex critical thinking
[5:08] and AI is not a critical thinker right
[5:10] now ai requires very black and white
[5:13] data and it'll start to manipulate that
[5:15] data and find Trends I can get behind
[5:18] you know where I think AI has the
[5:19] greatest chance to actually make a
[5:21] difference is in
[5:23] forecasting yeah I'm sure someone's out
[5:25] there working on it now I think the best
[5:28] place for AI in sales today is
[5:30] forecasting because AI can take the the
[5:33] the finite data that sits in your CRM
[5:36] and it can start to look for Trends
[5:38] right that says okay I noticed that this
[5:40] is this is dumb but this check every
[5:42] time this is checked and this is done
[5:43] this is done for some odd reason you get
[5:45] a 90% win rate but when this is okay I
[5:48] can get behind that but outside of that
[5:50] as far as the actual selling process
[5:52] look there no two sales sales are the
[5:54] same ever I don't care if you're selling
[5:56] to the same size company in the same
[5:59] town the same
[6:01] product um for the same price it's still
[6:05] not the same sale because person a may
[6:08] have different outcomes of desired
[6:10] outcomes of differ Siz problems and P
[6:12] person B have different ones and there's
[6:13] no way AI can think like that there's no
[6:15] wayi can do that there's no way that AI
[6:17] can process that information differently
[6:19] every time across whatever so no I'm not
[6:22] a huge fan of AI yeah it was just front
[6:24] of mine today because I know there's a
[6:26] lot of people that hide behind
[6:27] technology and okay it's good for
[6:31] productivity it's good for little hacks
[6:33] here and there but really selling it is
[6:36] a onetoone process it's a it's a human
[6:39] skill it's getting over and picking up
[6:42] the phone and speaking to people it's
[6:43] communication effective communication
[6:45] 101 really I would I yeah a lot of
[6:48] people say I just think that's an easy
[6:49] cop out I don't believe it's about
[6:50] communication I believe it's about
[6:51] critical thinking okay so yes do you
[6:54] need to be able to communicate to do the
[6:56] critical thinking but I think the
[6:57] communication is the highway but I don't
[6:59] think it's the process the process is
[7:01] the critical thinking and that's what
[7:03] Gap sign is all about it's challenging
[7:05] salespeople to do the work up front what
[7:07] is their current state physical little
[7:09] problem impact root cause Etc excuse me
[7:13] sorry right so what is there and then
[7:15] from that where do they want to go and
[7:17] what's preventing them from going there
[7:18] and why do those root causes exist in
[7:19] the first place and how does that
[7:21] translate into Downstream negative
[7:22] effects of the organization what happens
[7:24] if they don't change all of that
[7:26] requires critical thinking it challenges
[7:28] The Bu to critically think it's supposed
[7:30] to bump those up to other priorities it
[7:33] I mean there's so much going on that I
[7:35] think that's why a lot of sales people
[7:36] aren't good at it because you got to be
[7:37] really freaking smart and AI is not that
[7:40] smart yet and it it will be someday I'm
[7:42] convinced of it unfortunately but not
[7:44] for a while so it's not even just about
[7:46] communication it's about critical
[7:48] thinking and problem solving yeah I I
[7:50] agree and there's uh there's different
[7:53] types of people and from what I found
[7:55] the analytical people are really good at
[7:58] the critical thinking
[8:00] you're not like those back in the 1980s
[8:03] those flashy guys and they they have all
[8:07] all
[8:08] those typical sort of sales
[8:10] methodologies that you'd know from the
[8:12] 1980s but everything's changed really
[8:15] it's the analytical thinkers are the
[8:17] ones that will really understand people
[8:21] and unpack the layers until they get to
[8:24] the core of the issue the challenge what
[8:27] it actually might be as a opposed to
[8:30] these flashy little techniques which I
[8:32] don't think I I don't think that works
[8:35] really and it's it's so out of dat so
[8:40] when we have a look at uh because I I
[8:43] love having a look at um all the
[8:45] different ways of doing things solution
[8:47] selling is another uh thing that I've
[8:49] looked into with Mike Bosworth who have
[8:52] had on my show as well love that
[8:55] but I I like some of the principles that
[8:58] you shared within your book and I like
[9:00] the something that you said about not
[9:01] everyone has to be likeable but you have
[9:03] to be credible with what you do and I
[9:06] know um Robert chalini one of the laws
[9:10] of influence of persuation you had to be
[9:12] likable but I suppose if you're credible
[9:15] with that but I want to have your take
[9:17] on that because I think trust
[9:19] credibility knowing your stuff but also
[9:22] KN more about the customer than they
[9:24] know about themselves and the impact
[9:27] that you can give but I'd like to have
[9:28] your take that especially from what's
[9:30] written in your book yeah so so
[9:33] everybody thinks about likeability and
[9:35] it's just not I think that is a I think
[9:37] they're conflating likeability with
[9:40] trust okay yeah um in in in in defining
[9:44] likeability is also difficult how do we
[9:46] Define if you like somebody right like I
[9:48] like you but I just met you you know
[9:49] what I'm saying so right so does I
[9:52] better yet I don't like you I don't
[9:54] dislike you right and I expect the same
[9:56] thing maybe over time we start to like
[9:57] each other or not like each other most
[9:59] most of the time it's in a neutral space
[10:00] it's like like seems like a nice guy how
[10:02] many times you someone say seems like a
[10:03] nice guy but we don't know but what we
[10:06] got to understand is when it comes to
[10:07] buying and getting someone to make a
[10:09] change or or to do something with us is
[10:12] their current environment has to be
[10:13] untenable they have to be unhappy the
[10:15] current envir untenable intolerable
[10:18] frustrating and they have to come to a
[10:19] places says I don't want to be here
[10:20] anymore okay it's the only way you sell
[10:23] somebody something is if that person or
[10:25] that organization comes to the
[10:26] conclusion that that what they're doing
[10:28] now where they're sitting now the
[10:30] results they're getting now the
[10:31] environment they're in can no longer
[10:33] exist they just can't stay there anymore
[10:36] okay and so therefore the only way or
[10:39] the best way to get somebody to
[10:41] recognize that and to help them with
[10:43] that change is if they perceive you is
[10:46] having information skill sets ideas
[10:49] Concepts or whatever that can help them
[10:52] make that change as efficiently and as
[10:55] effectively and as successfully as
[10:58] possible so likability doesn't play a
[11:00] role in that the key element in that
[11:03] process is credibility do I believe you
[11:07] Jason Cooper are are uh have the skill
[11:12] sets have the knowledge have the
[11:14] understanding have the awareness have
[11:15] the expertise right have the tools to
[11:19] get me out of this situation and can
[11:22] help me and the more credible I believe
[11:25] you are the more knowledgeable you are
[11:28] the more credible you are the more I
[11:30] will trust that you can get me out and
[11:33] if I trust that you can get me out and I
[11:35] believe you can do it better than
[11:36] anybody I'm going to go with you
[11:38] regardless of the fact of whether or not
[11:40] I like you yeah yeah and uh on the back
[11:44] of that like the internet is such a
[11:46] powerful tool now they know about you
[11:48] before you even meet them you know
[11:51] there's so much stuff about websites
[11:53] that like let's forget about that like
[11:56] if you want to send if you have a deck
[11:57] send it in advance so there could can
[11:59] read it before the meeting like you
[12:01] don't have to go with a deck like they
[12:03] can find out everything about your
[12:05] company there's so much is being lost
[12:08] with these [ __ ] types of
[12:10] conversations when you meet people
[12:12] because they already know about your
[12:13] company they don't want to know about
[12:15] that they want to know what can you do
[12:18] to help their pain what value can they
[12:20] give you and some of the things you just
[12:23] need to do a lot of due diligence behind
[12:25] that um LinkedIn like to say deep
[12:27] selling which is find out as much as you
[12:30] can about the client uh look there's so
[12:33] much data out there you can do the
[12:35] research and due diligence before you
[12:37] meet the client and have ideas about
[12:39] their pain points but not really know
[12:41] until you ask them some really good
[12:43] questions and keep asking them questions
[12:45] after question and I I love the way that
[12:48] you uh applied and I think this
[12:51] continuous learning and I think that's
[12:55] something that I do all the time and I'm
[12:57] sure you do it like by reading books I
[12:59] read loads and loads of books because I
[13:01] if I get an idea that's going to help me
[13:04] and Propel me to go forward that's what
[13:06] engaged me about your book and that's
[13:09] what I liked about it and I'm gonna
[13:10] borrow quite a bit of that as well thank
[13:13] you very much Keenan uh and uh I like
[13:17] that
[13:18] so I always think people's mindset
[13:22] behind do they want to do it have they
[13:25] got the passion have they got the
[13:26] purpose rather than just being a job I
[13:29] think part of part of this is having
[13:32] that personal impact that you do want to
[13:35] make a difference and make a change
[13:37] always like to have a point based on you
[13:40] as well because you come across extreme
[13:43] successful incredible because you got
[13:44] that lovely book there but what else
[13:47] have you have you done because I'm
[13:50] always curious by that what have I done
[13:53] that's what other things have you done
[13:55] because there's obviously some intrinsic
[13:58] motivation inside of you that's actually
[14:00] propelled you to go forward to make sure
[14:01] that you've have been successful in the
[14:04] past I always like to know what that
[14:06] passion
[14:08] was I don't know I mean
[14:12] I I I I don't even know if I'm answering
[14:15] your question with this but I I have
[14:18] this
[14:19] innate drive that I'm not going to if
[14:22] I'm going to do something and I'm going
[14:24] to commit to it I'm G to be the best at
[14:26] it possible so
[14:29] um and if I can't find the time to be
[14:31] the best at it I'm not going to do it so
[14:35] the an example is I got into golf late
[14:37] in life I well not late in life but I
[14:40] got golf as an adult I think I was
[14:42] 207 28 29 or something when I started
[14:45] golfing and I hated it as a kid like I
[14:48] think I went once or twice it's stupid
[14:49] slow was boring I hated it but as an
[14:51] adult at about 28 I started oh I you
[14:53] know you get one clean hit down the
[14:55] middle like o that was fun so um
[14:59] right around that time I said okay I
[15:00] like this game and so I uh wanted to
[15:03] beat all my it's probably the
[15:04] competition of me I wanted to beat all
[15:05] my friends I wanted to be able to hit at
[15:07] 300 plus yards all the time I I wanted
[15:09] to get into the 70s all these goals like
[15:12] I want to be a good golfer so I would
[15:15] golf with the friends in the weekends
[15:16] but I was the only one who would go to
[15:17] driving range I'd go to the putton I'd
[15:19] get new clubs I you know so all of a
[15:21] sudden I started you know practicing and
[15:23] getting good and I got down to about a
[15:25] 12 and then uh I got married and I'm a
[15:28] ski that's my favorite thing now and the
[15:31] ex didn't like it I I look I'd spend a
[15:33] whole day skiing in the winter I
[15:34] couldn't in the summer then spend a
[15:35] whole day like you know we had three
[15:36] young kids I was like this is this is
[15:38] not gonna fly so iend I stopped doing it
[15:41] and I don't do it anymore BEC because I
[15:43] mean I'll go once in a blue moon for
[15:45] bachelor party but the point being is
[15:47] because I can't commit to being good at
[15:48] it every day I don't do it I just don't
[15:51] do things half fast I'm gonna do it and
[15:52] be the best at it or I'm not going to do
[15:54] it so the point is with with with my job
[15:58] I found selling I found sales and I
[16:00] found leadership and I like doing that
[16:02] stuff and I enjoy it so I did everything
[16:05] I could to be the best at it I read
[16:06] about it I i' you know practice i' pay
[16:09] attention I blogged and so I just became
[16:11] a student and then as a student I became
[16:13] I don't want say a master but I just put
[16:16] all my time into being as good as I can
[16:18] so I mean I think really the lesson
[16:20] there for everybody is if you're not if
[16:21] you're doing something and your
[16:23] objective is not to be the best that you
[16:25] can and or better than everybody else
[16:28] stop [ __ ] doing it I don't know to just
[16:30] stop do something El well that really
[16:33] did answer my question actually and I I
[16:35] just wanted to find out uh what
[16:37] motivates you to do what you do and I
[16:39] think be the best whatever I do to be
[16:41] the best I want to be the best you want
[16:43] to be the best and the top 2% of the 2%
[16:46] in the world they're the people that
[16:48] have that particular mindset to actually
[16:51] have that uh passion the
[16:53] self-accountability rather than waiting
[16:55] other people to do it for you that's why
[16:57] you get all the these fluffy companies
[16:59] they go well go to that course and you
[17:02] get half the participation of people not
[17:04] turning up and go well they're not
[17:06] self-accountable for their own actions
[17:08] and something that I like to say is just
[17:11] go off and read a book go off and go to
[17:13] a course do something to learn to be the
[17:16] best that you possibly can because
[17:18] otherwise you're just going to be one of
[17:20] these people ah no I'm not going to turn
[17:21] up to that yeah nobody likes that nobody
[17:23] likes that look I have this thing called
[17:25] be a one percenter yeah um and it was
[17:28] wearing it in LA once this woman laughed
[17:29] because I love your shirt and I think
[17:30] she thought I meant a 1center from you
[17:32] know the US money perspective okay but I
[17:34] mean what I mean by a 1center is if you
[17:37] can be the top 1% of your career or your
[17:41] profession then you're going to be
[17:43] successful whatever you do and that is
[17:45] achievable being the 1% in a in a
[17:47] profession is achievable so you figure
[17:50] if there's depending on who you ask it's
[17:51] between seven and 10 million or S and 14
[17:54] million salespeople in the United States
[17:56] of the world so let's just go with 7
[17:57] million in the world right if you're the
[18:00] top 1% you only have to be one of seven
[18:04] 70,000 that's seems achievable to me one
[18:07] of
[18:08] 70,000 I could be one of 70,000 of
[18:10] something you know what I'm saying same
[18:12] thing with skiing uh skiing is my
[18:14] passion now and I am absolutely 100,000%
[18:17] no no for fact I'm in the top 1% of all
[18:19] skiers in the world now I'm not a
[18:21] competitive skier right but they make
[18:22] the top 1% of the top 1% you know what
[18:25] I'm saying but as I go on that thing and
[18:27] I see a 100 people better than 100 I'm
[18:29] better about 500 May probably better it
[18:31] times I'm probably one of the best 10
[18:32] people five people on the entire [ __ ]
[18:34] Mountain yeah right so it is achievable
[18:37] as my point if you pick something that
[18:39] you love from work hobby whatever and
[18:42] you say I'm going to be in the top
[18:44] 1% that's a win like that's success
[18:47] that's commitment I totally concur with
[18:49] that that's why I do mountain running
[18:51] and I did an ultramarathon last year
[18:54] first time I ever set a goal like that
[18:56] and I went I'm GNA have to I'm going to
[18:57] do 50k which is 31 miles but I'm want to
[19:01] do it over mountains and I've never run
[19:02] a marathon before that's crazy so this
[19:07] year I have a bigger goal but I want to
[19:09] be the best that I possibly can as much
[19:11] as my body is built for doing it but I
[19:13] want to be the best that I can I did uh
[19:16] break my ankle last year and I did
[19:18] something else to it but in my head I
[19:21] want to be back at it as quickly as I
[19:24] can and again in sales or sales
[19:27] leadership it's no different what can
[19:30] you do to be the very best at what you
[19:32] do so the question I always like to ask
[19:34] uh Keenan is if you are interviewing you
[19:38] what sort of questions would you ask
[19:42] you w I've never had to think about that
[19:45] before never I would probably ask the
[19:47] same questions I Ask of everybody
[19:49] else right so I would ask myself what is
[19:53] my thesis or what is My Philosophy
[19:54] around sales what am I interviewing for
[19:58] Global sales leadership okay yeah so I
[20:01] would ask I would ask me what my
[20:03] leadership style and approach is I would
[20:05] ask me to share any processes or
[20:08] methodologies anything I've created over
[20:09] the years and watch this this is one
[20:11] people no one does no one does this if
[20:14] you're in a leadership position and
[20:16] you're coming to work for me I'm asking
[20:18] you what are some of the processes or
[20:21] methods that you created in some of your
[20:24] past positions that helped you succeed
[20:27] and if they don't have any that they
[20:29] created that's a massive red flag for me
[20:31] because that means the company gave it
[20:33] all to them which means they didn't
[20:35] actually bring any value they would just
[20:37] a a cog you see what I'm saying now they
[20:40] may have been a good leader they may
[20:41] have people to like them but if they're
[20:42] not creating [ __ ] in their position that
[20:44] makes me nervous right because I could I
[20:46] could show you mountains of processes
[20:49] and methods and templates and things
[20:51] that I created in my position to make
[20:54] that job better um I would ask them um
[20:57] how they look at or or once they told me
[21:00] the thesis on leadership then I would
[21:01] ask them how did they apply that or how
[21:02] did they execute on that thesis of
[21:04] leadership because when you're talking
[21:06] about a head of sales or CFO or head of
[21:09] HR head of anything yeah first and
[21:11] foremost it's about leadership that's
[21:13] more important to me than how they their
[21:15] knowledge of HR or how they executed
[21:18] some HR activity right or where they
[21:20] work before I don't give a [ __ ] about
[21:22] that I want to know how you lead because
[21:25] when the minute you say leader your job
[21:27] is get people to do the work through
[21:31] them right you can't do the work you
[21:33] can't go in there and start selling and
[21:35] you got to figure out how you structure
[21:36] it how you hire people what you look for
[21:39] what processes you implement what
[21:40] visions do you set how do you move an
[21:42] organization of people so all of my
[21:45] questions are around how do they do that
[21:49] before I ask questions about well tell
[21:50] me where you've been and tell about your
[21:52] last job and tell me about no I want to
[21:55] know the the thinking behind what you do
[21:58] so I would ask myself all of those types
[22:00] of questions I love that that's a really
[22:03] good answer for complicated any other
[22:05] things that you might ask yourself
[22:06] because I'm always curious because I
[22:09] want to find out and pull out your B
[22:11] failure I ask that all the time what's
[22:12] your biggest failure yeah go on then
[22:14] what's your biggest failure
[22:18] then I have a whole bunch man so I would
[22:22] probably talk about any one of the
[22:24] businesses I started before this I might
[22:26] talk about this one called Buzz it's a
[22:29] I'm it's a long story so I'm not going
[22:30] to buy but it's a it's a SAS company
[22:33] that U I started back in
[22:36] the mid 80s I mean sorry mid 80s mid
[22:39] 2000s like 2005 four six and there um it
[22:42] was a really cool application I got some
[22:45] advice from a VC and I didn't listen to
[22:48] it and if I had i' probably been a very
[22:50] different place right now
[22:53] um um so that was one I'd probably talk
[22:56] about prob yeah I would talk about from
[22:57] business I talk about all the businesses
[22:59] I started and I failed that's what I
[23:00] would talk about yeah I think it's good
[23:03] to have and be honest about them as well
[23:06] because like we've all had failures oh
[23:09] Goda and but it's all how how we've
[23:11] learned from them and maybe what we're
[23:14] going to do slightly differently that I
[23:15] know Marsh Goldsmith talks about feed
[23:17] forward it's what you learned where you
[23:20] are now just don't do it again how are
[23:22] you going to apply it differently next
[23:25] time and how you're going to change the
[23:27] way you do things
[23:28] I have a say I have a saying that says
[23:31] maximize your failure
[23:33] Roi fail if you're GNA fail you might as
[23:36] well get as much out of that failure as
[23:38] possible right yep fail forward that's
[23:41] what I always like to say fail it fail
[23:42] it again the only way we can grow and
[23:44] learn is by failing like we do it every
[23:47] day and I think the more honest you are
[23:50] with yourself and the more that you
[23:52] understand yourself uh rather than just
[23:55] having that failure in your head going
[23:57] oh no not worthy I'm not this that and
[23:59] the other going well what can we do to
[24:01] just
[24:03] change it for the future so probably
[24:06] when you started Gap selling and when
[24:08] you put pen of paper of your methodology
[24:12] I'm sure you had some sort of structure
[24:16] there uh or did you yeah yeah so so Gap
[24:20] something kind of happened by accident I
[24:22] didn't set out to write a book like I
[24:24] told you I had been running a sales
[24:25] consulting firm for quite some time and
[24:27] and I was constantly asked do I do sales
[24:29] training and I said no and they said why
[24:30] not I said because I'm not going to do
[24:31] the same stupid boring sales training
[24:33] everybody else does so I'm not going to
[24:34] repackage other people [ __ ] um so I just
[24:37] did the Consulting piece right um and
[24:40] then it was over the years as I would be
[24:44] coaching so I would do Consulting for
[24:47] organizations and then part of that
[24:48] Consulting i' have to go in and Coach
[24:49] their salespeople or assess their um
[24:52] their pipelines or assess the sales
[24:54] people themselves or help them get deals
[24:55] and stuck or do deal reviews whatever
[24:57] and I would be doing these and I would
[24:59] see Trends or I'd see something happen
[25:01] no just stop and I'd get up and I'd
[25:02] write something on the Whiteboard and
[25:04] then I'd sit back down i' like oh that
[25:06] was good and i' take a picture of it and
[25:07] I store it I'd go write a blog about it
[25:09] that next day so by the time I got
[25:12] around to um to writing the book I had
[25:15] approximately 1,200 blog posts I had
[25:18] constant notes from all my different
[25:20] engagements with people and there was
[25:23] one particular whiteboard session that
[25:27] would be Eureka now there's I don't
[25:29] believe in Eureka generally speaking but
[25:32] there was that trigger point that got
[25:34] Gap selling going and there was a a a a
[25:37] gentleman who sold for one of my clients
[25:40] and we would do deal reviews every
[25:43] Monday and um I would i' ask he say
[25:46] these are gonna close I'm okay why is
[25:48] this one gonna close and he would say oh
[25:49] blah BL what's the problem and he said
[25:52] oh they have distributed systems and I'd
[25:54] like okay and then we'd ask a bunch of
[25:56] other questions then the next op to you
[25:57] would come up and I as what's the
[25:59] problem he said they have distributed
[26:00] systems and all of a sudden I started
[26:02] seeing is this ain't [ __ ] no no no no
[26:04] no no like he kept using the same
[26:07] statement all the time and I got
[26:08] frustrated I said no no no no this is
[26:10] not how this works so I got up and I
[26:12] said listen I want to know what's going
[26:14] on today yeah and I so I wrote current
[26:16] state or current something I was like
[26:18] what's happening today right and I said
[26:20] I want to know like and I wrote down all
[26:21] the things that could be happening and
[26:23] then I said and now that because this is
[26:24] happening and they're pissed off where
[26:26] do they want to go and I wrote down
[26:28] where they want to go and then I said
[26:30] all the things that could happen I said
[26:31] it's your job to uncover what is
[26:34] happening why it's negative blah blah
[26:35] blah and then where they want to go and
[26:37] then I was like so when you're done with
[26:37] that you'll have this Gap that Gap is
[26:40] why they're gonna buy right and that was
[26:42] all impromptu I said so for every
[26:44] conversation here you got to tell me
[26:45] what the Gap is and then that's I took
[26:48] that home looked at that and then boom
[26:50] everything went from there Eureka that
[26:53] Eureka I love that and when you started
[26:56] that blog
[26:58] was there any idea behind the blog or
[27:00] just wanted to do something different do
[27:02] something different just the idea was to
[27:03] try the idea was to build an audience to
[27:05] build reach so that next time I needed a
[27:07] job I didn't have to work so hard the
[27:10] idea was I'm blogging and then all of a
[27:11] sudden I say oh I either want to leave
[27:13] my gig or I get fired or I get laid off
[27:15] whatever I could say hey y'all you've
[27:17] been watch reading my blog I'm looking
[27:19] for a new gig anybody interested anybody
[27:21] know anybody the idea was that have an
[27:22] audience who could have bound it for me
[27:25] that was the only idea in the beginning
[27:28] love it and um I'm always curious about
[27:31] giving people lots of golden nuggets and
[27:34] I think you've done that already but one
[27:36] piece of advice that you could have
[27:38] actually given
[27:40] yourself back in the day when you first
[27:43] started the book and first started with
[27:45] your own bit bit of business a bit of a
[27:47] holistic question what advice would you
[27:49] give me yourself
[27:55] now give myself back then yeah
[28:00] nothing I did it all right Ser did right
[28:03] I did it all right like look I made
[28:05] mistakes yeah right because but but I
[28:08] was on the right track starting the blog
[28:10] was a very smart decision um staying
[28:14] doing it every single day for 712 days I
[28:17] I cons the consistency for two years was
[28:21] critical um building processes that
[28:23] allowed me to write good blog posts is
[28:26] what I so when I I would I built a feed
[28:29] of all of these other sales bloggers and
[28:31] all these other people that wrote about
[28:32] sales Etc and if I got stuck I'd go read
[28:35] that feed and then I would oh that's a
[28:37] trigger or I'm gonna argue that or so it
[28:39] it helped me keep the content going on
[28:42] the days that I didn't have time and I
[28:44] was like traveling or I I would I I
[28:46] taught myself how to provide value in
[28:48] like five sentences and I learned that
[28:50] from Simon no um what's the guy with the
[28:53] glasses uh he was huge in the mid 2000s
[28:55] um bald um not Simon Brian Tracy no no
[29:00] no uh the he's a marketing guy he did
[29:03] Purple Cow um Simon cynic no no um not
[29:07] Simon he did Purple Cow he did um he's
[29:10] he's a marketing guy he has an orange
[29:12] background wears glasses he's bald um oh
[29:15] I can't think of his name oh it'll come
[29:16] to me in a second anyways um he was
[29:19] really good he had a really popular blog
[29:21] at the time and I learned how to like in
[29:23] three or four sentences provide value or
[29:26] questions those filled the days that I
[29:28] knew I couldn't do a huge format so my
[29:30] point in this long diet tribe is I was
[29:32] very deliberate I was very deliberate I
[29:35] was very thoughtful and in spite of the
[29:36] mistakes that is honestly one of this is
[29:39] this period of time over the last 15
[29:41] years has been some of the plac where
[29:43] I've made the best decisions was the
[29:45] most consistent um and so there's
[29:48] nothing i' that's jumping out at me that
[29:50] would say I'd go back and tell myself
[29:52] I'm sure if I watched a movie oh you
[29:54] shouldn't have done that but that the
[29:56] way I process that question about tell
[29:58] yourself means that I saw something
[30:01] looking back I shouldn't have done and
[30:03] there just in that period of time no NOP
[30:06] no no no no I'm just happy with how it
[30:09] went and and the good thing is that you
[30:11] got to where you are
[30:14] now and there's always lumps and bumps
[30:16] in the road
[30:17] so how can people find out more about
[30:21] you Keenan
[30:24] try hence me that's what I did
[30:28] you just put in Keenan yeah and I'm I'm
[30:31] all over the place and if you put in gap
[30:32] selling Keenan you can't miss me so I I
[30:36] just I don't know what to say if you I
[30:37] mean you go to salesgrowth decom there
[30:39] you how's that you got that right there
[30:40] salesgrowth decom or you can find me on
[30:42] LinkedIn Keenan dot I just if you want
[30:45] to find me you can find me it's not hard
[30:47] I think like anything if you want to get
[30:49] hold of anyone in the world uh and
[30:52] especially if you're on selling you can
[30:54] get hold of them there's always Ways and
[30:56] Means to get hold people that's why I
[30:58] like to reach out to people like
[31:00] yourself because I think it's good to
[31:04] understand other people's successes and
[31:07] for the audience is to take some of the
[31:10] points that you've said about the 1% of
[31:13] the
[31:14] 1% and what it takes to be consistent be
[31:18] self-accountable for your own
[31:20] actions go from failure and move forward
[31:23] get over yourself and be the best that
[31:26] you Poss Poss can that's what I've taken
[31:28] out of it today and I think uh how
[31:31] you've put it into practice especially
[31:34] against the uh your personal life with
[31:37] your Sporting Life and I think it
[31:39] there's a congruence there look I think
[31:42] that I I I think
[31:46] the I think the thing that makes me sad
[31:50] about
[31:51] life is that most people just don't take
[31:55] ownership for their life
[31:57] yeah
[31:59] and because of
[32:01] that they don't get the most out of it
[32:05] and it's not just people who commit
[32:07] crimes or get stuck in deadhead jobs I I
[32:11] see in every aspect of life I see highly
[32:14] successful men and women who have
[32:15] horrible marriages who don't have
[32:18] relationships with their kids because
[32:20] they didn't take ownership for that
[32:22] piece they didn't they didn't think
[32:23] about what it meant to be a parent they
[32:25] didn't think about the relationship they
[32:27] wanted with their kids they didn't they
[32:29] didn't stop and say and put in the work
[32:32] and effort to say this is the outcome I
[32:33] want and so therefore this is what I'm
[32:35] going to do and oh by the way this is
[32:36] what it's going to take and these are
[32:38] going to be the challenges and they they
[32:39] didn't do it for their career they
[32:40] didn't do it for their marriages they
[32:42] didn't do it with their parents they
[32:43] didn't do it with their children they
[32:44] didn't do it with anything they loved
[32:47] they didn't pursue their passions they
[32:48] didn't take
[32:49] ownership and then we all wake not me
[32:52] but most people wake up and they're like
[32:55] [ __ ] miserable yep and then what they
[32:57] do is they try to pretend they're not
[32:59] and they try to spin this facade this
[33:02] veneer that they're not and they deny it
[33:04] to themselves but you see it in their in
[33:07] their in their reaction to political
[33:09] events you see it in their reaction to
[33:11] other people you see it in the reactions
[33:13] to their bosses you see in their
[33:14] reactions to how they get their job you
[33:16] see in their reactions when people
[33:18] criticize them or challenge them or
[33:20] suggest they have a problem they built
[33:22] this whole veneer and they know
[33:23] underneath it's nothing but [ __ ]
[33:24] garbage that they just vicious angry and
[33:27] lash out or and it's the whole thing is
[33:29] a [ __ ] show yeah and it's simply because
[33:31] they wouldn't stop and take ownership
[33:34] about who they are and what they want
[33:37] and accept who they are what they want
[33:39] and just own their life and it's sad lot
[33:43] uh but you're absolutely so true that is
[33:45] so true the more you understand yourself
[33:48] the better that you can control yourself
[33:50] and then the better that you can
[33:51] actually go well this is what I want to
[33:53] do this is where I want to see my life
[33:56] it's only
[33:57] I've actually taken control of my life I
[33:59] love what I do now it did take a little
[34:02] bit of a few hurdles and I fell over so
[34:07] much but I just got back up and said
[34:09] well i' have to go into that direction
[34:11] this is what I want to do now so exactly
[34:14] like
[34:15] yourself I it's bit of a zig Ziggler
[34:17] quote is connect your passion to your
[34:19] purpose to your dream I think that's
[34:21] something that I like to live by because
[34:24] I think it's just so
[34:25] true 100% 100% And that ownership comes
[34:28] in because I think a lot of people
[34:30] understand that their passion isn't
[34:32] always going to line up with what their
[34:33] parents expected of them what they
[34:35] thought what they think the world thinks
[34:37] they should do you know what I'm saying
[34:39] like you know I mean it's it's a
[34:40] horrible metaphor but you know I think a
[34:43] lot of us sometimes can have skill sets
[34:45] in areas that we don't like so I was
[34:48] I've always been very athletic I joke
[34:49] all the time I'm one of the most
[34:51] athletic people in the world who was
[34:52] never world class in one thing I was
[34:55] that kid in gym class was best
[34:57] everything you know um I when you put me
[34:59] in a sport I was good at it but I was
[35:01] never world class you one thing right so
[35:05] um one of the things I was really really
[35:07] good at was middle distance running like
[35:09] oh yeah yeah [ __ ] hated it there was
[35:14] nothing you I mean running that
[35:16] 400 I was like I'm not doing the 800
[35:19] you'll be great at I'm like no I'm not
[35:20] touching it I hate it but you're really
[35:22] good I'm like I don't care like I don't
[35:24] care so I'm sure there are people who
[35:26] have move through life and they're
[35:27] really good at something they don't like
[35:28] it but they felt compelled to keep going
[35:30] because they're good people said you
[35:31] should Etc and that's the minute they
[35:33] lose control of their life yeah you
[35:36] gotta do what yeah you gotta definitely
[35:39] gotta do what's good for you and how you
[35:41] feel about doing it yes and take the
[35:44] sacrifices if you're really good at Art
[35:47] and you want to do art [ __ ] do it
[35:48] that if you can't make drive a Mercedes
[35:50] fine don't drive a Mercedes May that may
[35:52] down the road if you stick it and you
[35:53] get good you may but you just can't have
[35:55] everything right just do what you love
[35:58] and you will be happy own your life and
[36:00] you will be happy but if you're doing
[36:02] life because you want the house the car
[36:03] the wife the husband the trips and
[36:05] that's your motivation you will wake up
[36:07] someday and like what the [ __ ] happened
[36:10] yeah I'm miserable yep and you have to
[36:13] make sure that number one at the end of
[36:16] your life that you're happy with what
[36:17] you've done you can look back down your
[36:20] timeline because you do reflect when
[36:21] you're older and say well you know if I
[36:25] did some fantastic stuff and I impacted
[36:28] thousands of people or I didn't and I
[36:31] just did my job rather than what I dream
[36:35] what I love to do what I aspire to do
[36:37] how I'm happy about it so you have to do
[36:40] what's happy for you and this is one of
[36:43] the core things about this podcast today
[36:45] and I think you've actually hit the nail
[36:46] on the head is do your life with passion
[36:51] and purpose to
[36:53] yourself yeah every piece of it every
[36:56] single piece of it it that's the people
[36:57] every piece not just your job not just
[37:00] your hobby but your parenting your spous
[37:03] everything do it with the
[37:05] passion that's absolutely been awesome
[37:09] today and uh I do
[37:11] appreciate the last 40 minutes of this
[37:14] podcast show lots of key points along
[37:17] the way and we share the notes and we
[37:19] share the podcast throughout all the
[37:22] social platforms as normal thank you so
[37:25] much for being my guest on the Global
[37:26] sales leader podcast really appreciate
[37:29] it you got it peace

===FILE=== Xp-o5GubGE8 - Gap Sell Keenan Process Questions Only Get You So Far.txt
https://youtu.be/Xp-o5GubGE8
Gap Sell Keenan! Process Questions Only Get You So Far!

[0:00] Look, I was going to go easy on you, not [0:02] to hurt your feelings. [0:03] YOU [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] IRRITATE THE OUT OF ME. [0:07] I'm only going to get this one chance. [0:10] It's just a feeling I've got. Like [0:12] something's about to happen, but I don't [0:14] know what. [0:16] All I hear go get the money, so I go get [0:18] it. [0:19] I do. [0:22] Hey, hey, hey. WHAT'S GOING ON, PEEPS? [0:25] OH, I KNOW. I know. Here we are. Gap [0:29] cell Keenan 59. It has been a long long [0:34] time since we've done one of these. I [0:35] think people started getting scared. [0:36] That's what I think. I think people [0:38] started getting scared. You're like, I [0:39] can't do this. I'm not going in there. [0:42] But we are doing one. We are working. Uh [0:45] well, wait before I go into that. How [0:47] many of you guys have missed this? You [0:48] guys missed these. You guys missing [0:50] these. I want to do more. before I get [0:52] started. If you have something that you [0:54] think a sales growth company needs any [0:57] product or service and you want to sell [0:59] me, DM me and we will get you on one of [1:03] these. And if you have a product or [1:06] service that we need because YOU FOUND A [1:08] PROBLEM that we have that you can solve, [1:11] we will buy. We will buy. That's the [1:13] cool part. So, if you find a problem [1:15] that we have, we'll buy. If not, you're [1:18] going to get coached by me on how to do [1:19] that better in the future. So, this is, [1:22] for those who don't know, it's a live [1:23] show. It's a live sales call with a real [1:26] salesperson from a real sales c from a [1:28] real company that is a real product or [1:30] service that they want me to buy. And [1:32] so, our boy today is going to have to [1:35] find out if I have any of the problems [1:36] that his product or service can solve. [1:38] And if we do and they're big enough, I'm [1:40] gonna buy his stuff. If not, I'm not. [1:43] And that's how sales works. That's how [1:45] sales works. You got to find a problem. [1:47] We have a cat from uh leader. L E A D R [1:52] no E. Leader. And I am going to invite [1:54] him now. His name is Bryce Clark. Bryce, [1:57] what's going on? Hey, Kenan. [2:00] Glad to be here. Honored to be here. [2:02] This will be fun. [2:03] You excited? [2:05] Oh, I'm jazzed to get to learn from you [2:07] and do this real time. It's awesome. I [2:09] got I got put up here by one of the [2:10] peeps at my company, so I'm hoping we [2:13] can we can do him justice. Shout out So, [2:16] wait. So, someone else had a chance. So, [2:18] like tell everybody the story how you [2:19] got here because in itself and if he's [2:21] listening, he's not going to like what I [2:23] have to say. But he punked out and I [2:25] wouldn't hire I'd fire his ass or I [2:26] wouldn't hire that person. Come on, man. [2:28] We need people with courage who want to [2:29] get [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] done. So, tell everybody how [2:31] you got here. [2:32] One. Yeah. Uh he's great. So, don't [2:34] let's not fire him because I'm sure our [2:37] whole team's watching. Um, but he [2:39] reached out and was prospecting um, and [2:42] doing re I mean reaching out to I think [2:44] it was Brady via LinkedIn and said, [2:46] "Hey, we'd love to demo the product and [2:47] show you what we're doing." Um, and you [2:50] know, see if there's a need. And uh, she [2:52] messaged back and said, "Let's do a [2:53] let's do a live a live call, a live gap [2:56] cell with Kenan." And he to uh be fair, [2:59] he had just joined and he was already [3:02] reaching out to people and it was like a [3:04] week in and I think we were going to do [3:05] this like two three weeks later. and [3:08] he's like he reached out to me said hey [3:09] do you want to do this got this [3:10] opportunity and I said why not let's [3:13] jump in and let's learn from Kenan I [3:15] first I really said who is this Keenan [3:16] guy so I had to watch some of your [3:18] YouTubes and then I found out who you [3:20] were and I was like let's go let's let's [3:22] let's let's take on the challenge so [3:24] that's how it happened [3:25] all right so I'm going to use this a [3:27] moment to coach all sales people in the [3:28] country and sales leaders in particular [3:31] okay now and your boy you don't gonna [3:33] say his name or nothing okay but your [3:35] boy punked out [3:37] And let me show you how. If your [3:40] organization [3:42] had basically said he was ready to start [3:45] calling prospects and clients and [3:48] potential customers to do a demo or to [3:50] get them interested and sell it, then he [3:52] has better be ready to come on and sell [3:53] it in public. But what he did is he gave [3:56] away an opportunity because he was [3:57] afraid of being of doing a bad job, [3:59] afraid of failing. So, I equate that to [4:03] the kid who the coach says, "Hey man, [4:05] you know, our head, our quarterback just [4:07] went down. Get in." HE'S LIKE, "OH, I'M [4:08] NOT READY. I JUST JOINED THE TEAM. I'm [4:10] not ready. You better put somebody else [4:12] in." No way. That is not the way you win [4:17] in life. YOU TAKE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES [4:20] GIVEN TO YOU AND IF YOU FAIL, YOU FAIL, [4:22] BUT YOU TAKE THEM. [4:24] Fail forward. Come on. [4:26] Yes. Yes. And he missed the part that [4:28] you're getting is if he did fail, think [4:30] about how much he would have learned [4:32] directly, but he he didn't. He had a [4:34] chance to go into the game and he didn't [4:36] take it. And that everybody, you can't [4:38] go through life that way. You cannot. [4:40] And Bryce is a nice guy. He's backing [4:41] the dude up. But no, life gives you an [4:44] opportunity whether you're ready or not. [4:46] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] grab it and get the most out of [4:48] it you can. So with that, you're the [4:50] winner winner turkey dinner. Mr. Clark, [4:53] you have 15 minutes to try to find a [4:56] problem that I well that ASG has and [4:59] then uh if you can find that problem and [5:01] show us how you fix it, then we're going [5:03] to buy it. If not, well, it is what it [5:05] is. So, uh do you want to take a minute [5:07] to tell everybody a little bit about [5:08] your product for context? [5:10] Yeah. So, Leader is a people CRM. We [5:12] help business leaders turn managers into [5:14] leaders and employees into rock stars. [5:16] We practically do that through a [5:17] coaching platform for one-on-one [5:19] feedback loops, learning content, and [5:22] goals. [5:23] Okay. [5:24] Yeah. [5:24] So, yes, he did read the book, [5:26] everybody. James Fox, according to him, [5:29] he [5:29] I read it [5:31] on an airplane. It was great. [5:34] All right. Brother, [5:35] awesome. Uh, thanks for jumping on, [5:37] Kenan. I saw that you had recently [5:39] acquired Noted Analytics. Congrat [5:42] Congrats on that. [5:43] Thank you. Thank How's the team? How's [5:44] the team changed uh when you acquired? [5:46] How many more people did you add? [5:48] None. None. We just kept the original [5:50] team. [5:51] Great. How many people total on the [5:52] team? [5:53] Just three. Three developers. [5:54] Three developers uh across a sales [5:58] growth company and an a node analytics. [6:00] How many? [6:01] Just just on the node analytics side. [6:03] You had three. Yep. And how many on on [6:05] your sales growth company? [6:09] Are you at now? [6:10] Nine. 10. Nine or 10? [6:12] Nine or 10. [6:13] Yeah. Great. [6:14] Yep. And uh it sounds like uh Brady uh [6:18] manages everyone. Is that true? Or do [6:20] you have another manager? [6:22] Yeah. Yeah. Me or Brady. We got to get [6:23] better at that. But yeah, Brady and I [6:26] So can you tell me more when you say you [6:29] need to get better better? [6:30] Yeah. So So some people report on a [6:32] hierarchy directly to Brady and some [6:34] report directly to me. But you know, [6:36] we're small company so everybody gets [6:38] involved in providing support and [6:40] direction and sometimes we can confuse [6:42] them because you know they're getting [6:44] feedback or direction from both of us. [6:47] How does that confusion play out in in [6:49] the business [6:51] dayto day? [6:54] Sometimes, you know, I'll I'll provide [6:56] guidance or or direction or feedback and [6:59] then Brady does it and sometimes it [7:01] could be contradictory. [7:05] Sounds like yeah that's uh uh that might [7:08] be hard for your employees on the front [7:10] lines. What if you don't mind me asking [7:13] like what would be what would you say [7:15] right now the effectiveness is of uh [7:19] your structure right now that you have [7:21] with Brady and even as you look to grow [7:23] in the next couple of years. I'd love to [7:24] hear your growth plans, but what would [7:26] you rate the effectiveness of kind of [7:28] the way the culture and and the [7:30] reporting structure is right now on a 1 [7:31] to 10? [7:33] Our culture is a tough culture. [7:35] Tough. Okay. [7:38] Okay. Can you tell me a little bit more [7:39] about that? [7:40] Yeah. So, we have something called the [7:42] freedom box. Okay. So, our culture is [7:44] what we call complete flexibility, [7:46] complete accountability. So, people have [7:49] the ability to to work whenever they [7:51] want from wherever they want. Let's say [7:52] you work for me and you call me up and [7:53] say, "Hey, I'm going to go down to [7:54] Mexico for six months and work." As long [7:56] as you can get your job done, [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] go [7:58] have a great time down to Mexico. I [8:00] don't care. Okay? Um, if you decide to [8:02] me, you call, if someone calls me up one [8:04] day and says, "Hey, I think I'm going to [8:06] try this." Okay? Great. Try it. Do [8:09] whatever you want. Whatever you need to [8:10] do to get your job done, you can do. And [8:13] that's what we call the freedom box. [8:14] Now, it's a box because you can't just [8:16] decide without talking to anybody that [8:18] you're going to spend 200K on something [8:20] like no no that's outside of your box, [8:22] right? But with in the box, they're [8:24] pretty big. Like you can you can do [8:27] whatever you want. You can get whatever [8:29] software you want with a small region. [8:31] You can let's say we have outreach, [8:33] right? You can build your own um uh [8:36] sequences. You can ask someone to build [8:37] the sequences. You can work with Brady [8:39] to build the sequences. You can be [8:40] funny. You can like WE'LL GIVE YOU ALL [8:43] THE FREEDOM IN THE WORLD TO do what you [8:45] want to do, right? However, you are 100% [8:49] held accountable to your decisions. And [8:52] what I have learned in my old AGE IS [8:55] PEOPLE LOVE [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] FLEXIBILITY. THEY [8:58] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] hate accountability. They hate [9:01] it. And when you start saying, "Hey, [9:03] you're not on your numbers. You're not [9:04] delivering this. Well, IT WAS THIS. IT [9:06] WAS THAT." NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, [9:08] NO, NO. It's you because we gave you [9:10] choice. What we don't do is tell you [9:12] what to do and then you don't do it. [9:15] You're like, "Well, it's not my fault. [9:16] He told me to do it. It's their plan. [9:18] It's it's their um sequence. It's their [9:20] this. I I'm just doing what I'm told to [9:22] do." I don't want people to come work [9:24] for us who just do what they're told to [9:26] do. We want people who think, who are [9:27] creative thinkers, who are critical [9:29] thinkers, who want to go out and take [9:32] ownership of the goals and objectives, [9:34] ownership of their job, and then deliver [9:37] on those expectations. So that's the [9:40] culture in the um uh that's the culture, [9:43] excuse me, the culture of the [9:44] organization. [9:45] How you know, how have you seen people [9:47] come in like how do they respond to that [9:48] type of culture? Do you see the like are [9:51] you keeping people and and people love [9:53] that culture? You just shared that it [9:55] sounds don't love that culture. So, [9:57] everybody loves it when they interview. [9:58] Everybody loves it when they interview. [10:01] Everybody, I'd say um some of my team's [10:03] watching. I love what Rachel said. She [10:04] goes, "All the freedom to hang [10:05] ourselves, too." LOL. So, I don't know. [10:08] I would say 50% [10:11] guessing 50% of the people come in here [10:13] and [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] crumble crumble under the [10:17] what they call the pressure because [10:19] literally we believe every we I treat [10:22] this organization like a football team [10:23] or a a sports team. Maybe it's because I [10:25] played sports growing up, right? It [10:28] does. You cannot build a sports team if [10:32] THE COACH HAS TO TELL the the the player [10:36] when to shoot, when to THROW THE BALL, [10:38] HOW TO GET LIKE HE CAN HELP THEM [10:40] PRACTICE AND PROVIDE GUIDANCE, BUT WHEN [10:41] THEY GET OUT THERE, THEY'VE got to do it [10:43] themsucking. AND IF THEY CAN'T CATCH the [10:45] ball, if they can't get open, if they [10:46] can't read the defense, [10:48] it's f So that's how I build it. BUT [10:50] WHAT GUESS WHAT? PEOPLE do not like [10:51] that. It's very difficult because people [10:53] in most of the business world, that's [10:55] not how it works. Yeah. So, you want to [10:58] hire, it sounds like you want to hire [10:59] people that when they come in, uh, they [11:02] can learn the plays and run them and you [11:04] you are counting on them to catch the [11:05] ball and to move the ball down court and [11:07] all that stuff. How in that analogy you [11:09] used, how are you how you are coaching, [11:11] how are you coaching people in practice [11:13] right now? And what's the playbook y'all [11:15] have for people to get ramped up [11:17] quickly? [11:18] Oh, ramped up quickly. Uh, Brady does [11:21] most of the onboarding and she's a [11:22] process fiend. Um [11:26] so uh she breaks it down over I don't [11:30] know maybe three months and dep [11:32] obviously depending on the role right so [11:34] sales is different than than my admin [11:37] which is different than marketing you [11:38] know um which is yeah so based on all of [11:43] that she has a whole process one we [11:46] teach you the the tools so the you know [11:48] whether it's outreach or or salesforce [11:50] whatever so we teach you and get you in [11:52] all the foundational elements Then we [11:54] define your job for you. Then we put you [11:56] in situations to start doing little [11:58] chunks of the job or following people or [12:00] watching people sell. And so we we sort [12:03] of structure it that over a 90 day 30 30 [12:07] to 90 day period we embed you more and [12:09] more into the system and give you more [12:11] and more responsibility and let you run [12:12] on your own. But a lot of that is also [12:14] expecting you to to understand how [12:16] you're going to do it. Like we have [12:17] people build a plan. How are you going [12:19] to do it? You go build that plan. [12:21] So okay. Um so once they're onboarded [12:25] fully um on the administrative side of [12:27] things you know you it sounds like [12:29] there's a couple weeks where they're [12:31] doing trainings or giving coaching like [12:34] how are you guys going about that skill [12:35] training and coaching so that when they [12:37] go out there and you know they're on [12:39] their own you're confident that you know [12:41] they're going to crush it and you're [12:43] giving them the playbook to run off of. [12:45] Like are you guys doing is that look [12:46] like meetings that you're you're adding [12:48] them in a role like [12:49] meetings. Meetings. Uhhuh. Are they [12:52] coming into um like what meetings are [12:55] they coming into? Like [12:58] I thought I answered it. So we'll start [13:00] with they'll come to a meeting where [13:03] they learn how Salesforce works. They [13:05] get logged into Salesforce. We'll walk [13:07] them through the sales process. We'll [13:08] walk them through noted analytics. Then [13:10] they'll come to another sales meeting [13:11] and we'll get them all set up for HR. [13:13] And then they'll come to another sales [13:14] meeting and they'll get uh uh we'll [13:17] teach them what the GIT is, goal, [13:19] strategy, tactics, initiatives, right? [13:21] Then we'll set set something out, take [13:23] your first shot at, then they'll come [13:24] another meeting to go over their [13:25] initiatives. Wait, Brady says everyone [13:27] loves the idea of being able to try [13:28] their ideas, but most have never Okay. [13:30] Yeah. Anyway, sorry. Side. So, yeah. So, [13:32] we have a list of stuff that we believe [13:34] that they need to know, experience, get [13:36] logged on to, and then meetings will be [13:38] set up through the entire onboarding [13:40] process to get them up to par. [13:44] Gallup shares that that 70% of someone's [13:47] engagement and ultimate performance on a [13:49] team is directly tied to the [13:51] relationship they have with their leader [13:53] and the coaching they're getting in that [13:55] relationship in light of how they're [13:56] wired. [13:57] Kate, I agree with that. [13:58] Do you do you prescribe to that? [13:59] Yeah. Yep. [14:00] How are how are you how are you or [14:02] Brady? You shared that you you know some [14:04] people report to go to you, some people [14:06] go to her. There's a mixed communication [14:08] there. How are and then you you shared [14:10] the onboarding of all the administrative [14:12] stuff that you guys do, get them on [14:13] Salesforce, you know, payroll, all that [14:16] kind of stuff. But once they're fully [14:18] ramped up with those tools and things, [14:19] how are you doing ongoing coaching and [14:21] development if you believe that 70% of [14:23] their engagement is tied to that [14:25] relationship that you have with them? [14:26] Yeah. So, so that's a great question and [14:28] and I'm going to throw you a bone. Now, [14:30] you're asking a lot of process questions [14:32] right now and you are approximately [14:34] five mi 10 minutes in. You're [14:36] approximately wait. Yeah, you're [14:37] approximately 10 minutes in and you've [14:39] asked a lot of process questions. So, [14:41] you haven't found a problem. This is [14:42] what salespeople do. You start asking [14:45] all these process questions. How do I do [14:46] this? How do I do this? How do And you [14:48] don't get me exploring problems. So, I'm [14:51] going to answer your question, but if [14:52] you don't get me exploring problems, [14:53] I can I can I can redirect. Yep. [14:55] Okay. So, the answer to your question [14:57] is, and the bone I'm going to throw you [14:59] is from an execution standpoint, we're [15:01] not as good at this as we should be, but [15:03] we're still fairly decent because we're [15:04] a small company. We have a management or [15:07] coaching process. Okay? It's called uh [15:10] observe, describe, prescribe, which [15:14] means our job is to observe the people [15:16] that worked with us, see what they're [15:18] doing, see how they're doing their job, [15:20] see how they're executing against their [15:21] job, see how they're engaged with the [15:22] other boys. We watch them do their job. [15:24] The observed piece. Then we get with [15:26] them and we describe what we've seen. [15:29] Okay? We describe you did this well. um [15:32] you're doing this, you're doing that, [15:34] blah blah blah blah. And then we [15:36] prescribe alternatives to help them do [15:39] their job better. So in my case, for [15:41] instance, most of it [15:44] um Bryce is calm like a stone cold [15:46] killer. That's good. Right. Most of [15:49] because we're small, most of our our um [15:52] our coaching is done um asynchronous. So [15:56] particularly like I you know I coach the [15:58] sales team more than anybody else, [16:00] right? So because I'm interacting with [16:02] them, because I use nodeed analytics and [16:03] node analytics lets me see how they're [16:05] doing the job and opportunities get into [16:07] the system etc. I coach them immediately [16:09] whether it be on the deals, whether it [16:11] be on their performance, whether it be [16:14] on their um long-term growth goals. So [16:16] it's very asynchronous for me. Brady's a [16:19] little more structured. No, I guess [16:21] she's pretty asynchronous as well now [16:22] that I think about it because we work so [16:25] inter in in uh we're always talking and [16:28] engaging with each other. There's lots [16:29] of observable moments. There's lots of [16:31] opportunities to coach. [16:34] It's zooming out a little bit then. Um, [16:40] you shared that the the accountability [16:42] right now is the biggest pain point that [16:44] people don't want to be held [16:46] accountable. Am I barking up the right [16:47] tree there? [16:48] Yeah. [16:50] um what is happening in the business due [16:54] to a lack of people wanting to be held [16:56] accountable and what do you feel like [16:58] causing that? I think so when pe it's [17:01] it's really interesting. That's an [17:02] interesting question. [17:05] Our turnover happens in the first 90 to [17:09] 120 days every time. And it happens [17:11] because they crumble under the pressure [17:14] of being able to handle and be [17:17] accountable to themselves. Those who [17:20] stay in that first 90 to 120 days, they [17:24] have a shaky moment and we and through [17:26] the observe, observe, describe, [17:28] prescribe environment, we give them our [17:30] feedback and they take it and they [17:32] adjust, they take it, they adjust, they [17:34] struggle and boom, they come out the [17:35] backside like a flower. Like literally [17:38] the people who get past that period of [17:41] time where they learn to be accountable [17:43] for themselves. They learn to realize [17:45] that no one's coming. They learn to [17:46] build their own approaches and methods. [17:48] THEY LEARN BECAUSE LOOK, WE HIRE [17:49] EXPERTISE. WE'RE NOT HIRING PEOPLE FRESH [17:51] OUT of college. You have to teach them [17:52] how to do everything. We're we're hiring [17:54] people who say they're already sales [17:55] people. We're hiring people who say [17:56] they're already trainers. We're hiring [17:57] people who say they're already [17:58] marketers, right? So we expect them to [18:01] be able to do their job. So if they come [18:03] out the backside, they're like gappers [18:06] for life, man. They're ASGers for life. [18:08] They freaking love the organization. [18:10] They get excited about the organization, [18:11] etc. They don't. They're very upset and [18:13] frustrated. Ah, not always, but they're [18:15] just frustrated like, "This isn't for [18:16] me. I'm not going to make it." Blah, [18:17] blah, blah. So, there's your answer. [18:20] Okay. And how many people in the first [18:22] 90 days are not moving through? [18:25] We're too small. We don't hire that [18:26] many. Come on, man. Now, you got to be [18:28] thinking. I just told you I'm like nine [18:29] people plus node analytics. I mean, [18:32] think, think, think. We don't We don't [18:33] hire that many people. [18:36] Yeah. Um, [18:39] how are you measuring the effectiven [18:41] Okay, you said that when people come on [18:43] through the 90 days, you don't hire a [18:45] lot of people that often. Um, [18:47] sorry, you asked another question. [18:48] Sorry, you should have held me [18:49] accountable. You asked me, um, [18:52] how do you measure? [18:53] No, before that you said, um, uh, oh, [18:56] shoot, I just remembered. You asked me, [18:57] oh, what the problem? [18:58] What's causing what's causing it? Yes, [19:01] very good. That's what's causing it. [19:02] It's our hiring. we're not putting [19:04] enough attention and we're not paying [19:06] enough attention to who we're hiring and [19:09] we're not doing a good enough job to get [19:10] them to actually understand what the [19:13] freedom box looks like. [19:14] Okay. So, the lack of accountability [19:16] problem that you mentioned is only on [19:18] the front end when people are coming [19:20] through the first 90 days. Once they [19:22] make it through the 90 days and it's a [19:23] breakthrough, you've now kept people who [19:26] do want to be held accountable and who [19:27] do like the freedom model. [19:30] Yes. Very much so. very much so. [19:34] Okay. Are and how are you measuring like [19:39] those people moving forward as far as [19:41] like their effectiveness on the team, [19:43] their performance [19:44] through the freedom box. I told you [19:46] through the through the freedom [19:47] freedom box. Yeah, we just did a QBR. We [19:49] have a thing called what's your job? So [19:51] when we have conversations with [19:52] everybody, whether it's monthly or or [19:54] asynchronously or on the quarterly QBRs, [19:57] it's what's your job? Everything's [19:59] measured against what is your job? Are [20:01] you delivering on your job? One of the [20:04] things we do here that we spend a lot of [20:05] time on is making sure that there is [20:07] nobody doing a job that can't be [20:09] quantified. Now, a lot of people [20:10] listening to get a little upset or [20:12] pissed off because what I'm about to [20:13] say, but here's the deal. I don't view [20:15] people from a pay perspective any [20:17] different than a piece of software or a [20:19] tool. Right? If I bought a car and that [20:22] car only started 75% of the time, I [20:25] don't care if it's a Porsche or not, I'm [20:26] not going to be happy, am I? Right? Same [20:29] thing with a with a person. If I hire [20:30] you to be my marketing person and you [20:32] only hit my marketing numbers 60% of the [20:33] time, I may love you to death and [20:35] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] drink beers WITH YOU, BUT I AM [20:36] NOT getting my return on investment. So, [20:38] I have no [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] time for that. Do you [20:40] see what I'm saying? So, that's how we [20:41] treat people here. Now, in order to [20:43] treat people like that, you have TO GIVE [20:44] THEM ALL THE FREEDOM IN THE WORLD TO [20:46] make their own choices, right? So, we do [20:51] that. So, the way we measure it once [20:52] they're on is we measure it against your [20:55] job. Everybody knows what they are. They [20:57] know what they are quarterly. They know [20:58] what they are monthly. They know what [20:59] they are yearly. And so we measure [21:00] against the job. Once we know how you're [21:02] doing against the job, if you're doing [21:03] great, we leave you alone. IT'S A GREAT [21:05] JOB. WELL DONE. WHAT CAN YOU NEED FROM [21:07] US? DO YOU have everything you need? I [21:08] ask that question a lot. Do you have [21:10] everything you need to do your job? Yes. [21:13] Great. Have at it. So that's how we [21:16] manage it. And then we literally I told [21:18] you right before this call started, I [21:19] just ended our Q1 QBR. Everybody [21:22] announced what they did. Did they make [21:24] it? Did they not? What did they learn? [21:25] What worked? What didn't? What are you [21:26] going to do next quarter? We all did [21:28] that. We know where everybody sits. [21:30] Yeah, [21:32] I I hear you. One of the one of the [21:34] things that um I would just want to get [21:37] alignment on you in kind of this [21:39] conversation is do you believe that when [21:42] we develop and equip our people and in [21:47] this case um even Brady as as [21:49] I'm going let you ask that question in a [21:50] second, but I'm going to bail you out in [21:52] a minute because you're off track. Now, [21:54] who's Holly? Is she your manager? [21:57] Holly. Uh, she she's one of my leaders. [22:00] Okay. Holly, I love where you're going, [22:01] but your old school girl. She just went [22:03] out and said turnover cost at a minimum [22:05] six months of the person's salary. Yeah, [22:06] no [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] I know that. But that's not the [22:09] problem I have. Right. So, you have to [22:11] find out what problem I have. So, I [22:15] don't want the turnover. She's right. [22:16] But to throw that stat out does nothing [22:18] because you asked a really good [22:20] question. And that's what's causing it. [22:22] it's causing it is we believe before [22:24] they get hired, right? [22:26] And and we and we can't help you with [22:28] that part. So, I've got to redirect or [22:30] at some point I've got to say, Kenan, [22:33] we're not a good fit. Keep crushing it. [22:37] You know, let's end the problem. So, you [22:40] spent a lot of time going into process. [22:42] So, everybody listening for because now [22:44] he's passed his 15 minutes. Now, we're [22:45] in coaching time. I'm g let you keep [22:46] going, but we're in coaching time. [22:48] Yeah. Yeah. [22:48] This is what sales people do all the [22:50] time. They get stuck in how we do [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [22:54] how we coaching, what is our processes, [22:57] how do we engage people. You s kind of [23:00] went to the idea of, you know, um, of [23:02] people leaving, but you kind of went [23:03] back to how and then you were about to [23:05] tell me some stat about something. You [23:08] need to ask yourself, what problem does [23:11] leader solve? You must have three or [23:14] four business problems you solve. What [23:16] are they? [23:17] Yeah. Uh, improving employee engagement. [23:20] Right there. Stop. Nope. Sorry, bro. [23:22] Everybody listening and I see some names [23:24] who've been on here for a while. I have [23:26] said this 10 bazillion cazillion [23:29] trillion times. [23:32] Say when I ASK WHAT PROBLEM DO YOU SOLVE [23:34] AND you speak to an outcome or a [23:37] solution, you have not addressed the [23:40] problem. A problem is something that [23:43] exists today, not something you deliver [23:47] on tomorrow. So, [23:49] so would low productivity be would low [23:51] productivity of employees be a problem? [23:53] Okay. Yes. If you say [23:55] I I just need to re inverse that. Uh [23:58] high cost of turnover problem. Um glass [24:03] 100%. [24:04] Bad glass door ratings. [24:07] Say that last one again. Wait, what? [24:08] Um may not be relevant to you, but bad [24:11] glass door ratings would be a problem. [24:13] Yes. Yes. No, no visibility for you into [24:16] the team's health and and how they're [24:18] performing and accountability pieces is [24:20] a problem. [24:20] Okay. So, wait. So, so, so, so that's [24:22] good. Yes, class would be a problem. No, [24:24] I'm helping you out. The one you said a [24:26] second ago about no visibility. That's a [24:28] root cause. [24:30] That's a root cause that goes back to [24:32] one of those problems you just said [24:33] before. So, two business problems is low [24:36] productivity, right? [24:37] High turnover resonated with you. [24:40] And high turn Yes. High turnover. Yep. [24:42] Yep. Yep. And what was the other one you [24:44] said? [24:45] Um you said visibility uh turnover. [24:50] Yeah. Yeah. You said that's oh uh [24:51] unhealthy culture, bad culture. [24:54] Okay. Yep. Now how would you define what [24:57] but now that I think that [25:00] Yeah, we have a way to define it but I I [25:02] would be asking you how do you measure [25:04] you know what's the health of your your [25:05] team? how do you measure uh you know the [25:07] culture and the health and like what but [25:09] you know that I would be digging in with [25:11] you of like how you're going about that [25:13] and then you would probably be on your [25:15] back but like I don't know how to [25:16] measure that other than what I'm hearing [25:17] through the great brine and then I would [25:19] say well if you don't know what's going [25:20] on how is that what are the ripple [25:22] effects that's having on your team and [25:24] how are you able to you know and we can [25:25] kind of get into it [25:26] so so if you go back to bad culture [25:28] that's also a root cause so you have two [25:30] root causes right now right you have [25:31] lack of visibility and then the bad [25:33] culture the way you demonstrate bad [25:35] culture culture is what? Low employee [25:38] internal employee satisfaction, high [25:40] turnover. Right? See what I'm doing [25:42] here? So, so there's another business [25:44] problem you could say you solve is low [25:46] employee ter uh low employee [25:48] satisfaction. [25:49] Yeah. Okay. [25:50] Right. So, how many did you write them [25:52] down? So, how many do we have right now? [25:53] Low [25:54] employee satisfaction, [25:56] high turnover, [25:58] low productivity. So, in that one we [26:00] could probably call not meeting your [26:02] performance goals. So from that one you [26:04] make slash not meeting all your [26:05] performance goals. And what was the [26:06] other one? [26:08] Um glass door. [26:10] Oh yeah. Poor glass door reviews. Yes. [26:13] Yes. So or you could also call that poor [26:15] brand recognition but yes Glass Door is [26:17] an example of that. [26:19] Yeah. We're taking some notes. That's [26:21] good. [26:22] Okay. So now what Oops. Sorry. So now [26:25] what you do is if you have those five [26:27] and I hope Holly's paying attention [26:28] because she's gonna have to coach you to [26:29] this. Right. If you now have a [26:32] conversation, you should have went to [26:34] one of those early, [26:38] right? You you [26:40] Yeah, I was trying to go I was trying to [26:41] ask about turnover stuff, but it it [26:43] sounds like you don't hire enough pe [26:44] people for that to be really a problem. [26:46] So, that one's out of the out of the [26:48] loop. Low glass door ratings. I didn't [26:51] go because I looked at you don't have [26:52] any glass door ratings, I don't think. [26:55] Good. Good. [26:56] That's out of the case. Uh low [26:57] productivity. Sounds like you're driving [26:59] performance like no other. So, um I you [27:02] know I'm I have more questions maybe [27:04] around that. It sounds like the people [27:06] that make it through are like freaking [27:08] rock stars is what you're telling me [27:10] because they've made it through the the [27:11] you know boot camp of Kenan. And then [27:14] the last one was not meeting performance [27:16] goals which could be an accountability [27:17] thing that we could go into. [27:20] Those are my thoughts. Yeah. [27:21] Yep. So I think I think there's two half [27:24] areas that you could have dug deeper, [27:26] right? one not meeting performance [27:28] goals. You could have dug deeper there, [27:30] right? And also, I think you could have [27:32] dug dug deeper on that last one. What [27:34] was it again you called it? Um [27:37] the uh not meeting performance goals, [27:39] low productivity, poor glass floor [27:41] rating, high turnover. Is that what [27:42] you're talking about? [27:43] Yeah, I think you you sort of combined [27:45] the performance goals in and and act uh [27:48] and productivity, right? So, you might [27:51] have been able to ask some more [27:52] questions around that, right? So, you [27:54] might have asked, okay, what are you [27:56] doing to track? Now, I don't know what [27:58] your product does. I haven't seen it, [27:59] but based what you think your product [28:01] does, you might have been able to ask [28:02] some questions about um are there areas [28:05] within the process or could you walk me [28:07] through the process when someone's not [28:09] being accountable, right? What do you do [28:11] to either document that? What do you do [28:13] to help them see what you're trying to [28:15] do? Like, you could have walked through [28:16] some very specific [28:17] to your point, that's a process [28:18] question, and I need to get back to [28:20] uncovering the problem that you would [28:22] have. So you're saying once I find that [28:24] problem go into those process questions [28:26] but how would I [28:27] would be a recommendation on the finding [28:29] your problem when it comes to those [28:31] other two pieces that you might have a [28:33] yes so or you know that XYZ creates a [28:38] problem a like so I know watch this I [28:42] know the process of reading the defense [28:44] wrong or better yet not being able to [28:47] see the linebacker drop into the into [28:50] the slot position right after the snap [28:53] leads to a higher interception rate. [28:57] Yes. [28:57] Right. So, I know those two correlate. [29:00] So, rather than just asking big broad [29:02] process questions, I might ask the [29:03] questions, hey, on traditional second, [29:06] third downs, when you're looking at a [29:08] dime defense, do you find that the [29:10] quarterback has a tendency to miss what [29:12] THE LINEBACKER IS DOING? YEAH. YEAH. [29:14] YEAH. WHEN THAT HAPPENS, DO YOU FIND [29:15] THAT your interception rate goes up by X [29:17] percent or you throw more interceptions? [29:19] Ye damn straight. Yes. It's driving us [29:22] crazy. Guess what you just did? See what [29:24] I did there? I know these process [29:27] questions or these process failures lead [29:30] to this problem. So, I am going to ask [29:32] the questions to see if I can get you to [29:34] see if you have that problem. [29:37] Okay. [29:38] See what I did there? [29:39] Yeah. You're you're a wizard. [29:44] It's like you wrote the wrote the [29:45] methodology or something. It's it's [29:47] wild. [29:47] I know. It's crazy, right? It's crazy. [29:50] So, here's my two cents. Now, I'm gonna [29:52] let you I'm gonna let you go on and talk [29:54] to Brady, but you need to be prepared, [29:57] okay? But I'm going to tell you what I [29:58] think. [29:59] I think that there might be some value [30:04] to your offering if we were bigger. We [30:08] um hired more people [30:12] um and our business and we had Yeah, we [30:15] just had bigger and had more people and [30:16] we had we hired more people. I think an [30:19] organization of our size currently, even [30:22] if your product works really well just [30:26] is too small to maximize the value. [30:30] Yeah, your pro your problem's not big [30:32] enough at current state to get value out [30:34] of it where in where I could have gone [30:37] into and I was saving that for future [30:39] state, but go into hey, what does the [30:41] next couple years look like for growth [30:42] goals and and the amount of people [30:43] you're going to hire and are you setting [30:45] your systems up for place for that [30:46] growth? But I yeah, we didn't get there. [30:49] So I I I align with you on that that [30:51] your your problem might not be big [30:52] enough. But if you do plan to double, [30:55] you know, in the next couple of years, [30:56] uh next year Oh, yeah. [30:57] I would love to hear what that that you [30:59] know what your take is there, but we we [31:02] might be able to help and serve you on [31:04] that process. [31:04] Plan is to double. Now the biggest part [31:07] of our growth is coming from our um um [31:12] certified trainers. So we have we've [31:14] made a business decision that we are not [31:16] going to hire five 10 20 30 trainers [31:19] internally but we're actually licensing [31:21] the gaps approach and method. We train [31:24] them ourselves. They go into the market. [31:26] So technically speaking they're under [31:27] the umbrella but they're all [31:28] independent. They manage themselves. [31:30] They take care of themselves. So [31:31] I see. [31:32] So yes. So as we grow it'll be more from [31:34] an operational standpoint to support all [31:38] of those people in the field. Yeah. [31:40] Right. So I'm going to make this up. We [31:41] could have a team of 50 people in five [31:43] to six years, but 30 of them are [31:45] independent contractors out there doing [31:47] the other 20 internally are just the [31:48] operating staff to make sure they're [31:50] wildly successful. [31:51] Right. Absolutely. And if I, you know, I [31:54] business owner in a past life, like I [31:56] would want to replicate Brady's, you [31:59] know, everywhere, uh, you know, as you [32:01] guys scale up. And so that's, you know, [32:03] having a system or having a framework, [32:05] you know, that you can live out the [32:06] framework that you currently have, but [32:08] actually put it in a in a platform to [32:09] help these new people that are joining [32:12] live out with their teams, I think could [32:13] be a value. It says an unstable internet [32:15] connection. It's probably I'm just [32:17] unstable and I'm computer. You got me. [32:20] Fine. Yeah. So, here's here's an angle [32:21] you might want to take if I'm selling [32:23] you with Brady, right? We talked about [32:25] the difficulty that people have with our [32:28] freedom culture. Okay. Brady said [32:30] something a minute ago. Um, let me see. [32:33] Hold on. Way to go. She said, "Yes, so [32:35] many sales people go to the process." [32:36] Oh, no, that's not it. She said [32:38] something about him struggling. Um, [32:40] anyways, doesn't matter. I would I would [32:44] I would spend some time talking with her [32:46] and seeing if we're doing anything wrong [32:49] to help people embrace that culture. [32:52] Right? So, we believe and we're trying [32:54] like bandits to make people successful [32:58] in that environment. when they're not, [32:59] we chalk it up to, well, they just can't [33:00] handle the the pressure of [33:02] accountability. There may be something [33:03] we're doing wrong in that process that [33:05] you can fix. I don't know, [33:07] right? Yeah. [33:07] I don't know. And depending on the price [33:09] of your your offering and depending on [33:11] the complexity of making it work, that [33:13] might be a big enough problem for us to [33:15] to give it a shot. But I I think you [33:19] if you want to talk to Brady for 30 [33:21] minutes and change some of the questions [33:24] you're asking and dig in deeper um [33:27] around some of that stuff, I think [33:29] you've earned it, right? I'm not sure [33:30] we're a fit to be honest with you, but I [33:32] think we've earned it. I mean, you've [33:33] earned [33:34] Well, I appreciate that. And yeah, I [33:36] think probably some value in digging [33:39] into the current framework of bringing [33:41] people through the like into the culture [33:44] like is that is the the freedom model is [33:46] that the best way to serve you guys? Do [33:48] you believe moving forward? [33:50] Yes, you do. [33:51] Yes. Yes. Someone asked here maybe you [33:53] have the wrong model or system. Listen, [33:56] this is why I work for myself. Okay. I I [33:59] I when I believe something I stand [34:01] behind it and it would take a I'm not [34:04] saying never. I never say never, but it [34:05] would take a monumental force to make me [34:09] believe that there is a better structure [34:11] than the full empowerment of people. [34:16] Like I I believe that is the only model [34:18] that works, the full empowerment. What [34:20] I'm struggling with or the battle for my [34:22] organization is how many organizations [34:24] truly in the rest of the world treat you [34:27] with full empowerment. They don't. From [34:29] the day we go to school all the way to [34:31] almost all the jobs we have, they really [34:33] constrict your level of freedom of [34:34] thinking. They constrict your [34:36] empowerment, right? And so people are [34:38] taught and have learned that they are [34:41] safe in that environment. I didn't it [34:43] wasn't my idea. I wasn't told to do it. [34:46] I'm just going to do it enough to do [34:47] that that that they think I'm doing a [34:49] good job and I'm meeting their [34:51] expectations and I'm safe. [34:53] A fully encountable environment where [34:55] it's basically a bunch of little [34:57] entrepreneurs running everywhere to a [34:59] lot of people is not safe. [35:02] They don't like the idea that they're [35:04] under a spotlight. They don't like the [35:05] idea that they have to tell people when [35:07] they're not meeting their numbers. They [35:09] don't like the idea of having to pick [35:10] their numbers because if they fail at [35:11] their numbers and everybody sees them, [35:13] that's hard for a lot of people. [35:15] Yeah. [35:16] So, yeah, you ain't going to get me to [35:17] change the culture. [35:18] Yeah. So then it's it's living that out [35:20] as you guys continue to scale and and [35:23] implementing the freedom model across [35:24] the teams and holding people accountable [35:26] to those outcomes, but also developing [35:29] and and equipping them to [35:31] hit those outcomes that you guys desire [35:33] because people want to be developed. We [35:34] believe we believe that people you know [35:37] want to performance as a business owner [35:40] that's you know productivity outcomes [35:42] all those things but people also want to [35:44] be in a place where they feel it's my I [35:46] you can disagree but they want to be in [35:48] a place where they feel like they're [35:49] supported by their leaders [35:51] you already know that I believe that [35:52] because what did I tell you how many [35:53] people do you talk to actually have an [35:55] actual coaching framework how many [35:57] organizations [35:59] uh they have a makeshift one everyone [36:03] does it differently every Every manager [36:04] on their team does it differently. [36:06] Yeah, but I told you what ours is. What [36:07] is ours? [36:08] Yeah. Uh, it's the freedom model. So, do [36:10] I [36:10] No, it's not. No, it's not. What is our [36:12] coaching? See, I told you we actually [36:14] have a coaching framework. I said that. [36:16] Oh, I MISSED THAT. [36:18] OH, THAT'S A SHAME. NO, when I tell you, [36:21] you're gonna be like, I remember. What [36:22] is it? [36:23] I probably will when when you tell me. I [36:25] I said we have a very specific coaching [36:27] model. Observe, [36:30] describe, prescribe. [36:33] Right? So then we um so what the idea is [36:37] you watch them do something then you [36:39] describe what you see. Right? Then you [36:43] um uh uh describe something else. I mean [36:46] prescribe something else. Right? Then [36:49] they have to then you have to see did [36:51] they uh acknowledge it right? Did they [36:53] embrace it? Did they understand it? And [36:54] then they can they perform it apply it [36:56] absorb and apply. Can they did they [36:58] absorb what you said? And then are they [37:00] applying it? Then you watch them and you [37:02] watch, rinse, repeat. So very important [37:04] to listen. So we have a very specific [37:06] man um coaching approach. Very specific. [37:09] That that that help that jogs my memory. [37:11] Yeah. Do do I hear that people have that [37:13] uh often on calls? No. [37:15] Okay. So the reason I brought that up is [37:16] you started preaching to me telling [37:18] don't tell the importance [37:20] ask. We got to ask. [37:21] Yes. You were preaching to me the [37:23] importance of of feedback and the [37:26] importance of developing people. You [37:28] wouldn't shouldn't have to do that if [37:29] you know we've literally built a [37:32] coaching process. Observe, describe, [37:34] prescribe, absorb, and apply. Then we [37:38] must already be on the same page, right? [37:40] Yeah. You already have that that belief. [37:43] Yeah. So So you're selling me on [37:44] something I'm already believing. So what [37:45] you got to find out is where am I [37:46] failing? So um with that, I'm going to [37:49] let you go. But here's this. Also, Holly [37:51] Holly Holly Holly, she said she answered [37:54] the question the same way you do about [37:56] the problem and she said something about [37:57] we empower people to grow because of [37:59] leaders. Some tagline [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] Guys, go [38:02] do a pick. Go into the book gap selling. [38:04] Go get the pick problem identification [38:06] chart and build on the problems, right? [38:09] Go find the problems you solve. But I [38:10] think we found them. I think you only [38:11] solved those four problems and that's [38:13] it. [38:13] Yeah. [38:14] So, if someone doesn't have one of those [38:15] problems, you can't sell to them. [38:17] All right. [38:18] We got some work to do, Kanan. [38:19] Appreciate it. That's all right, baby. [38:20] But look, you got Brady on the You got a [38:22] chance with Brady. So, set time up with [38:23] her. See what she thinks. [38:25] And uh [38:26] dude, I'm proud of you. You did a fairly [38:29] decent job. You did a fairly decent job. [38:30] Appreciate that. Thanks, man. [38:31] All right, watch this real quick. What's [38:33] the one thing you got to do different? [38:35] Uh, ask don't tell. [38:37] Okay, I'll go with that. [38:39] Okay, but there's one big one. One gap [38:41] cell thing you didn't do well. [38:42] Well, I got got to go straight to [38:44] problem and not to process. [38:48] Y [38:49] faster. Beautiful, baby. [38:51] Come on. Thanks, man. It was awesome, [38:52] brother. Good luck to you. [38:53] Appreciate it. Hey, more people need to [38:55] do this. [38:56] There you go. Next person. Yeah. [38:58] Yes. [38:59] Absolutely. [39:00] All right, baby. Good luck. [39:01] All right. Thanks, man. See you. [39:04] All right, everybody. I like doing [39:06] these. I don't get to do them enough. I [39:07] like doing these. So, give Bryce some [39:10] love. He did a good job. Um, look, he [39:13] put in the effort. His his he was, how [39:15] do I say this? he was um tracking in the [39:17] right direction. Very rarely does [39:19] someone going to nail these out of the [39:20] out of the gate. So, I was proud of the [39:21] effort he put in. He he didn't do all [39:23] the stupid stuff a lot of other people [39:24] did. So, um I got to be semi- nice to [39:27] the guy, right? And he earned himself a [39:29] shot to talk to Brady and and go a [39:30] little deeper and see if this is [39:31] something that we that we could use. I'm [39:33] not sure there is. I think he he got it [39:35] towards the end. The problem just isn't [39:37] big enough for the size of this [39:38] organization. I don't think we fit their [39:39] ICP. I could be wrong, but uh there you [39:42] have it. For everybody else listening [39:43] and for you Holly as well, take a minute [39:46] to ask yourself what problem or problems [39:50] does your product or service solve? And [39:54] if you start with, we help companies do [39:56] blah blah blah, we accelerate blah blah. [39:59] If it starts with some [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] that [40:01] drives you to the future, you're off. [40:03] But if it starts with we help companies [40:05] who are struggling with we help [40:07] companies who are unable to we help [40:09] companies who are experiencing negative [40:11] now you're in the right direction. Okay. [40:14] It's about where they currently the [40:15] current problems they have today. That's [40:17] what you all fix. So with that thanks [40:19] for coming. If you want to gapell me DM [40:22] me on LinkedIn at Kenan DM me. I will [40:25] get you on the show. And if you have a [40:27] product or service that can solve one of [40:29] our problems, if you can find a problem [40:30] that I have, but we have at ASG and you [40:33] can solve it, we'll buy it. If not, [40:37] you get my coaching. So, it's a win-win. [40:39] OH, WITH THAT, WE'LL GET IT TO I forgot [40:41] to announce Bryce. I hope you're paying [40:42] attention. You get a free access to [40:44] Gapsell online training. Um, Gapselling [40:47] online training. It's free. Brady will [40:48] get it to you or someone will get it to [40:50] you. Sorry about that. So, if anybody [40:51] comes on this show as a consolation [40:53] prize, we will give you free access to [40:54] gap selling online training. All right, [40:56] so with everybody, mad love. You know [40:58] what I'm going to say. Until next time, [41:00] peace. I'm out.

===FILE=== d9i8zeprvlk - Gap Sell Keenan 76 - Can Keenan Sell Keenan AI Sales Coaching Demonstration.txt
https://youtu.be/d9i8zeprvlk
Gap Sell Keenan #76 - Can Keenan Sell Keenan？ (AI Sales Coaching Demonstration)

[0:00] Look, I was going to go easy on you, not [0:02] to hurt your feelings. [0:03] YOU [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] IRRITATE THE OUT OF ME. [0:07] I'm only going to get this one chance. [0:10] It's just a feeling I've got. Like [0:12] something's about to happen, but I don't [0:14] know what. [0:16] I hear go get the money, so I go get it. [0:22] Hey, hey, what's going on everybody? All [0:25] right. Um, [0:28] I'm excited. Can every Okay, so in the [0:30] chat, let's see if we can use the chat. [0:32] Uh, can you guys hear? Can everybody [0:36] hear me? Can everybody see the two [0:38] screens? [0:40] You know, etc. Let's see what we got. [0:43] Someone's coming in the chat. Uh, [0:48] on screen. [0:50] Okay. Can you guys see me? Yep. Okay, [0:52] you can see me. Yes. And you can hear [0:54] me. Hey, what's up, Padilla? Um, I can [0:57] hear it and see. Thank you, Noah. All [0:59] right, so I'm excited. We're going to [1:02] jump in here in a second. Um, feel free [1:05] to, you know, throw things at me. Um, [1:09] while I'm doing it, I'll try to keep my [1:10] eye on both things, but uh, let's just [1:13] go and have some fun with it. I'm [1:15] literally just getting off a sales call, [1:16] so I had no time to think or practice. [1:18] So, this is going to be really [1:19] interesting. All right, here we go. [1:22] Please work. [1:33] I only have 15 minutes. Let's jump [1:35] straight. Sure. Let's jump straight in. [1:38] I wasn't really looking for anything [1:39] specific, but your outreach stood out. [1:41] Figured I'd hear you out. What's on your [1:43] mind? All right. All right. Well, I [1:45] appreciate you taking a few minutes, [1:47] understanding that, knowing you're a [1:49] very busy CEO and you just don't take [1:52] calls for any reason at all. What [1:54] prompted you to take this one? [1:58] Look, your company name came across my [2:00] desk and it mentioned predictability. [2:03] That got my attention. I'm here to see [2:05] if you can actually back that up. [2:06] Okay, I like that. That seems to make [2:08] sense. But understanding that, what is [2:10] it about predictability that's so [2:11] important to you? Is that something [2:12] you're struggling with today? [2:16] Yeah, you could say that. Our forecasts [2:18] are all over the map and honestly it [2:20] screws up my planning. It's frustrating [2:22] because it feels like we should be able [2:24] to nail this by now. [2:25] Kate, can you tell me a little more [2:27] about that? [2:29] Sure. We've got decent teams and tools, [2:32] CRM's solid, got analytics plugged in, [2:35] but the numbers keep jumping around [2:36] monthtomonth. I mean, last quarter we [2:39] thought we'd close at least 30% of the [2:41] pipeline, but we ended up closer to 20%. [2:44] That gap, frustrating as hell, and it [2:46] slows us down more than we'd like. Okay, [2:49] so you you missed your forecast by 10%. [2:52] Um, what did that turn out to in [2:55] dollars? [3:00] I don't have the exact dollar amount [3:02] right now, but missing that forecast [3:04] definitely translates into lost revenue. [3:06] It's a significant impact, especially [3:08] when you're trying to scale and hit [3:10] growth targets. Each percentage point [3:12] can mean a lot when you're talking about [3:13] overall ARR. [3:16] All right. So, I understand you don't [3:18] know exactly, but could we ballpark it? [3:19] Is was did that 10% did that mean like a [3:22] million dollars? [3:26] Yeah, ballpark. It could be in that [3:28] range or even more depending on the [3:29] deals we had lined up, but it's tough to [3:31] pinpoint without looking at the detailed [3:33] breakdown. Still, it's a significant [3:35] hit. All right. So, is it it fair to say [3:38] it could be$1 to2 million in missed deal [3:40] revenue um that quarter? [3:47] Yeah, that sounds about right. It's [3:49] definitely in that ballpark. Missed [3:51] opportunities like that add up quickly, [3:53] especially when we're trying to meet our [3:54] growth goals. [3:56] Okay. Um tell me a little more about [3:58] these growth goals. You keep referencing [4:00] these. Do you have aggressive growth [4:02] goals? What's going on? [4:05] Yeah, we do. We aimed for about 40% [4:07] growth year-over-year. And while we hit [4:09] our quota, we didn't hit the growth [4:11] targets we set. Next year, we're looking [4:13] at a target around 45%. It's all about [4:16] proving to investors that we can scale [4:18] effectively. [4:19] Wow. Okay. 40%. That is that's [4:21] aggressive. What uh what's your current [4:24] revenue today? [4:30] We're hovering around 50 million in ARR [4:32] right now. So pushing to 70 million to [4:34] hit that top end goal for next year. [4:36] It's a significant leap. [4:38] Okay. So if I'm understanding you [4:40] correctly, your ARR is 50 million, which [4:43] means you need to generate an additional [4:45] 20 million in net new business. [4:49] Exactly. We've got to close that gap if [4:52] we want to meet those growth targets. [4:53] It's a big lift and we need to get more [4:55] confidence in our pipeline and execution [4:57] to back it up. [4:59] Okay. You you you referenced several [5:00] times confidence in your pipeline [5:02] execution. Tell me a little bit of how [5:03] your team is selling today. [5:07] Well, the team's pitching can get [5:09] inconsistent. Sometimes the sales story [5:11] doesn't align with what marketing [5:12] promised, which loses momentum. They [5:15] tend to rush to proposals and throw out [5:17] pricing too early, scrambling to justify [5:19] it when push back comes. It's just not [5:21] as problem focused as it needs to be. [5:24] Okay. H how long has the team been this [5:28] rush to the demo? It's been a Sorry. [5:35] No worries. [5:36] Let me ask again. Let me ask again. Uh, [5:38] how long has your team been selling this [5:40] way? [5:43] It's been like this for quite a while. [5:45] Probably over the last year or so. [5:49] Okay. Okay. Um, are you currently using [5:53] or training your team in any type of [5:55] methodology or approach or is this just [5:57] you've developed a an organization where [6:00] they just sort of sell everybody sells [6:01] their own way? [6:06] We did roll out a methodology about a [6:08] year ago, but it kind of sucked. It [6:10] didn't really stick probably because we [6:12] didn't do enough coaching or [6:13] reinforcement. So, it feels like [6:15] everyone's selling in their own way, [6:17] which adds to the inconsistency. [6:20] And this methodology uh I don't really [6:22] care whose it is but can you tell me uh [6:24] what did it emphasize? What were the [6:26] skill sets uh that it focused on? [6:33] It emphasized understanding the [6:35] customer's needs, effective questioning [6:37] and aligning our solutions to those [6:39] needs. It was supposed to help with [6:41] deeper discovery and building value [6:42] before pitching, but honestly it didn't [6:44] translate well into practice. [6:46] Okay. Um I have a couple questions but [6:49] I'm gonna go here first. So because it [6:51] didn't translate well um did you see any [6:54] upticks in some of the key metrics that [6:56] you are hoping to move such as average [6:58] win rate uh um is uh average contract [7:02] value etc. [7:07] No, we didn't see much movement in those [7:09] metrics. The win rates and average [7:11] contract values have stayed pretty much [7:12] the same, which is part of why we're [7:14] frustrated. [7:15] Okay. And what were your win rates at [7:17] the time? [7:20] At the time we were hovering around 25 [7:23] 30% for late stage deals. It's not where [7:25] we want it to be and it feels like it [7:27] could be better. Late stage deals. [7:32] Interesting. Do you know your win rate [7:33] from opportunity creation to close? [7:38] Yeah, that one's definitely lower. Maybe [7:40] around 10 15%. It's a big gap and that's [7:43] part of the problem we're facing. [7:45] No, that is a big gap. Um, that's a real [7:47] big. Do you mind if I ask you this [7:49] question? Why do you track um proposal [7:52] to close or late stage to close? Why are [7:55] you focused more on that one? [7:59] It's more about understanding our sales [8:00] cycle and where the bottlenecks are. [8:02] Late stage metrics give us a clearer [8:04] picture of our closing efficiency, but I [8:06] know we need to dig deeper into the [8:08] entire pipeline, including opportunity [8:10] creation. It's just been tough to pull [8:12] that data consistently. [8:15] Um, so I appreciate where you're coming [8:17] from, but if I could add one thing, [8:19] something to consider, you know, as you [8:21] move forward, whether we work together [8:22] or not, lateage deal measurement. [8:25] Sure. [8:26] Late stage deal measurement isn't really [8:28] where you want to be because you talked [8:29] about bottlenecks. It appears that the [8:31] real bottleneck is between opportunity [8:34] creation and getting to proposal stage. [8:37] You're losing 50% of your one deals [8:40] there. Have you considered that? [8:44] Yeah, that's a valid point. We have to [8:46] look at that part of the process more [8:48] closely. It seems like we might be [8:49] focusing too much on the end stages [8:51] without addressing where the real losses [8:53] are happening. [8:53] Mhm. [8:55] Okay. So, uh from a quota perspective, [8:58] you said that the team uh hasn't really [9:01] moved, but you're at quota. Is the whole [9:03] team at quota or only a percentage of [9:05] the team at quota? [9:10] Currently about half of the team is [9:12] consistently hitting quota. The other [9:14] half struggles to get there and that [9:16] inconsistency is a big part of our [9:18] challenges. [9:19] So that part that's not getting How many [9:22] sales people do you have? [9:27] We've got around 50 reps right now. So [9:29] if half are hitting quota, [9:33] that means around 25 reps are not [9:35] consistently meeting their targets. [9:37] Okay. of those 25 reps, what percentage [9:41] uh are they at? Is that are those 25 [9:43] reps on average at 50% of quota, 75% of [9:47] quota? Roughly where are they? [9:53] Most of those 25 reps are probably [9:55] around 50 60% of quota. So they're [9:57] significantly behind. [9:58] Oh wow. So, if I do my math correctly, [10:02] the 25 that are at quota are at 150% of [10:07] quota because you said you're making [10:09] quota. So, that means 25 of your team is [10:12] carrying the other half. Am I getting [10:14] that right? [10:16] Yeah, that sounds about right. The top [10:18] half of the team is definitely carrying [10:20] the load and it's not sustainable long [10:22] term. [10:23] No, that's a great observation. It's [10:24] not. It's not. Um, what is, by the way, [10:27] I'm sorry, what is your quota per rep? [10:34] The average quota per rep is around a [10:35] million ARR. [10:38] Wow. So, that means you're leaving [10:41] approximately 18 to $25 million in ARR [10:46] on the table. [10:47] Yeah, that's definitely the kind [10:51] Exactly. It's a significant amount that [10:53] we need to figure out how to capture. [10:56] Wow. Okay. Okay. Um, and then you said [10:59] something about these growth goals. [11:01] What's behind these growth goals? What's [11:02] the sense of urgency to grow so quickly? [11:05] I I think you said something about uh [11:07] investment. [11:12] Yeah, investors expect us to show [11:14] scalability and growth. If we don't hit [11:16] those targets, it puts pressure on their [11:18] confidence and can slow down our scaling [11:20] plans. Plus, we're looking to expand [11:22] into new markets and invest in product [11:24] development, which all hinges on meeting [11:26] those numbers. Okay. That that [11:28] investment in new markets and product [11:30] development. Is that going to come from [11:34] uh net profit in the money you're able [11:37] to drive through sales or are you [11:38] looking for a series B or C to make [11:41] those investments? And therefore, you [11:43] need to make uh these numbers to get [11:45] that investment. [11:48] We're likely looking at a series C in [11:50] the next 12 to 18 months. So hitting [11:52] those growth targets definitely keeps [11:54] those funding conversations smoother. If [11:56] we miss them, it could complicate things [11:58] with investors. [12:00] Okay. So when you say if you miss them, [12:02] right now 50% of your team is not making [12:05] quota, which is about a $25 million [12:07] miss. You're going to need to grow 45%. [12:11] So you need to add an additional 25 [12:13] million uh in ARR for next year. So, if [12:17] I'm hearing you correctly, you can't [12:20] rely on that top 50% or those top 25 [12:23] reps to double quota. So, you really [12:26] have to move that bottom 25 up to quota [12:30] and keep the other group at uh 150% of [12:33] quota. Am I getting the numbers right? [12:34] Am I correct there? [12:39] Yeah, you've got it right. We can't just [12:41] rely on the top half to carry us. We [12:43] need to get the bottom half up to quota [12:45] while maintaining the performance of the [12:47] top reps to hit those ambitious growth [12:48] targets. [12:49] Okay. Um, look, I think I have a good [12:51] understanding what's going on, but I [12:52] have a couple more questions around what [12:53] your team is actually doing. Could [12:55] should you share with me the differences [12:58] you see in the bottom half of people and [13:00] the top half of people and what they're [13:02] actually doing? [13:05] The top half tends to be more proactive [13:07] in their approach. They do better [13:08] discovery, ask the right questions, and [13:11] tailor their pitches to the customer's [13:12] needs. The bottom half, on the other [13:15] hand, often rushes to the demo and [13:17] doesn't dig deep enough into the [13:19] customer's problems. There's a [13:20] noticeable difference in how they engage [13:22] with prospects and follow up, which [13:24] leads to those inconsistencies in [13:26] performance. Okay. Um, when you lose [13:30] customers, [13:32] uh, what is the main reason they tell [13:34] you or what do you believe to be the [13:36] reason that customers don't go with you? [13:43] A lot of the time, we lose to the status [13:45] quo. Customers aren't convinced enough [13:46] to make it. [13:49] Sorry, keep going. I interrupted. [13:54] No problem. It feels like we need to [13:56] strengthen our messaging and ensure that [13:58] the sales team is really understanding [14:01] and addressing the customer's specific [14:03] pain points. When they rush through the [14:05] process, it doesn't establish enough [14:08] urgency or value, which ultimately leads [14:10] to lost opportunities. So if I heard you [14:13] correctly, the team is unable to [14:15] actually demonstrate enough value in the [14:18] early stages of the conversation to get [14:21] people to move forward and therefore [14:23] they're defaulting to not changing. Did [14:25] I get that correctly? [14:29] Yeah, that's exactly it. If we don't [14:31] establish that value early on, prospects [14:33] tend to stick with what they know rather [14:35] than making a change. It's a big hurdle [14:37] for us. [14:38] Okay. Um All right. I'd like to take a [14:40] second to repeat back what I've learned [14:42] and you tell me if I've missed anything. [14:44] Is that okay? [14:47] Sure. Go ahead. [14:48] Okay. So, what I heard is you invested [14:50] in a methodology about a year ago and it [14:52] didn't stick primarily because your [14:54] sales management didn't make it stick. [14:57] In addition, because of that, your sales [14:59] team is still selling in a pro a problem [15:01] centric way. They're too focused on [15:03] rushing to the demo, uh selling to [15:06] features and benefits, etc. Primarily a [15:09] good portion of that is the lower half [15:11] of your sales team who is anywhere [15:12] between 50 to 60% at quota where the [15:15] other 25 on your sales team are 150% a [15:18] quarter or more making that up. Because [15:20] of that separation, you're concerned [15:24] that you will not be able to make your [15:25] growth goals next year because that's [15:27] too much of a lift for that top 25. And [15:29] so therefore, you need to move that [15:31] bottom 25 at least a quota to make up [15:34] that 20 to $25 million and allow you to [15:37] get to 75 million. If I'm also [15:39] understanding you correctly, that 75 [15:42] million is important because you need to [15:44] be able to raise a series C in about 18 [15:47] months in order to increase product [15:49] development and expand in markets. So, [15:51] if I've got that right, I'm deducing it [15:54] to from your perspective, those bottom [15:57] 25 people have to be uh leveled up and [16:01] have to produce more next year or you're [16:03] in trouble. Did I get that right? [16:07] Yeah, you nailed it. That's a solid [16:09] recap of where we stand. If we can't get [16:12] that bottom half up to quota, it's going [16:14] to be a tough road ahead for hitting [16:15] those growth targets and securing that [16:17] next round of funding. Okay. So, [16:20] understanding all that, I absolutely [16:21] think uh ASG can help you. Uh I think [16:24] GAP selling would be an excellent fit. [16:26] Are you open to a call next week to walk [16:29] through how gaps selling can help you? [16:31] What we can do for you, etc. [16:35] I appreciate that. I'm open to hearing [16:37] more about it, but I want to be clear [16:39] that I need to see how it specifically [16:41] addresses our challenges before moving [16:43] forward. Let's set up a time to dive [16:45] deeper next week. [16:46] Perfect. Understood. I think we can do [16:48] that. Thanks for all the information. [16:51] Sure thing. Thanks for the conversation. [16:54] Looking forward to our next chat. Peace [16:56] out. [16:59] All right. Um I know this is a webinar [17:01] so I can't see everybody. Um let me see [17:05] if I can see. So um guys, what did that [17:10] take me? I think 15 minutes exactly. [17:13] 15 minutes exactly. What are your [17:15] thoughts? If you want to raise your hand [17:16] and come on and talk if How many people [17:18] we got on this? I can bring a lot of [17:20] people. And if other people want to come [17:21] in and engage, what are your thoughts? [17:23] What questions do you have? What did you [17:25] see? What did you learn? Let's make this [17:28] a little fun one. So, let's let's see [17:30] what we got. Raise your hand or throw in [17:32] the comments and let's have some [17:33] conversation. [17:40] So, Abdullah, yes. What self-dagnosing [17:43] question did you have? Because I think a [17:44] lot of people get confused in that [17:45] concept of self diagnosing. [17:49] You want to come in and have a chat, [17:51] bro? I can let you in. [17:58] All right, let me figure out how to get [18:00] you in here. Hold on. There we go. And [18:02] other folks, come on now. Let's have a [18:05] conversation here, right everybody? [18:08] Oh, we hands raised. Okay. Uh Scott, let [18:10] me see. Scott, you want to come in? I'll [18:13] bring Abdullah in and let's all promote [18:16] to panelist. Come on in. Scott, I'm [18:18] gonna let you in and promote to [18:20] panelist. And Michael Lean, you got your [18:22] hand up. Promote to panelist. So you [18:24] guys can all come in. Anybody who wants [18:26] to come in, have a conversation and talk [18:27] through this. Throw your hand up. [18:30] Let's have some fun with this. What [18:32] prompted you to take that meeting? [18:33] That's not self- diagnosing at all. I [18:37] could never know that. So we can talk [18:39] about that. All right, Abdul. I can't [18:41] see you, but you're here. [18:44] Yeah, I'm here. Can you hear me? [18:46] Yes. Yes. [18:48] When I say [18:48] Sorry. Go. Yep. Go. [18:52] Yeah. I know. I When I say you asked a [18:54] few self diagnosis questions, I I [18:56] realized you did it differently from the [18:58] way like I may do it in a call. So, I [19:00] noticed you asked him something along [19:02] the lines of like why do you like [19:06] measure proposal to win rate? [19:10] Yes. Okay. [19:11] That's a self diagnosis question, but I [19:13] felt like you needed to know that in a [19:15] sense before you could. [19:17] So, that was really interesting to see. [19:18] That was really really cool. [19:20] So, here's here's everybody pay [19:21] attention. Here's the big difference [19:23] between a self- diagnosing question and [19:25] a non-self-dying question when I asked [19:27] them their opinion. [19:30] So, and I understand I've created [19:31] confusion around this, so it's my fault. [19:34] When I bark at people for making self- [19:35] diagnosing questions, it's when they ask [19:37] a question like, [19:39] "Why do you think you're not making [19:42] quota, okay? I'm literally asking the [19:45] buyer to go figure out something on [19:47] their own that is is subjective and [19:50] doesn't get us anywhere where I can ask [19:53] questions that can help me understand [19:55] that." So, a self-dagnosing question in [19:57] my world is like a doctor saying, "So, [19:58] why do you think you're sick? What the [20:00] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] I'm here to talk to you. I I don't [20:02] know. That's your job. The doctor should [20:04] be able to ask questions like, "What do [20:06] you eat? Have you been exposed to [20:07] something? Um, do you have a family [20:09] history?" They can get to why you're [20:11] sick. What they can't do is say, "Can [20:14] you help me understand why you continue [20:16] to eat fatty foods knowing you had a [20:20] cholesterol issue six years ago?" I [20:24] don't know the answer to that. There's [20:25] no way I could ever figure that out. Do [20:27] you see the difference, Abdul? Abdullah, [20:29] I'm sorry. [20:31] Big big difference. big difference. [20:33] There are certain things I just can't [20:34] know and there's no questions that would [20:36] be effective to get to know that. So for [20:39] me to try to ask surrounding questions [20:41] on why they measure from late stage to [20:44] early stage that would be awkward. Don't [20:45] you think Abdul? Is it Abdul or [20:47] Abdullah? I can't [20:48] Abdullah. [20:49] Sorry. Can you see how that [20:50] would be confusing Abdullah? That would [20:52] just be weird [20:53] rather than just saying all right bro so [20:55] you do this as opposed to this. Why? [20:58] That's not self diagnosing to me. That's [21:00] clarification. [21:02] Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I [21:04] really like that frame of doctors where [21:06] like if a doctor asked me this, would I [21:08] think he's kind of a bad doctor? I [21:10] really like that frame. [21:12] Right. Yes. Yes. Um, okay. I brought [21:14] some more people in. Where are you? So, [21:16] come on folks. I love everybody's here. [21:18] You guys have been asking this for [21:20] years. I finally did it. Here's a chance [21:22] to play. Ask questions. Let's go. Who's [21:25] Who's next? Uh, shoot. I can't see the [21:28] There we go. [21:30] Yes. Uh, wait. Who Who's that? I can't [21:32] see everybody. [21:32] Scott, sorry. [21:34] Is that Abdullah? [21:36] Scott. [21:37] Okay, Scott. I don't know why I can't [21:38] see you, but that's okay. [21:40] Yeah, camera's not working. [21:42] Okay. All right. Good. What's your [21:43] question, bro? [21:44] So, no. Um, like how you were doing like [21:48] kind of the self diagnosing uh [21:50] questions. Got that. But you were also [21:52] trying to find out like what his problem [21:53] was and then you kind of just kept [21:56] diving in layer by layer kind of trying [21:58] to figure out what his need was behind [22:00] his need. So it wasn't just one layer [22:03] thick. It was multiple layers. You were [22:05] peeling back. So [22:06] 100%. [22:08] Yeah. Because remember from the book and [22:10] I've talked Why is my thing so weird? [22:12] I'm so close all of a sudden I can't see [22:14] people. Um but oh there we go. So, um, [22:18] no Scott, the reason I do this and as I [22:21] talk about in the book, my goal is to [22:23] understand. Does everybody get that? [22:25] Like my goal is to understand. And so, [22:28] if I just ask one highle question, but I [22:30] don't understand why, right? Or what's [22:32] going on, then I can't really provide [22:35] much value, can I? [22:38] Right? And and it's like you [22:42] you have to understand why. What what is [22:44] it behind it? So you can give them [22:47] basically like a whiff them. What's in [22:48] it for what's in it for me? Well, what's [22:50] in it for them by working with me? [22:54] So yes, exactly. And you saw that. Come [22:58] on. Like wait really quickly. I'm seeing [23:00] Matt Rubinson. I want to answer your [23:02] question. So why don't you come in, bro? [23:04] Um I'll add you. Uh Joey Woodward, come [23:07] on in. Um Matt Spencer, let's all come [23:10] in so I can get your questions and [23:11] answer them to you. So uh just throw [23:13] your hands up. Oh, throw your hands up [23:15] and I'll I'll bring you on. Um, but yes, [23:18] there you go, Matt. Um, so sorry, Scott. [23:21] I'm all over the place. But yes, Scott, [23:24] if you noticed what I did here is by the [23:26] end of this and I did in 15 minutes [23:28] almost exactly, right? And remember all [23:30] these times when people used to do gaps [23:31] Keen and they were all over the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [23:33] place and couldn't get anywhere. I [23:35] answer I'm sorry. I ask questions. I [23:38] don't know how many of you noticed this [23:40] based on the answers they gave me or [23:43] that I gave me. Did any of you notice [23:44] that I didn't just shift all over the [23:46] place? They gave me an answer. I [23:49] listened to that answer, right? And then [23:51] I formulated my next question based on [23:54] that answer. So to your point, Scott, if [23:57] you notice with that with them in that [24:00] 15 minutes, I got to what was the [24:02] problem, right, which was win rates and [24:04] quotota attainment by 50% of the team. [24:06] Do you all agree with that? I guess you [24:08] can't. Yes. Do you agree with that, [24:10] Scott? [24:11] Absolutely. [24:12] Right. Then I got to the impact. Do you [24:15] remember what the impact was? [24:19] To increase uh a [24:22] uh no no that's the outcome. What's the [24:25] impact of not fixing this? [24:29] Oh, of not fixing it. Having to answer [24:32] to the shareholders. [24:33] No, no, no. See, even watching people [24:36] miss this. What was the impact? [24:39] Not getting funding. [24:40] Yes. [24:42] And if they don't get the funding, [24:43] they cannot invest in new markets and [24:45] additional product, which I probably [24:46] could have asked them. I could have got [24:47] better and said, um, in addition, [24:49] therefore, you run the risk of losing to [24:51] the competition or whatever the case may [24:53] be, right? So, I got and then I even got [24:55] to the root causes, right? Did you guys [24:57] notice that I got to the root causes [25:01] because I was able to figure out why [25:02] they're not doing it, [25:05] right? [25:07] Yeah. [25:08] Yes. So, Joey Woodford, yes. How [25:10] important is that you expand? Yes. I I [25:13] wouldn't die if you asked that question. [25:15] I'd prefer what's driving it to expand [25:18] and what happens if you don't? I don't [25:20] like that's self diagnosing to me. How [25:21] important is it? Of course, it's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [25:23] important. Like, of course, right? So, I [25:26] get why you want to do that, but I'm [25:27] okay if you stop there. Everybody gets [25:29] it. You got investors who aren't getting [25:31] the return on their money. They can't go [25:33] public. Like, there's a whole million [25:34] reasons that we can go to that, but [25:35] you're still good there. All right, [25:36] Michael. Uh oh, Lean. Lean, what? I see [25:39] you, Brady. What you got? [25:41] It's all good. It's all good. Hey, um, [25:45] a point in there, the self diagnosis was [25:48] when the AI Keenan shared that he was [25:52] missing his revenue targets by 10%. [25:55] And what you did was you said, well, [25:57] what does that mean in terms of dollars? [25:59] Yep. [25:59] And then he gave you that surface level, [26:02] I'm not really sure. I don't have that [26:04] in front of me. And you didn't accept [26:06] that. you went ballpark then give me a [26:09] ballpark because [26:11] in order to get the buyer to accept or [26:15] take responsibility of this problem they [26:18] have to own the number on it as well [26:20] right so that questioning allowed him to [26:23] sort of um sit back and say gosh you [26:26] know I'm thinking of this in terms of [26:28] 10% I've actually not thought about it [26:30] and articulate it it's self-discovery at [26:32] its finest oh gosh yeah yeah every [26:34] percentage point [26:36] could represent spent a lot of money [26:38] when you're talking about a $50 million [26:40] enterprise. So, I thought that was good. [26:42] Um, and I put something in the chat [26:45] earlier I just wanted to address too [26:47] that uh what compelled you to take this [26:49] meeting wasn't a self diagnosis [26:51] question, but I am always amazed at the [26:54] way that a discovery starts. That is a [26:58] brilliant way to do it because again, [27:00] it's ownership. It's self-discovery. [27:03] But you also did a great job when he [27:04] said predictability. that stood out to [27:06] me. Said, "What does that mean to you?" [27:08] A lot of sales reps would just go, "Oh, [27:10] predictability. Yeah, we do that. [27:11] Great." And they go on to the next [27:13] thing. Right. So, I thought that was was [27:15] an awesome job. Love that. [27:17] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank [27:18] you. Um, okay. Uh, wait, because I can't [27:22] see people's faces. Matt Rubenstein, I [27:24] think you had a question. I can't see [27:25] you. So, come on in. Or do you still [27:27] have a question? Oh, wait. Okay. I see [27:29] you, Abdullah, but I want to make sure I [27:30] get to everybody. But you can stay on [27:32] camera. I love it. I feel like I'm [27:33] looking at people. I'm not in the dark. [27:34] Hey Ruby, what's up baby? [27:37] Uh yeah, big fan of your work. I read [27:39] both, you know, not taught and uh gaps [27:41] selling and recommend it to a lot of [27:42] people and ANYWAYS SO [27:43] NOT TAUGHT. THAT'S I I THINK THAT'S THE [27:45] BEST BOOK OF ALL OF THEM to be honest [27:46] with you. [27:47] It's pretty good. Um yeah, so and I hope [27:50] this is recorded so we can review it. [27:52] But uh the question so the question is [27:54] like [27:55] because I've been in the situation where [27:56] you're asking questions and asking [27:57] questions and trying to establish [27:58] there's a problem and then they kind of [28:00] get that fatigue, right? And so how do [28:02] you know that they are set up so they [28:04] won't get fatigued? Because you really [28:05] went in there. Um but they, you know, in [28:08] this case it it worked out, but like how [28:10] do you know whether they're right kind [28:11] of ready for that? [28:13] So I have a very strong belief and like [28:15] anything else guys, nothing is 100%. [28:17] Okay? So for whatever reason, Western [28:19] culture or sales the world, we're very [28:21] freaking binary, right? It's like, oh, [28:23] it's either this OR THAT. NO, IT'S NOT. [28:24] But I believe generally speaking, the [28:27] majority of the time buyer fatigue comes [28:30] from shitty [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] questions, right? [28:33] It's like I asked, so let's just say he [28:35] said, "Oh, it's predictability." And [28:36] then I said, "Okay, SO HOW ARE YOU GUYS [28:38] DOING THIS?" And then he answered like, [28:39] "Okay, so um how many sales people do [28:41] you have in your team?" And then answer [28:42] it, "So um uh are you the are you the [28:44] manager or not?" Right? There's no [28:46] connection. So after answering three, [28:48] five, seven, nine, 12 questions that [28:50] seem disjointed, [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] lack any [28:52] direction, they're like, "Okay, [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [28:54] this. I'm done. Can you just get on with [28:55] it? But when they're connected and the [28:58] person is brought along on the journey [29:02] and they can understand or grasp why [29:05] those questions matter, [29:08] there's never buyer fatigue ever. Ever. [29:12] Right. As I just said, ever in binary, [29:14] but you get my point. Yes. [29:16] Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you. [29:18] Yeah. And just and just look, I can't [29:20] teach EQ. Jeb Blunt, I wrote a book on [29:22] it. I don't know. Use your EQ and watch [29:24] them. Like literally watch them. And I'm [29:25] not afraid. If I feel that my questions [29:27] are good and they're not involved, I [29:29] will stop and say, "Hey, listen. It [29:31] feels like the questioning Oh, watch. I [29:33] didn't even know I do this. It feels [29:35] like the questioning is not providing [29:37] value. Can I go somewhere else or am I [29:40] missing something?" Because that's the [29:42] key, everybody. I've never said this [29:43] before. You guys all learned something [29:44] new. The key is the questions should be [29:48] valuable in themselves. [29:51] The job of a salesperson is to get the [29:54] buyer to reflect. [29:57] Everybody pay attention to that. The job [29:59] of the salesperson is to get the buyer [30:01] to reflect. And if YOUR QUESTIONS DO NOT [30:03] GET them to reflect, then it's going to [30:05] be buyer fatigue. [30:09] Was that helpful? [30:11] Very. [30:12] Okay. Um, Michael Lean asked this [30:14] question. Scott asks, Spencer, come on [30:16] in, baby. Rub. Oh, Matt could have [30:18] stayed on. I like when I see people stay [30:19] on. Abdu, you're my guy. Yeah, there you [30:21] go, Matt. Everybody stay on. Turn on [30:23] your cameras. Let's go. Let me see. All [30:25] right. Uh, thank you, Michael Spencer. [30:29] Oh, yes. Oh, look at Wait, you and [30:32] almost you and Matt almost look like [30:33] you're in the same room in the white [30:36] room with dark curtains. Okay, sorry. [30:39] What do you got? What do you got, [30:40] Spence? [30:41] The boiler room. Uh, no. Thanks for [30:43] doing this, Kenan. This was super super [30:45] impactful. Uh, my question was kind of [30:47] already asked by Mike, but it was more [30:48] to do with the information that you're [30:50] looking for. If it's not provided, how [30:53] you kind of think about pivoting or, you [30:55] know, I I get you didn't accept that one [30:57] answer, but if you really can't get to [30:59] it, is there a strategy? Is there [31:01] something in your mind you're going to [31:02] pivot to to to kind of get that or or [31:06] work around that? [31:07] Yeah. So, I think it depends on why you [31:09] can't get to it. Right. So, if the buyer [31:11] says, "I'm not going to give it to you," [31:13] then I explain why it's important. and I [31:15] say, "Okay, if you don't feel [31:16] comfortable, I appreciate it. Let me [31:17] explain to you why this is important to [31:18] this process. And uh I'm willing to earn [31:22] the right to get it later, but without [31:25] it, I think it it it impacts my ability [31:27] to make the appropriate recommendation [31:29] to you when that time comes." Okay? If [31:31] it's because they don't know it, then [31:33] I'm like, "Hey, no problem at all. Same [31:34] thing. This is why it's important. This [31:36] is how it helps me help you. And so, if [31:39] by the next call if you could get it or [31:41] is there a place you could steer me to [31:43] get it, etc." and again explaining why [31:44] it's important. Now, if you notice in [31:46] both of my examples, Spencer, and [31:48] everybody else listening, I'm still [31:50] driving to the idea that this is about [31:52] you, buyer. This is about you. This [31:54] isn't about me. I'm trying to figure out [31:56] how I can help you. Yes, I cost money. [31:59] Yes, you have to pay me. Yes, there are [32:01] other options, but that's not the [32:03] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] point. The point is I'm trying [32:05] to position myself in a way to give you [32:07] the best recommendation or the best [32:09] suggestions possible. And the less [32:12] information I have, the less I can do [32:14] that. [32:16] Cool. Thanks, man. [32:17] Yeah, absolutely. Um, uh, so yes, I'm [32:20] gonna go back to Abdullah. Others, if [32:22] you have questions, raise your hands and [32:23] I'll bring you in. Um, and also [32:25] everybody still listen. We're still [32:26] holding a decent crowd. Not as big as [32:28] yesterday, but still. Everybody do me a [32:30] favor and either now or while we're [32:32] doing this or whatever, go on LinkedIn [32:33] and tell people how badass this was and [32:35] what they thought about it, etc., etc. [32:37] Okay. Um, okay. Abdullah asked your [32:40] question. And before you do that, Andre, [32:42] um, come on. Come on in and ask your [32:45] questions. Andre, raise your hand and [32:46] I'll bring you on. Um, let me see. Matt, [32:49] Michael, Shane, um, it sounded complete [32:53] opposite to a scripted interrogation. [32:54] Shane, what do you mean by that? Come [32:55] on, raise your hand so I can have you [32:57] come in and we can talk about that. Um, [33:00] Andre, yes, I can do that, but not to [33:02] the end. Um, [33:05] okay. I think that's everybody. All [33:06] right. [33:07] What's your what's your question? Uh [33:09] Abdullah? [33:10] Yeah. So, it's very similar to what [33:12] Spencer asked. Uh a lot of times like uh [33:14] when like I'm an inbound uh BDR, so a [33:17] lot of times when people come to me, [33:19] it's usually going to be [33:22] like either manager level or below. Um, [33:25] and they might not [33:28] know a lot of the things that I'm [33:29] looking for or like when they do give [33:33] answers, they feel like they're they're [33:35] like kind of confused by the questions [33:37] in a sense. [33:38] Yeah. [33:39] I guess like what do you what do you do [33:40] in situations like that? Because I [33:42] noticed you were speaking to a CEO, so [33:43] he really understood like the big [33:45] picture, the impacts, the problems they [33:47] were trying to solve. But I feel like [33:50] like a manager thinks differently and [33:52] and different things like that. Like [33:53] even me, I think differently from my [33:55] manager and you know it's like [33:57] okay so thinking differently versus [33:59] understanding the problem are two [34:00] entirely different things. So um if you [34:03] have an inbound my first suggestion [34:05] without spending a million hours asking [34:07] you a bunch of questions would be to [34:09] start the same thing the call the same [34:11] way I started here. What prompted you to [34:14] call in? What what was your motivation [34:16] to come and want to talk to us? Okay. [34:18] Yeah, that's what I do. [34:19] Okay. Well, then somewhere in there [34:21] you're you're you're messing up. And I'm [34:23] not trying to be disrespectful, but if [34:25] you ask somebody why they called in and [34:27] they give you an answer and then you ask [34:30] them a question that they don't know the [34:32] answer is in confusing and they're like, [34:34] I don't know why I'd even need to know [34:35] that, [34:37] means you probably got off the [34:39] reservation. You know what I'm saying? [34:41] And in the few times that you didn't get [34:43] off the reservation, you can just simply [34:44] come back and say, "Okay, let me explain [34:47] to you why this why this information is [34:49] important is important as a their [34:52] position, right? Or XYZ company. The [34:55] reason this information is important, [34:56] why I'm asked for is it dictates this or [34:58] drives this or it can affect that." And [35:00] you said the reason you wanted to talk [35:01] was you try to accomplish this. Without [35:03] this information, it makes this a [35:04] problem or this creates you see where [35:06] I'm going. You got to tie back to them [35:07] why it's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] important. And the fact [35:09] they didn't know it, you got to be a [35:10] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] right? So, or you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up. [35:13] Like, or you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up. [35:14] It's It's me. It's me. I'm [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up. [35:17] Like way off the reservation. If they [35:19] were like, "Why do I need to know that?" [35:21] Does that help? [35:22] No. No. Not necessarily like, "Why do I [35:24] need to know that?" It's just a lot of [35:25] times like they don't they don't know [35:26] the answer. [35:27] Well, okay, that's different. If they [35:29] don't know the answer because they just [35:30] don't know it. I already answered it for [35:32] you. And that is just explain to them [35:33] why it's important and go back and get [35:35] it. If they don't know why it's [35:36] important to know it or they don't [35:38] understand why they should know it and [35:40] they feel the question is out of left [35:41] field, then you either did that or they [35:44] lack a level of knowledge you need to [35:46] educate them on. [35:47] Okay. No, that's perfect. Thank you, [35:49] Ken. [35:49] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [35:50] 100%. Oh my goodness. [35:52] Okay. Um, Andre, what's up, my man? And [35:55] then, uh, let me see who else. Whiz, I [35:57] think I just saw someone else come on [35:59] here. Uh, one other person. Come on. [36:01] Come on camera, but go Andre. What? Am I [36:03] saying that right? Andre. Andre. [36:04] Yeah. Yeah. [36:06] Okay. [36:07] Maybe you are not, but that that's fine. [36:09] I can live with that. No worries. So, [36:11] good to see you. Thank you for doing all [36:12] that. My pleasure to like to be [36:15] spectator of such a great event. Quick [36:18] question actually two of them. How do [36:20] you know uh when the problem is [36:23] uncovered and it's time to move to the [36:25] uh impact identifying part and [36:28] afterwards once impact is identified [36:30] then it's time to move on to root causes [36:33] analysis doing discovery. [36:36] Um I don't do them in order. [36:39] So I take what the buyer gives me. Now [36:42] there are times that based on the [36:43] answers I can shift. So, you know, once [36:46] he told me from a problem perspective [36:48] that it was almost or we got to the [36:49] point where we realized it was almost [36:51] $25 million, um, uh, I knew that problem [36:54] was big enough, right? So then I had to [36:57] figure out why is it $25 million like [36:59] what what's going on? So I shifted to [37:01] find root causes. But generally [37:03] speaking, I don't necessarily care how I [37:06] get the information, what the order is, [37:09] right? I can jump in and out of um I can [37:12] jump in and out of um problem questions, [37:14] root cause questions, impact questions. [37:15] I can bounce all around as long as I get [37:17] it. The answer is when do I have enough? [37:19] When it makes sense. Like l I don't [37:22] sound like a jerk, but when it [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [37:24] makes sense. It's $25 million problem. [37:27] That makes sense. Our series C is on the [37:29] line. That makes sense, right? 50% of my [37:32] team is less than 60% of quota. That [37:34] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] makes sense, right? if it if he [37:37] had said uh you know, yeah, it's costing [37:39] about $200 or $300,000 and you know, and [37:42] about one or two people aren't. I just [37:43] think it'd be better to just I just want [37:45] to uptra the team. I just want to get [37:46] them up trained. All right. Well, are [37:47] you going to make your number? Oh, yeah. [37:48] We'll make it probably exceed it by 10%. [37:50] Well, then what the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] are we doing [37:51] here? And if they keep saying I just [37:53] want to train my team, [37:55] I don't believe I'll win that deal [37:56] because the minute I tell him it's going [37:58] to cost him $200,000, oh, I don't want [38:00] to spend that much. Well, no [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] If [38:02] you just just want to upscale your team, [38:05] you better have a reason to spend [38:06] $200,000. Now, what I could do is flip [38:09] that and say, if your team was this much [38:11] better, do you believe that you could go [38:14] from 110% a quarter to 125% a quarter? [38:16] Yeah, that that's what I really want to [38:17] do. I want to overperform. Okay, great. [38:19] How much is overperforming? Well, if we [38:21] get to 125% a quarter, that is actually [38:24] $7 million. [38:27] Okay, now I'll talk to you. And so even [38:30] though it's a nice to have, you told me [38:32] that if you believe you can get your [38:34] team to hear that $7 million, well, do [38:36] you want to pay the $200,000 to get them [38:38] to 7 million? [38:40] Got it. And how do you know that impact [38:42] is big enough for the prospect [38:45] to move on to the next stage? [38:48] Okay. I'm just gonna have fun with you, [38:50] Andre, because you you you're really [38:51] nice to me online and everything. So, [38:52] I'm just going to have fun with you. So, [38:53] don't take it personally. IF YOU DON'T [38:54] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] KNOW IF IT'S BIG ENOUGH, go into [38:56] a different business, [38:59] I mean, like like IT THE REL I'M GIVING [39:01] YOU [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] BUT THE relationship is really [39:02] it comes down to what am I charging? [39:06] What's the context of the business? [39:08] Right? So, in this case, they're a $50 [39:10] million business, $25 million on the [39:12] table. Series C is is at risk. They [39:15] won't be able to expand and scale. [39:17] They're already invested at series A and [39:18] B, which means they'll be [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] pissed [39:20] off. What do you mean when do you know? [39:22] That's clear as day. [39:24] Right. So, if you I'm not trying to be a [39:27] jerk. I don't know how else to answer [39:28] because it's going to be different for [39:29] every company. But if you can't figure [39:31] out what uh Oh, am I late for something? [39:34] Sean's texting me. [39:36] Ending the screen share. Oh, yeah. I'll [39:37] end the screen share. Sorry, guys. I'll [39:39] end the screen share. Um, if you can't [39:41] figure out uh why or what makes [39:45] something impact uh a big impact, [39:48] that's more of a business acumen issue [39:50] to me than it is an actual selling [39:52] issue. And I'm pretty confident, Andre, [39:54] that you are very good at figuring that [39:56] out. But that's my answer. It's [39:57] different every time and you just have [39:58] the business acumen to know what it is. [40:01] Thank you. This is helpful. Appreciate [40:02] Kevin. [40:03] Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Uh, who [40:06] else got questions? Who else wants to [40:08] jump in? Let's go. [40:11] How often do you get me to go through [40:13] this stuff? [40:16] Let me see. Let me see. Where am I? [40:20] Okay. Nobody else is Whitney [40:23] Abdul. Okay. He's like, I'm taking [40:24] advantage if no one else is. Let's go. [40:26] Yeah, bro. [40:27] I'll take it. I'll take it. Uh, so one [40:29] thing uh I I'm like actively trying to [40:32] do, I saw your post on like coachability [40:34] as well, is I'm trying to get better at [40:36] coaching myself. So sometimes like I [40:39] review my calls on Gong and I'll leave [40:41] comments for myself. Um, the thing that [40:43] I'm working on right now is really going [40:46] back to the current state and like, you [40:48] know, figuring out why did they need to [40:50] change. That's the thing I'm working on [40:51] right now. [40:52] But I guess like how do you how do you [40:54] think about coaching yourself? Like how [40:57] do you know you're doing a good job is [41:00] the shameless plug. [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] great. Go [41:03] what's If your company won't do it and [41:05] you want to send me an email, I can try [41:06] to or go to uh I got to put a link. [41:10] Sean, give me a link. Sean, put a link [41:12] in here, please, and go buy what you [41:14] just saw. So, we have an AI coaching [41:18] tool that you can talk to me. It has [41:21] it'll it'll fit your buyer personas. You [41:23] can do role plays. It'll score those [41:25] role plays. You can come back in and [41:27] talk to me about those. You can upload [41:28] gone calls. You can upload transcripts. [41:30] It'll tell you what to thought of those [41:32] transcripts. It'll create a a plan for [41:34] you over a four-week period telling you [41:36] to work on different things, how to get [41:37] the current state, how to find um uh [41:40] impact. So, Andre might be struggling [41:42] with impact. So, they'll set up role [41:44] plays with your actual buyer persona and [41:45] help you test on role play. I mean, [41:47] finding impact and then give you a score [41:49] on that. Come back and talk to me and [41:50] I'll tell you what to do. So, go buy [41:53] that. [41:55] Seriously, I love it. I love it. [41:57] Go buy that. That is the best. That that [41:59] is you'll get more out of that value [42:01] than anything else. [42:02] So, is it is that being trained on like [42:04] the pitch chart you give it or how does [42:06] it like what information do you give? So [42:09] the the the AI itself has been trained [42:11] on everything we've created and it's [42:12] constantly being fixed and updated. The [42:14] buyer personas are built automatically. [42:16] You tell them what you want. We go out [42:18] and we actually build buyer personas [42:19] that look like your buyers. You upload [42:21] your pick. So bas based on your pick. [42:23] Now if you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] it up, I can't help you [42:24] there, but it's based on your pick. And [42:27] uh it is very very very very real. I [42:29] mean you saw that just there, right? You [42:31] saw what happened. So yes. Uh Matt. [42:36] Yeah. Uh not sure this is the forum. But [42:38] I'm really curious when uh Gap [42:40] prospecting comes out because I want [42:41] January I hope. But sign up for the [42:43] training. WHAT ARE YOU waiting for? [42:46] So Sean, put the training link in here [42:47] too so you guys can go get AI Keenan [42:50] yesterday and you can actually talk to [42:53] me, work with me, do role plays, [42:55] everything I said. And we're doing a gap [42:58] selling training. Uh I'm sorry, gap [43:00] prospecting training at the end of the [43:01] month. It is the you'll get the book for [43:04] free as part of it. You'll get Will and [43:06] I doing the training. You will get a [43:08] t-shirt, a free Slack channel that [43:10] people can participate in as we ask [43:11] questions. You'll get a whole bunch of [43:13] AI scripts. You I mean, it is the bomb. [43:17] And if you care about if you truly care [43:20] about improving your connect rates, [43:22] improving your um conversion rates, [43:25] don't wait for a book that you have to [43:26] figure out how to do yourself. Like this [43:29] is for a limited number of people, the [43:31] first exposure and full-on training of [43:33] it at the end of the month. So, go sign [43:35] up for that, bro. [43:39] Uh, next question. [43:43] Michael, did you have a question? [43:48] No, but I just thought um we're going to [43:51] have a member of the team uh join the uh [43:54] gap prospecting webinar. And I thought a [43:57] good way to reinforce that would be to [43:59] have an AI Keenan because we know that [44:01] sometimes retention uh in terms of sales [44:04] coaching can be a challenge. But I love [44:07] that you've made that available to [44:08] individuals too. Uh so you don't have to [44:11] necessarily get your company to invest. [44:13] Uh look at me putting on a shameless [44:14] plug. I'm selling myself. I'm self [44:16] diagnosing right now. See that? Uh [44:18] beautiful. So no, this is really good. I [44:21] appreciate this. Um and that tool seems [44:23] very capable. Um which is cool. So, it [44:25] was great to see you in action. Um, [44:27] always love watching you do a discovery [44:29] though. Um, my biggest takeaway is, um, [44:33] reject those surface level answers, [44:36] right? Um, we're taught to ask surface [44:38] level questions. And so often, and I see [44:41] this affecting sales teams everywhere, [44:44] we just sort of take that initial [44:46] response and think we've checked the [44:48] box. Oh, predictability. Okay, good. But [44:51] you haven't because you don't truly [44:53] understand, right? So, um, this was [44:56] awesome. [44:57] Good, good, good. I'm glad you I'm glad [44:59] you enjoyed. Ah, Shane, beautiful. Um, [45:01] again, everybody, go sing the praises of [45:04] this thing on LinkedIn. Let's get people [45:05] knowing about this. Let's get people [45:06] talking. Shane, your um, yes, your [45:09] question. And before you ask it, [45:11] everybody, I would also like if anybody [45:13] wants to share or you can say it in the [45:14] comments. How different was this from [45:18] the seven Oh, Shane, don't go anywhere. [45:20] the 75 [45:22] previous gap cell kenons. Can you guys [45:26] see a real difference in what I'm try [45:29] what I do and what I teach versus what [45:31] people were doing when they reached out [45:32] to me. So talk in the comments or raise [45:34] your hand if you want to share that. [45:35] Shane, how you doing baby? [45:37] Yeah, good things Kenan. So I have been [45:39] using this uh for the past couple of [45:42] months and I had compared it to a couple [45:46] of other tools and what I really noticed [45:48] was there's far more coaching in this [45:52] tool. I noticed some of the other tools [45:55] are a bit more prescriptive and they're [45:57] a bit more give it the answer whereas [45:59] this really is the essence of coaching [46:02] where it forces you the coach to think. [46:06] Um, so there's a lot of value in that [46:09] and uh I'm not trying to plug this [46:11] either, but [46:13] you know if if that's what a person [46:15] wants to be really coached, this is the [46:18] right tool for them. But the reason I'm [46:20] here is one of the comments I left was [46:23] it sounded a complete opposite to a [46:25] scripted interrogation. And what I meant [46:28] by that was [46:30] it's clearly because you're not using [46:32] the script and it's easy to observe that [46:35] your questions are based on the answers [46:39] from your previous question. And it's [46:42] great to see that in action. [46:44] Dude, you're a genius. That's exactly [46:47] what it's about, right? Uh a woman who [46:49] used to work for me, she called it [46:51] fearless curiosity. And so whenever I go [46:54] into a um uh a discovery, I'm truly and [46:59] genuinely at my heart going in to [47:01] understand. [47:03] And I actually play this out in my in my [47:06] life. Right early this morning, a friend [47:07] called. Hadn't talked to her in a long [47:09] time. And she apologized for um not [47:12] calling. And she goes, "I got to be [47:13] honest with you. When I have a call with [47:16] you, I have to be prepared." She goes, [47:19] "You just won't have service level [47:21] conversations." So, if I say to you, [47:23] "I'm doing great." Then you'll say, [47:25] "Well, tell me about that. What's going [47:26] on?" And then if I give you any answer [47:29] that seems like I'm inconsistent, you [47:31] just [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] go there. And I'm not [47:33] always ready to go there. So, sometimes [47:35] I avoid calling you just because I don't [47:37] want to get into it. So, it's funny. [47:39] That's that's just my natural nature. [47:42] Just learn to be genuinely curious and [47:45] get under the covers. I called it [47:47] stripping a long time ago. You got to [47:49] keep stripping layers back, right? until [47:52] you get to what's really going on, [47:54] positive or negative. Like there's no [47:56] there's no um agenda in this. To me, [47:59] when I do this, I assume something is [48:01] going wrong or you wouldn't be on the [48:02] phone, but there's no agenda. I'm truly [48:05] genuinely trying to see this as clearly [48:09] as possible [48:11] so that when we finally get to the stage [48:13] that says, "I can help you." You trust [48:16] that I can help you. Why? Because you [48:19] know I understand what's going on. [48:22] And that attitude really comes across on [48:24] the coaching tool as well because [48:26] sometimes I've asked you questions on it [48:28] to the AI and you go so [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] deep [48:30] into it. I actually just hang up Kenan [48:32] because my my brain needs to be in the [48:34] right place to be able to engage back [48:36] like but it's it's fantastic. [48:38] Beautiful. Beautiful. And look Shane, I [48:40] appreciate it because I remember I'm [48:41] going to put you on the spot. I [48:42] apologize if you upset you that at first [48:44] you felt udly our competition was a [48:46] better tool. And one of the challenges [48:48] we have is we're not a roleplay tool. We [48:51] purposely set out to be a coaching tool [48:54] that um sorry we purposely set out to be [48:57] a coaching tool that uses role play to [49:01] get better. We aren't a roleplay tool. [49:04] That's why to your point sometimes it's [49:05] not prescriptive or just you know [49:07] repetitive or or sort of you know [49:09] structured. It's designed to literally [49:12] get you to think. It's designed to coach [49:14] you and bring you along. And the cool [49:16] part is I just had a product [49:17] conversation today. The next level of [49:20] this is going to be um complete deal [49:24] support. So you can sit and say, "Hey, [49:27] I'm struggling with this deal. What did [49:28] I miss? What do I need to see?" And [49:30] we're going to be able to go in and say, [49:31] "Okay, you got this." So then we can [49:32] combine the coaching, the roleplay, and [49:36] skills development, and the deal success [49:39] all together. So I mean, this is just [49:42] the beginning. We're going places that [49:43] other people are trying to run check [49:45] boxes, you know, and it's like, oh, [49:46] well, everybody went through it and [49:48] they're on boarded and we certified [49:50] them. No, [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] that. We're not in that [49:51] business. That's how you did it the old [49:52] way. We're going to make this a way that [49:54] you have a little guy on your shoulder [49:56] that gets you through everything, makes [49:57] you better, closed more deals, and gives [49:59] you the path to do all that. [50:02] Good. [50:03] Beautiful. All right. Someone else had a [50:05] question or or wait, I see some stuff in [50:06] the chat. What do we got? What do we [50:07] got? What do we got? Uh, [50:10] Matt Rubenson, yes, you got a question. [50:12] You're on here, too. What do you got, [50:13] Matt? [50:16] Oh, no. Sorry. I was just throwing in a [50:17] few things like I was just saying like [50:19] the live coaching series on YouTube [50:21] because I checked the last one was 10 [50:22] months ago. Like, and just seeing you [50:24] just seeing how it works, just seeing [50:25] your process, uh, just really helps. [50:28] Good. Great. I love it. Um, let me see. [50:31] Spencer. Um, yes. Go, my man. Oh, he was [50:35] on here. [50:36] Yeah. Hey, Kenan. I'm here. No, I just [50:38] threw something in the chat saying you [50:40] were asking about what we kind of [50:42] thought about the call and I was just [50:43] saying you knew exactly what you were [50:44] looking for. That's the big difference [50:45] between a lot of the previous [50:48] calls that we've seen like for gap [50:49] selling. It's knowing exactly what you [50:52] were looking for and what you needed to [50:54] kind of get there. So, [50:55] and where do you think that comes from? [50:57] How do I know what I'm looking for? [50:58] Based on what? [51:00] Based on your pick. Know your pick. [51:02] HEY, [51:05] everybody's still here. It's all about [51:07] the pick. Well done, Spence, bro. Well [51:10] done. Um, [51:12] okay. Anybody new? Anybody else? [51:17] Anybody want to ask another question? [51:20] Oh, good man. [51:22] Wait, I got a new guy. All right, let's [51:23] bring him in. I do. I haven't forgotten [51:25] you, but anytime we can get someone new [51:26] in, I get excited. Jonathan Maym, I hope [51:30] that's Maym. [51:34] This is one of This has been fun. And by [51:37] the way, just so you guys know, I was [51:39] nervous. Not because it wouldn't work. I [51:41] was Look, I understood my entire [51:43] credibility was on the table. And if I [51:46] didn't do this right, [51:49] I was in trouble. Uh, all right, John. [51:51] What do you got, baby? [51:52] Hey. Hey, [51:53] Jonathan. I apologize. [51:55] Oh, no. No sweat. Um, so I'm doing some [51:58] work with Celeste right now. She's [51:59] absolutely fantastic. I'm loving it. One [52:01] topic which I'm gonna be talking to her [52:02] about, I want to get your take on too is [52:04] to what extent is it my job to find the [52:06] thing my prospect already cares about [52:08] and then you know build out a killer [52:10] business case for it and convince them [52:12] I'm the right solution and to what [52:13] extent is it my job to try to make them [52:15] care about something that initially they [52:16] don't care about. Reason I ask is that [52:19] you know the tool I'm selling can solve [52:20] a lot of different problems which can [52:22] manifest a lot of different ways. Most [52:24] organizations probably have at least a [52:25] little bit of these problems going on in [52:27] every category, but if they if their [52:30] initial reaction to that category is, [52:32] I'm actually happy with that. I don't [52:34] want to like spend the time to try to [52:35] like take them up and down the pick [52:36] chart and convince them to care. I'd [52:38] rather say fine, you're happy with that, [52:39] then I'm happy with that, too. Let's [52:40] find something you're not happy with and [52:42] explore that better. So, to what extent [52:44] do I find what they're already unhappy [52:45] with, and to what extent do I have to [52:47] like make them unhappy about something [52:48] they previously were happy with? [52:50] Wow, that's a powerful question, bro. [52:52] That's a powerful question. Let me just [52:53] check my schedule. Make sure I don't [52:55] have something coming up. Um, okay. No, [52:57] I'm good. So, that's a powerful question [52:59] and [53:01] the answer comes down to it depends on [53:04] how important it is for you to make your [53:07] number. Right? So, [53:10] when someone says, "I'm good with [53:12] something," [53:14] that suggests to me that you asked them [53:16] or put them in a position to that's self [53:19] diagnosing that to me. If someone says [53:21] to me, "Oh, I'm good with that. I'm [53:22] happy with that." You asked a bunch of [53:24] questions that were self- diagnosing or [53:26] you got or you asked that question [53:28] outright. Are you happy with? And here's [53:30] the example. I think many of you heard [53:31] me do this before. It's like the [53:32] marriage question. How many of you are [53:34] married here? Raise your hand. Okay? If [53:37] I asked you guys, and don't answer if [53:39] you're happily married, unless you're on [53:42] the edge of divorce, you're going to say [53:43] yes, right? You especially if you don't [53:46] know me that well. Maybe if your buddy [53:47] are you happy? He's like, "I don't [53:48] know." Like, but generally speaking, [53:50] you're going to say yes. So, asking that [53:52] question is is just dumb. So, what I [53:55] really want to do is say, okay, hey, I [53:57] understand you're married. Yes. Um, so [53:59] can you help me understand, you know, [54:00] how often do you and your wife fight? Or [54:02] you and your spouse, whatever. How often [54:03] do you fight? Right? Then I listen to [54:05] that answer. And then, uh, how well are [54:07] you able to resolve those when you do [54:08] fight? Ah, not very good. So then what [54:10] happens? You spend the night on the [54:11] couch. Yes. Spend the night. How often [54:12] do you spend the night on the couch? [54:14] When's the last time you brought her [54:15] home something him home something that [54:16] was special and sweet without them [54:18] asking and did something special? When's [54:20] the last time you set up a date night [54:21] without anybody knowing? Like, you see [54:23] what I'm saying? And as I ask these [54:25] questions, I will [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] know. I will [54:29] know if your if your marriage is in [54:31] trouble, if it could be better or if [54:33] it's perfect, right? And if it could be [54:35] let's pick pick the middle one. They're [54:36] happy, but it could be better. The [54:38] minute I get to those things, now the [54:41] question is, isn't am I happy in my [54:42] marriage? Is would I like to be in a [54:45] marriage where I'm not sleeping on the [54:46] couch as often? Would I like to be in a [54:48] marriage where I can resolve issues [54:49] faster without as much conflict? If the [54:51] answer to that is yes, then it doesn't [54:53] matter that you're happy. It is you [54:55] could be happier and you don't like [54:56] where you are now. Do you see what I'm [54:59] saying? So that's your job as a [55:01] salesperson. 100%. That's your job as a [55:04] salesperson. The question then becomes, [55:06] do you know where to do it, how to do [55:08] it, uh, in comparison to the other [55:10] places you could go? And that's going to [55:12] be situational and that's going to be up [55:13] to you and that's over my pay grade in [55:16] this moment without asking more [55:17] questions. [55:18] Did that answer your question? [55:21] Mostly with the [55:22] where did I miss? [55:24] I say with the marriage analogy, let's [55:26] say, right, there's, I don't know, five [55:27] different areas of a person's marriage [55:29] you can help, right? Finances, handling [55:31] conflict, parenting, etc. If you're [55:33] doing a discovery call and you say, [55:34] "Hey, how about finances?" And they're [55:35] like, "No, actually we feel pretty good [55:36] about the way we manage finances." Do [55:38] you keep digging and say, "Ah, are you [55:40] sure?" [55:40] Wait, wait, wait. [55:43] Say that again. Say that again. [55:46] What question you just asked? What [55:47] question you just say to me right there? [55:50] How about finances? [55:52] Yeah, how about finances? Right. A lot [55:53] of couples fight over that. How are you [55:55] feel guys feeling about that? Right. Is [55:56] that is that a [55:57] Look what YOU JUST DID. IT'S ALMOST LIKE [55:58] I'M TALKING TO A WALL. I'M SORRY, BUT [56:00] LOOK WHAT YOU JUST DID. YOU LITERALLY [56:02] JUST SAID, "HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?" [56:05] THAT IS A ANYBODY that's a self- [56:06] diagnosing question and you're dead in [56:08] the water. What you need to SAY IS, [56:10] "LOOK, THEY'RE ON THE CALL. THERE'S A [56:12] REASON they're on the call." So, the [56:13] first thing you do if you ask them, [56:15] "What prompted you to come here today?" [56:18] That should guide you. Well, my wife and [56:19] I fight over finances. Okay? Or, I was [56:22] just curious on how you help people WITH [56:24] FINANCES. THEY'RE THEY'RE GOING TO TELL [56:25] YOU. CAN we agree on that? [56:28] No. [56:30] Sure. [56:30] Okay. So once they lead you in a [56:32] direction, right, I I my uh I'm just [56:36] curious about how you help people with [56:37] finances. The next question should be, [56:39] fantastic. Can you tell me what you're [56:41] struggling with today regarding [56:44] finances? [56:45] Now I'm in the problem. See what I'm [56:47] saying? If I asked them, are you happy [56:49] with it? You're hosed. You're done. [56:53] Did that help? [56:55] Certainly for an inbound lead uh usually [56:57] with an outbound. [56:57] Okay. outbound, then you need to lead [57:00] with the problem. So, in outbound, I'm [57:01] going to say, uh, hey, you know, so and [57:03] so, um, it is not uncommon for us to see [57:06] people in marriages struggle with, um, [57:09] resolving conflict, particularly around [57:11] finance. Here are two of the three [57:12] things that always trip up couples. [57:13] Boom, boom, boom, boom. Does that sound [57:15] familiar? If so, I'd love to be able to [57:17] have a chance to talk about how we solve [57:19] those and get you back on track. [57:21] And as I said, it's not perfect, but I'm [57:22] not really worried about it. Do I keep [57:24] digging or do I move on to a new topic? [57:26] Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You [57:29] you're you're moving the goalpost. So, [57:31] you just said to me that's great for [57:34] inbound. [57:37] So, again, hear me. [57:41] Stop asking questions that where they [57:43] can say, "I'm okay with finances." [57:48] Stop asking those questions. Okay? [57:51] Instead, you want to ask them about [57:52] what's going on, not an opinion. [57:55] Okay, whatever it is. And then if you [57:57] threw those questions, [57:59] everything is good on their answers. Oh, [58:01] I've saved a million dollars. Oh, I [58:02] never have to worry about money again. [58:04] Oh, oh, oh, we never fight. We never do. [58:05] Okay, great. So, let me ask you this [58:07] question now as it relates to intimacy [58:10] as it relates to Can you walk me through [58:12] that? How frequently, you know, um, uh, [58:15] blah blah blah. I don't got to be [58:16] careful on this, right? How blah blah [58:17] blah. And listen to the answers. [58:20] Stop asking the question, "What do they [58:24] think about?" That's what's getting you [58:26] in trouble. Are you hearing me now? [58:29] Cool. Yep. I like it. [58:30] Are you sure? [58:31] That. [58:32] Okay. Yes. Good. Good. Good. Good. Okay. [58:34] Um Abdullah and then we'll take one more [58:36] after Abdullah and I will let everybody [58:38] go. [58:39] Great job though. Great, great job, [58:41] Jonathan. [58:43] So, Kenan, uh to go back to your point [58:44] of like what was different about this [58:46] call. [58:46] Yeah. Um, I think one of the biggest [58:48] things was you were actually processing [58:50] what they were saying rather than [58:51] listening to what they were saying. One [58:53] of the things that I've struggled with [58:55] when it comes to curiosity is I get [58:58] curious about the wrong things. [59:00] Oh. So to give to give you a very [59:03] specific example is um like this was a [59:07] few months back and I noticed this issue [59:09] where somebody like I would I would say [59:11] like what's going on in your [59:12] organization today that made you want to [59:14] look at our company for example and they [59:16] would start talking and they would start [59:18] going well you know we really need this [59:19] we really need this we really need this [59:21] we really need this and they would start [59:23] like listing off features and stuff and [59:25] I would become curious about like how [59:27] they would be using the features rather [59:28] than trying to understand why those [59:31] features were important or like is that [59:33] because you're not able to do this or [59:36] you're not able to do that. I became [59:38] curious about the wrong thing. I became [59:39] curious about like the solution. [59:41] Whereas with you like your whole brain [59:44] was like I why do you even need the [59:46] feature in the first place and [59:47] everything was just going back to that [59:49] and that was so interesting to see. [59:53] You nailed it and I you did a great job [59:55] of self assessment. Right. A lot of [59:57] people do this. So, I used to do a I [59:59] still do a lot of role play, but you can [60:01] imagine we're pushing more of it more to [60:02] AI Keenan, but um I would do these role [60:05] plays and I would tell them something [60:06] like and they do exactly what you did. [60:07] So, tell me how you doing this and how [60:09] do you process this and do you do it [60:10] manually? And I'm like, where are you [60:12] going? You don't even know why I have a [60:14] problem. You're just going right to the [60:16] what's called process or root causes. [60:18] Don't go to root causes right away. Go [60:20] to the problem and why is the problem [60:21] existing? Um or why is the why do I have [60:24] a problem? What is sorry, what is the [60:25] problem, right? And how is it affecting [60:27] me? and then start asking the root cause [60:29] questions. So, great observation. Well [60:31] done. You know what to do now. Great [60:33] job. [60:34] YEAH. LOOK OUT SELLER. [60:38] OKAY. Uh any one last question? [60:45] All right, everybody. Thank you very [60:48] much. Was it helpful? [60:52] Beautiful. [60:53] Very 100%. [60:55] All right, listen everybody. Go get [60:56] yourself gapped up AI Keenan. Tell [60:59] everybody on LinkedIn, please share what [61:01] this experience was like on LinkedIn. I [61:02] will post this on LinkedIn here shortly [61:04] when it's done. Uh and it'll be on [61:07] obviously in YouTube, etc., etc. But [61:10] thank you. Uh Gap Prospecting before [61:12] don't sign up for GAP prospecting. Be [61:14] the first. Be the first. Tell your [61:16] company to pay for it. I don't care. But [61:17] you don't want to miss it. It's going to [61:18] be sick. Typical ASG gap method. You're [61:22] going to be blown away. So with that [61:24] everybody, thank you very much. You guys [61:26] know what I'm going to say. Peace. I'm [61:28] out. [61:31] So I go get it. [61:32] Get it. Hate means I do something.

===FILE=== hhcHY4_CB0A - 782 Keenan Talks GAP Selling - The (Uncensored) Sales Madness Interview.txt
https://youtu.be/hhcHY4_CB0A
782: Keenan Talks GAP Selling - The (Uncensored) Sales Madness Interview
[0:00] new alarm bells ringing tonight on the
[0:02] corona virus outbreak in this country
[0:04] doctors say the virus is spread through
[0:07] droplets when someone coughs or sneezes
[0:08] and I think the business community it's
[0:10] in their interest that people actually
[0:12] stay home and stop the spread for a
[0:15] business that can allow more employees
[0:18] to telecommute we want you to do that hi
[0:23] friends i'm andy paul host of the sales
[0:26] enablement podcast and i want to
[0:28] encourage you to listen to my brand new
[0:29] special six-part podcast mini series
[0:32] titled selling with purpose the team
[0:35] behind sales enablement podcast and i
[0:37] put together this incredible series of
[0:39] inspiring conversations exploring what
[0:42] it means to sell with a mission greater
[0:43] than just hitting your numbers in this
[0:46] era of Cova nineteen and beyond so tune
[0:49] in to hear from world-class enterprise
[0:50] sales leaders and learn how their six
[0:52] companies will close fifty billion
[0:54] dollars selling remotely see how they've
[0:57] supported essential workers with the
[0:59] products and services they need to stay
[1:00] safe and thrive during this time of
[1:02] crisis
[1:05] subscribe to selling with purpose now on
[1:07] Apple podcasts Spotify stitcher or
[1:10] wherever you listen to podcasts guided
[1:18] selling from wing DNA makes your entire
[1:21] sales team more effective by revealing
[1:23] exactly what reps should do and when to
[1:25] do it guided selling works by
[1:27] transforming sales data into a curated
[1:29] list of prioritized sales actions so in
[1:32] reps start their day they'll never again
[1:34] wonder which prospects and accounts are
[1:36] hot inbound leads to reach out to next
[1:38] guided selling even shifts reps priority
[1:41] in response to real-time buying signals
[1:44] finally even new reps can sell like
[1:46] seasoned ones let ring DNA be your guide
[1:49] to success learn more at ring DNA com
[1:52] slash guided selling that's ring DNA
[1:55] calm slash guided selling hi friends
[2:05] welcome to the sales enablement podcast
[2:07] I'm your host Andy Paul now today I have
[2:10] a special episode for you
[2:12] I saw with Keenan as part of my
[2:13] interview series with the four other
[2:15] semi-finalists of ring DNA sales Madness
[2:18] bracket challenge competition the other
[2:20] semi-finalists being jeb blunt Mike
[2:22] Weinberg and Paul Smith now for those of
[2:25] you those of you excuse me who didn't
[2:27] participate ring DNA matched up 64 of
[2:30] the most popular sales books of all time
[2:31] and we matched them up in a March
[2:33] Madness style bracket competition and
[2:36] then we asked you to vote on your
[2:39] favorite sales book over the course of
[2:41] several weeks thousands and thousands of
[2:42] people voted and the books by these four
[2:45] authors were crowned the top four
[2:47] favorite sales books as a result so
[2:49] today
[2:50] Keenan joins me to talk about his book
[2:51] gap selling which was one of the two
[2:53] finalists the other being fanatical
[2:55] prospecting by jeb blonde and so you
[2:58] hear me ask kenan why gap selling has
[2:59] resonated with so many sellers become so
[3:01] popular as a result
[3:06] Keenen welcome what's up baby
[3:08] thank you for having me glad to be here
[3:10] Oh pleasure to have you so we caught you
[3:12] on vacation right stay occasionally yes
[3:14] I came out to Manhattan Beach for the
[3:16] summer to just I don't know change up
[3:19] the scenery before I not a bad place to
[3:21] be
[3:21] yeah no no surfers and bass surfers that
[3:28] was part of the reason to learn like the
[3:30] ultimate life goal is to do this every
[3:31] summer moving on here forward so I'll
[3:33] ski all winter and then come in surf all
[3:34] summer right oh I've done it a couple
[3:36] times I suck at it so I got a lesson
[3:38] tomorrow morning 8 o'clock with the
[3:39] girls what's the water temperature cold
[3:43] as [ __ ] wetsuits there we go yeah I
[3:46] bought the wetsuits when I got okay
[3:50] so first of all congratulations you are
[3:52] a finalist in bring two days there you
[3:55] go sales man this bracket challenge naps
[3:57] selling with one of the longest
[3:59] subtitles ever giving the customer - yes
[4:01] how problems centric selling increases
[4:03] sales by changing everything you know
[4:04] about relationships overcoming
[4:05] objections closing and price I have to
[4:13] admit this I thought your and get
[4:15] knocked out in the first round by spin
[4:16] selling I thought you know that's an
[4:18] iconic book but then once you not only
[4:21] one but crushed spin selling you
[4:23] eighty-two percent of the vote that
[4:25] first round against been selling I
[4:26] thought potential winner here I was not
[4:30] surprised you made it to the finals at
[4:32] all that waiter what is it about kept
[4:34] selling that's resonated with people so
[4:36] much it's this is the book that's on
[4:37] everybody's lips know it's hard I mean
[4:40] answer that question without feeling
[4:42] like I'm sound like a douchebag
[4:43] cuz it's my book right all right you can
[4:45] brag a little bit that's fine you know I
[4:47] think if I were to sort of with I sort
[4:50] of coalesced what I've been hearing from
[4:51] people right one of the things I've been
[4:53] hearing a lot is people who really
[4:55] appreciate the fact that it it is very
[4:58] direct very straightforward and takes
[5:00] what is normally considered complex
[5:02] topics or theoretical topic to make it
[5:05] very very simple and easy to understand
[5:06] mm-hmm like oh my god I get it now I
[5:08] know what to do and then I think they
[5:10] also appreciate that it's got actual
[5:11] exercises and it doesn't read or or feel
[5:15] like textbook or a traditional busy
[5:18] this book I think people felt they told
[5:20] you stories could walk through but then
[5:22] also it was just tons and tons of actual
[5:24] selling method and then make what to do
[5:27] with that song that but I think that was
[5:28] what I'm hearing a lot and I think the
[5:30] other one was the fact that 'adam it was
[5:33] just it was different right like people
[5:35] could actually alright this is different
[5:37] than what I've been hearing which a lot
[5:39] of the the general notions and and I
[5:41] think people like wait I get it now like
[5:43] I get how this works
[5:45] oh my god it's making sense I see we're
[5:47] wrong like I think it's that's it I
[5:48] think for a lot of people just make
[5:49] light right and they knew what to do
[5:52] with those lights when they went off
[5:53] those light pose well give us examples
[5:55] of what some of those light bulbs are
[5:56] compared to other sales books or
[5:58] business books that might have read so I
[5:59] think the gap in itself the very simple
[6:01] content of the gap within and making
[6:03] people spend time and focus on the
[6:06] current state right it's like what I
[6:08] tell people all the time no one buys
[6:10] anything and no one changes and changing
[6:13] is buying is getting someone to change
[6:15] their current state is untenable and if
[6:18] someone can't associate with their
[6:20] current state to wait this is untenable
[6:22] I can't stay here this doesn't work for
[6:23] me that's a problem then anything else
[6:25] you do is a waste of time but I think it
[6:28] really helped people a lot to
[6:29] crystallize how people buy in what I say
[6:31] all the time and I didn't do a good job
[6:32] in the book is if you look at the gap
[6:34] selling framework current state future
[6:37] state in the gap that aligns with how we
[6:41] actually decide as human beings and
[6:43] everything we do whether it's you know
[6:46] starting the ring DNA March Madness
[6:47] contest whether it's running out and
[6:49] getting something to drink at the store
[6:51] running to the store getting something
[6:52] to eat whether it's whether I want to
[6:53] clean my house right now or not every
[6:55] decision is is done the exact same way
[6:58] and gap selling aligns with that the
[6:59] first thing we do is a card we need to
[7:01] make clean my house right now I really
[7:02] don't want to well let me take a look
[7:04] assess my current state it's a [ __ ] show
[7:06] it stinks and then you think oh and I've
[7:08] got someone coming over that is that's
[7:10] not tenable that's not tenable I have to
[7:13] change it so once I've determined what
[7:15] the change is do I do it now do I do an
[7:17] hour for have someone hired someone to
[7:18] do it do I do just do some of it will
[7:20] they be going into my bedroom
[7:22] all of those are my options right and
[7:24] then based on those options let's figure
[7:25] out which one is best going to give me
[7:27] the desired outcome that I want
[7:29] well gap sewing is exact
[7:32] we designed to sell how we decide to
[7:36] change okay so this is sort of
[7:39] interesting thought process so so this
[7:41] is what were people thinking before so
[7:43] if your seller and if you're thinking
[7:45] yeah my my job is not to help this
[7:47] Custer it wasn't to help this customer
[7:49] cross this gap what was it what was I
[7:53] thinking my sales job was I don't think
[7:55] they were thinking at all like I mean
[7:57] they were thinking they had to sell a
[7:58] product that's why I tell a product
[8:00] centric first problem centric right
[8:02] they abdicated much of the problem
[8:05] solving to the customer and so a lot of
[8:07] salespeople even what's decent sales
[8:09] training would run around and say hey
[8:11] look I've got this phone and it does
[8:13] this and it does that if you have this
[8:14] problem it'll do this and if you have
[8:16] this problem it'll do this if they even
[8:17] did that look at it's got this feature
[8:19] in that feature you can call you kids
[8:20] and you can do this
[8:21] well they don't even know they're gonna
[8:22] have kids they don't make kids of twenty
[8:23] five but they don't like my kids right
[8:25] well they know you can take pictures
[8:27] well I don't really care about the
[8:27] picture I don't go anywhere like they
[8:29] just throw the [ __ ] at you and then they
[8:31] expected the buyer to sit assess okay
[8:33] first throw it right yeah like work
[8:35] through it on their own right yeah
[8:37] that's an excellent book and so start
[8:40] moving on a little bit from thatis is
[8:41] we've gone through this shutdown period
[8:43] you've been in Denver area what did you
[8:47] learn about yourself during this period
[8:48] what was the biggest lesson you learned
[8:49] about yourself during the shutdown now
[8:53] like sitting around starters you do or
[8:55] you don't don't don't be like that you
[9:00] probably knew that I'm kind of lazy I'm
[9:04] kind of lazy and I really need motive
[9:06] like I really need something to get me
[9:07] going I mean I watched way too much
[9:09] freaking television yeah way too much in
[9:11] some areas I did some great stuff in
[9:13] others I think I squandered time but
[9:16] yeah that I'm more lazy than I realized
[9:19] - I mean yeah I mean look I work I've
[9:22] been working as an entrepreneur for
[9:24] years right
[9:25] I mean tell meeting I'm almost I'm in my
[9:27] tenth year that is ill I I started the
[9:31] company by myself just me you know I'm
[9:33] saying so a lot of things I I think I
[9:36] would have learned in this I kind of
[9:37] learned a long time ago when I'm you
[9:39] know got divorced just I had the company
[9:42] sitting at home on a Thursday no kids
[9:45] trying to figure out where my next
[9:47] frickin paychecks gonna come from and I
[9:49] was like oh I better get my [ __ ]
[9:50] together and I learn you know so I ya
[9:53] know it really wasn't that how big is
[9:56] the sales guy Empire now to me yeah
[9:59] we're you know we're now seven figures
[10:02] and five people and handful of you know
[10:06] fat well you four full times and a
[10:08] handful of 1099s that are you know seems
[10:11] to be growing by the day and we're
[10:13] looking to hire another sales person
[10:15] here so be five soon so you know not
[10:18] where I wanted to be but I don't
[10:20] probably never be where I want to be
[10:21] yeah I remember we had this conversation
[10:22] when your first book came out not taught
[10:25] is about building your empire yeah and
[10:27] you made great progress since then so
[10:30] every period of transition brings a lot
[10:32] of changes to it I mean after 9/11 who
[10:35] thought we at all you know have the
[10:37] patience stay online for security and
[10:39] these intrusive checks and so on yet
[10:40] life's going on more people travel than
[10:42] ever because of that or despite that so
[10:45] what are the changes could be in the
[10:47] sales world as a result of what we're
[10:49] going through right now
[10:49] I think this with the exception of
[10:52] certain things that by design or by
[10:54] product can't be sold virtually I think
[10:57] the any concept of outside sales reps is
[11:01] dead I think people are realizing be
[11:04] able to sell this [ __ ] without outside
[11:05] sales reps why are we gonna pay that why
[11:07] we don't linked in the sales cycle like
[11:09] that why we going to take so long to do
[11:10] that mm-hmm I think I think structurally
[11:12] I think structure is where you can see
[11:14] the biggest changes right
[11:15] I think sales teams are the organs I
[11:17] organized around complete virtual
[11:19] selling and and really challenged why
[11:21] they needed outside salespeople I think
[11:23] the other thing that we're gonna see is
[11:24] is well I like to see hmm
[11:27] door is that more emphasis is put on the
[11:30] selling motion organizations really need
[11:32] to stop focusing on the selling motion
[11:34] and how are their sales people literally
[11:36] engaging with their buyers and what are
[11:38] they focused on and when you went
[11:40] through a period where people had very
[11:42] limited amount of money their priority
[11:44] priorities shifted and you're still
[11:46] trying to get them to see value in your
[11:48] product to service you can't do that by
[11:50] saying hey look at my phone right you
[11:52] can't do that but say Andy is such a
[11:53] cool guy you know your son you would a
[11:55] dko yeah
[11:56] Yussef red hair no kidding my mom had
[11:58] red here like you can't try to do this
[12:00] friendly [ __ ] you got to really
[12:02] position yourself in a virtual setting
[12:04] with people you've never met before over
[12:07] a computer screen you got to get them to
[12:09] recognize that yeah you can
[12:11] fundamentally change their business by
[12:13] solving some pesky problems that have
[12:14] been able to solve been able to solve
[12:16] today and that's not that's not how
[12:17] we've done in the past in my opinion
[12:19] most sales people but you stuff make
[12:20] that connection with somebody you so you
[12:22] need trust yes trust not likeability
[12:26] right you know how I feel about this
[12:27] other people like anybody but trust can
[12:29] be done through credibility right like I
[12:32] could get more credibility by asking
[12:34] three or four questions and I'll ever
[12:35] get brassy where you went to college or
[12:37] commiserating on the fact that we're
[12:38] getting old and going great hmm so we
[12:41] got to teach our salespeople to have
[12:42] enough industry knowledge and problem
[12:45] knowledge acumen
[12:47] yeah business acumen and problem
[12:49] knowledge so they can actually have
[12:50] conversations that create credibility
[12:52] with advisor
[12:52] oh hey wait go back what was that talk
[12:55] to me again what that was a great
[12:56] question
[12:57] my favorite statement by buyers my
[12:59] favorite statement even more so than yes
[13:01] is oh that's a great question mm-hmm
[13:05] favorite one so how do we teach acumen I
[13:08] mean if we say this is one of the big
[13:09] changes migrated there going forward is
[13:10] I think the one of the big stumbling
[13:12] blocks is lack of business acumen on the
[13:14] part of sellers is how do we how do we
[13:16] teach that how do we encourage people is
[13:18] that something we teach her people have
[13:20] to learn on their own this is acting me
[13:22] they could teach you in their own I
[13:23] don't want to make it smaller more
[13:24] precise yes exactly but I want your
[13:26] problem acumen all right describe that
[13:28] problem acumen so now what product the
[13:31] service you saw I mean you sell it was
[13:33] designed at some point in time to solve
[13:36] a problem so your ability as a sales
[13:39] organization and as an organization in
[13:41] general is to teach your sales people
[13:43] and everybody involved as much as you
[13:46] can about the problem why the problem
[13:49] exists what the root causes are of the
[13:52] problem how the problem manifests itself
[13:55] the impact the problem can have on an
[13:57] organization etc etc so when you become
[13:59] an expert in the problem you can never
[14:02] have problem conversations and by
[14:06] through problem conversations you
[14:07] develop credit
[14:08] we for understanding why the problem
[14:10] happened how it's impacting them what
[14:12] the root cause of what the potential
[14:14] solutions are etc etc etc and that's how
[14:17] you do a problem compensates too many
[14:19] people try to do business acumen and
[14:20] then their salesman was not talking Oh
[14:22] business issues that do have no impact
[14:24] whatsoever on the [ __ ] you sell yeah
[14:26] they can absolutely blow I think that
[14:27] what you're my problem recommend for me
[14:29] that is business acumen right you have
[14:31] to understand context of the problem the
[14:33] buyer has and and sometimes that context
[14:37] is in the context of well how does this
[14:39] organization make money and sometimes a
[14:42] lot of sellers they don't even
[14:43] understand how a company works yes okay
[14:49] let's pick any product in the world
[14:51] let's and let's be more precise I'll
[14:53] show you why I kinda grimaced you pick
[14:56] it I suck at that picking product call
[15:01] coaching okay call coaching so it is to
[15:05] understand my cell call coaching to
[15:08] understand how a company makes money is
[15:10] important but it is a what I'm gonna say
[15:12] a second with third level of importance
[15:14] because I want to get right down to the
[15:16] problem called poaching call coaching
[15:18] addresses under performing salespeople
[15:21] has a problem right so the more time I
[15:25] can spend and speak to why
[15:27] underperforming why salespeople
[15:29] underperform when it comes to areas of
[15:32] lack and I'm just making this but right
[15:35] I want people to understand the
[15:36] psychology around performance I want
[15:38] understand things about ego around
[15:40] performance I want to understand the
[15:41] importance of communication and how
[15:43] people can accept or deny a
[15:45] communication I want them to understand
[15:48] the concept of self motivation I want
[15:51] them to understand like everything you
[15:52] can when it comes to how people perform
[15:54] by themself how people in food how
[15:56] people learn right that's more important
[15:59] than how your company makes money I can
[16:01] get that in a second a third level okay
[16:03] take that for granted but till simply
[16:06] the things you talk about things you
[16:07] just laid out there requires a ton of
[16:10] curiosity it's self motivation on the
[16:11] part of the rep yeah yes but the cool
[16:14] part I would argue it doesn't if the
[16:17] company does all the research and
[16:19] teaches you that [ __ ] and educates you
[16:21] and all that
[16:22] all used to do is a basic discovery know
[16:24] what you're looking for large companies
[16:27] really know because they don't know the
[16:29] problems they saw busy caller we get
[16:34] this great calling software it's the
[16:36] greatest thing in the world and make
[16:38] your reps better they sell the future
[16:39] state all they do is sell the future
[16:41] state Andy it'll make your apps better
[16:43] or make you more money they'll be more
[16:44] productive better relationships they
[16:46] stop they forget to stop and ask for the
[16:48] root cause and get into the problem what
[16:50] probably saw and why are these problems
[16:52] exist in the first place and what
[16:53] perpetuates the problems no matter where
[16:56] your sales team is working from ring DNA
[16:58] can enable them to be more productive
[17:00] and effective ring DNA offers a complete
[17:03] platform for remote sales teams that
[17:05] gives reps the tools they need to
[17:07] connect with more prospects and create
[17:09] more opportunities and drive more
[17:11] revenue no matter where they're working
[17:12] from and managers can get real-time
[17:15] insight they need to coach reps to
[17:17] success win more deals from anywhere on
[17:20] the planet with ring DNA learn more
[17:22] about how ring DNA helps remote teams at
[17:24] ring DNA comm / remote work that's ring
[17:28] DNA comm / remote work new alarm bells
[17:33] ringing tonight on the corona virus
[17:35] outbreak in this country doctors say the
[17:37] virus is spread through droplets when
[17:39] someone coughs or sneezes and I think
[17:40] the business community it's in their
[17:42] interest that people actually stay home
[17:44] and stop the spread for a business that
[17:47] can allow more employees to telecommute
[17:50] we want you to do that
[17:54] hi friends I'm Andy Paul host of the
[17:57] sales enablement podcast and I want to
[17:59] encourage you to listen to my brand new
[18:01] special six-part podcast miniseries
[18:04] titled
[18:04] selling with purpose the team behind
[18:07] sales enablement podcast and I put
[18:09] together this incredible series of
[18:11] inspiring conversations exploring what
[18:13] it means to sell with a mission greater
[18:15] than just hitting your numbers in this
[18:17] era of Cova 19 and beyond so tune in to
[18:20] hear from world class enterprise sales
[18:22] leaders and learn how their six
[18:24] companies will close fifty billion
[18:26] dollars selling remotely see how they've
[18:29] supported essential workers with the
[18:30] products and services they need to stay
[18:32] safe and thrive during this time of
[18:34] crisis subscribe to selling with a
[18:38] purpose now on Apple podcasts Spotify
[18:40] goes stitcher or wherever you listen to
[18:43] the podcast so let's take this a little
[18:50] bit different direction then so part of
[18:52] your business is or has been its
[18:54] recruiting right so is the profile in
[18:59] the new normal the next normal is the
[19:01] profile of what a salesperson needs to
[19:02] be in a purely virtual world is that
[19:04] changing because I have been such a
[19:11] rebel in a row when it comes to the
[19:15] traditional hiring for salespeople
[19:16] mm-hm I sort of ignored how people in
[19:20] duo made assumptions so based on my
[19:22] assumptions it had better change right
[19:24] I'm tired another person says to me when
[19:26] they come to us up and refuses we need
[19:28] to find some more SAS experience I'm not
[19:29] punch him in the nose the SAS experience
[19:32] seriously what I mean really that's
[19:35] basically SAS is a cloud-based
[19:37] application that can be accessed
[19:39] anywhere in the world how does SAS
[19:41] experience help you sell I mean stop so
[19:45] from my opinion it just needs to be what
[19:47] I've always thought it was and yes it
[19:48] needs to zero in on people's curiosity
[19:52] levels their business acumen their
[19:55] critical thinking skills their Drive
[19:58] it's almost almost almost all soft
[20:01] skills
[20:01] and then the hard skills are your
[20:04] performance and your billet articulate
[20:05] why and how you've got
[20:07] done right I don't care if it drives me
[20:10] crazy
[20:11] like I will outsell 99.9% of most people
[20:13] anything you want to teach like anything
[20:15] give me medical sales give me freaking
[20:16] phones give me gum give me anything and
[20:19] I'll also 99% of most people but yet if
[20:22] I didn't if I wasn't Keenan and I didn't
[20:24] have kept selling and I went and tried
[20:26] to get a job in medical sales we go
[20:28] you've never done it with other people
[20:30] done you idiot you just passed I'm the
[20:32] best salesman you've ever had so how are
[20:35] people gonna assess this when you say
[20:36] how they break out of the mold and say
[20:38] yeah this is a person with great
[20:39] potential / what you're talking about
[20:42] you've got to build a new criteria a
[20:44] decision criteria or a profile for what
[20:46] a great salesperson looks like not a
[20:48] great medical salesperson that [ __ ] can
[20:50] be taught yeah first three six months
[20:52] depending on how complex it is I might
[20:54] get my ass handed to me as I'm trying to
[20:55] learn the complexities of a
[20:57] cardiovascular blah blah blah but once I
[21:00] learned that [ __ ] you're done like I'm
[21:02] gonna crush everybody everybody so stop
[21:05] so it's the it's the decision criteria
[21:07] the hiring criteria is all jacked up
[21:09] what stupid stuff go there like I need a
[21:11] SAS person with ten years and medical
[21:13] experience and degree blah blah blah who
[21:15] cares not agree percent I was I was a
[21:19] history major I sold satellite
[21:20] communication system something I don't
[21:24] know well I taught myself what I need it
[21:28] now
[21:28] yes part of the problem Andy is is part
[21:33] of the reason they do those things
[21:34] because those are easy right
[21:36] so is I think it's too easy like it's
[21:38] that's easy checkbox Oh medical oh you
[21:41] know 10 years is French yep check Cosby
[21:43] yep check they made quota you know every
[21:46] time and they're great hires I said that
[21:52] right it's a lot harder to know how to
[21:55] interview for qualify for and uncover
[21:59] somebody's intellectual curiosity
[22:01] somebody's business acumen somebody's
[22:05] problem centric acumen right it's much
[22:07] more difficult so they just punt it I
[22:09] don't know how to do it well so tell us
[22:11] how do you do it because I know these
[22:13] things are important to you we've talked
[22:14] about this before it's all over your
[22:15] first book how do you how do you how do
[22:17] you do it so one of the first things I
[22:18] do and this is the hard part about
[22:20] this is most candidates fail at it so I
[22:22] literally have to stat once I get a
[22:24] small Koopa did some of it I have to
[22:26] take a shot start in the dark because
[22:27] most even screwed up the very first
[22:29] thing I do and I'm interviewing what
[22:31] questions do you have for me like none
[22:34] and I'm like no well here's a minute
[22:36] like what is many questions you ask I'm
[22:39] here to ask as many questions for you to
[22:41] help you understand and they might ask
[22:42] one stupid high-level question and then
[22:44] they want me to ask the questions first
[22:45] sign right there
[22:46] right I'm literally begging you to do a
[22:49] discovery with me and you don't do it
[22:50] right the second thing I do is within
[22:52] and some people probably say this isn't
[22:54] HR supportive but I'm very careful how I
[22:56] do it I say I'd like you to pick a
[23:01] project that you did something you
[23:03] started all on your own and I want you
[23:07] to tell me what was the project why'd
[23:09] you start it what was the motivation
[23:10] what we desired outcomes and what
[23:12] happens mm-hmm and it can be personal
[23:14] professional I don't care and I shut up
[23:16] and if someone has never started
[23:19] something
[23:19] [ __ ] you you I'm not hiring you you're
[23:21] out I don't give a [ __ ] like literally
[23:22] especially eight my eight kids young
[23:25] kids I'm a little dizzy but if you start
[23:26] talking 30 35 40 45 year old people and
[23:29] you've never ever started something at
[23:32] work in your community or anything
[23:34] you're useless I got no time for you and
[23:37] the reason I asked that question is
[23:38] because think about what it takes what
[23:40] why'd you start it they should say I
[23:42] have a shower problem this bothered me I
[23:44] didn't like this this wasn't getting
[23:45] done right a problem and then I'm like
[23:47] well what did you do this is the
[23:48] solution to the problem how did you
[23:50] execute it that question tells me so
[23:52] much about business acumen
[23:53] problem-solving Drive creative thinking
[23:55] so that gets me 80% of the way right
[23:58] there I love it I love it and yet
[24:02] instead of doing that as people go
[24:04] through and do assessments right off the
[24:07] ship personality assessments I don't
[24:09] touch that [ __ ] I look I might have been
[24:11] great when I take him they fit me but I
[24:14] had a personality assessment tell me I
[24:16] wasn't good for a job once and then
[24:19] somehow I got called I forget I got a
[24:21] callback to that job what am I crushed
[24:22] it I was like I'm not doing this like
[24:24] that ya know I don't like that random
[24:28] stuff sorry yeah I took one a couple
[24:30] years ago was I had a guest on the show
[24:32] and he wanted me to take his and
[24:34] he calls back after assessing re trying
[24:36] to game it no oh well according this you
[24:41] shouldn't be in say like okay there you
[24:45] go yeah you get it
[24:47] alright well Jim rod time but room boys
[24:51] who Keenan sorry oh I know you knew me
[24:55] way back in the day behind no I know
[24:57] when was optional now it's no longer
[25:00] optional yes likewise so thanks for a
[25:08] time okay friends that's it for this
[25:13] episode first of all I want to thank you
[25:14] for taking the time to listen I'm so
[25:16] grateful for your support of this show
[25:18] and I wanna thank Keenan for sharing his
[25:20] insights with us today if you enjoyed
[25:23] this episode please subscribe to this
[25:24] podcast sales enablement with Andy Paul
[25:26] on iTunes Spotify or wherever you listen
[25:29] to this podcast if you could also leave
[25:31] us a rating or review and let us know
[25:33] how we're doing we'd appreciate it you
[25:35] can do that all on your phone and less
[25:37] than a minute as soon as this podcast is
[25:39] over so thanks for your help
[25:40] remember again connect with me on
[25:42] LinkedIn or drop me a message if any
[25:44] questions about anything we discussed on
[25:45] the show so thank you so much for
[25:47] investing your time to join me today
[25:48] until next time I'm your host Andy Paul
[25:51] good selling everyone
[25:54] 
[25:57] 
[25:58] 
[26:25] ringg DNA is the leading sales
[26:27] enablement platform that uses AI to help
[26:30] scale business growth trusted by the top
[26:33] companies across the globe ring DNA
[26:35] offers a suite of powerful tools for
[26:37] every sales role during DNA dialer
[26:40] radically improved sales productivity
[26:42] and call connection rates while guided
[26:45] selling helps reps know exactly what to
[26:47] do and when to do it
[26:49] conversation AI uses artificial
[26:51] intelligence to surface the most
[26:53] impactful coaching opportunities in real
[26:55] time so no matter where your team is
[26:58] working from the ring DNA platform can
[27:00] help them exponentially increase call
[27:02] connections opportunities and revenue
[27:05] learn more at ring DNA comm / platform
[27:08] that's ring DNA comm / platform

===FILE=== j8hCPVitGEM - Gap Sell Keenan 54.txt
https://youtu.be/j8hCPVitGEM
Gap Sell Keenan #54

[0:00] i was going to go easy on you not to [0:01] hurt your feelings you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] irritate [0:03] the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] out of me [0:05] i'm only going to get this one chance [0:09] it's just a feeling i've got like [0:11] something's about to happen but i don't [0:13] know what [0:14] all right here go get the money [0:16] so i'll go get it [0:18] hate me [0:20] hey what's going on peeps welcome to gap [0:24] selling [0:26] 54 [0:28] gap selling 54. so you know what it's [0:30] about this is a real sales call right [0:33] this is a real sales call as a real [0:35] person who has a real product today's [0:37] guest is from pickle i'll bring him on [0:39] in a second so it's a real sales call so [0:42] if this person can find a problem i have [0:44] or my company has [0:46] we [0:46] will buy [0:48] if not [0:50] well you all know what happens all right [0:52] so [0:53] let me bring my man in here [0:56] and let's get him here and i can [0:58] introduce you all to [1:00] my man commander did i say that right [1:02] brother [1:03] yep come on you got it [1:05] come on all right come on up welcome [1:07] commanders with pickle everybody and [1:09] they help people capture important [1:11] elements of video but i'll let him tell [1:13] you what he does so that he can start [1:14] and take off so the floor is yours my [1:17] man [1:18] awesome so just quick overview right [1:20] before we get started uh we work with [1:22] sales people sales people have a lot of [1:24] virtual meetings over zoom and and [1:25] similar platforms [1:27] like keenan said we we capture and share [1:28] key moments and insights from those [1:30] meetings so helping reps [1:32] um at the end they stay organized [1:33] capture every detail understand their [1:35] buyers better [1:36] find real problems [1:38] and uh at the end they close more deals [1:40] win deals faster close bigger deals [1:42] all right [1:43] so [1:45] yep [1:46] appreciate you having me um so [1:48] i have a few questions questions have [1:50] you read the book [1:51] i've read the book uh i've read the book [1:53] and listened to the book [1:55] and all right that's good that's a good [1:56] start [1:57] we tried to do a little bit of [1:58] workshopping internally just with our [2:00] own sales team but [2:02] maybe not to the level of actually [2:03] hiring you [2:04] all right well we'll see time will tell [2:06] so i'm excited i'm excited for you baby [2:08] all right all right i appreciate you [2:09] getting away bro well looking at your [2:10] sales team right is it only today is it [2:13] only christian is he the only [2:14] salesperson yeah yeah we lost one of our [2:16] guys i just had an interview today um [2:18] okay so we're hiring two months ago okay [2:20] two more people i'm sorry [2:22] two months ago i saw i saw this right so [2:24] you had another account executive two [2:25] months ago [2:26] didn't work out um he was there a lot [2:29] more than two months ago he left about a [2:31] month ago he's been he's been here for [2:34] close to you seven eight nine months [2:35] close to a year but not quite [2:38] okay cool but just higher if anybody [2:40] wants to sell for us and you want to [2:41] sell for asg hit us up i got you [2:45] guess some of the best training there is [2:47] yeah right yeah exactly i actually had a [2:51] conversation with christian a few months [2:52] ago um and he was able to workshop a [2:54] little bit with us so um i can vouch for [2:56] that [2:57] uh so just hired is that what you said [2:59] just hired or currently hiring [3:01] currently hiring yeah we're trying to [3:03] get two more [3:04] two more okay uh [3:07] very soon i'm i'm guessing right like [3:08] what does timeline look like on [3:09] wednesday the better when i get the [3:10] right one what i won't i will not hire [3:12] out of speed [3:14] i will get the right one or i'll wait [3:15] okay [3:16] um i'm curious when you do hire right uh [3:20] for example when you hired christian [3:21] tell me about the process for onboarding [3:23] and how long it took him to ram [3:29] i would say [3:31] define ramp [3:32] to find ram uh get to full productivity [3:35] get to producing on a monthly basis at [3:38] the numbers that you want to be seeing [3:40] about six months [3:42] six months and he's been there he's been [3:43] there for a while now right year and a [3:44] half plus [3:46] um [3:47] probably yeah about a year and a half [3:49] maybe that's a good question yeah over a [3:51] year [3:52] yeah [3:53] very cool um and i think yeah [3:57] christian's kind of cool because he [3:58] doesn't come from an ex necessarily [4:00] extensive sales background [4:02] a little more fresh but he comes in and [4:04] um you know now he's a little more [4:06] tenured so that's cool to see yep uh [4:08] does he report directly to you or does [4:10] he report to brady [4:12] reporter both of you okay brady still [4:15] fire organization but to brady um yep [4:18] how about his meetings right how many [4:19] meetings is he holding in a typical week [4:22] oh that's a good [4:25] report four five six or seven i don't [4:27] know that's an interesting question i'd [4:28] have to check it changes regularly [4:31] yeah i'm sure there's some ebbs and [4:32] flows um yeah [4:35] okay [4:36] and uh how many how many do you join how [4:39] many of his meetings do you no [4:41] okay how many does people watch [4:43] exact vision though we use exec vision [4:44] and watch it on the back side so yeah [4:46] either great i will watch his calls [4:48] after the fact [4:50] okay so you and brady they're recorded [4:51] they go they go into exec vision and [4:54] brady will watch them after the fact um [4:59] can you tell me about the process for [5:00] forgetting for exec vision [5:03] as far as like integration [5:04] i guess process for [5:06] he's holding these meetings how do they [5:08] get to the exact vision then how do they [5:09] get to you [5:10] it does it automatically [5:12] so exec vision has a plug-in with zoom [5:15] he has a zoom call it automatically gets [5:17] sent to sent to exec vision and then [5:19] there's a then he assigns it to be [5:20] watched or tells us in slack to go watch [5:22] it and then we go watch it [5:24] okay [5:25] um [5:26] has has christian ever spoken to you [5:28] about the zoom integration not working [5:30] him needing to use the zoom record [5:32] download upload [5:34] figure that out and then send it to you [5:38] um that's a good question i i think once [5:42] zoom wasn't working [5:44] um [5:45] [Music] [5:48] okay he says nah he just answered the [5:49] question for you i have to upload [5:50] manually if i want to make sure it gets [5:52] in there so he's not confident that [5:53] always gets in there [5:55] it's supposed to get in there [5:56] automatically why it's not that's a good [5:58] question [5:59] um [6:00] okay so he's on chat does that do [6:02] does that take him a while [6:04] you know how long it takes him or uh i [6:06] wouldn't think it would take more than [6:07] five or ten minutes it's pretty easy [6:13] um i don't think he does or is it kind [6:15] of i would guess right i would guess [6:17] he's picking and choosing right [6:19] because he doesn't want to do it every [6:20] time he's just gonna this is a good call [6:22] i want to get this over [6:23] yep [6:24] um okay [6:26] um let's see [6:28] and then [6:30] are you reviewing calls that he sends [6:31] you then right and brady or or do you [6:34] kind of proactively jump in and say hey [6:35] i'm going to grab a few calls i want to [6:36] review something no no [6:39] and and is he sending [6:41] what's the what's kind of the if you can [6:43] tell me the [6:45] the reasoning there right is it he's [6:46] seeking out coaching [6:48] is it you're trying to sell and you're [6:50] going to be joining meeting some [6:52] subsequent meetings [6:53] it's for coaching [6:55] okay it's for coaching he's asking for [6:57] for some feedback on [6:59] yep maybe specific things for this [7:00] specific call yep um okay very cool [7:03] switching gears a little bit you doubled [7:05] the business last year [7:07] despite covert and everything i believe [7:10] i think i saw in a previous video um [7:12] the goal is to double this year as well [7:14] yep [7:16] okay uh i know actually [7:20] no the goal the goal this year is to to [7:22] grow sixty percent [7:24] sixty percent okay yep [7:27] but we've already we're already halfway [7:28] to our goal after the first quarter [7:32] so pacing pacing beyond [7:34] um [7:36] so it sounds like it sounds like there's [7:39] no problem with close rate [7:41] there's no plot problem it's [7:43] you know average sale price for example [7:46] no average sales price is pretty it's [7:47] actually yeah i know we have no problem [7:49] with average sales price and no problem [7:50] with close rate [7:52] uh can you tell me what kind of sales [7:53] cycle how long are these deals taking [7:56] um i can actually tell you well roughly [7:59] exactly so the average sales cycle right [8:01] now i believe is 40 days to 45 days [8:04] um [8:04] what's more interesting though is the [8:06] deals that close their average sales [8:08] cycle i believe is 33 34 35 days the [8:12] ones that don't close [8:14] the average sales cycle to a loss [8:17] right generally speaking is almost [8:21] 75 or 80 days so what we're learning is [8:24] if the more it gets past the 30 day mark [8:26] the less probable they'll close [8:29] yeah you know if it gets that that long [8:31] then [8:32] it's probably not going to happen the [8:34] stats will say it's probably not going [8:35] to happen [8:38] i'm going to give everybody a hint um [8:40] when it comes to this though the longer [8:43] something sits in the sales cycle [8:45] the more they're subconsciously telling [8:48] you [8:49] they can live with the problem [8:52] let that sink in for a second so he i [8:54] just did a training for a company that [8:56] sells million dollar deals and they're [8:57] like yeah but the big ones take a lot [8:59] longer like yeah i'll give you they'll [9:00] take a lot longer but they shouldn't [9:02] take two or three years because i don't [9:04] care how big [9:05] the the deal is they're living with that [9:08] problem [9:10] so whether it's a five million dollar [9:12] deal or a five dollar deal in order to [9:14] change until they change they're living [9:16] with the problem you're trying to solve [9:17] so the longer it goes the more they tell [9:19] you they're comfortable living with the [9:21] problem which then tells you the [9:22] probability of them closing is low [9:24] because they're like [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] it we've been [9:25] living with it this long we can keep [9:26] living with it [9:28] yeah that makes sense [9:30] um [9:31] cool so [9:33] already halfway to goal for the year you [9:34] want to grow 160 percent you're already [9:35] halfway there it sounds like correct me [9:38] if i'm wrong you will hit the goal [9:39] without hiring two more sales people [9:41] or do you need these next videos [9:43] people to hit it's possible one of my [9:46] one of my issues is our outbound is not [9:48] doing as well as we'd like and i've said [9:50] that a couple times right and i think [9:51] there's a whole bunch of reasons but our [9:53] inbound is so strong that we're able to [9:55] keep growing and growing and growing [9:57] but a minute if for some reason that [9:58] inbound slows down [10:00] right i can't afford i can't a [10:01] predictability into the inbound the [10:03] inbound could slow down drastically and [10:05] we could find ourselves just making a [10:06] yearly number and not blowing it out of [10:08] the water you just never know when it [10:09] comes inbound because we haven't created [10:11] a process that you can trust to rely [10:14] on right [10:16] what is the percentage there inbound [10:17] album is it 90 10 [10:19] not yeah probably 95 not 95.5 90 10. [10:23] 95.5 so and christian he's using you [10:25] know outreach tools like that sequencing [10:28] campaigns and and that is is that just [10:30] not leading to meetings where it's [10:32] leading to meetings [10:34] i think we're doing a good job to be [10:35] perfectly frank um look chris is really [10:37] busy um [10:39] now especially now uh trying to manage [10:41] all the deals in all the inbound et [10:42] cetera when there was two of them they [10:44] they tried different sequences and [10:46] things like that out of fairness i think [10:48] we probably could have done some more [10:49] work as leadership to help with the [10:50] sequences um [10:52] and add more uh gap selling elements to [10:54] them um but we have what's called a [10:56] freedom box here and i'll let people do [10:57] things themselves and if it's not [10:59] working they get to try something else [11:00] and try something else i just think we [11:02] haven't provided the support cover that [11:04] christian and mark needed um and [11:07] they just they could lean and make [11:09] almost a number by the inbound itself so [11:11] we're looking at making some changes [11:12] around how we drive towards outbound [11:14] which includes an outbound only sales [11:15] person [11:17] okay how about sdr then somebody [11:20] somebody just doing top of funnel [11:22] no no [11:24] no but you just you want an account [11:25] executive they can hunt [11:27] can [11:27] also drive out on business okay [11:30] um [11:32] let's see so come on i'm gonna give you [11:33] a hint here because you're looking at [11:34] questions the minute i see you start [11:36] looking at questions is telling me [11:37] you've lost sight of where you are and [11:39] where you're trying to go so here's the [11:41] what problem you've everybody sees me do [11:43] this all the time right and so it just [11:46] reinforces how difficult gap selling is [11:48] people and how much they don't [11:49] understand it when some people tell me [11:50] oh this is the same as spin and this is [11:52] the same as absolute [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] because [11:54] people don't understand how we're [11:55] defining the current state how we're [11:57] defining the gap how defining those [11:59] things [11:59] what business problem are you trying to [12:02] find [12:04] well i think that onboarding takes too [12:06] much time so you're going to hire two [12:08] sales people it's going to take them too [12:09] long to ramp to productivity and that's [12:11] going to that's going to cost you some [12:13] revenue it's going to cost you some time [12:15] those are all root causes [12:19] of not driving [12:21] enough for as much revenue as you want [12:23] okay so all right so i can so the minute [12:26] you i started talking about the um [12:29] uh [12:30] the fact that that if for some reason [12:32] inbound slows down or we don't get these [12:34] people hired we may find ourselves in [12:37] that position you should have doubled [12:38] down on that and started digging into [12:41] that [12:42] right that's where you should have went [12:43] you just kind of left it i threw it out [12:45] there then you left it and you looked to [12:46] your sheet to see what else you [12:47] questioned you would ask me right it's [12:48] coming it's coming [12:51] yeah right so stay in the conversation [12:53] so you still haven't really told me what [12:55] pro so what problem [12:57] are you trying to find that's the [12:59] problem make it more succinct what [13:00] problem you trying to find [13:03] uh problem being you may [13:07] not hit your [13:09] 160 percent growth [13:11] okay yep okay okay if you stay status [13:14] quo today you don't hire two reps and [13:15] get them wrapped quickly you may not hit [13:17] your 160 percent i'm sure you'd like to [13:20] crush that as well so yeah even if you [13:23] hire these two people [13:24] um [13:27] so there's a risk basically the faster [13:28] you can get them get them in and get [13:30] them going the more the farther past [13:32] goal you will get yes so from that [13:34] perspective i'll give you that's a [13:35] problem that's a risk-based problem [13:36] because it hasn't happened yet okay so [13:38] what you're trying to say is you could [13:40] be at risk of not making your number [13:42] um without getting these new people on [13:44] so i'll go with that so there's one what [13:45] other one is that the only one you're [13:47] trying to find [13:48] uh i've got another one that's tied tied [13:50] to that right but you're gonna hire [13:52] these people and you don't have all of [13:53] your christians calls in exec vision [13:57] i think that i think that's a problem [13:58] because he's up he's picking and [14:00] choosing which ones to upload uh [14:03] you would have a lot more insights a lot [14:05] more data if you just had all of them in [14:06] there for him for you and for the new [14:09] round why would i have so why would i [14:10] have more [14:11] now you're into the solution stage [14:12] you're already going to solution but all [14:14] right i'll play along what why [14:17] why would it be so much better have all [14:19] his calls in there [14:21] uh i think there's insights on on uh [14:25] on calls that aren't in there um it's [14:28] hard to say what those might be right [14:29] but it's maybe like uh um [14:31] missed opportunities [14:33] uh [14:34] questions uh that were asked that you [14:36] know the best questions right now [14:39] right now he uploads one a week right [14:42] now i'm not as good at getting to them [14:43] as brady is but he uploads one a week [14:45] and we watch that at least one a week [14:48] if not two [14:50] why would we watch more how much time do [14:52] you think we can spend on this [14:54] well i mean that's a that's a problem as [14:55] well right a 30-minute meeting to watch [14:57] a 30-minute meeting takes 30 minutes um [15:00] one and a half okay there's bandwidth [15:02] issues there yeah i put one and a half [15:04] um anyways it takes too long [15:06] uh [15:08] this is solution still but i think you [15:10] need a way to review calls quicker and [15:12] easier okay but why do i need a way like [15:13] what i think christian christian would [15:15] benefit from reviewing his meetings as [15:18] well right like having i think he [15:19] doesn't review his meetings right now [15:21] why do you think what what makes you [15:22] think he doesn't [15:24] uh because they're not an exec vision so [15:26] if he's just recording on zoom then he's [15:28] watching an mp4 [15:30] without [15:32] other tools to go through that quicker [15:34] and [15:35] so [15:36] majority of people the vast majority [15:38] will not just sit down and watch it [15:40] okay still watching [15:42] via just an mp4 right [15:45] it is um but anyway so yeah also you've [15:47] had other reps in the past this this is [15:50] a separate problem but i think [15:51] potentially you've had mark [15:53] other sales people in the past [15:56] have you considered [15:58] that [15:59] their turnover is because [16:02] maybe they didn't feel as supported or [16:05] they didn't have [16:07] uh as much coaching as they wanted [16:10] okay well so [16:12] that question assumes what [16:15] they left or we let them go yeah it [16:17] assumes they left man you've got to slow [16:18] down man slow down and think we didn't [16:20] they didn't quit we let them go so the [16:22] answer is no [16:24] to your question yeah so they didn't [16:26] leave because they didn't feel supported [16:28] um [16:30] but they were let go [16:33] because they needed to close more [16:36] maybe maybe not [16:38] okay i mean okay that's also something [16:40] that you have a good point you're so in [16:42] solution mindset get out of the solution [16:44] mindset [16:46] think about where your product plays [16:48] right think about where your product [16:50] plays and dig in [16:55] so here's what i kept saying before so i [16:57] hope all your pickle friends are [16:58] watching including marketing right [17:01] so what literally so what if it sits in [17:04] exact vision so what [17:07] and so what if he doesn't watch them all [17:09] so what [17:12] yeah it's a good point right because i [17:14] think like closure rate close rate's not [17:16] and i know this right close rates forty [17:18] percent [17:20] you're happy with 40 percent you should [17:22] be happy right um you have a problem [17:24] outbound we're not going to help you [17:26] generate more outbound meetings it's not [17:28] that's not going to be a problem that we [17:30] solve [17:31] um i wonder do you know [17:34] if it's 95 5 is christian even having [17:37] outbound meetings right is it like one a [17:38] month two a month yeah very few very [17:41] very few probably one or two a month yep [17:43] close rate is the same on those as well [17:46] no i'm sure that's a great question i [17:48] haven't run that report i don't even [17:49] know if i haven't not and i'm gonna go [17:50] into salesforce and build that report [17:51] but uh it's so low and it's nipping i'm [17:53] not even trying to watch it i'm sure our [17:54] close rate on that's maybe [17:56] it's such a small how do you say uh such [17:58] a small sample pool that it might even [18:00] be 30 or 40 percent but it's it's just [18:03] one deal yeah you win one deal and it's [18:05] like yeah yeah or it could be five [18:07] percent for all i know like i don't know [18:09] but again it's such a small sample pool [18:13] i mean i think there's a there's [18:14] opportunity there [18:16] right with with looking at [18:18] one [18:19] you'd still need to generate more [18:20] outbound meetings hold on chris and help [18:22] you [18:23] out christian said i'll try to help you [18:24] out here i typically review calls if [18:26] it's been a while since the last [18:27] conversation or if i'm writing a [18:28] recommendation i'm looking for a [18:29] specific point i missed in my notes [18:33] so it's remembering details over the [18:34] course of several meetings [18:36] reviewing a call before he jumps on the [18:38] next call because the last one was a [18:39] couple weeks ago [18:41] and things like that [18:45] i i'm i'm a little stuck on the problem [18:47] that like you know [18:48] so as he he's recording every call with [18:50] zoom [18:51] and then if he wants to review it he [18:53] puts an exact vision it sounds like a [18:54] convoluted process here right where [18:56] it's hard for him maybe he's spending [18:58] more time there [19:00] you know [19:01] probing a little bit here but maybe he [19:02] spends that time trying to actually more [19:04] time [19:05] look i'm going to try to help you out [19:07] here because we're at 20 minutes and you [19:08] haven't found a problem this must be [19:10] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] hard so [19:11] tell me what pickle does [19:14] uh we'll record your meetings in zoom [19:16] right we'll record your zooming it's a [19:18] we're an exec vision competitor [19:20] and i know you've been with exec vision [19:21] for a while you're right wait so pick [19:23] pickles the same thing as gong and [19:25] chorus [19:26] same space definitely [19:28] so how [19:30] okay so why would i switch [19:34] because the integration's not working [19:39] okay well that's a feature but the [19:41] problem right so [19:42] that's and this is where i'm struggling [19:44] candidly right just being candid right [19:46] is that good yeah you have a close you [19:47] don't have a closing problem you don't [19:48] have a sale price problem seems like [19:50] sales cycle is fine these those are the [19:52] core problems that we're going to come [19:53] in and solve [19:54] yeah [19:55] okay so let's go ahead and use [19:57] onboarding and training [19:59] right so bringing new reps having [20:00] libraries of calls okay so go back there [20:02] go back go back there go back there [20:05] um but it's a future problem so it's [20:08] it's a little bit harder but that's [20:09] called risk-based selling you can [20:10] actually risk-based sell there's nothing [20:12] wrong with that it's a potential future [20:13] problems so at a risk-based sale i got [20:16] to do a video on this for everybody [20:17] because it's deep [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] but a respect the [20:19] risk-based sale is you can still gap [20:21] sell to a potential down the road risk [20:23] you have to manipulate think about a [20:25] four quadrant matrix you have to [20:26] manipulate at the bottom x-axis it's the [20:30] um impact of that event happening right [20:33] so the impact of us not hiring people [20:35] how big could that be is it high or low [20:37] then the next one is the y-axis and that [20:39] is the probability of the event [20:41] happening so if the probability is high [20:43] or is it low so the bottom left box is [20:45] the impact if it happens is low and the [20:46] probability of it happening is low no [20:48] one's going to buy [20:49] does it make sense [20:51] are you sure [20:52] i think so i would like to watch your [20:54] video on it honestly right a little more [20:56] think about it the probability of an [20:57] event happening is really low it's never [20:59] good chance of happening is really low [21:01] and the impact to you if the event [21:03] happens is really low is anybody gonna [21:05] buy oh then it's yeah it's it's not as [21:07] pain yeah no [21:08] they're not no they don't believe it's [21:10] gonna happen and if it does happen so [21:12] what it's not gonna it's not gonna hurt [21:13] me right [21:15] the other one is the top right box if it [21:17] happens it's massive impact and oh by [21:19] the way the probability of it happening [21:21] is super high is someone going to change [21:23] and do something to fix that [21:24] definitely high probability you're [21:26] facing a big problem yep [21:28] yeah like holy [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] if this happens i'm [21:29] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] i'm gonna die oh my god the [21:31] chance of it happening super high i [21:32] better change really quick right yeah [21:33] that's the only time people buy [21:36] okay the ones in the middle are the i [21:37] think it's really i think it could [21:38] happen any day now but i don't really [21:40] care it's not gonna if it does happen [21:42] it's not gonna be that big of an impact [21:43] no big deal so you as a seller have to [21:45] change my viewpoint [21:47] on the impact [21:50] right that's what you sell to getting me [21:52] to think dude this is a bigger deal than [21:53] you think the other side of it is yeah [21:55] this is the impact is right yeah dude [21:56] this happens i'm [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] like if i get [21:58] struck by lightning i'm going to die yep [22:00] but i'm never going to get it struck by [22:02] lightning never it happens once in a [22:04] billion years oh once like once a [22:06] lifetime so that my probability is low [22:08] your job as the seller is to try to [22:10] convince me or show me or understand [22:11] does my current lifestyle habits etc [22:14] actually increase my chance of getting [22:15] struck by lightning and if you can get [22:17] that probability to go out that moves me [22:19] into that top right box i'm going to buy [22:22] i'm going to change so if you're trying [22:23] to convince me you're going to try to [22:25] sell me on this idea that if i don't [22:27] hire people fast enough i could miss my [22:30] number then you've got to either play on [22:31] the impact side or the probability side [22:36] i think i'm more inclined to go impact [22:37] maybe it's just easier to go impact but [22:40] i think you know [22:42] if if two account executives can ramp to [22:44] full productivity in four months rather [22:46] than six months [22:48] in three and a half months rather than [22:49] six months [22:50] is that significant as far as driving [22:53] more yeah [22:55] of course of course it is so yes so now [22:58] here's your chance let's see what you do [22:59] with this i want everybody paying [23:00] attention here's your big chance [23:02] i gave you a yes to a self-diagnosis [23:04] question because i'm being nice [23:06] so what are you going to do with it of [23:08] course [23:09] of course it will be better for us where [23:11] are you going to go with that [23:14] can you define [23:16] better [23:17] like what does that mean okay [23:20] just like you mean it means that they're [23:22] able to start bringing their quota in [23:24] two months faster [23:29] they have a million dollars [23:33] quota they have a million dollar quota [23:34] that's eighty thousand dollars per [23:36] person per month right yeah yeah 83.33 [23:40] yeah okay so that's that's [23:43] uh [23:44] 90 196 or 166 or some 166 over two [23:48] months yes that's significant that's a [23:50] lot yeah um yeah [23:53] especially yeah that's a ton [23:54] um [23:56] times two [24:01] now and now i feel like i need to move [24:03] to the to the product probability [24:07] cause [24:08] what don't you know [24:10] you got the problem [24:12] you got the impact what don't you know [24:14] okay [24:14] how [24:15] will you how do you how will you ramp [24:17] them to productivity [24:20] faster how about you [24:22] ask way too many process questions what [24:24] don't you know right now [24:26] it's the simplest question in the world [24:28] if you're trying to diagnose [24:32] right our onboarding process if you're [24:34] trying to diagnose onboarding process [24:36] you think the problem is or you want me [24:38] to believe that the problem is we may [24:40] not be able to get people on fast enough [24:43] right [24:44] then you have to take a look at that [24:45] whole process from recruiting all the [24:48] way into getting people ramped up or [24:49] from the first day they get hired to the [24:51] day uh to their ramped up what do you [24:53] want to know about that [24:57] well i want to dive into process a [24:58] little bit more with that it just takes [25:00] too much time right [25:02] okay they start on day one what are they [25:04] doing are they joining calls are they [25:05] can you tell me what's going to happen [25:07] this first week the second week [25:10] yeah so the first week we we put them on [25:12] uh [25:13] we give them access to the online [25:14] training they have to go through the [25:15] online training and then they do all the [25:16] other [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you have to do to get set [25:17] up with all the applications uh get set [25:20] up on salesforce get something slack all [25:22] that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] is the first week getting them [25:23] set up when do they start taking their [25:25] own calls [25:27] about four three four months in [25:29] three four months in before they're [25:30] taking their own live calls yeah yep [25:34] um [25:36] maybe two [25:38] sure [25:41] i mean [25:42] those calls definitely biggest things [25:45] you're missing the it's the simplest [25:46] question anybody paying attention here [25:49] what do you think the question he should [25:50] be asking right now there's a lot of [25:51] people on this what is the question you [25:53] should be asking right now everybody [25:55] i wish i could see this you guys said [25:56] let's see what they say i'm being nice [25:58] today [26:00] so jesse dunn if you don't improve rep [26:02] time to productivity what happens then [26:04] he got that by understanding that's like [26:06] 360 70 000 on the line but that's a [26:09] self-diagnosing question but i can still [26:11] live with it right but that's not it [26:14] yeah it was if we could do this it's a [26:15] self-diagnosing because [26:17] um [26:21] okay no uh what's his name here we go [26:23] juan pablo garcia he said uh how do you [26:26] do it today now [26:29] now i mean look these aren't bad [26:30] questions [26:32] but there's one question no one's answer [26:34] up [26:34] agreed but defined better is revenue and [26:36] impact okay yeah you could define that [26:38] but do you want to shorten that time of [26:40] course i do he's already got that go for [26:42] the kill no you don't get [26:43] val no vlog oh stop it don't go for the [26:47] kill that's silly what impact would have [26:49] a ramp the time was shortened okay but [26:51] he kind of got that guys the impact [26:53] would be about 366 thousand dollars [26:55] something like this [26:56] he's a diagnosis stage [26:59] right here's what happens [27:02] watch what you would happen he said [27:05] just coming out of my mouth i'm watching [27:06] your face [27:08] what do you think would have happened if [27:09] you simply asked me [27:12] what are the two or three things [27:15] that you struggle with the most that [27:17] makes this ramp take six months [27:23] you don't even know what you're trying [27:24] to [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] fix yet like literally you [27:26] you i can shorten it from six months to [27:28] four months without even knowing [27:32] why it takes so long [27:34] right right i'm asking prosper i was [27:36] trying to focus process like tell me [27:37] about how you onboard and tell me how [27:40] they start but it's much more direct [27:42] quicker faster if i can say [27:44] why yes why [27:46] what you struggle with that makes it [27:47] take six months yes because what i did [27:49] this is why because i said to you i said [27:51] well the first week they do this and [27:53] then they have to go on and watch the [27:55] online training and then you said oh [27:56] okay when do they start talking and i [27:58] spend about three months like oh wow [28:00] three months you weren't i don't think [28:01] you were ever going to get there so i'm [28:03] going to give you the answer to that [28:05] and watch how this is going to make your [28:07] life easier [28:09] the biggest challenge to getting our [28:11] people ramped up is getting to actually [28:14] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] be able to get sell [28:17] that's our biggest ramp challenge [28:19] because gap selling is just sitting in [28:20] this hot seat right [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] now is hard [28:23] and you're like damn i'm getting slayed [28:24] now i thought i was doing so good so [28:26] until you know that's our biggest [28:29] challenge with the onboarding [28:32] how are you going to convince me that [28:35] you can solve it [28:36] but now that i just told you that i [28:38] already see the wheels turning in your [28:40] head you're like oh [28:42] i know i think we could help him with [28:43] that so now go from there and go one [28:46] layer deeper or two layers deeper and [28:48] see if you can flush this out [28:50] yeah gaps gap something's hard [28:53] it takes you know so it's it's taking [28:55] people time to implement um [29:00] how how will they [29:02] you know and it's a small organization [29:04] as well right this is you know 10 [29:06] employees or so 10 15 employees [29:07] something like that right [29:09] um [29:11] this is significant time resources from [29:12] you to coach and train brady to coach [29:14] and train and get them to this point [29:16] how is slated granny's of gap selling [29:19] beast [29:20] so she yeah she's on she's got it [29:25] so [29:28] i'm interested in in hearing how they'll [29:29] coach themselves as well okay so what [29:32] you want to do [29:34] so you're asking how they coach [29:36] themselves well right now how they help [29:37] themselves get there faster [29:39] yeah i so i christian does it himself he [29:42] just kind of told me he goes in and [29:43] watches them when he feels he's missing [29:44] something so you literally [29:46] you could have done it again you [29:48] literally could have done it again [29:50] you could have said okay i told you the [29:52] gap selling [29:53] is the hardest part of getting them on [29:54] board so what should have been your next [29:55] one what are the big struggles what are [29:58] the main three struggles to [30:00] getting to be a gap seller [30:03] there you go so now you're trying to so [30:05] so getting people to understand gap [30:06] selling what are the three hardest [30:07] things i would say one is understanding [30:09] the difference between a technical [30:11] problem and a business problem i think [30:12] the second one is teaching people to [30:14] actually listen [30:16] right actually listen to what the buyer [30:17] is saying i think that another one is [30:19] them to really understand what our pick [30:21] is and learn how to get to the problem [30:23] immediately [30:24] and i think probably the last one is um [30:26] [Music] [30:27] there's one more um oh [30:29] having the the [30:32] the critical [30:33] thinking skills to listen to what the [30:36] person is saying [30:38] and in an agile impromptu fashion be [30:40] able to ask the next question not be [30:42] like okay i asked the question they [30:44] answered now what's the next question on [30:45] my list to actually be in the [30:47] conversation [30:51] one thing that's interesting why is it [30:52] so hard to understand the pick [30:55] right [30:56] you have problems laid out you know the [30:57] problems that you solve [30:59] then it's let you know impact root [31:00] causes why is this why is it so hard to [31:02] understand the pick [31:03] i don't think it's hard to understand [31:04] the pick i think it's hard for people to [31:06] actually internalize the picture they [31:07] can do it on the fly so then the second [31:09] point of [31:11] being able to do it on the fly [31:12] right so you got you got to be able to [31:15] understand what the root causes are see [31:16] what a lot of people do is what they you [31:18] do you ask constant constant process [31:21] questions now i don't mind the process [31:24] questions but you were on i could tell [31:26] there's a difference between asking [31:27] deliberate process questions because you [31:29] know what you're trying to find versus [31:32] just asking process questions are all [31:34] over the place and hope you stumble over [31:36] something [31:37] entirely different process you are [31:39] asking the how process questions and [31:41] stumbling like how do you do this [31:44] i can help you out as well and say like [31:46] when i know from experience when you ask [31:48] too much process questions when it takes [31:50] too long then you're you're just not [31:52] building value you still have to build [31:54] value throughout a discovery right [31:56] you're going to get to the end of a [31:57] discovery you're going to understand the [31:58] entire process front to back [32:00] but they're not going to care because [32:02] there's nothing because they know their [32:03] own process there's no problem right so [32:05] yes yes yes when you ask process [32:08] questions they already know the answers [32:09] to those there's no value [32:11] but when you help them understand their [32:13] problem and you help them understand the [32:15] root cause [32:16] and the impact then they start to see [32:18] the values like well maybe he knows [32:19] something else maybe maybe he can help [32:20] me so because you were able to get to [32:22] the problem fast enough then when you [32:24] got to the problem you didn't start [32:26] diagnosing the problem deeper you kept [32:28] going to process questions right that [32:31] were not targeted [32:33] right had you simply asked what's the [32:35] biggest problem in getting people out [32:36] ramped up on time [32:38] getting them to understand gap selling [32:40] great [32:41] of that what is the most difficult [32:43] things that people take the longest to [32:45] understand gap selling [32:47] then you could have said okay so how are [32:50] you today [32:51] helping them train on those three things [32:53] look how i mean come back it's a much [32:55] better process question look it takes [32:57] two seconds it's that fast [33:00] right and you and i'm looking at your [33:01] eyes you're literally following the [33:03] logic aren't you [33:04] oh yeah definitely i mean because i know [33:06] this is things that i struggle with [33:07] right and i'm [33:09] things that we've tried to workshop [33:11] internally so this is it's it's really [33:12] helpful um [33:14] so yeah so once you got there then [33:16] you're like okay [33:18] then one of my could say now i'm gonna [33:20] ask the question [33:22] oh well we're gonna say what are the [33:25] what are why is it what are the [33:27] struggles with ramping up [33:28] um faster what are the struggles with [33:31] implementing gaps no no no no okay i [33:33] could live with that if you're on the [33:34] fly but if i want you to do this right [33:38] it's not to ramp faster that's for you [33:39] to state it's what is caught guys is so [33:43] important it's diagnosis what are the [33:46] things that are causing [33:49] the ramp up time to be so long do you [33:52] see the difference [33:53] right [33:54] no no that was a question really do you [33:56] see the difference i do right it's it's [33:58] it's taking it away from the future and [34:01] saying like this is a current this is a [34:03] problem that we've yeah it's not a [34:04] problem we're gonna face in four months [34:06] yeah so [34:08] yet to when you when you start here's [34:10] here's how it goes everybody pay [34:11] attention this is how it goes when you [34:13] start asking somebody why something [34:15] doesn't isn't shorter there's hard [34:17] that's not always an answer for that [34:19] that solution you're getting to stop [34:21] thinking about i don't know i'm not [34:22] doing this i'm not doing it i don't know [34:24] but if you say to someone what is [34:26] happening now [34:27] why is it taking your [34:30] your onboarding process or six months so [34:32] people become proficient enough for you [34:34] to believe that they can sell gap [34:35] selling why does that take so long [34:38] that's happening right now i don't have [34:40] to postulate i don't have to think about [34:42] what i'm you know right it's really this [34:44] is what's happening now [34:46] how do you and then how do you help them [34:48] how do you help them to [34:50] do gap selling on the fly right how do [34:52] you help them to be able to [34:55] internalize this enough that they can [34:57] that they can do this on the fly yes so [34:59] what we do is we use a lot of video and [35:01] we we go through their [35:04] the their calls and then we sit with [35:07] them put notes in their calls with like [35:09] exactly a little note thing right we let [35:11] them and then we sit with them and watch [35:13] them and stop it here and say look see [35:14] what the customer said here you can do [35:16] this up see what the customer said here [35:18] you could have asked this question we do [35:19] a lot of video [35:20] um coaching [35:23] which is great this is that's what i'm [35:25] selling right [35:26] this is what i want that's that's what i [35:27] want you to do um but i i i want you to [35:31] do it more [35:32] more than just [35:34] can't call it [35:35] okay so you all right so you want me to [35:37] do it more so [35:39] i want them to do it more [35:41] it needs to be easy for the reps to be [35:43] like [35:44] be doing this on on each call but it has [35:47] to be easy i don't want to get too much [35:48] into product or any product at all but [35:50] it has to be easy for them all right so [35:54] all right so then [35:55] how do you how do you get me to do it [35:57] more what how do you get me to do it [35:59] more [36:01] i've got to find a problem with you only [36:03] doing it once once a week uh with only [36:06] doing it once what do you got to do [36:09] there's another word you want to use [36:14] i'm not sure i'm not sure what [36:17] okay everybody this is for everybody not [36:18] just my man [36:21] you have to understand [36:24] why [36:26] why why if you want somebody to [36:30] change you have to understand why [36:31] they're not changing now or why they [36:33] can't do something now this is all why [36:36] driven so if i if you say well i want [36:39] you to do it more than once a month or [36:40] more than once a week i want them to do [36:42] it more than once a week so you got to [36:44] understand what [36:46] why [36:47] that yeah there has yeah [36:49] thank you why there's there's got to be [36:50] a reason [36:52] um [36:59] unless the current state is untenable [37:02] yeah [37:03] okay [37:04] so [37:06] floor is yours for another minute and [37:07] then we got a jet [37:14] trying to be so ask a question but [37:17] uh [37:18] i mean [37:20] why yeah why only one why only once per [37:23] week [37:25] i'm still i'm still stuck there like [37:26] time [37:28] okay because it takes time how long [37:30] does it take [37:32] um i would well you figure the average [37:34] calls 45 minutes to an hour and so even [37:36] on one and a half it takes um you know [37:39] 40 minutes to get through the call then [37:41] we have to sit down and go through [37:42] another and then when i actually do the [37:43] call it probably takes easily an hour [37:45] hour and a half because i put so many [37:48] notes in and we stop it every second we [37:49] have a talk and i can be verbose right i [37:52] don't know brady's takes but brace [37:53] probably takes an hour so just to do one [37:55] call usually takes about [37:59] two hours in total time two and a half [38:01] hours [38:02] okay so i don't want you to do more of [38:04] those i don't want you to take two hours [38:06] to do two of those keep doing that once [38:08] a week um [38:10] but [38:12] i guess how often is christian reviewing [38:15] his own calls [38:16] and how often are you reviewing your own [38:18] calls christian [38:19] i'll see what he says in a second [38:24] how often is he going back and looking [38:26] at calls how often is he referencing [38:28] that for a recap i'm gonna say he's [38:29] going back once himself probably once to [38:32] himself so [38:33] maybe that [38:34] why only one once a week why only once a [38:36] week [38:37] he's got five he's got five five to ten [38:39] calls a week why is he only doing it for [38:40] one no you asked about outbound [38:43] you guys about outbound calls you have [38:45] inbound calls you got more than five he [38:46] got more than one [38:47] every other day usually there you go he [38:49] does it every other day okay a call [38:51] every other day maybe 50 of calls [38:55] i guess so yeah he's having five a week [38:58] um [39:00] five weeks like one a day maybe two a [39:02] day [39:03] um [39:07] that's a lot isn't it that's a lot why [39:09] why every other day [39:11] there's a lot there's a lot of important [39:14] things on every one of these calls right [39:15] and i get it because it takes a lot of [39:17] time but [39:18] okay but i don't want to get in there [39:20] we're running around a rough road now [39:21] you're going to be hard-pressed to [39:22] convince me that my sales team needs to [39:25] be spending more than every other day [39:27] reviewing what they're doing [39:29] that you i i look at this like sports [39:31] tape right and i can't do that because [39:33] especially if you can do it live for two [39:35] seconds while it's happening but if my [39:36] team is literally going out and [39:37] reviewing their their calls once every [39:40] other day [39:41] i don't think you could absorb much more [39:42] than that you need time to apply it [39:45] you absolutely need time to apply it so [39:47] i mean unless you can explain to me [39:49] that's a good point right um [39:55] struggle here because i want to talk [39:56] product right i want to i know you do so [39:58] i know you because you know why you're [39:59] struggling i don't think we have a [40:00] problem that you can solve [40:03] but you have a solution in place [40:05] i think there's parts of it that are [40:06] that are um a little bit broken [40:09] right i don't think he should have to [40:10] download and upload i think he should be [40:12] taking his notes [40:14] in that platform so then they're tied [40:16] with the conversations [40:18] i agree [40:20] i think there's times i should have [40:21] asked this there's times when he needs [40:23] to review a call from two three weeks [40:25] ago because he's jumping on another call [40:26] with them and he doesn't have it [40:29] yeah he has it he has that [40:31] why wouldn't he have it [40:32] well [40:33] in zoom because then are you paying for [40:35] extra cloud storage and zoom they're [40:36] gonna expire typically they're gonna [40:38] expire after some time uh they [40:41] so ask ask that so [40:43] i i think he moved if he if he's already [40:45] look yeah i don't know if zoom or not [40:47] and i don't know what number go into um [40:49] into [40:50] execution so sometimes they do sometimes [40:52] you know why it's not consistent i don't [40:53] know so there's one potential problem we [40:55] have but you the thing is that if he's [40:57] going back this is such a small gap my [41:00] man it's such a small gap [41:02] right so yeah there are a few things [41:04] here but watch i'm to just zing you [41:05] right now okay [41:07] this gap is really small could there be [41:08] things you guys do better that make our [41:10] life a little easier yes [41:12] but the truth matter is that such a [41:14] small gap so really what it's going to [41:15] come down is the cost of change [41:18] right the cost of change [41:20] and you you [41:23] we we don't pay for exact vision right [41:27] so [41:29] i'm gonna need a bigger problem than [41:30] that to [41:33] change [41:36] it's [41:37] valid i get it 100 uh yeah let me [41:40] ask you this question let me ask you [41:41] this question do you guys create um [41:45] uh reports [41:47] and things like that and create [41:49] correlations et cetera to calls and [41:51] close rates [41:54] yes [41:56] not it's not our focus though candidly [41:58] okay good answer we have new reports but [42:02] so that could have been something that [42:03] got my attention right because then you [42:06] could have turned around and showed me a [42:07] path to onboarding people faster and [42:10] assessing the [42:12] the um [42:13] uh [42:14] productivity of the team and potentially [42:16] growing our close rate [42:18] so you could have done another [42:19] risk-based sell and you could have sold [42:20] me on the idea that you're not selling [42:22] enough right now because you're not [42:24] actually being able to figure out what [42:25] is working best and what isn't that [42:27] would have got my attention right but [42:29] it's not your if it's not your core [42:31] comments you don't do it so [42:32] yeah that's one thing we're more focused [42:34] on the rep right we're we're [42:36] you know you mentioned gone course exact [42:38] vision etc um we're in the same space [42:41] but we're more focused on the account [42:42] executive and [42:45] building tools for them like note taking [42:47] tools to be able to stay organizing [42:48] their calls better to be able to review [42:50] calls themselves quicker and easier um [42:53] and things like that so it's a so as you [42:55] go into the products i know you want to [42:57] go into the product and i hope every [42:58] this is how we're going to end this one [42:59] it's been a little longer than normal [43:00] but that's okay this is how we're going [43:01] to end this one [43:02] you just went into a couple of the [43:04] things in the product it felt good to [43:05] get it out you got to throw it on the [43:07] table but the bottom line is [43:09] everything you said just rolled off me [43:12] because because the things you said are [43:14] going to [43:15] drive the problems that i don't have [43:18] do you see what i'm saying like just [43:20] because christian can do this a little [43:22] faster doesn't really address me with a [43:24] problem because he's still getting in [43:25] there and looking at his recordings two [43:27] or three times a week we're still [43:29] getting in there so it's not enough time [43:31] that i feel like we're missing out on [43:33] other things or it's affecting the [43:34] business negatively right we're still [43:36] growing our close rates decent our [43:39] average time to sale is decent so all [43:41] the things you touch are not negatively [43:44] affected right now by the uh by you [43:46] think other than our onboarding [43:48] but you haven't shown me away i mean i [43:50] think [43:53] yeah uh they they're really [43:56] they're not affecting you negatively um [43:59] i think maybe christian more so right [44:01] just christian and in his process and [44:05] any frustrations that he has just tool [44:07] wise but [44:08] that's not a big enough gap it's exactly [44:10] what i call gap selling you [44:13] and trust me and anybody listening you [44:14] all agree with this [44:16] no ceo in the world is going to spend a [44:18] dime [44:20] to make their sales team happier unless [44:23] there is some downstream effect of that [44:26] right and if i'm going to make my sales [44:28] team happier it's not the 5 or 10 or 12 [44:31] minutes he's going to save or she's [44:32] going to say by by not having to [44:34] download the zoom or have it [44:36] automatically upload somewhere that's [44:37] not i'm going to say i'm going to do [44:39] that by flying them all out here over [44:41] christmas or i'm going to do that by [44:42] buying them you know really nice [44:44] christmas birthday presents every time [44:45] it's a birthday or i'm going to do that [44:46] by [44:47] buying a place in bail and then the [44:49] beach where they can take their families [44:50] for free because they work for that [44:52] those are things i'm going to do [44:54] right i'm not going to buy a new [44:56] software stack to make my sales team [44:59] their life easier unless i see the [45:01] downstream benefit to that to [45:04] revenue [45:06] uh average time to close average sales [45:07] price onboarding you know et cetera [45:11] to closing outbound more [45:13] to yep yeah cracking the code outbound [45:18] okay i could have focused there a little [45:20] more for sure [45:22] all right man look good effort [45:24] good appreciate it yeah yeah if i'm in [45:26] your shoes my big takeaway is your [45:28] ability to really get to the problem [45:30] quicker [45:31] and then get to the whys why these [45:33] problems there's more diagnosis [45:35] less [45:36] long process how questions [45:39] right okay less of those get look i [45:41] don't mind how question here and there [45:42] but you here's one other thing know [45:44] exactly where you're going with the how [45:46] question [45:48] right [45:49] know what you're looking for with it [45:53] okay you look confused [45:55] well no i [45:58] what i'm looking for here is you know [45:59] you want to close more [46:00] you you're you're close you're you know [46:02] higher closer it's it's back to the [46:04] classic sales problems right yeah yeah [46:06] but my point so you missed my point you [46:08] i know i want to close more but what i'm [46:10] saying is a process question doesn't [46:12] help me see how to close more [46:15] until you understand why i'm not closing [46:19] more so you have to have an idea in your [46:21] head what are the two or three or four [46:23] things that's preventing him from [46:24] closing more so then what are those [46:27] things i'm going to why are they okay [46:29] you're winning 40 why are you losing the [46:31] 60 what are the top two top two or three [46:32] reasons why you're losing the 60. yes [46:35] i may not know [46:36] exactly so you should so you should have [46:38] in your head is it because you can't [46:40] ramp people up fast enough is it because [46:42] they make pro they're not selling a gap [46:43] selling at the level they should be is [46:45] it because you go even deeper if you did [46:46] your gap selling you know what i'm doing [46:48] is it because the team really doesn't [46:50] understand the nuances of gaps selling [46:52] and [46:52] they're not they don't understand a [46:54] business problem a technical problem or [46:55] they're they can't get to the business [46:56] problem fast enough without applying the [46:58] pick as it's supposed to happen [47:00] and i i might say yes or no to those and [47:02] then once you know what the root cause [47:03] is then you can start saying well let me [47:05] show you how we would help that better [47:07] let me show you how we'd help them watch [47:09] what i do here [47:10] help them absorb the concept between a [47:13] business problem and a technical problem [47:15] faster [47:16] so therefore your onboarding would be [47:18] faster therefore see what i'm doing you [47:20] got to reverse engineer it but you're [47:22] all over the place [47:24] okay [47:26] so yes you're surfing looking for a [47:28] problem know what it is know what the [47:29] root cause is you're looking for that's [47:30] very specific questions to get you there [47:32] and if you get there and there's no good [47:33] answer back out and go down again [47:36] yeah [47:37] all right got it [47:39] all right [47:40] i appreciate it all right man good work [47:41] i appreciate it good effort right [47:44] um [47:45] thank you very much all right everybody [47:47] this was a long one we had a good show [47:48] today some good questions on here um [47:51] really quickly one person said he's [47:52] asking too many oh close any questions i [47:54] just want to end on this thought [47:57] get that pathetic old school close [48:00] edited question [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] advice out of [48:02] your head [48:03] i call them and we call them here at asg [48:06] validating questions [48:08] and validating questions are gold when [48:10] used appropriately so this idea that you [48:12] should never ask closing questions is [48:14] just silly [48:16] okay [48:18] it doesn't matter if you ask closing it [48:19] open-ended et cetera instead you just [48:21] need to know what problem you're looking [48:23] for what do you think the end compact [48:25] could be and what's causing it [48:27] okay i don't care how you get there yes [48:29] no questions or wide-open command [48:30] statement questions tell me a little bit [48:32] about or a middle of the road probing [48:34] question how are you do uh no um what do [48:36] you do what where are you right now what [48:38] are you doing okay [48:40] so with that i'm gonna let you guys go [48:42] if you want to come on [48:44] pickle got some good exposure today see [48:46] the smart ones understand you get on you [48:47] might close the deal outside of this [48:49] right so if you want to come on if you [48:51] got a product or service that you think [48:52] i or asg company a sales growth company [48:55] needs or could use [48:56] hit me text me oh i don't even know what [48:58] my text is that's my text hold on [49:01] correct me here [49:03] check me right here look right here text [49:05] me here or hit me up on linkedin dm me [49:08] on linkedin or email me and we will get [49:11] you on the show all right folks until [49:14] next time i hope you found this valuable [49:15] you know what to say [49:16] peace [49:17] i'm out [49:18] oh wait wait wait wait wait thank you [49:21] brady [49:22] my man kamana you get a free version of [49:26] free access to gap selling online [49:28] training i almost forgot i totally [49:30] forgot so we can improve your gap [49:32] selling skills so anybody that actually [49:34] comes on a gap sells me that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] what [49:36] are they the consolation prize [49:39] yes yes there it is my man so paige will [49:41] reach out to you with all the access um [49:44] you need and you get if you get free [49:46] access to gap selling online training [49:48] it's pretty dope it's interactive do it [49:50] i think you'll learn a lot [49:53] all right baby [49:56] all right now everybody knows what i'm [49:57] saying peace [49:59] i'm out

===FILE=== kWI9ADD1-sE - 51 How to Move from Feature Selling to Gap Selling w Keenan.txt
https://youtu.be/kWI9ADD1-sE
51. How to Move from Feature Selling to Gap Selling w⧸ Keenan

[0:00] one two one three three hey everybody [0:10] welcome back to the sales hacker podcast [0:12] that was my um that's my like sort of [0:15] traditional announcer voice at any rate [0:18] it's Sam Jacobs it's your host I am the [0:20] founder of revenue collective we are an [0:23] exclusive community for commercial [0:24] operators of growth companies all over [0:26] the world [0:26] we're in six cities officially I'm [0:28] actually recording this from Austin [0:29] Texas where we're trying to figure out [0:31] if there's enough people that care about [0:33] accelerating their careers at the VP [0:35] level and above that want to join [0:37] revenue collective that it makes sense [0:38] to have an Austin chapter but that's not [0:40] the point of why I'm talking to you [0:41] right now why I'm talking to you right [0:43] now is because we've got Keenan on the [0:44] show today Keenan is the founder of a [0:47] sales guy which is this consulting firm [0:48] has recruited from his training firm and [0:50] he's also the author of gap selling and [0:53] he is a passionate and controversial [0:56] some might say sales leader and thought [0:58] leader and he's an incredible guest and [1:00] got a lot of great insights really you [1:03] know what comes through in this [1:04] conversation is his passion for selling [1:06] and his passion for being great and it's [1:08] really it's a really an amazing story [1:10] and then we also dive deeply into really [1:13] the power of discovery and why gap [1:15] selling which is the book and the [1:16] philosophy that Keenan teaches is all [1:18] about connecting this this concept of a [1:21] current state which is untenable to a [1:23] future state which is ideal and making [1:25] the current state as uncomfortable as [1:27] possible we've talked about that a lot [1:28] in the podcast with other guests Keenan [1:30] does a great job of emphasizing [1:32] emphasizing these ideas now before we [1:34] get to the interview we want to thank [1:36] our sponsors the first is chorus that's [1:38] chorus up AI the leading conversation [1:40] intelligence platform for high-growth [1:42] sales teams chorus or cores transcribes [1:45] and analyzes business conversations in [1:47] real time to coach reps on how to become [1:50] top performers [1:51] now with chorus more reps meet quota new [1:54] hires ran faster and leaders become [1:56] better coaches everyone in the [1:58] organization can collaborate over the [2:00] actual voice of the customer so check [2:02] out chorus AI forward slash sales hacker [2:05] to see what they're up to [2:06] and our second sponsor is of course [2:08] outreach this is the leading sales [2:10] engagement platform outreach support [2:11] sales reps by enabling them to [2:13] authentic communication at scale from [2:16] automating the soul-sucking manual work [2:17] that eats up selling time to providing [2:19] action-oriented tips on what [2:22] communications are working best outreach [2:24] has your back now without further ado [2:27] let's listen to this amazing interview [2:29] with Keenan on the sales hacker podcast [2:32] hey everybody at Sam Jacobs welcome back [2:35] to the sales hacker podcast today we've [2:37] got a very very special guest we've got [2:39] Keenan on the show now there are [2:41] probably three people out there in the [2:42] world that don't know who Keenan is so [2:44] if you don't know who he is [2:45] he runs a sales consulting recruiting [2:48] speaking and training company called a [2:50] sales guy which of course she started [2:52] and he also wrote a very powerful and [2:55] influential book in the field of sales [2:56] called gap selling which he's gonna walk [2:58] us through and talk to us about so [3:00] without further ado Keenan welcome to [3:02] the show what's up Sam man if you all [3:08] are out there listening and you don't [3:10] know we've recorded this two times [3:11] already and each time the computer [3:13] crashed so we're hopeful this is the [3:15] third time is the charm [3:16] but now at this point Keenan and I know [3:18] each other pretty well so Keenan let's [3:25] hope let's hope and pray that this will [3:26] work out but you know there's some [3:28] you've written this book app selling you [3:31] are a very you know influential and [3:33] noteworthy thought leader on the sales [3:35] scene and in the in sort of like helping [3:37] companies grow fear but there's a few [3:39] people out there that don't know who you [3:40] are so in your words tell us what a [3:43] sales guy is and what you all focus on [3:45] and then we'll dive into a little bit of [3:47] background and then we'll talk about the [3:48] book gap selling guy is sales consulting [3:52] recruiting and training company we help [3:55] companies make their number like we try [3:58] to change the way people sell by [4:00] providing the guidance direction insight [4:02] knowledge and foundational elements to [4:05] developing and executing just badass [4:08] sales teams that's impressive [4:10] and then and there's a recruiting [4:12] component too so you also help them find [4:14] great salespeople is that right yes [4:16] absolutely [4:18] abstinence which can be tough sometimes [4:19] and is it is it international national [4:22] you have a sort of geographic area focus [4:25] where most your clients are [4:26] just if we wanna go it's an [4:27] international brother I mean you know we [4:29] need we need its what is it 2019 people [4:33] find you and when you have a mouth as [4:35] big as I do and you've written a couple [4:36] of books and you have a decent online [4:39] presence they find you like I have to [4:41] get over to Ireland in two weeks and was [4:44] in Australia earlier this year and yeah [4:46] I is real soon I'm all over the place [4:48] that's awesome that's fantastic well how [4:51] does that let's how did you get into [4:52] this you know what's your background how [4:54] did you become a sales guy quote-unquote [4:57] and and walk us through a little bit [4:59] about sort of you know the life's [5:01] journey and also along the way I'm sure [5:02] we'll talk about some of the concepts [5:04] that inform your perspectives on gap [5:06] selling yes I've been a sales guy in the [5:09] whole life like that's the bottom line [5:11] and I'd even know it like my aunt used [5:13] to call me that you know and I don't [5:14] think she was being nice when she did it [5:16] but she was supposed to call me that I [5:17] just had a knack for influencing people [5:20] and really let's break it down that's [5:22] what sales is all about it's about [5:23] influencing people's decisions and as a [5:26] kid like if I wanted to play a certain [5:28] sport or play a certain game on the [5:30] playground you know and all the other [5:31] kids wanna play kickball and I wanted to [5:33] play hide-and-go-seek [5:33] I get those kids those kids played in [5:35] hind go seek if you came held a high [5:37] water and I figured that out right and [5:38] then I was also a little hustler like I [5:40] you know my school had this this big [5:43] raffle competition and I went out and [5:44] sold more raffle tickets than anybody so [5:46] like ninety raffle tickets and nobody [5:48] else sold anywhere close to the next if [5:49] there's one kid who sold like seven [5:51] bucks which is ten a book and I did it [5:53] door-to-door and I busted my hump [5:55] I mean imagine how many doors you got to [5:56] knock on to sell 90 tickets you figure [5:58] if you get one person to answer the door [6:00] before doors you know you got knocking [6:02] on 400 doors with this clown got his mom [6:04] to come down we found it I sold more and [6:07] got her to buy more tickets to put him [6:09] over the top [6:10] I remember the assembly you want to see [6:11] it kids seething it's almost like if the [6:14] sports you know games they zero in on [6:16] somebody sitting there not paying [6:18] attention I picking their nose and they [6:19] watch him they would have found me [6:21] because I was seething [6:23] mad and I was sitting that thing and I [6:25] could even tell you what first place was [6:27] what second place was a like a coupon [6:29] for a free ice cream cone I want to [6:30] stick that up the principal's ass I was [6:32] so pissed off [6:35] like his mom is walk didn't bothered do [6:39] we know do we know his name who is this [6:41] girl I don't remember [6:43] I just lost nose mad because I worked so [6:45] hard but anyways and so I did that most [6:47] of my life you know Isaac you started I [6:49] can miss all the kids other kids all the [6:51] kids to pool their money and we did [6:52] lemonade stands I built haunted houses [6:54] in my basement I was always selling and [6:57] building something and then you know in [6:59] 2000 know what 97 I was living in South [7:03] Beach Miami I was modeling I did it for [7:06] Tommy Hilfiger him and you know Eastern [7:08] Mountain Sports in and you know it was [7:11] called May company back then and [7:13] Nordstrom's and I mean I did it for all [7:15] kinds of stuff my buddy called me up I [7:17] said Keenan it's time to come home [7:19] United be a supermodel he getting old I [7:21] got a job for you [7:22] selling chamber memberships so I did the [7:26] math to my head and said all right I'm [7:27] gonna come on I'll sell Chamber [7:29] memberships you're gonna pay me a [7:30] thousand bucks a week and this is a 97 [7:32] now it's 27 years I was like hell yeah [7:33] I'll do it [7:34] had you ever lived in Denver before yeah [7:37] I actually had I was modeled in Denver [7:39] and finished school and that's really [7:42] how it happened so I modeled in Denver [7:43] and I did a part-time finished school [7:44] and didn't really have anything on the [7:45] horizon so you know modeling is sort of [7:48] like baseball you you go to markets and [7:50] you build your book and you it's called [7:52] building your book and you shoot with as [7:54] many people as you can you do editorial [7:56] stuff you get as many gigs you can and [7:58] you build your book and then you go to [7:59] bigger and bigger markets well Miami was [8:01] the stepping stone to getting to New [8:03] York and you go there during the season [8:05] usually from about january to march [8:07] December to March and so I figured I'll [8:09] go down there build my book and see if I [8:11] get in with New York and keep going and [8:13] after about a month month and a half and [8:15] I was doing okay but it wasn't really [8:16] going very far that's what my buddy said [8:18] just come home dude [8:19] come home and I got a job for you so I [8:20] said [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] it came home and so and this [8:24] is I mean obviously when you're modeling [8:26] you're selling your body and you're [8:27] selling your your good looks but you [8:29] know the Denver Chamber of Commerce was [8:31] your first official sales job if I'm not [8:34] mistaken walk us through and that led [8:36] you somewhere that led you somewhere [8:38] that led you somewhere that ultimately [8:39] led you here walk us through that [8:40] process and also super curious about [8:42] there was this moment in your career [8:44] when you decided I've got to start [8:46] sharing my insights and talking [8:47] my struggles and walk us through the [8:49] development of that because I think that [8:50] was the inflection point that led us to [8:51] this to this moment right now yeah yeah [8:54] totally totally so I give my buddy [8:56] credit so he had his own business and he [8:58] was a member of the chamber and the [9:01] president said or the head of sales that [9:03] they were looking for a new person and [9:04] he said you got to hide this guy Keenan [9:05] is what he called me he said listen [9:06] cannon the chamber is packed with all [9:09] these business minds and business people [9:12] and who's who of Denver so go there for [9:14] one year you'll meet all of these people [9:16] and you be able to parlay that into a [9:18] new job so that was a good sales job but [9:20] in himself I said okay that makes sense [9:21] to me [9:21] so I went there I broke every sales [9:23] record you could imagine number one [9:25] biggest sale most sales in a month most [9:27] sales in the air like I was crushing it [9:29] and I was doing really really well and [9:31] then this company came in that sold IT [9:33] consulting services I saw the writing on [9:36] the wall I mean it the Chamber this I [9:37] mean it's it this is you're not really [9:38] doing any way the average membership is [9:40] like 600 bucks you know I knew there was [9:43] bigger more complex professional selling [9:46] gigs out there so this company came in [9:48] was IT consulting services and I was [9:49] like whoo I think this is a big sale so [9:51] I said that they would open an office in [9:53] Denver and I said hey man I'd like to [9:55] talk to you bout coming to work for you [9:56] guys and he was like look you're an [9:57] impressive guy you you you know I sold [9:59] them a membership and I saw them one of [10:01] the $2,500 ones that's 3x the average [10:03] sale right and I'm he's like I like [10:05] who's doing but I think we're gonna need [10:07] some more expertise cuz you don't know [10:10] anything about our industry anybody even [10:11] selling for a year and I'm like okay [10:12] because but I'll introduce you to the [10:14] new branch manager so new branch manager [10:16] shows up and he says hey I hear you're [10:17] interested in coming to work for us I [10:19] said yeah totally and I'm like like I'm [10:20] like a little Labrador Retriever puppy [10:22] I'm like yeah yeah yeah come on come on [10:23] come on you know he goes look because I [10:25] heard good things about you but he goes [10:27] we're opening this brand new office we [10:29] need somebody is exactly what he said he [10:31] goes we need somebody who can hit the [10:33] ground running you know that you have [10:36] only been signed for year and you have [10:37] no experience in our space what I'd like [10:40] to do is have you come in in six months [10:42] or so or a year after we've been [10:44] established we can give you the [10:45] attention you need and I slipped it a [10:48] message okay that makes sense [10:49] but let me ask you this question have [10:51] you found this person yet who has all [10:55] this experience and can do that hit the [10:57] ground running and he said no we haven't [11:00] and I looked him right in the eye and I [11:01] said I challenge you to find this person [11:04] quickly because if you don't you got [11:07] you'll be behind the eight ball because [11:09] you could have hired me I would have [11:11] been training and had been on the ground [11:13] running by the time you found this guy I [11:16] challenge you to find that person [11:18] quickly it was my exact words he [11:20] chuckled a little and said okay great [11:21] idea [11:22] he calls me back two weeks later it's [11:24] exactly what he said I'm not kidding [11:25] goes you son of a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] all I keep [11:29] challenge you to and he thought it was [11:32] the funniest thing so they hired me with [11:34] this one other girl just like where they [11:36] hide me in the chamber with this one [11:37] other guy the guy that had to meet the [11:39] chamber didn't make it three months I [11:40] became a top producer they hired me with [11:42] this other girl because she was too out [11:44] she was the safety net and I was the [11:46] risk she didn't make it three months I [11:48] was the number one rep in that company I [11:50] mean in that branch then I became the [11:52] manager then I became a partner and so I [11:54] just did that in three years slayed it [11:56] and then another client came along and [11:59] they hired me to run their manage modem [12:02] division it was 125 people 300 million [12:06] in revenue so I went from basically [12:08] modeling on the beaches of South Beach [12:10] Miami in 1997 to 2000 running a 125 [12:16] person 300 million dollar sales division [12:18] in three years wow that's amazing [12:20] and then there was a point at which she [12:22] just started is it he started a blog or [12:25] like what we there's a moment at which [12:26] you started describing your experience [12:28] walk us through that process in that [12:30] thought process yes my career went so [12:37] fast that my resume couldn't support it [12:41] if you will right so here I am running [12:43] this in and unfortunately it was in [12:46] manage modem which is basically provides [12:47] a dial-up service for all you big [12:49] dial-up companies well they were moving [12:51] to broadband and this companies never [12:53] broadband solution so they went from [12:54] flying high to basically nothing and I [12:56] lost my gig okay no big deal I went out [12:58] though in the world to get a new gig [13:00] people like no like I wasn't it was [13:03] before social so I couldn't really [13:05] compete like these guys that would run [13:06] into [13:07] same thing I was doing they were 4550 [13:09] whatever with 15 20 30 years experience [13:12] so I started a company it failed then I [13:15] took another job sort of had to take a [13:17] step back which I wasn't keen on it [13:19] wasn't a huge step but a somewhat of a [13:20] step back wasn't keen on it crushed it [13:23] there again crushed it there again so I [13:26] said I'm not gonna be in a position [13:28] anymore where I have to compete on my [13:30] resume I'm tired of this like I'm not [13:32] doing this so I said I what I'm gonna do [13:34] is I'm gonna start a blog and I'm gonna [13:36] blog every single day about what it's [13:39] like running sales teams how to coach [13:41] sales people how to build sales [13:43] organizations how to build processes [13:45] like the whole gamut and then the [13:47] thought was you know look if a couple [13:49] hundred people or a thousand people at [13:51] best follow the blog and they know who I [13:53] am and they like my stuff if I ever need [13:56] another job all I have to do is say on [13:58] the blog hey I'm leaving such and such [14:00] place anybody know of any opportunities [14:03] and I figure you get a thousand people [14:04] out there that could you know that could [14:06] help you find a gig that would shorten [14:07] the process that was the thinking that [14:10] was the logic that was like the first [14:11] kind of personal brand building you know [14:14] in the era before LinkedIn it sounds [14:16] like in 2009 so I think Lincoln was just [14:22] starting or it wasn't very old they were [14:24] around but it wasn't the thing that [14:25] you're describing wasn't very popular on [14:27] LinkedIn at that point which is I don't [14:29] thought leadership as a means of [14:31] professional development no so that's [14:33] what I did and I wrote a blog post for [14:36] seven hundred twelve days straight [14:37] roughly you know I may have missed a [14:39] couple here and there but on ten [14:40] purposes were 712 blog posts in two [14:42] years into it it's just all of a sudden [14:44] I mean look it was incremental but [14:46] people reaching out to me and that my [14:48] stuff was Twitter was big at the time [14:50] Twitter and my stuff was getting [14:51] retweeted all the time and some some [14:53] established people like Jill conrath and [14:55] others took notice and we're sharing my [14:57] stuff and saying pay attention to this [14:58] guy and and blah blah blah blah next [15:01] thing I know yeah I've got people call [15:03] me up asking me to consult with them so [15:06] I know what's my job and started a sales [15:08] guy and the reason it's called the sales [15:09] guy no offense to any of the women are [15:11] out there anything that was the name of [15:13] the blog so I had so much SEO cred and [15:17] so much cred it [15:18] make sense to me to try to come up with [15:20] a new name yeah you can't do it so what [15:23] are the core you know we can I mean this [15:25] will probably move into the the concepts [15:27] of gap selling but when you think about [15:29] what you're teaching you're flying all [15:31] over the world you are obviously a big [15:33] personality but you've got a lot of [15:35] substance to share with people what are [15:37] the main themes that you were that you [15:39] were that you were exhorting and trying [15:42] to get sales people to adopt so that [15:44] they can perform more effectively and [15:45] they can crush it in the way that you [15:46] did thank you great question in your [15:49] right eye I work really really really [15:52] hard on the substance because you have a [15:54] personality like mine and you don't [15:56] conform to the gray suit blue suit tie [16:00] shoe [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] people are looking for a [16:03] reason to discount you there's Lucy [16:05] right so you know I take pride and and [16:09] one of the things that I really lean [16:11] into and I leaned it most of my life but [16:12] didn't understand it until I started [16:15] really breaking down the concept of gap [16:16] selling is that selling is has nothing [16:19] to do with you it is not about you [16:21] nobody could give a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about you or [16:23] your product or your services or [16:25] anything it's not about you yet most [16:28] sales training has always pushed this [16:32] idea that it's about you and your [16:33] product like I remember some of the [16:34] pitches and indexes to get when I first [16:37] started opened up with we remain 500 and [16:39] we have this many employees and we have [16:41] this customer set and we've got this and [16:43] they're talking all about them and the [16:45] product that customs you're on and [16:47] they're like ah just what this is a [16:48] waste waste of my time I don't care and [16:50] so I learned this you know so funny I'll [16:53] take a quick story I learned this a lot [16:55] it's a kid because I used to get in [16:56] trouble a lot as a kid Matt yes shocker [17:01] stupid like rob banks or steal cars or [17:04] stuff like that did stupid stuff that [17:06] drove people crazy anyways I wasn't even [17:08] a kid but one of the me examples was [17:09] when I was um in college I came home one [17:14] night and I had a gene and I was with a [17:17] bunch of buddies like 2:00 in the [17:18] morning and they had this big huge lawn [17:20] they think of an East Coast you know [17:22] Keith's ghost coast school big huge long [17:24] green lawn and and a winding road that [17:27] one [17:28] I don't know what came over me my like [17:30] hey let's go four-wheeling and I just [17:32] drove right across a lot right well of [17:35] course I'm gonna get a cut [17:36] I mean I'm dumber than bricks they get [17:38] caught and the Dean says you're off [17:40] campus they didn't kick me out of school [17:41] they kicked me out of they kicked me out [17:43] off campus well I was an emancipated [17:45] minor I had nowhere to go I lived on [17:48] campus that was my home I didn't make [17:49] enough money to get my own apartment I [17:51] couldn't drive in every day so I looked [17:53] at the I looked at the Dean I said [17:55] listen let me ask you a question is you [17:57] and I knew exactly what I was doing I [17:59] said is your objective to throw me out [18:02] of school and she goes nah look she goes [18:05] you're a good student [18:06] you bring it to small school she goes [18:07] you bring good guys to the school but [18:09] what you did on the car there's [18:11] absolutely positively no way that I'm [18:14] gonna let you let's stay on this campus [18:15] after what you did and I said listen I [18:17] appreciate that [18:18] but if your goal is not to notice that [18:20] you said it twice if your goal is not to [18:22] kick me off campus that is effectively [18:26] what you're doing I'm an emancipated [18:27] minor I cannot afford my own apartment [18:29] we're in Denver and Newton it's too [18:32] expensive I don't have the money I am [18:33] going to just have to drop out so I took [18:37] her I said so what is your objective she [18:39] was you need to be punished for this but [18:41] what I said okay I appreciate that and [18:42] she sat there and she stared at me for [18:44] saying you could see the wheels turning [18:46] because what's happening is her desired [18:50] outcome was not being met by the [18:52] punishment does that make any sense it [18:55] makes sense to me I love what you're [18:57] doing here yes so I just left it there [18:59] and I didn't say another word and she in [19:01] a wheel to turn she goes okay fine I [19:03] don't want to kick you off cameras I [19:04] don't want to undermine your education [19:05] so here's the deal you have to stay off [19:07] campus for two weeks so I hid my [19:10] girlfriend's dormitory and I could come [19:13] to class I just goes minutes right is [19:14] hot like I literally found a way to hide [19:17] out for two weeks and then showed back [19:19] up on campus at night and got back into [19:21] my room and mines my dorm so I tell the [19:23] story in that I learned a long time ago [19:26] that you need to focus on the buyer what [19:28] is the buyers desired outcomes what is [19:30] the [19:31] I want to accomplish what is the BIOS [19:32] current state what makes them unhappy [19:35] with the current state what is the [19:36] future state they're trying to achieve [19:38] and how can you influence that in that [19:41] space between the current state and the [19:42] future state is called the gap and the [19:45] bigger the gap the greater motivation [19:49] they have to buy the more money they'll [19:50] pay the more engaged to be with you and [19:52] the higher probability you have of [19:54] closing the deal and that's what gap [19:57] slang is all about and that's what I [19:58] learned so how do you how do you teach [20:01] it sounds like to the point of gap [20:04] selling the key but tell me if I'm wrong [20:07] the key is making that gap as wide as [20:09] possible and creating just this yawning [20:11] abyss between the current state which is [20:14] I guess hopefully what you're trying to [20:16] get the buyer to understand is that [20:18] their current state is an abysmal you [20:20] know hell hole [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] pile and then the [20:23] future is something beautiful and [20:25] wonderful where everything has changed [20:26] how do you drive that wedge between that [20:29] gap and make it as big as possible [20:31] brilliant right and you nailed it in you [20:34] know you used all the good Kenan words [20:36] but in this one I actually use a much [20:38] subtler but I believe more impactful [20:40] word the current state needs to be [20:42] untenable right yes tenable and one of [20:46] the things I say in training and I say [20:48] in the book and you know and I teach [20:49] people is your job is not to tell the [20:51] customer anything when it comes to their [20:53] current state you cannot tell the [20:55] customer their currency because [20:57] perceptions involved what you can do and [21:00] what you should do is you should ask [21:02] enough questions to uncover the full [21:07] extent and contextual elements of where [21:10] they where they are today and what their [21:12] environment or current state looks like [21:14] and how it exists and so the way that I [21:17] do that is I break it down into five [21:18] sections and your discovery and your [21:21] engagement with your customer you want [21:23] to know as much as you can about the [21:25] literal and physical environment they're [21:27] in and by the way this is it relates to [21:29] the product or service you sell do not [21:30] ask questions that have nothing to do [21:33] with what you sell the outside of the [21:34] context of what you sell but based on [21:36] what you sell you want to ask as many [21:38] questions and you want to uncover the [21:40] physical and little [21:41] environment in which that buyer is [21:43] currently living in existing and what I [21:45] mean by physical a little it's not the [21:47] problems yet it's not that it's just [21:49] it's the non-judgmental stuff right so [21:52] if let's say you sell cyber security I'm [21:55] making this up as I go some probably [21:56] stumble but you just want to you may [21:58] want to ask questions about the type of [22:00] systems that use today is it on premise [22:02] off Prem what type of software is it [22:05] who's involved how BIG's the [22:06] organization you know blah blah blah you [22:08] just want you just want to get the [22:09] physical literal that's all you want but [22:12] then from there you want to understand [22:14] what are the problems within that [22:16] current situation and you want this talk [22:19] talking but we can't do this we can't do [22:21] this we're getting um phishing more [22:23] phishing attacks ones like we can't stop [22:24] as many phishing attacks we can't train [22:26] out people they're not they're not [22:27] following the rules like they're not [22:29] taking the training they're below us so [22:31] now I know the problems then it's from [22:33] there I want to dig a little deeper to [22:35] see I want to get to the impact of those [22:36] problems so because no fishing deals are [22:38] getting because people aren't taking the [22:39] training because of this because that [22:40] we're getting actually more malware [22:42] weapon to buy more computers we have to [22:44] shut down the network where people to [22:46] come in to in the morning we missed our [22:48] numbers for q4 you know we got sued [22:50] we're out of compliance we were a [22:52] lawsuit over HIPAA like ok whew that's [22:54] the big impacts then I want to go the [22:56] next level I won't understand ok what's [22:58] the the general emotional state of [23:00] what's going on and it could be [23:01] indifference it could be fear it could [23:03] be anger it and so what I understand [23:04] that now I've got a good really good [23:07] understanding the last thing I want now [23:08] is the root cause I want to be able to [23:11] ask them or in or suggest them what the [23:13] root cause might be because the root [23:16] cause then acts as my conduit to my [23:19] service because if I know the root cause [23:21] or I could explain to them what the root [23:22] cause right and get them to agree with [23:24] the root causes and my product or [23:26] service eradicate or addresses the root [23:29] cause I have just created a seamless [23:31] transition from their current state to [23:35] the desired future state and then I go [23:36] into that so understanding what are you [23:38] guys shooting for from a cyber security [23:39] perspective what are the future goals [23:42] what is it you're hoping to accomplish [23:43] how would you measure success and you do [23:45] the same thing with the future state [23:47] physical literal problem what problems [23:50] go away the new impact [23:52] how is the organization gonna be [23:53] impacted by the new solution the new [23:55] desired emotional state and then finally [23:57] that flip side of the root cause is what [23:58] is the solution they're going to employ [24:00] what a solution you could employ when [24:02] you take a buyer through that whole [24:03] process do you don't have to do anything [24:06] they basically sell themselves they tell [24:09] you everything and they just walked [24:12] themselves right through the door [24:13] that sounds sounds sort of like easy to [24:16] describe but hard to implement and one [24:19] of the examples that you've given me in [24:20] the past that I thought was awesome was [24:22] this concept of was the example about a [24:25] test how much would you take to pass [24:27] this no it was um it was like how much [24:29] would you take to save your life walk us [24:31] through that met yeah exactly yeah the [24:34] pill metaphor I tell us all the time I [24:36] love this so what I say to people they [24:39] lose it in my training I asked them okay [24:40] how many of you have ever had a migraine [24:42] and a few people hit me and I said okay [24:44] well those of you had it you're gonna [24:45] appreciate this I want everybody here to [24:47] imagine they have a blistering [24:49] blistering blistering migraine headache [24:51] light-sensitive noise sensitive you [24:55] can't get out of bed at Sunday morning [24:57] and you can't get out of bed you can't [24:59] do anything and I say how many of you [25:01] would pay five bucks for that every hand [25:03] goes up and I say keep the hands up [25:05] until you wouldn't pay it and I say [25:07] fifty bucks [25:08] hundred bucks and hands start to come [25:09] down around a hundred or two hundred a [25:10] few more and around five hundred it's [25:13] fascinating like I should like this is [25:14] really cool study almost every time I do [25:16] this right around $500 is where you the [25:19] majority of people's hands go down no [25:20] matter what group it's powerful so I [25:23] said okay great [25:24] I said now let me ask you a few more [25:26] questions before you decide I said how [25:27] many is what if I asked you what do you [25:30] have to do tomorrow and and you told me [25:32] that you ever and he said oh yeah right [25:34] I have a proposal do and I said oh [25:37] what's the proposal for and you tell me [25:38] it sales proposals I said how much is it [25:40] worth and you say it's worth fifty [25:42] million dollars and I said no kidding [25:44] and I'm saying what's your commission on [25:46] it you like fifty thousand dollars I'm [25:47] like you've got a proposal for 50 [25:51] million dollars in which fifty thousand [25:52] dollar Commission do to you do tomorrow [25:55] and you say yes I see is it done and you [25:57] say no I said can you get it done with [25:58] the central headache you say no I say [26:00] how would you call it and you say my [26:02] quota is [26:03] is 20 million so he's gonna double your [26:05] quota you say yes this is gonna send you [26:07] on President's Club you say yes I say [26:08] what about accelerators you guys have [26:10] accelerated you say oh my god I was even [26:11] thinking about that yes I would hit [26:12] accelerators I said this thing is worth [26:15] anywhere from fifty to a hundred [26:16] thousand dollars to you go yes and I [26:18] said well how much would you pay for a [26:20] pill now would you pay a thousand bucks [26:21] all the hands go back up right and I say [26:25] would you pay two thousand five thousand [26:27] around five or seven thousand all the [26:29] hands come back down and I said okay [26:30] great now that I've got seven thousand I [26:32] you let me ask you another question [26:33] before before we make this transaction [26:35] said how long has this been going on and [26:36] you say to me it's pretty yes I've never [26:38] had these headaches in my entire life [26:40] into the last four months and then I say [26:42] what is hurt they say that's weird it [26:43] hurts in one particular spot and then I [26:45] say okay wait does it ever mess with [26:47] your motor skills they say yes when I [26:49] reach for my glasses or I guten if I [26:51] miss them more I stumble a little and I [26:53] said mind if I take a picture I eat em I [26:55] ride you say yes and I say boom you've [26:57] got a malignant brain tumor [26:59] you're gonna die once Jesus yes right [27:02] and I see you die in six months my pill [27:04] will solve that problem to get rid of [27:06] the malignant brain tumor and I say so I [27:09] said how many of you will pay ten [27:10] thousand dollars a pill now all the [27:12] hands go back up and then I say how many [27:15] big 50 thousand a hundred thousand a [27:16] million like every hand stays up and [27:18] then I still keep put your hands back [27:20] down now I'll put these back then I said [27:22] I want to do one more thing I said now [27:23] that you've all been I cured you all [27:25] cancer you love this pill you come work [27:27] for me and now you have to sell this [27:29] pill and then you you have some guy on [27:31] the phone who you just find out his [27:32] malignant brain tumor and he's gonna die [27:34] in six months and you in the pills a [27:36] million dollars how many of you come [27:37] back and put in the CRM that this deal [27:40] is gonna close and you tell you man you [27:41] promptly gonna close this million dollar [27:42] deal about 7/8 of the hands go up and I [27:46] said now hold on a second let me ask her [27:48] a question how old is this guy and they [27:52] all just stop and stare at me and I say [27:54] and he says I say he's 90 years old and [27:56] he lives in a nursing home and his kids [28:00] haven't come to see him in 18 months he [28:02] hadn't seen his grandkids in two years [28:04] and all the people he went into the [28:05] nursing home with a debt except one [28:07] other person who he'd only like yeah who [28:10] doesn't like I said how many people [28:13] think that [28:13] person's gonna pay a million dollars all [28:15] the hands went back down and so what I [28:18] do is to illustrate this is front-end [28:21] purposes the pain and the problem is the [28:24] same it's the outcome it's the space [28:28] between the currency in the future state [28:30] that gap that drives the sale so in the [28:34] first one when you could sit around on [28:35] Sunday and drive and ride it out it [28:37] wasn't a very big gap in the second [28:39] scenario when you've got all this money [28:41] in hand and your jobs at hand etcetera [28:43] it was a much bigger captaining I spend [28:45] more time and effort to solve it and the [28:46] next one were you're 35 years old or 40 [28:48] years old you're gonna die soon you're [28:50] not gonna see your kids graduate from [28:51] high school you're not gonna walk your [28:52] daughter down the lane down the aisle [28:54] and for a marriage you're like hell [28:55] though I'm gonna die it's every subbies [28:57] gap in the entire world [28:59] but then when I bring it down and say [29:01] you're 90 95 years old living in a [29:02] nursing home go see your kids you're [29:04] still dying just like the 34 year old [29:07] but the impact of that is not nearly as [29:09] big so now you shrunk the gap and so [29:13] we're selling and we don't understand [29:15] the size of the gap we're not selling [29:18] we're taking orders because we have no [29:21] influence on the sale whatsoever [29:24] that's what gaps talking about that's [29:26] the metaphor is it as simple if you know [29:29] if you're a salesperson out there [29:30] listening and you want to start it you [29:31] know you're excited about this podcast [29:33] you're if you're inspired by what you're [29:35] saying is it as simple as just you know [29:37] stop talking so much and start asking [29:39] more questions is that a good way to [29:41] start practicing are you inspired Sam my [29:44] inspiring you and I'm extremely expired [29:48] do i how do I sound [29:50] I usually sound like I'm just above [29:52] catatonic so maybe you know it's like [29:59] it's all about my context in the gap [30:01] it's the impact look it's not easy and I [30:05] I'm not gonna [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] people and try to [30:07] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] people and I even with some of [30:09] my clients I say you need to understand [30:10] that some of you people will not be able [30:11] to pull this off you have to be smart [30:14] you have to listen I do all kinds of [30:18] exercise to show people that they're so [30:21] entrenched and trying to get the [30:23] customer to answer a certain way [30:26] or they're looking for a certain answer [30:27] that they're not actually thinking [30:29] through the process right so I was [30:32] literally so you have to ask questions [30:36] that allow you to understand where the [30:41] customer is where they could go what [30:44] things could be affecting them and if [30:46] you can't do that you're just not going [30:49] to be able to get to the depth that you [30:50] want so I tell people you have to to [30:53] have phenomenal critical thinking skills [30:55] you have to have excellent business [30:58] acumen and off-the-charts listening [31:00] skills and I guess it goes with critical [31:02] thinking amazing connect-the-dot [31:04] intuitiveness that you realize oh this [31:07] means this and that means that and that [31:09] means that so here's a good example [31:10] I was in a training yesterday with a [31:12] with a sko for client right they sell a [31:15] service that allows the adoption and use [31:20] of software applications to be magnified [31:23] like they minimize people would adjourn [31:27] when people don't use don't use an [31:28] application so a company spends a lot of [31:30] money to put in Salesforce and no one [31:32] uses that type of thing right yeah well [31:33] their their application solves that what [31:36] also helps companies who have software [31:39] externally so let's say you're slack and [31:41] you're trying to build in all these [31:43] users and people come on and they try a [31:44] free trial for once and they never come [31:46] back and use it let's that's lost [31:48] potential revenue so this company solves [31:50] that problem well I asked them how many [31:52] of you have had the conversation with [31:55] the potential client about what their [31:59] growth goals are are they on the growth [32:04] goals and if not what is the difference [32:07] with the swish should they be today [32:09] where are they today where do they want [32:11] to be tomorrow and none of the people [32:13] ever had those types of conversations [32:14] and I was like that's really different a [32:17] school like none of them thought oh man [32:19] they're successful they're growing like [32:20] weeds but they don't think like that I [32:22] also said the same thing inside I said [32:24] how many of you ever asked the CIO or [32:26] the head of sales when they invested in [32:28] workday they invested in Salesforce they [32:30] invested in X Y Z s AP how many to ask [32:33] them what was the business case [32:38] for that application and are you meeting [32:41] the business case today none of them [32:44] ever asked that question I don't even [32:46] work for them and within two minutes of [32:48] talking to them and I'm stating their [32:49] business I was like well that's how you [32:50] sell it if I have invested a hundred [32:52] twenty million dollars and implementing [32:54] a software application somewhere there's [32:56] a business case it on supposed to get [32:57] some productivity returns right yeah and [33:00] so if I'm not getting those productivity [33:02] returns I'm losing in the business case [33:03] you're telling me you can get me back to [33:06] those productivity returns because [33:07] that's what your product does so how in [33:09] the world is nobody having that [33:11] conversation with anybody blew me away [33:14] yeah put me away well hopefully they [33:17] yeah go they got it now [33:20] oh they figured out they got it now [33:21] smart people great group of people I [33:23] love them most people it's just not [33:29] intuitive it's just not intuitive wanna [33:31] you know there's this concept that you [33:33] talk about a lot the difference between [33:35] problem centric selling which is I think [33:37] what we're talking about a little bit in [33:39] product centric first I think [33:41] definitions are helpful so walk us [33:42] through the difference between problem [33:44] centric and product centric and then [33:46] talk to us about why product centric [33:47] selling doesn't work so the the [33:51] basically products that you're selling [33:52] puts your product at the core right it's [33:55] about the features it's about the [33:56] benefit it's about what your product can [33:57] do it selling parts within the market [33:59] it's how it was developed it's just [34:00] constantly focusing on the technology [34:03] right the service that that because the [34:07] enablement element of it problem centric [34:09] selling actually starts with uncovering [34:12] assessing evaluating and focusing on [34:14] solving the problem so in in product [34:19] centric selling right product centric [34:21] salespeople talked about the product [34:23] they focused in their company they tell [34:24] they explain they're motivated by quota [34:26] our product experts have technical [34:28] discussions right they react to demand I [34:31] need this I need that right their emails [34:33] and cold calls go on say I'd like to [34:35] talk to you about my product right can [34:37] I'd like to talk about how my product [34:39] can do this problem centric sales people [34:41] actually talk about business problems [34:43] not the product they focus on the buyer [34:45] not their company they ask questions and [34:48] quiet rather than tell explain they're [34:50] motivated by the customers success not [34:52] by quota they're more like a business [34:55] analyst they've business discussions [34:57] they can create demand as opposed to [34:59] react to demand they really have to [35:02] compete on price where product sector [35:03] product centric people have to compete [35:05] on price all the time right problem [35:07] centric people can challenge the buyer [35:09] they control the sale they focus on the [35:11] outcome product centric people and [35:14] product centric selling they can't [35:15] control the sale because they've been [35:16] holdin to what their product or service [35:18] can do they're not connected to the [35:20] problem they sell features and benefits [35:22] they close out at the end it's [35:23] completely different it's an entirely [35:25] different concept it flips the whole [35:27] script on its head how do you move from [35:29] product centric to problem centric stop [35:31] thinking about your product [35:33] I can literally if you tell me what your [35:36] product solves the problem your product [35:39] solves I can sell it without talking [35:43] about the actual product until the [35:46] customer says I'm ready to buy so we've [35:49] talked about this in the past and one of [35:51] the the Lost Tapes of the Jacobs Keenan [35:57] like it's like the Capone Al Capone I [36:01] don't know you know I don't know where [36:02] I'm going with this but but the rosetta [36:04] stone anyway the point is that the last [36:07] time we were on the phone we were [36:08] talking about here's here's a challenge [36:11] which is that most of the especially in [36:13] the mid market sales cycle the second [36:16] step or maybe the third maybe the first [36:18] step is qualification maybe the second [36:20] step is discovery the third is it's [36:22] called demo and it's all about typically [36:27] the product and it's a bunch of you know [36:30] sales people that have been trained that [36:31] they need to give the demo the path to [36:33] close is to give the demo and you know [36:36] in the course of that demo most of the [36:38] time they're not even they're not even [36:39] asking any questions they're sort of [36:41] just clicking through a bunch of buttons [36:42] and stuff like that so do you think that [36:44] that's a big problem do you coach people [36:46] to stop relying on the demo have you [36:48] seen people that don't even have a demo [36:50] at all for a software product what's [36:52] your thoughts on that [36:53] I love demos but you got to do them [36:55] right right [36:56] if you here's the key with the demo you [36:59] do a demo until you know what the [37:01] problem is until you get the customer to [37:04] say oh yeah this is my problem and I [37:06] want to solve it and I believe you can [37:09] solve it right and the reason you can [37:11] get them to believe you can solve it is [37:13] because if you ask the right questions [37:14] and you uncover the problem and you [37:16] demonstrate your understanding awareness [37:19] of the the depth of the problem the [37:21] impact of the problem and all of that [37:23] they automatically by default believe [37:26] you can solve the problem like you've [37:28] never been to a doctor and they ain't [37:29] ask you really we go in and say oh I'm [37:31] I'm not feeling a certain way or I'm [37:33] having trouble with this and some [37:35] doctors asked one or two questions and [37:36] just send you on your way other doctors [37:38] actually random like left field [37:40] questions and you know what is that [37:42] about and obvious and they get around to [37:43] yeah you know I think it might be this [37:45] you know now I know why they ask those [37:47] questions right and so when a doctor [37:50] asks really random questions it [37:52] demonstrates a high understanding of the [37:54] problem does that not increase your [37:56] comfort level or belief that they can [37:58] solve your problem very much so yes for [38:02] that we'll have to tell people miss is [38:03] it's not your command as a solution that [38:06] gets you the credibility it's your [38:07] command of the problem that drives your [38:10] credibility your understanding of the [38:12] problem is what drives you credibility [38:14] so once you understand then it comes [38:16] time to do the demo you only do a demo [38:18] that addresses the things they said the [38:19] problem that affects them so you could [38:21] have a million different features on [38:22] your freaking product or service but you [38:24] should only show six of them are five of [38:26] them and they should directly and [38:28] specifically attached to the problems [38:32] that they told you they were struggling [38:34] with or wanted to solve or couldn't live [38:37] with in their current state [38:38] that's all you show so you get on the [38:40] dummies to Haley no you say Sam you told [38:43] me that you guys were struggling with X [38:45] let me show you how we can solve that [38:47] using this tool with this feature if you [38:50] also said that you this happened to you [38:52] at this particular time and that can't [38:53] have anymore [38:54] let me show you how we manage that so [38:56] that won't happen you told me that [38:58] you're trying to achieve X Y Z let me [39:00] show you how I influx capacitator okay [39:03] well we'll get you to that spot in a nap [39:07] sorry go no I was just gonna ask you [39:09] have you been watching a lot of Back to [39:10] the Future recently [39:13] because it's just a perfect filler for [39:15] any crazy product whisper cottage it's [39:18] I'm sorry I interrupted you I probably [39:20] made you lose your train of thought it's [39:22] fine once you show four or five of those [39:25] and you show the customer out the [39:28] problems they have go away with what you [39:29] just showed them and you anchor than him [39:32] and you say can you see how this is [39:33] going to do that can you see how this [39:35] will keep that from happening can you [39:37] see how you be able to generate more X [39:38] through this as long as they say yes you [39:41] win you're done I love it I have a we're [39:44] almost at a time so I have my here's my [39:46] last I have two more questions if you [39:48] have time for them do you have time for [39:49] two more questions yes yes the first [39:52] question is what are your top one two [39:54] two strategies for closing the business [39:56] so a lot of reps especially early stage [39:59] reps you know they get to this point [40:00] where they are having a great [40:01] conversation they feel like they've [40:02] asked all those questions but they lack [40:04] the mechanism in a way similar to like [40:07] the muscle memory of swinging a bat [40:09] comparing it to baseball of how do I get [40:11] to the point where this person is [40:13] signing a contract so do you have any [40:15] recommended closing strategies that you [40:17] use no closing closing is a waste of [40:20] time it's it's it's BS if you have to [40:22] close at the end you didn't do something [40:24] in the beginning right now with that [40:26] said there I'll steal a phrase because I [40:30] think it's a good one from a boy Antonia [40:31] nariño he calls them micro commitments I [40:34] think and and I call him the next yes [40:37] but I like my commitment so you close by [40:41] getting the buyer to come along with you [40:43] on the journey and by checking off all [40:46] the concerns and issues have so when I [40:48] first when I find out the current state [40:51] and they acknowledge that current state [40:52] is correct then I find out the future [40:54] state and they acknowledge the future [40:55] stays correct then I find out the gap [40:57] they acknowledged the gap then I share [40:59] with them the solution and they [41:01] acknowledge they even said that I anchor [41:02] them in the solution and they say it's [41:05] there as I move through that process [41:07] they're closing themselves so you should [41:11] get to the very end if there's been [41:13] times where I've done this on the phone [41:14] I've got [41:15] done the discovery I've gotten [41:16] everything I've told them what we do and [41:17] then I just be quiet and they're like [41:20] alright I think this is gonna work what [41:22] are the next steps to getting this [41:22] wrapped up [41:23] can I have to ask for the clothes but I [41:26] just need to know that I brought them [41:27] along the reason people used to ask for [41:29] closes in the past is because they ran [41:32] too far ahead of the salesperson a [41:34] hundred percent product-centric [41:35] and they just really not had a [41:37] salesperson ahead of the buyer right on [41:39] eccentric they threw out all the [41:41] features and benefits they talked about [41:43] how great the product was they picked up [41:45] on one potential need of the customer [41:46] some cheesy need spoke randomly about [41:49] that got all the way to the end and the [41:51] customers sitting there maybe understood [41:53] maybe can they say so what do you think [41:55] let's do this well they have to say what [41:57] do you think let's do this because they [41:59] don't know what the customer thinks they [42:00] weren't there like they didn't bring the [42:02] customer long they Rin six miles and [42:04] have to look back and say okay you ready [42:05] so know if you're closing at the end [42:08] you're a shitty salesperson you messed [42:09] up I love it alright last question [42:11] similar to maybe a controversial opinion [42:13] but this is this is fresh this is fresh [42:16] question here because I was on LinkedIn [42:18] this week and you did a video where you [42:20] said you're no more scripts and that [42:23] generated a lot of outrage from a lot of [42:25] different sales consultants and people [42:27] that were yelling at you and very angry [42:29] with you I'm giving you an opportunity [42:30] to defend yourself and explain what you [42:33] mean when you say no more scripts so my [42:38] position on scripts and what I think is [42:39] interesting a lot of these cats are [42:41] coming back and basically using the [42:43] moniker script for freaking everything [42:46] right so my definition of script is when [42:50] you write down something and you put it [42:52] in front of the sales person and the [42:54] sales person is supposed to use that to [42:56] drive the conversation where they need [42:58] to read it verbatim where they need to [43:00] use it as talking points where they need [43:02] to use it is as a guide to talk on the [43:06] phone that's a script to me and what I [43:08] say is I don't want my sales pitch [43:09] people having to look and anything to [43:13] guide the conversation because if you're [43:16] if it's a script of command statements [43:19] and things you're supposed to tell [43:20] somebody [43:21] then you're not selling because selling [43:23] is not telling I don't want you telling [43:25] the customer [43:26] we have are you telling the customer [43:27] anything anything [43:29] Baez you don't tell by his anything and [43:30] some people keep magnets as well you can [43:32] help them with the questions okay so [43:34] maybe you can put one starter question [43:37] in your script but other than that you [43:39] if you had a true script and it was all [43:41] questions you'd have the most ridiculous [43:44] giant if-then hierarchy that went 20 [43:49] things deep because you cannot [43:50] anticipate the answers to the question [43:52] so the salesperson knows what question [43:54] to ask next time when that person [43:57] answers the question right it'd be this [43:58] pathetic if then you ask one question if [44:01] this answer than this if this then this [44:04] if this is it's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] that's what I [44:06] said is simple being a salesperson like [44:08] a doctor because everybody could came [44:09] back and said oh well well you know Tom [44:12] Brady is going to fear without a script [44:13] his playbook and oh you know Oscar [44:16] people to go up on stage and they have [44:17] this scripts of saying thank you and [44:19] actors have their scripts and I'm like [44:21] exactly and every one of those [44:23] situations their job is to tell their [44:27] job is not interaction and actor doesn't [44:28] interact Brady's not interact with his [44:30] team he's telling his team what to do [44:32] he's commanding his team what to do the [44:33] person saying thank he was telling [44:35] people thank you our job as sales he was [44:37] to diagnose we need to uncover the [44:40] problem so what I said is it's like a [44:42] doctor much better parallels to the [44:46] doctor and you can't give a doctor a [44:47] script you can't and say here's a script [44:50] doc and when someone comes in this is [44:52] what you say no well you do what do you [44:53] do with the doctor Sam you will educate [44:55] the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] out of them [44:57] so they have a massive command of the [45:01] elements an oncologist doesn't need a [45:04] script [45:05] because he or she understands the kid [45:08] sir why it's created the treatment where [45:12] it starts how it progresses the [45:14] different stages how it presents itself [45:16] as symptoms how to triage it right they [45:18] know all of this so when they come in [45:21] you didn't know what questions they know [45:23] what question is start with and then [45:25] they know in their head based on your [45:27] answer what question to ask next and [45:29] based on your answer what question to [45:30] ask next there is a script they're [45:33] knowledgeable and that's what I said on [45:35] the video which everybody missed [45:37] I said you need to start teaching your [45:39] salespeople and your sti's and BTR's [45:41] the business that they're in and the [45:44] problems and issues and impact and [45:47] challenges their customers are having [45:48] and make them experts in those so they [45:51] can engage them on the fly without a [45:54] fricking threat I feel yeah I love it I [45:58] love it and I feel your passion and I [46:01] think I do think it's inspiring because [46:03] we need more of that all right we're at [46:05] the end of our time together the book is [46:07] called gap selling where do you have a [46:09] place we where you would prefer that we [46:10] buy it [46:11] do you work all right go to Amazon it's [46:15] called gap selling and then if we want [46:16] to hire a sales guy is it just a sales [46:18] guy com is there a preferred way that we [46:20] should get in touch with you if we want [46:22] to interact with you if we want to hire [46:23] you you know we've got listeners they [46:24] want to reach out to you how should they [46:26] reach out to you a sales guy dot-com and [46:28] you know the form is all kinds of [46:30] information as a form if you want to try [46:31] what consulting or training and then if [46:34] you want just to [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] with me on the [46:35] side or connect LinkedIn I'm all over [46:37] LinkedIn just hit me up all right we [46:40] will Keenan thanks so much for being on [46:42] the show and I'm glad that this time it [46:44] looks like the recording went through [46:46] just don't close your browser when I [46:47] click stop I promise [46:51] no chance you don't have to apologize we [46:54] need more people fired up the world's [46:56] too uninteresting otherwise alright [46:57] thanks for being on the show I'll talk [46:58] to you soon thank you baby [47:01] [Music] [47:06] everybody it's Sam's corner that was [47:09] uninspired and exciting an inspiring [47:12] interview with Kenan we're lucky to have [47:14] him on the show he's a passionate Sales [47:17] Leader and thought leader and I really [47:19] enjoyed the conversation I think if we [47:21] want to take away a couple things from [47:22] the from the talk the focus and the [47:25] emphasis on gap selling is really about [47:27] great discovery and it's about being [47:30] problem centric versus product centric [47:32] to so many startups the the obsession [47:36] with how the product works driven by the [47:38] engineering team and by the founders [47:39] it's often a little misplaced you know I [47:41] worked at a company and many many times [47:43] folks are lecturing you know the sales [47:46] people on that they don't understand the [47:47] product they don't understand how it [47:49] works but there's there's three pillars [47:51] to this stool one of them is how the [47:53] product looks in product specific [47:55] expertise we we do need that because we [47:57] need to know how it functions and why it [48:00] functions the way it does but there are [48:02] two other critical elements one of them [48:03] is how to sell so sales expertise and [48:06] the third is industry expertise [48:08] understanding the industry and the buyer [48:10] that you're talking to and really the [48:13] the latter two are more important than [48:15] than the first one you need to know what [48:17] product what problems your product [48:19] solves but knowing how it works and [48:21] whether it's using Hadoop or whether [48:23] it's you you know whether what type of [48:25] data like you're creating is really [48:27] secondary to the problems that [48:28] technology is intended to solve and that [48:31] comes to great discovery and so Keenan [48:33] over and over is emphasizing you've got [48:35] to ask questions you've got to use [48:37] silence to your advantage and you have [48:39] to understand and use empathy to put [48:42] yourself in the perspective of the [48:43] buyers shoes you have to understand what [48:45] she is thinking how does she approach [48:47] your day and you have to get the answers [48:49] to those questions by asking those [48:51] questions and so really again and again [48:53] in sales you're gonna hear about the [48:55] power of great discovery and why it's so [48:57] important you need to be great at asking [48:59] questions if you're gonna be great at [49:01] sales you do not need to be good at [49:02] telling people things right telling [49:04] people things is not what sales is about [49:06] sales is about listening so that you can [49:09] match the needs of the buyer and the [49:11] problems that they're facing to the [49:14] solutions that your product delivers but [49:17] you cannot [49:18] deliver any kind of solution in the [49:20] absence of context and understanding of [49:22] your buyer and that is why it's so [49:23] important to be problem centric not [49:25] product centric as Keenan mentioned so [49:28] this has been Sam's corner now as always [49:31] we want to thank our sponsors [49:32] those are chorus deleting conversation [49:35] intelligence platform for hybrid sales [49:37] teams and outreach the leading sales [49:39] engagement platform if you want to get [49:41] in touch with me you're always free to [49:42] do so [49:43] find me on LinkedIn at LinkedIn com /the [49:46] word in and then forward slash Sam F [49:48] Jacobs it's been great hearing from so [49:50] many different people so many different [49:52] people frankly that want to join revenue [49:54] collective from all these different [49:55] cities and are reaching out to me to [49:56] understand how so if you're a VP level [49:58] sales marketing or operating executive [50:01] that wants to understand more should [50:02] reach out but if you have feedback on [50:04] the show and you want and you want to [50:05] talk more about how we can improve this [50:07] short reach out in that case as well [50:09] otherwise as you know I will see you [50:11] next time [50:13] [Music] [50:17] you [50:17] [Music]

===FILE=== uC_xh2zrE_w - SaaSy Talk S01.09 Gap Selling and Beyond Mastering the Art of Problem-Centric Sales with K.txt
https://youtu.be/uC_xh2zrE_w
SaaSy Talk S01.09: Gap Selling and Beyond: Mastering the Art of Problem-Centric Sales with Keenan
[0:00] they're full of [ __ ] [ __ ] they're
[0:02] full of [ __ ] [ __ ] here's the deal
[0:04] okay I don't know how you gotta be so
[0:05] fired up so early you can oh [ __ ]
[0:08] product LED grow okay you can sell
[0:10] things but again let's use another
[0:12] metaphor really good selling is training
[0:16] us to baseball a really good talented
[0:17] baseball player may be able to hit 250
[0:19] 275 280 right you got a really damn good
[0:23] person who starts taking in the science
[0:25] of the game and puts in the extra effort
[0:27] they're gonna break that [ __ ] to 320
[0:29] 325. right now nobody's running a
[0:32] product LED growth strategy with 340
[0:35] convergence they're full of [ __ ] [ __ ]
[0:36] it just not happening nor are they
[0:39] maximizing the average deal size no it's
[0:42] just more [ __ ] [ __ ] of trying to
[0:44] get around the truth they don't know how
[0:47] to sell so they're just gonna go this
[0:48] route
[0:49] foreign
[0:51] welcome to the show excited to have you
[0:54] man thanks for making the time so let's
[0:56] get right into it I want to take you
[0:57] back to where you're kicked off like how
[0:59] did you get into sales I don't know man
[1:01] the real answer is a friend of mine just
[1:04] thought I'd be really good at it I was
[1:05] in South Beach Miami modeling I was a
[1:08] model when I was younger in my mid to
[1:10] late early to mid 20s and modeling is
[1:13] very much I like it to baseball so she
[1:16] have small markets so if you want a
[1:18] baseball and then they have media
[1:19] markets double A and then you have
[1:20] bigger markets Triple A and then you
[1:22] have New York and Milan and that's the
[1:24] majors right and so most people work
[1:26] their way up and you get more and more
[1:28] pictures and more and more known and one
[1:30] of the ways to do that was go to South
[1:31] Beach so I was in South Beach trying to
[1:33] build my book is what it's called and
[1:35] get all the bigger agencies and get more
[1:37] exposure and he called me up and he said
[1:39] hey dog I got a job so you need to come
[1:40] home so I sat did the math and I was
[1:43] like even if I crush this as a dude
[1:45] maybe I make a half million a year for
[1:47] three four five six years maybe if
[1:49] that's some of the top one percent of
[1:51] one percent all male models and I was
[1:52] like or I knew I wasn't dumb I said go
[1:54] back get a real job get into a high
[1:56] powered position next three or four
[1:58] years and make that the rest of my life
[1:59] so I was like [ __ ] it I'll go home so I
[2:01] went home and took the jobs that you
[2:03] have it man as it looks faded than ahead
[2:04] of the whole Gap selling come about [ __ ]
[2:07] that was a long journey I mean look cap
[2:09] selling came because I had started a
[2:12] Consulting practice in 2011 and
[2:15] everybody kept asking me it do I do
[2:17] training I said no I don't do training
[2:19] because I don't have a training and I'm
[2:20] not gonna just copy what every asshat
[2:22] has already done and so I didn't have a
[2:25] training I just did Consulting and then
[2:27] I started thinking I should probably I
[2:29] wrote a small book called not talk that
[2:32] was more of a fun like success book and
[2:34] I had fun writing that and I was like
[2:36] every time I read a sales book so I sat
[2:38] down and started writing the sales book
[2:39] and I just went through the blog helped
[2:42] big time I've been blogging for 10 years
[2:43] so pretty close to 10 years so I started
[2:45] going through all my [ __ ] and blogs
[2:47] started going through all my notes with
[2:48] all my clients and started to see that
[2:50] I'd actually had framework that I was
[2:52] using that wasn't aware that I was using
[2:54] so let me phrase it I wasn't aware of it
[2:57] so then I started putting all the pieces
[2:59] together and voila out came the app
[3:00] selling I think that's a Sally employing
[3:02] I think a lot of people when they're
[3:03] running their business they have some
[3:04] sort of framework but they don't
[3:05] actually realize I have a framework it's
[3:07] not documented it's not something that's
[3:09] that they've articulated down it's just
[3:11] something they're doing because they've
[3:12] done it look it more it's totally wrong
[3:14] because I remember specific ity where a
[3:16] couple of the real key tenants came from
[3:18] and the key tenet of the Gap itself I
[3:21] remember I was with a client and I was
[3:23] working with this one guy and he was a
[3:25] nice guy his name was Rob he was a nice
[3:27] guy he was their number one seller he
[3:28] meant well but he [ __ ] drove me crazy
[3:30] because he would never it would be in
[3:31] pipeline reviews and all his answers
[3:33] were always the [ __ ] same and he
[3:35] couldn't give me any data information he
[3:37] just kept oh it's going to close they
[3:38] told me he's going to close they love it
[3:39] I've shown it to and it drove me crazy
[3:41] so finally I said look Robert I don't
[3:43] give a [ __ ] what the customer said why
[3:45] do they need it they need it because
[3:46] they have disparate systems like I don't
[3:48] give a [ __ ] they have dispersistence why
[3:50] is the fact that disparate systems
[3:52] matter and he just sat there and stared
[3:54] at and I was like so you don't have a
[3:55] clue he goes if they can't do this and
[3:58] this without with this do they need to
[3:59] do that he goes I don't know I said what
[4:01] I needed to do is I need you to go back
[4:03] and I want you to find where the [ __ ]
[4:04] are they right now what are they trying
[4:05] to do what can't they do what's
[4:07] happening and when you're done with that
[4:08] I want you something what are they
[4:09] trying to do where they want to go they
[4:11] can fix this or whatever the problem is
[4:13] where they want to go when you're done
[4:14] there should be a gap in there somewhere
[4:16] if that Gap is big enough for them to
[4:17] spend the money then I'll talk to you
[4:19] about this account but until then I'm
[4:20] going to spend another minute on this or
[4:22] the rest of your account so they all
[4:23] look exactly the same and I sat down I
[4:25] took a deep breath and I looked up on
[4:26] the wall because I drew it up on the
[4:27] wall I'm like oh that's pretty good I
[4:29] took a picture so then when I came back
[4:30] to write the book that was front and
[4:32] center nice you make it sound so
[4:34] appealing and say make it sound so
[4:35] almost damn obvious but the amount of
[4:38] playbooks that I've come across they
[4:40] just copy paste they cloned they're
[4:42] [ __ ] so how do you stand out if you're
[4:44] doing the same thing everybody else is
[4:45] done you're not going to stick up what
[4:47] everybody's trying to do is they're
[4:48] trying to stick out based on their
[4:49] prompt I don't care how much [ __ ]
[4:51] time and talk sales organizations are
[4:54] going to give to this idea of better
[4:56] selling they're not because it dusted
[4:59] off and you feel it back they're trying
[5:01] to create their differentiation through
[5:02] the front and there's nothing wrong with
[5:04] having a badass product the better your
[5:06] product the better you can sell it but
[5:08] the product is only the solution at the
[5:11] end of the Discovery at the end of the
[5:14] problem so I'll be at the end of the
[5:15] uncovering if you want for the diagnosis
[5:17] and so my most people are still using a
[5:19] product-centric model to differentiate
[5:22] they are taking the time or they're not
[5:24] trying to do the due diligence to really
[5:26] go deeper on what sales is really about
[5:28] and what the exercises and elements to
[5:31] really good selling looks like because
[5:33] it's hard and because you can't
[5:35] systematize you can't put it in a
[5:37] document you can't wash rinse repeat you
[5:39] can't give everybody a list with [ __ ]
[5:41] 50 questions to ask no it requires some
[5:45] improvisation I don't know all due
[5:47] respect on how much you guys know about
[5:48] jazz being all the way over the other
[5:50] side of the country the world but if
[5:51] you're familiar with improvisational
[5:53] Jazz right improvisational Jazz like
[5:55] gyro Morton or John Coltrane and stuff
[5:58] like that they improvise but there is
[6:01] still a structure that they follow
[6:03] through the improvisation and when they
[6:07] begin the improvisation I believe sales
[6:09] is very similar you have a frame but
[6:12] it's mostly improvisation and
[6:14] organizations don't know how to do what
[6:16] are scare to do it have been recognized
[6:17] it needs to be done and or just flat or
[6:19] reject it I hear you but then on the
[6:21] flip side you've got a lot of Founders
[6:23] who's saying product sells itself and
[6:24] that's where that whole plg came in
[6:26] they're full of [ __ ] [ __ ] they're
[6:28] full of [ __ ] [ __ ] here's the deal
[6:30] okay I don't know how you gotta be so
[6:31] fired up so early you can oh [ __ ]
[6:34] product LED growth okay you can sell
[6:37] things but again let's use another
[6:39] metaphor really good selling is to
[6:42] training is to baseball a really good
[6:44] talented baseball player may be able to
[6:46] hit 250 275 280 right you get a really
[6:49] damn good person who starts taking in
[6:52] the science of the game and puts any
[6:54] extra effort they're gonna break that
[6:55] [ __ ] to 320 325. right now nobody's
[6:58] running a product LED growth strategy
[7:01] with 340 convergence they're full of
[7:03] [ __ ] [ __ ] it just not happening nor
[7:06] are they maximizing the average deal
[7:08] size no it's just more [ __ ] [ __ ]
[7:10] of trying to get around the truth they
[7:13] don't know how to sell the sales
[7:14] methodology so they're just gonna go
[7:16] this route I think that's actually a
[7:17] pretty good place think about we're
[7:19] spending a lot of time in the early
[7:20] stage space at the moment right so
[7:22] people who build a product they've seen
[7:23] a gap they build something to achieve it
[7:25] and that's how they sell right they sell
[7:27] with product they go I add product it
[7:29] fits this you should buy it and there is
[7:31] no science behind it yet they haven't
[7:33] got to that stage where they're actually
[7:34] figuring out that hey I need to do more
[7:37] than just put my product in front of
[7:39] people and go hey here it is and part of
[7:41] the reason we started doing this is the
[7:43] more and more people we talk to in this
[7:44] space tomorrow I'm beginning to realize
[7:46] that there's a lot they just don't know
[7:47] they're not always doing it because
[7:48] that's deep that product growth is the
[7:51] ultimate way to do it they're doing it
[7:52] because it's what they've seen on talk
[7:54] and Facebook and Linkedin and things
[7:55] like that so I can do that my product is
[7:58] really cool I think it's sexy you should
[8:00] think it's sexy Keen it's not going to
[8:01] show it to you and you should buy it and
[8:03] that's effectively their sales
[8:04] methodology that especially when they're
[8:06] young and they're just kicking their
[8:07] ties into gear but I also think and if I
[8:09] look back at the journeys we've been on
[8:11] if you can get that methodology right
[8:12] early if you can bring some of these
[8:14] smarts in that you're talking about then
[8:16] the people you're bringing on I'm
[8:18] telling that early and you don't have to
[8:19] retrain bad habits out of people 10
[8:21] years later five years later yep yep
[8:24] think about where you oh so Gary Rich go
[8:26] Ricky no I was gonna say man I think
[8:27] part of the problem also is a lot of the
[8:29] tech Founders see sales as a necessary
[8:31] evil they don't want them okay they
[8:34] don't wanna because they don't know how
[8:35] to run them sometimes I feel that Tech
[8:38] is a necessary evil okay I work with
[8:40] correct people I've got a tech company
[8:42] if I got another tech person tells me
[8:43] how long it's going to take to build
[8:44] something why they can't get it done and
[8:46] what it's going to Club but it's just do
[8:48] it right like why does it have to be so
[8:51] hard right same thing for sales right so
[8:53] what Sean just said was interesting
[8:55] right Sean said I got this great product
[8:57] it's freaking awesome everybody needs it
[8:59] okay but why see that's that that's what
[9:02] Founders Miss why now from a marketing
[9:05] perspective I'm okay with it everybody
[9:07] needs it that's your job marketing is
[9:08] one too many so Market away to one too
[9:10] many but when you get into sales now
[9:12] when you get into sales that's one to
[9:13] one and my reason for buying something
[9:15] is different than yours Ricky and
[9:17] different than yours and watch this
[9:17] let's say we all oh wait oh should you
[9:20] get one behind me if I had a hat on too
[9:22] right now right we all bought a hat
[9:24] but I can tell you that we all bought
[9:26] that hat for a different [ __ ] reason
[9:28] and this is what sales organizators just
[9:30] don't get through their head the best
[9:32] sales people understand that every
[9:35] single person who bought their product
[9:37] bought it for a different reason and
[9:39] it's your job to figure out what that
[9:40] reason is and it's your job to figure
[9:42] out why if they didn't buy that product
[9:43] that was a worst decision that had they
[9:46] bought had they not bought it that's
[9:48] your job if you can't do that you're not
[9:49] selling yeah I don't agree more we
[9:52] touched on earlier about the founders
[9:53] and they don't know how to hire or run
[9:55] the sales organization so what's your
[9:57] advice to the founders who are kicking
[9:59] off the journey who should they hire
[10:00] first sales reps or sales leader oh
[10:03] sales question that we get sales rep is
[10:05] down here is down here because a sales
[10:08] leader is a waste of time right you need
[10:11] how do I put this okay it's a dumb
[10:13] metaphor it's the only way I put it if
[10:15] you've got just enough money to pay the
[10:16] basketball players to pay the coach what
[10:18] do you do pay the basketball players you
[10:19] got to get a team on the court okay if
[10:21] you can only have four players and a
[10:22] coach you take five players and no coach
[10:24] and if someone bubbles up it does you no
[10:26] good whatsoever to have a coach I don't
[10:28] care how good he is they can craft
[10:29] everything but you can only afford three
[10:31] more players we agree on that yep same
[10:33] concept here right it sounds far-fetched
[10:35] you could always just five in the coach
[10:36] but here you can't you either get a
[10:39] sales leader or you get someone who's
[10:40] gonna make the call right so as a
[10:43] Founder your very first hire should be
[10:45] the scrappiest hungriest most driven
[10:48] most creative I would go so far as a
[10:51] hustler and you find that person who is
[10:54] not afraid to kick down doors to upset
[10:56] people to do different [ __ ] you give
[10:58] them as much rope as possible and you're
[11:00] prepared that they make mistakes but
[11:01] that's what you need you need a husband
[11:03] there's so much advice out there they
[11:06] should hire two yeah I love that yeah I
[11:09] agree yeah yeah 100 and then how do you
[11:11] clone them how do you train them what do
[11:13] you do you find two Hustlers you're
[11:14] saying right away yeah if you can afford
[11:16] it yeah absolutely because look that's a
[11:18] simple math game right Tech Founders
[11:20] should get this it's a simple math you
[11:22] get one I'm gonna butcher this but you
[11:23] get one person you have a 50 50 chance
[11:25] of success I believe if you get two you
[11:28] have a 66 chance of success right is
[11:30] that right I think a four quadrant
[11:32] Matrix right they both fail right but
[11:35] then the rest is one succeeds or the
[11:37] other succeeds or they both succeed
[11:38] that's 75 okay look at that right there
[11:40] 75 chance of success if you hire two at
[11:43] one time UW success rate so if you can
[11:46] afford it absolutely higher to it and
[11:48] then you're gonna love this how do you
[11:49] train them you train them in the
[11:53] business the kpis and the environment of
[11:56] who they're selling to first then you
[12:00] train them on your product so teach them
[12:02] the ICP tell them everything bad that
[12:04] you're gonna sell so that brings up
[12:06] another question when you talk about ICP
[12:08] is it ICP the champion who's actually
[12:11] going to promote my product in the
[12:13] business that I'm selling to was it the
[12:15] person who's gonna sign off the button
[12:17] document it's not it's neither it's the
[12:19] business as a whole within the
[12:22] functional group or the I don't even
[12:24] know the word there's a word for this
[12:25] within the function group with the
[12:27] business area where my product makes a
[12:31] difference basically you're saying
[12:32] they're going to know enough to be able
[12:33] to identify the Gap right if they don't
[12:35] actually understand that business
[12:36] they're selling to they don't understand
[12:37] what they're trying to achieve and where
[12:39] they're trying to go to you can't find
[12:40] the Gap until they can do that part then
[12:43] they can't effectively become the
[12:44] Salesforce unique one thousand percent
[12:46] so to your point it's not the ICP who
[12:48] uses it or buys it I don't give a [ __ ]
[12:49] about that but I care about if you're
[12:51] selling into supply chain and let's say
[12:53] within the supply chain you're selling
[12:55] in the inventory management let's say
[12:56] that okay then you better know and you
[12:58] better teach that person everything they
[12:59] need to know about Inventory management
[13:00] okay how does inventory move around a
[13:02] warehouse what is how is inventory
[13:04] measured from an accounting perspective
[13:05] lipo fifo and all that other [ __ ] right
[13:07] how what is the average inventory terms
[13:10] that people want how do inventory turns
[13:12] change within an organization how to
[13:14] spoilage a breakage affect inventory
[13:16] what an inventory cost how do you
[13:18] calculate and measure the profitability
[13:20] against inventory like all I've run out
[13:22] of my [ __ ] but I get some of it all of
[13:25] that they need to know about inventory
[13:26] because my assumption if you're selling
[13:28] a product or service that affects
[13:30] inventory that's the [ __ ] that you're
[13:31] going to address I'm assuming and if
[13:33] that's the [ __ ] you're going to address
[13:34] you better understand how that [ __ ]
[13:35] works right and the downstream effects
[13:37] how that affects this and that you
[13:39] should help them understand if inventory
[13:40] is affected then how does that affect
[13:42] suppliers right and how to supplier
[13:44] contracts work and then how does uh slas
[13:46] work and see where I'm going with this
[13:48] and keep playing that [ __ ] out you
[13:50] yeah then you teach them how your
[13:53] product or service works now they can go
[13:55] out in the field and start having real
[13:56] conversations containing your reconciles
[13:58] people are dominant super easy to do
[14:00] methodology when you keep talking about
[14:01] how much action works they've got to do
[14:03] to be good at the job it's not as simple
[14:05] as just walking in a room and going
[14:06] here's my product you should buy now but
[14:08] here's the crazy part businesses can
[14:11] make it easy right if I have advocated
[14:13] for urine and I should drink my own
[14:15] Kool-Aid in this I probably need to make
[14:16] a product in this but I've been
[14:18] advocating for years that businesses
[14:20] need to build a internal training
[14:22] department or not internal training
[14:24] module that chains train sales people on
[14:28] the business that they sell in before
[14:30] they teach them the product how much
[14:31] more sense the product would make if you
[14:34] actually train me in the business first
[14:35] yeah it's not hard we did that we set it
[14:38] going away from the product we didn't
[14:40] teach them product at all for the first
[14:41] few weeks it wasn't about there going
[14:43] back to your point it was all about
[14:44] learning the business that you're
[14:46] selling to learning every Persona that
[14:48] sits within their business work out
[14:50] their challenges and then goes Sell Your
[14:52] solution to them don't talk about the
[14:54] product because I hated the fact that
[14:56] most of them go looking for HDMI cable
[14:58] and make sure the webcam is on just to
[14:59] bring their product up that's not how
[15:01] you sell a product it's not it's not
[15:03] doing anything for the buyer so we touch
[15:06] on the fact that you hired too so I've
[15:07] got two hustlers in the business I'm an
[15:09] early Stave founder I've got all of that
[15:11] they're kicking goals the court
[15:12] attainment's great I've now got to hand
[15:14] it off I've got to hide my Frontline
[15:16] sales manager I've been following some
[15:18] of your blanks and posts and your views
[15:20] on sales managers and what they should
[15:22] be doing I've hired a bunch of them and
[15:25] whole heap of them struggle with making
[15:27] the transition from a good rep to a
[15:29] manager how do I as a kick-ass
[15:32] individual contributor go from being
[15:35] that to a manager okay you gotta learn
[15:38] to execute so first you gotta learn to
[15:40] execute what does it take to execute
[15:42] it's SEC okay I know this is entirely in
[15:43] order you gotta understand the sales
[15:45] management or sales leadership role
[15:47] let's go Frontline frontline's very
[15:49] different than the rest front line is
[15:51] very different than second line third
[15:54] line and fourth line I think it's sales
[15:55] probably going to episode a lot of
[15:56] people generally speaking second line
[15:57] third line and fourth line in most
[15:59] organizations they're super important
[16:01] but they're shitty roles they're shitty
[16:03] roles it's just basically it's just
[16:06] mostly reporting you're reporting jockey
[16:09] I hate to say it people like to hear it
[16:11] but it's it gets to be a reporting
[16:13] jockey right so to be a Frontline
[16:15] manager you got to ask yourself and
[16:17] understand what is your philosophy or
[16:21] methodology from managing individual
[16:24] contributors directly what are you what
[16:27] are your your kpis and objectives for
[16:30] managing those people directly so what
[16:32] is it you're trying to get out of them
[16:34] besides just quota okay so if am I a
[16:38] leader do I want to manage people not do
[16:41] I want to sell for people because that's
[16:43] what a lot of these clowns do they're
[16:44] great sales people they become
[16:45] management and sell for the sales people
[16:47] do you want to actually lead people
[16:49] build people assess us people right do
[16:53] you want to be good at process and
[16:55] manage the processes rebuild new
[16:57] processes identify broken processes like
[17:00] you're an Executor now and you gotta win
[17:02] through people so as you as an
[17:04] individual if you're listening ask them
[17:06] do you want to do that number one and if
[17:07] you do good then number two while you're
[17:09] in the individual contributor role and
[17:10] you're watching all the sales managers
[17:12] start building your own approach stop
[17:14] building your own processes and ask
[17:15] yourself what would you bring to this
[17:17] environment if you were in that role so
[17:19] if you ever have the chance you should
[17:21] and you should document that [ __ ] you
[17:22] should say this is how I would approach
[17:24] deal reviews this is how I would do my
[17:26] sales team assessment that's how I would
[17:27] change our current hiring process this
[17:30] how I would change our current sales
[17:31] prop you see what I'm saying bring the
[17:33] job to the table I love that so when you
[17:36] think about it from the other side and
[17:37] people management positions and you're
[17:39] looking to promote that's the sort of
[17:40] stuff you should be looking for an
[17:41] individual contributing come to you and
[17:42] go and look I've been watching this in
[17:45] previous companies in this company these
[17:47] are the things I'd be doing in Deal
[17:48] reads this is how I'd be dealing with
[17:50] quota growth this is how I'd be dealing
[17:52] with trigger situations with commissions
[17:54] and this is my viewpoint and philosophy
[17:56] on that more than I've been here for
[17:58] five years and I'm really good one to
[17:59] not be promoted which I've yeah I always
[18:01] struggled with that I'm a gun individual
[18:03] contributor I've been here a long time I
[18:05] would like to be promoted but does a
[18:07] promotion doesn't necessarily mean it's
[18:08] gonna be better for you for who you are
[18:10] for what you achieve how you achieve
[18:12] things it's built into humans that you
[18:15] feel like you need to keep making steps
[18:16] but some people are just amazing sales
[18:19] people who have built a whole career
[18:21] around just kicking Doors Down kicking
[18:23] goals making huge amounts of money and
[18:25] being super successful and it shouldn't
[18:26] be looked at as something where you need
[18:27] to get a promotion you can be a career
[18:30] sales person and be at the top of your
[18:32] game at the top of your profession
[18:33] because it is a profession itself some
[18:36] it is sometimes people realize that
[18:37] there's a lot of professional sales
[18:39] people out there making half a million a
[18:40] year and they'll tell you they don't
[18:41] want to do anything else right how they
[18:43] took them a while to figure that out but
[18:45] I think that's probably a better second
[18:46] answer is I don't think enough people
[18:49] understand who they are and if people
[18:50] start evaluating as individuals who they
[18:53] are and what they're good at and what
[18:54] they like let me say that again who they
[18:56] are what they're good at and what they
[18:58] like if they spent more time focused on
[19:00] that they would know if a sales manager
[19:03] position is for them so it would never
[19:05] come down I've been at this five years
[19:06] and I've done this I want it or I
[19:08] deserve it it's now this is what I'd
[19:09] like to do because I'm really good at
[19:11] this I'd be a much better manager than I
[19:13] would be a salesperson here's why I'm
[19:15] really good at these things et cetera et
[19:17] cetera and it's where I bring value and
[19:19] if you know that then you'll know if you
[19:21] should be up for the sales manager role
[19:22] and you'll be able to make a great case
[19:23] or you'll start looking at different
[19:25] roles what you're good at what you like
[19:27] to do you see what I'm saying that you
[19:29] would apply somewhere else to give you
[19:31] an example of this my all my kids ski
[19:33] and two of them mogulski in the little I
[19:36] should say little the regional program
[19:38] that that Governor governs where they
[19:41] compete they lost the secretary and they
[19:43] lost it to me and said you should put
[19:44] your hat in the ring to be the president
[19:45] and I was like nope nope I will turn
[19:48] this apple card over this is not what
[19:50] this organization needs right now I am a
[19:52] I am not an operator I'm a changer I fix
[19:54] [ __ ] I fix broken stuff I expand stuff I
[19:57] create stuff that's what I'm good at
[19:59] this program is not ready for that right
[20:01] now and so I was like nope do not put my
[20:03] hand in the ring because it's not ready
[20:04] and I don't think I'll do a good job
[20:06] when the organization says they want to
[20:08] change or we're in trouble call me but
[20:10] until then nope but I know that most
[20:12] people you could have argued I got two
[20:14] kids program I'm passionate about Mogul
[20:16] skiing I got amazing marketing skills
[20:18] sales skills I can help raise money you
[20:20] could have made a case for me like a lot
[20:21] of people did but the truth of the
[20:23] matter was who I am what I do well and
[20:26] what I like to do
[20:27] didn't all Jive right there self of
[20:29] innocent he spoke earlier about as you
[20:32] go up to second or third level you end
[20:34] up being a dashboard jockey I agree with
[20:36] that having been there but when is the
[20:38] right time to bring the Josie in because
[20:41] no matter how much of a good manager you
[20:42] are probably maximum 10 reporters is
[20:44] what you can handle so as a Founder what
[20:47] advice do you give to that individual to
[20:49] go man this is now time for you to go
[20:51] bring a director or a VP or and when is
[20:53] the right time to bring cro and again
[20:55] I'm asking a bunch of questions the
[20:56] question being here is when you bring
[20:58] the next layer of leadership into an
[21:00] organ I'm very agile I don't pay
[21:02] attention to okay here you do this and
[21:04] here you do this and my mind doesn't
[21:06] work that way I'm an ex I'm an exception
[21:08] oriented person like I ever I look at
[21:10] exceptions not Norms right so that's why
[21:12] I didn't do well with corporate America
[21:13] but if you're gonna put me in a corner
[21:15] I'm thinking you're going to want to
[21:17] think about quote unquote VP of sales
[21:20] whatever when you get to six or seven
[21:24] sales reps so that individual Frontline
[21:26] manager is now over well with trying to
[21:29] manage the day-to-day sales of all his
[21:31] people or her people and now you need
[21:34] someone who can oversee them and begin
[21:38] to add another one of him or her right
[21:40] so if you've got six seven or eight
[21:42] individual contributors and your
[21:43] business plan calls for growth uh again
[21:46] it's 200 higher eight nine and ten the
[21:49] next year great higher eight and nine
[21:51] get a sales manage and have two sales
[21:52] man just split up to five or six each
[21:54] you see what I'm saying and now you put
[21:56] your p on top of them now the vp's job
[21:59] in this case is going to be someone like
[22:01] a me who's going to win and build [ __ ]
[22:04] so now this person's job is to and I
[22:07] don't know it could be five six seven
[22:08] eight million I don't know what that
[22:09] number is or depends to sell quarter is
[22:11] blah blah but once you have that number
[22:13] now it's that vp's job to build the
[22:16] systems and to build the processes and
[22:19] to standardize and to build the kpis and
[22:22] create some consistency and
[22:24] predictability to it now it's just not a
[22:27] handful of guys going on and girls try
[22:29] to go out and [ __ ] hustle and hustle
[22:30] and not look now we have consistency we
[22:32] need repeatability and that person
[22:33] should come in and be able to build that
[22:35] [ __ ] you need to build it not an
[22:37] operator you need to build it so
[22:39] someone's going to build all that stuff
[22:40] implement it create it in some cases and
[22:43] then hold the team accountable to it and
[22:45] that's everything hiring processes
[22:46] onboarding processes sales process Deal
[22:50] review process but sales team assessment
[22:53] process like I could go on exactly QBs
[22:55] and whatnot you could go on and on but
[22:57] there's a lot of theories out there that
[23:00] you're gonna bring people in at the
[23:01] right level if you're a VP of sales
[23:03] who's built a business at 20 million but
[23:05] you're no longer going to be good enough
[23:06] to take that business from 20. I've
[23:08] always outperformed My Level so I'm
[23:10] biased I've had so look I'm gonna okay
[23:13] watch this I'm gonna pull an old man
[23:15] wisdom thing okay I'm gonna I'm gonna
[23:18] highlight the stupidity in that thinking
[23:22] did every single person who ran a
[23:26] company or grew a company from 20 20
[23:28] million to 50 million is that where they
[23:30] started in their life or at one time had
[23:33] they never done it that's your [ __ ]
[23:34] answer okay they had your [ __ ] answer
[23:36] take those types of [ __ ] belief
[23:40] systems and flush them yes okay maybe if
[23:44] you've got one guy who's done it before
[23:46] it has a proven track record and then
[23:48] you've got another person a woman who
[23:50] has shown amazing talent and grown it to
[23:52] here and you believe she can do it then
[23:55] give them both a good solid look right
[23:56] and then you decided everything is equal
[23:58] and you want to play it safe go with the
[24:00] dude if everything is equal but you want
[24:02] to give someone a chance go with the
[24:04] chick I don't care at that point I don't
[24:06] care but the point being is stop looking
[24:08] at the person and stop using stupid
[24:11] rubrics I don't know the word for that
[24:13] type of stuff it's dumb it's just dumb
[24:16] do you know how many times what's her
[24:18] name Carly what was her name I'm really
[24:20] show my age Carly fioni or Fiona
[24:22] whatever her name is she ran HP right it
[24:24] was right and she came up from compact
[24:26] right did she come from I can't much
[24:28] keep him coming back she we had a bunch
[24:29] of [ __ ] she [ __ ] that one up okay
[24:31] thank you as many cases as someone who's
[24:33] done something before and they crushed
[24:35] it as I came to someone who's done
[24:36] something before and [ __ ] it up so I
[24:38] just think it's dumb just it's one okay
[24:41] let me be nice it's just one data point
[24:44] that's my final answer it's one data
[24:46] point but I think that's a good way okay
[24:48] because it is something that as we
[24:49] especially when you're growing your
[24:51] software company and you're at that
[24:52] small level that there is that push to
[24:54] go get someone who's done it before and
[24:56] they will automatically give you X Y and
[24:58] Z but it's not automatic it's a data
[25:01] point and it's a good data point if
[25:02] someone has done it multiple times
[25:03] that's a good data point but it is a
[25:05] data points for these guys and girls as
[25:07] they're building their companies up I
[25:09] think it does change the bigger you get
[25:11] there's definitely other reasons when
[25:12] you get really large you go well cool
[25:13] someone who's proven didn't get an
[25:15] automatic scale and gross and so you've
[25:18] run something for a long time at some
[25:19] point there's going to come out with
[25:20] someone
[25:23] else's data point what do you have music
[25:25] would have happened Oracle they took
[25:26] Ellison out because he never built the
[25:28] company that size before what do you
[25:30] think would happen to Facebook if they
[25:31] took him out because they never go stop
[25:32] and think about what you're saying every
[25:34] example where someone's got it imagine
[25:37] where any one of those companies would
[25:38] be if you had pulled those [ __ ]
[25:40] out and put someone else in who's done
[25:43] it before it's one data point it's my
[25:45] answer yeah yeah I like it that's a good
[25:47] way of looking at it let's switch up the
[25:48] subject a little bit sir everything no
[25:50] matter which platform you go on right
[25:51] now the biggest thing that's popping up
[25:53] is AI there's a lot of people saying AI
[25:56] is going to change the game of sales I
[25:58] see it in some ways maybe like some of
[26:00] the outbound stuff for the email that's
[26:01] going to improve everything playing out
[26:04] it's hard to change sales okay it's a
[26:06] fact it already has okay for the good
[26:08] for the bad a little bit of both it's
[26:10] only going to increase and I'm sure
[26:13] maybe not in my lifetime maybe my kids
[26:15] but then again if you follow Moore's Law
[26:18] shit's gonna get going crazy fast right
[26:20] once AI becomes pretty close to Sentinel
[26:23] yeah they'll replace sales people to
[26:26] replace almost everything would do it
[26:27] right if they can think for themselves
[26:30] they'll probably think faster on the
[26:31] feet than I can is trying and they can
[26:33] literally build it to do an actual
[26:34] diagnose the Gap selling they know the
[26:36] current state is ask the right questions
[26:38] right watch this no one ever thought
[26:40] about I'm way down in the future I'm
[26:41] doing Blade Runner [ __ ] but know what no
[26:43] one else is asking if you don't think
[26:44] someone's working on an AI buying
[26:46] process you're smoking crack
[26:48] someone's going to create an AI buying
[26:50] process where if you want to buy
[26:52] something for the company you feel the
[26:53] company needs something somebody's going
[26:55] to make you put that [ __ ] into an AI and
[26:57] the AI is going to calculate whether or
[26:59] not we can continue to do what they're
[27:00] we're doing now or we need to change and
[27:03] what we need to change too and and tell
[27:05] you what your recommendations are
[27:06] because it's going to go out into the
[27:07] market right it's going to go all right
[27:08] I'm making this up right now I let's say
[27:11] I want to buy an Outreach of sales okay
[27:12] right now our sales team outbound sucks
[27:15] and we're only able to send out 10
[27:16] emails a day and we're only making 15
[27:18] calls or eight percent you know put 50
[27:21] behind revenue and you pop that [ __ ]
[27:23] into an AI and then yeah this isn't
[27:25] acceptable however there are three
[27:27] things out here that does this and if
[27:28] you do this and you succeed here it
[27:30] should create this kind of return so you
[27:32] should negotiate this price if you don't
[27:34] think that's coming you're smoking crack
[27:36] so if that's coming then on the other
[27:38] side if a machine can do that on this
[27:39] side the machine on the other side can
[27:41] answer the question so some way down the
[27:43] road my kid's lifetime my grandkids
[27:45] lifetime buying and selling are both
[27:47] going to be done by Ai and discussion
[27:49] say what yeah no I do this I just
[27:52] stopped working on this project because
[27:54] I never even thought about you need to
[27:55] create a gap box so the answer is long
[27:57] term it's going to take all the jobs
[27:59] right now
[28:00] it is a it's a complex efficiency play
[28:05] that's all it is now I think it does a
[28:06] good job selling if I see another stupid
[28:08] AI written email I'm gonna throw up okay
[28:12] yeah so I'm not worried about AI right
[28:15] now what I do is restart my gun today
[28:18] and I would really like to see and we
[28:20] ought to be getting to work on this I
[28:22] would also like to see AI on the other
[28:24] side of the sale not on the on the front
[28:26] end but on the in the middle part of the
[28:27] sales cycle evaluating deals and telling
[28:30] sales teams why that Deal's in trouble
[28:32] or why that deal doesn't have what it
[28:35] needs to be successful that's where I
[28:37] think the real value can come in and
[28:39] we're doing some of that right now with
[28:40] node analytics and we're heading down
[28:43] that road right now I think there's also
[28:44] a cool play in this uh we talked at the
[28:46] start about educating sales people and
[28:48] industries that you're going to sell to
[28:50] and I think there's a play there where
[28:51] we can actually have instead of it being
[28:53] done by you're jumping on doing you can
[28:55] have ai help peace out the pieces of
[28:58] because industry is a complex he's going
[29:00] to the pieces that these people actually
[29:02] need to know at each step of their
[29:04] Journey as they're going along because
[29:05] it's you overload people very quickly if
[29:07] you try to teach them the entirety of an
[29:09] industry or exactly how this person
[29:11] Works in this Arena we're now to pass
[29:14] that out into hey this is the bits you
[29:15] need to know at this stage of your sales
[29:17] Journey that this part then this part I
[29:19] think there's a lot of work to be done
[29:20] in that would actually help accelerate
[29:21] someone's ability to understand whatever
[29:24] the industry is and it could be a big
[29:26] tool because it's just going to be
[29:27] picking up hard Industries
[29:29] that's what I'm looking if someone finds
[29:31] it but until the day that happens I
[29:33] guess coming back to the prison a lot of
[29:35] the South ribs are mishired that's what
[29:37] Founders like to believe you worked with
[29:39] thousands of organizations Keenan
[29:41] thousands of South leaders and thousands
[29:43] of Founders and whatnot what's the
[29:46] number one quality that you look for an
[29:48] individual and you go that person can
[29:50] work out it may just be a data point but
[29:52] do they have one thing in common there
[29:54] you go he's got the making of being a
[29:56] great or she's got the making of being a
[29:58] great salesperson is there such a thing
[30:00] wow I'm trying to describe it in my head
[30:03] I used to say smart that's not enough I
[30:06] used to say they can think that's
[30:09] getting closer I would say like it can't
[30:12] be just one so I have to put it in a
[30:14] little box you know what I'm saying
[30:15] think about an engagement ring it's not
[30:16] just it's not just silver and it's not
[30:19] just a diamond but it's the setting and
[30:20] but it's certain things need to come
[30:22] together yeah that's what I what I would
[30:23] say is a super smart person that has
[30:27] amazing critical thinking skills and can
[30:29] solve problems you give me that I can
[30:31] make a salesperson so unicorn you don't
[30:34] like that all right no I'm just saying
[30:35] that tough to find oh [ __ ] yeah they are
[30:37] because most people are stupid that's
[30:38] not gonna make me very popular but we
[30:40] keep falling back to even some of our
[30:41] own experiences we built an organization
[30:43] that was 700 plus FTE right so you hired
[30:46] a lot and you mishide a lot you had the
[30:49] right intention every single [ __ ]
[30:51] time to get the best person on your team
[30:53] covert hit and made it that much harder
[30:56] everyone knows how to sell themselves
[30:58] they're great when it comes to insurance
[31:00] verses and then they start two weeks
[31:03] after what do you do like this whole
[31:04] concept of highest low five fast it
[31:07] doesn't work hence why I was trying to
[31:08] look for an answer I I'm no better than
[31:10] anybody else I'm 50 50. and I don't and
[31:12] it's because I don't think I'm gonna
[31:13] change my hiring process I'm going to
[31:15] die on this sword now my Approach
[31:18] doesn't work very well in Corporate
[31:19] America because of all the HR rules but
[31:21] when I start hiring people I ask
[31:23] questions in a way that I get to who
[31:25] they are as a person like I I don't flat
[31:28] out ask anybody a question directly
[31:29] because I know I can't get away with
[31:30] that but I ask questions like okay I try
[31:34] to trap them okay you get to just say
[31:37] something like this you get to decide
[31:38] but what is the one most difficult
[31:41] challenge you've ever had in your life
[31:43] that you solved how did you do it why
[31:46] was it a problem Etc and it could be
[31:48] business or personal okay now if they go
[31:51] to business that's already in my opinion
[31:53] A A Nick a negative Nick because with
[31:56] very few exceptions is a business
[31:58] problem the hardest problem you've ever
[32:00] had
[32:04] into one of two things you let a [ __ ]
[32:07] hunky-dory lifestyle and you've never
[32:09] been faced with any any adversity and
[32:11] therefore you're useless to me or you're
[32:13] a liar that's the first thing I learned
[32:15] right so I'm paying attention to that
[32:17] and then they'll answer the question and
[32:18] if it's really lame one I'll say so I
[32:21] want to make sure I got this right now I
[32:22] asked you the most difficult thing in
[32:24] your entire life
[32:25] and yours was how a boss had yelled at
[32:29] you because you misquota and you felt
[32:31] that it was inappropriate so you went to
[32:33] HR of all the things in your life that
[32:35] was the hardest one yes okay then thank
[32:38] you and then I'll go into the next
[32:39] question so I am constantly pushing
[32:41] buttons the next question I might ask is
[32:43] what's the one thing that you've built
[32:45] from scratch
[32:47] professional or personal what was the
[32:49] one I'm sorry what was the one problem
[32:51] you saw in your life that you felt
[32:53] needed to be fixed so you stepped up and
[32:56] didn't wait for anybody to fix it what
[32:58] was it why was it a problem and how did
[33:00] you fix it so I asked questions like
[33:01] that I want people done [ __ ] I don't
[33:03] care if it's professional personal I
[33:04] need people who've done [ __ ] I need
[33:06] people have come from places where
[33:07] they've had to make something happen and
[33:09] even if you come from uh what's the word
[33:11] I'm looking for this soft what am I
[33:13] trying to say here I'm really what yeah
[33:15] privilege thank you came from this
[33:16] privileged bougie world you still could
[33:18] have recognized problems in the world
[33:19] and used your privilege and boujee one
[33:22] of my best friends his son started this
[33:24] whole non-profit program to help kids I
[33:26] forget what it was but he was like I see
[33:28] a problem here so he wrote a bunch of
[33:29] his friends together and they built
[33:30] these bougie as they can be but he saw a
[33:32] problem and stepped in to fix it so if
[33:34] you haven't tried to fix something in
[33:36] your entire life I got no time fee
[33:38] because my point any questions the point
[33:40] of these questions that I'm sure you can
[33:41] see in YouTube Sean it shows me what
[33:43] type of person it is
[33:48] it shows me how this person got
[33:50] something done it shows me this person
[33:51] takes action it shows this person isn't
[33:54] afraid to go try to make some things
[33:55] happen right think about what you
[33:57] learned from that right that's a good
[33:59] point because lucky said Ricky everyone
[34:00] can sell themselves and I sell
[34:02] themselves in the exact same way every
[34:03] time it's I can do this job I've done
[34:05] this job before this is how good I was
[34:07] at this job and what you're looking at
[34:09] is I get it everyone who's applies this
[34:11] job can do this job who are you how do
[34:14] you think about things when they come
[34:15] across your desk what are you passionate
[34:18] about because I still believe yeah if
[34:19] you draw a passion into people right so
[34:21] if you can get everyone Walking In step
[34:23] and passionate about where they're
[34:25] working and they're excited about it
[34:27] most of them are going to be successful
[34:28] right and they're going to go we're
[34:30] going to outperform they're going to put
[34:31] time and effort and love into what
[34:32] you're doing and so fortunately yeah
[34:34] what people are passionate about when
[34:35] you're interviewing is to see cracks if
[34:37] you know that this person's just
[34:39] prepared for this because it's a job
[34:41] interview and you say I'm awesome in
[34:42] this job and I've done this job and I
[34:44] can't answer any other question you ask
[34:45] me about anything because all I've
[34:46] actually thought about is I want the
[34:47] jokes I want to make the money that
[34:49] you've advertised in you you're only
[34:50] going to get what you get out of that
[34:51] person and then we as Leaders looking
[34:53] and going Oh I thought this guy was
[34:54] going to be a gun your girl they're
[34:56] going to get to X and they probably
[34:57] could get to X but they're not in
[34:59] sliding so I'm a Founder I've taken all
[35:01] your advice I've got a kick-ass team
[35:02] follow Hustlers the right people with
[35:05] the right quality they're crushing it
[35:07] one thing they all want is a lot more
[35:08] money right everyone wants more money no
[35:10] matter what more often than not
[35:12] specially people in sales are always
[35:14] looking for the next step when it comes
[35:16] to monetary rewards I'm gonna say is
[35:18] everybody wants more money and if they
[35:20] don't get what as much money as they
[35:21] want they try to go somewhere else to
[35:23] get that money how do you build a comp
[35:24] plan to keep them okay you can't build a
[35:27] comp plan that keeps people so I learned
[35:30] something a long time ago and the way
[35:33] you keep people is you have to give them
[35:36] a challenging place to work okay like we
[35:40] call it rope here a rewarding place to
[35:42] work with lots of opportunities so Ro
[35:44] like lots of opportunity reward and
[35:47] responsibility opportunity oh I should
[35:50] shoot myself a p and then energetic and
[35:52] fun right so I learned this from a place
[35:56] I worked when my very first job there's
[35:58] something called korf challenge
[35:59] opportunity reward and fun right and so
[36:03] if you can create a vine where people
[36:05] get rewarded enough so they're not in
[36:07] the bottom of the 50. they get rewarded
[36:09] enough for what they do they make good
[36:10] money and reward is their salary plus
[36:12] everything else they're rewarded in
[36:14] totality and they believe they can grow
[36:17] this opportunity to continue to move up
[36:19] which comes with more money but more
[36:21] responsibility more challenging it's not
[36:23] boring they're engaged they their skill
[36:25] sets are being maxed they're being
[36:26] developed right then the rewarding
[36:29] challenge yeah I did the reward piece
[36:31] right and then challenge I did that to
[36:33] challenge their board there's plenty of
[36:34] opportunity and then fun it's a fun
[36:35] place to work you build stuff into this
[36:38] that's fun so we have this big Christmas
[36:39] party we do every year we bring the
[36:42] entire company now we rent this giant
[36:44] Airbnb and in Keystone Colorado and we
[36:47] pay for everybody to go skiing and they
[36:49] bring their wives and all that stuff we
[36:51] used to when I lived in Denver we used
[36:53] to invite clients and all everybody's
[36:55] families we take them to a baseball game
[36:57] we have a section A Thing Called fun
[36:59] where people talk everybody's birthday
[37:01] someone we we all get together and
[37:03] figure out the coolest birthday present
[37:04] to get somebody that's interested in
[37:06] what they like and what's fun and what's
[37:08] interesting to them so it's a personal
[37:10] thing it's not just a stupid card I
[37:12] think we spend almost five the four
[37:13] figures we're smoking but four or five
[37:15] figures a year and just birthday [ __ ]
[37:16] we're public company I'm sure the time
[37:18] they make us cut it because we come to
[37:19] the millions but no that's an investment
[37:21] so we try to make it a fun place to work
[37:23] we try to make this is why people get in
[37:25] their own goddamn way oh I've seen
[37:27] you've got a two million dollar birthday
[37:28] budget yet cut that [ __ ] how much do you
[37:31] think that same attention right like
[37:33] we're a billion dollar company how much
[37:34] do you think that saves Us in retention
[37:36] how much do you think that saves left
[37:37] Ohio [ __ ] think long term people so
[37:40] yeah so all kinds of stuff to make it
[37:42] fun challenging rewarding and people
[37:44] want to stay here it's hard though it's
[37:46] hard some people just get greedy some
[37:48] and that's another thing here's the last
[37:49] piece you can build a culture here
[37:51] here's something I didn't say enough
[37:52] within all of that build the culture of
[37:56] who you are and who your company is yeah
[37:58] and only hire people who fit that
[38:01] they're out people it doesn't matter how
[38:03] much fun they have it doesn't matter if
[38:05] they have opportunity they just want the
[38:07] cash don't hire them they're not a fit
[38:10] so yeah build a culture and only hire
[38:13] people that fit in the culture we're
[38:15] learning that the hard way we will never
[38:16] hire anybody again who was not over the
[38:19] top coachable it is not afraid to take
[38:22] direct harsh criticism because that's
[38:23] how I operate and that's how my entire
[38:25] front light operate so we got a couple
[38:27] people couldn't handle that and they
[38:28] crumbled so now part of a hiring process
[38:31] is to put them through me and I go at
[38:32] them not disrespectfully but see how
[38:34] they can handle it because if you I was
[38:36] raised as an athlete I don't know you
[38:38] guys look like you're athletes in
[38:39] America and athletes particularly
[38:41] football you don't give up that's the
[38:43] wrong thing ghost sit on the bench get
[38:46] your [ __ ] together but then they're
[38:47] coaching you here's the video this is
[38:49] what you did numbnuts why didn't you pay
[38:50] attention it sit here try this like they
[38:53] will Coach you but they are not nice
[38:54] they will that's how I was raised that's
[38:57] my leadership style I love you to death
[38:58] but I'm not here to make you feel good
[39:00] I'm here to make you better which means
[39:02] we're going to focus more on what you do
[39:03] shitty as opposed to what you do well so
[39:06] that's not everybody can look yeah Ricky
[39:07] I love that man personally for me I work
[39:10] for people I could not care less about
[39:12] anything else I think you mentioned the
[39:14] word culture culture of to me is
[39:16] actually part of a bigger thing it's a
[39:17] system I'm just pumped that you included
[39:19] me and you guys look like athletes being
[39:21] so I'm happy oh good I'm sorry for your
[39:23] Australian folks Bill Belichick the head
[39:25] coach of the New England Patriots is
[39:27] that for No Nonsense he is known for his
[39:29] directness he's known for his
[39:31] development of players and getting rid
[39:33] of players that don't fit the system or
[39:36] don't fit his culture yes he knows
[39:37] exactly what he's doing and he's built
[39:39] one of the best programs in American
[39:41] football in the last 25 years so I
[39:44] admire that man I love people I did this
[39:47] with my dogs you heard me talk to my
[39:48] daughter when we got on my daughter
[39:50] knows I love her to death we are so
[39:51] tight she calls me 10 times a day all
[39:53] three of my daughters but I also don't
[39:55] [ __ ] around there is no if they [ __ ] up
[39:58] they know it if they medium they don't
[40:00] meet him if they did something great
[40:01] they get praised they did some amazing
[40:02] they get over the top praise everything
[40:04] is directly
[40:07] appropriate or connected to their
[40:09] actions there is no under there's no
[40:12] under appreciating them when they did
[40:13] something really well like some dads
[40:14] like kid could get into Harvard good job
[40:16] and walk away no you're gonna get all
[40:18] the praise in the world and then there
[40:19] are other parents of the kicker please
[40:20] oh that's okay no [ __ ] you what the hell
[40:23] did you just do there is no confusion
[40:26] about my reaction to their actions and
[40:29] I've been teaching them since they were
[40:31] little girls and I do the same thing in
[40:32] the business world I am a straight
[40:35] shooter and I do that because I believe
[40:37] honesty and realism is the only true
[40:42] gift I am doing you no favors by letting
[40:46] you off the hook I am doing you no
[40:48] favors whatsoever unfortunately too much
[40:51] of our society does not handle that well
[40:53] and so people Buckle right so if you
[40:57] can't hear it from someone else and you
[40:58] better listen to yourself and get real
[41:00] because you aren't going to make it if
[41:02] you can't take true criticism every
[41:05] single company's culture and you gotta
[41:07] look at it I guarantee in this somewhere
[41:08] as honest to your choice it's even there
[41:10] everyone has it they throw it around we
[41:11] are honest we're truthful and it's
[41:13] something I try to drive and live for
[41:14] and it got difficult it is something
[41:16] that everyone aspires to but then we do
[41:18] have that other reaction where you're
[41:20] really careful about being blunt with
[41:22] people being also the amount of
[41:23] companies we've sat with over the last
[41:25] four months and I've met with and talked
[41:26] to me like um oh generally I'm blunt I'm
[41:28] pretty blonde about stuff I'm just going
[41:30] to tell you what I think about business
[41:31] where I think the problem is and they're
[41:32] like I'll wear blunt too this whole
[41:33] company is built on Blackness and then
[41:34] you're blunt and they're like that's a
[41:36] bit harsh isn't it my feelings like we
[41:38] just had a whole discussion yeah we're
[41:39] both blunt and you just want me to tell
[41:41] you what I think these are what I think
[41:42] the problems are and then you're like
[41:43] that's I don't that's unfair we're just
[41:45] starting everyone gets very defensive
[41:47] very quickly so if I check your
[41:49] behaviors and you get offended I stop
[41:51] and say wait I would say you're a bad
[41:53] project man I didn't say you're a bad
[41:55] CEO I just said what you just did here
[41:57] was a [ __ ] show yeah those about haters
[41:59] why you're attaching your behaviors to
[42:01] your identity is your problem that's
[42:04] your choice I'm not going to take
[42:06] ownership for that so if you same in the
[42:08] same just because I said you did a great
[42:10] job I mean I get it's hard not to but
[42:11] that doesn't mean you're great if you
[42:13] get enough of those then maybe you can
[42:15] think you're great or whatever or you
[42:16] did great there but do not confuse
[42:18] person with the behavior focus on the
[42:21] behave and if anybody attacks person in
[42:23] my company I tell them you don't last in
[42:24] my company if you attack the person you
[42:26] do not last but attack the behavior all
[42:28] day long love it Mountain your favorite
[42:30] Mountain your favorite rocket
[42:33] yeah yeah that's a great question it's
[42:36] not lightning okay it's not the best
[42:38] Mountain where I want to ski the last
[42:39] time but all everything all included
[42:40] Aspen's pretty dope yeah I'd like to go
[42:42] to Jackson Hole I've never been there so
[42:44] I'd like to do that I like doing Big Sky
[42:46] I've been to Japan back there yeah so
[42:49] I'll ski all over the place awesome for
[42:51] every music genre this should be easy
[42:52] this is good timing I would have told
[42:54] you rap slash hip hop don't like much of
[42:57] the new rap it's really oh
[43:03] I would listen to Amigos God Savage
[43:05] Playboy
[43:09] in the
[43:11] in the rhyme isn't a medial it is
[43:13] remedial and then the beats and the
[43:16] wrists behind it compare that back to my
[43:18] boys [ __ ] I was thinking oh my God I'm
[43:20] spacing go back to anybody go back to
[43:22] biggie go back to my boy got shot I
[43:24] can't do back and who are the boys would
[43:25] go really fast and I'm staring at them
[43:27] right now anyways go back to any of that
[43:30] early 2000s Legends late 90s and listen
[43:34] to the beat of the Dre Snoop and listen
[43:38] to the beat of the Rhine Eminem how they
[43:41] place it the riffs behind it and then
[43:43] listen to what they got now it's
[43:44] horrible are we getting into really deep
[43:46] conversation so on to the next one then
[43:48] favorite movie or full-time Keenan I
[43:50] like a good plot that keeps music so I'm
[43:52] gonna have to save this tie between Star
[43:54] Wars pole genre or Lord of the Rings one
[43:58] of the Rings the very first one was
[44:01] [ __ ] fire one of my first favorite
[44:03] movies of all time was because again I
[44:05] guess I'm old it was I just said Danish
[44:06] Liaisons oh that was such a good movie
[44:09] oh the intricacy and how he played all
[44:12] those people I don't have just I love
[44:13] Citizen Kane that was amazing 12 Angry
[44:16] Men If you ever watched that 12 Angry
[44:18] Men is a phenomenal one oh that's ahead
[44:21] of its time you ever 12 Angry Men with
[44:22] Peter Fonda oh yeah it's happened in the
[44:24] 50s and it's a Hispanic kid who gets
[44:26] who's on trial for murder and all of
[44:29] these I think it's in the South but all
[44:30] of these white men are just going to
[44:32] convict them Peter fond is the one guy
[44:34] in the room is the weight guys you get
[44:37] it he's a [ __ ] Mexican he did it he's
[44:38] this and little by little through the
[44:41] whole movie he turns all of them because
[44:43] the kid didn't do it it's phenomenal
[44:46] yeah awesome it replaced to visit it
[44:48] doesn't have to be skiing this time we
[44:50] try to go a different place every year
[44:51] no I heard you said New Zealand before
[44:53] we hit the record button so I'm counting
[44:55] from New Zealand the most important one
[44:56] this is that this is pretty much what
[44:58] the whole podcast is about yes Jeff
[45:01] smooth all right
[45:06] that was good
[45:08] I think this one
[45:12] voice over the top that says crunchy and
[45:15] then goes back

===FILE=== uYA__2WLB3w - Gap Selling Why Price Depends on the Problem You Solve with Keenan.txt
https://youtu.be/uYA__2WLB3w
Gap Selling: Why Price Depends on the Problem You Solve with Keenan
[0:00] We all say price is delivered by value,
[0:01] but value is delivered by the size of
[0:03] the problem you're dealing with and the
[0:04] cost of not solving it.
[0:07] Coffee is for closers only. So, we've
[0:09] established my proposal is sound in
[0:10] principle. Now, we're just haggling over
[0:11] price. Let's see how much we're going
[0:14] for an EV. Man, it's the same as Dunkin'
[0:16] Donuts, plus 15 times the price.
[0:21] Welcome to Impact Pricing, the podcast
[0:24] where we discuss pricing, value, and the
[0:26] confusing relationship between them. I'm
[0:29] Mark Stiving and help companies see
[0:31] value through their buyers' eyes. Our
[0:33] guest today is Keenan. Here are three
[0:37] things you want to know about Keenan
[0:38] before we start. He is the founder and
[0:40] CEO of A Salesguy, focusing on modern
[0:42] sales strategy and gap selling.
[0:45] He's passionate about helping sales
[0:47] teams shift from product pitching to
[0:48] problem-centric selling,
[0:51] and he's the author of Gap Selling, a
[0:54] widely recognized framework that
[0:55] challenges traditional sales thinking.
[0:58] Welcome, Keenan.
[0:59] Thanks, Mark. Appreciate it. And we just
[1:01] dropped today. You're the lucky guy. Gap
[1:03] Prospecting just came out today.
[1:06] Nice. Nice. I could tell you what, I
[1:08] could I understand Gap Selling just from
[1:10] the the title. I'm not sure I'm I'm
[1:12] going to get Gap Prospecting, but let's
[1:14] give you a chance to tell us after
[1:16] you've told us what does Gap Selling
[1:17] mean.
[1:19] So, Gap Selling is a selling methodology
[1:20] that helps sales people uh improve their
[1:23] win rate, shorten sales cycle goals,
[1:25] uh improve their average contract value,
[1:28] and fill, you know, and and and close
[1:30] more deals faster. So, um
[1:32] that's really what it's about. And the
[1:33] general premise is it's built on the
[1:35] psychology of change. So, people don't
[1:38] change unless their current state is
[1:40] untenable.
[1:41] Now, of course, this is it's relative,
[1:43] got to love Einstein. It's relative to
[1:45] the cost of change and the cost of
[1:47] inaction, but it all comes down to a
[1:48] psychological element. So, what Gap
[1:50] Selling does is it helps sales people
[1:53] help buyers reflect
[1:55] on their current environment in a way
[1:57] that gets them to stop thinking about I
[1:59] want to buy a product and I need a new
[2:01] phone or I I need lip balm or I need a
[2:04] new car. Like stop. Let's talk about
[2:07] this. Why? What is wrong now that's
[2:10] telling you you need this? And if a
[2:12] sales person is really good at that, by
[2:14] default they become a trusted advisor
[2:16] and then when they make recommendations
[2:18] or they position their product, it is a
[2:20] much more custom fit and one the buyer
[2:22] feels more confident buying because they
[2:24] understand that they don't buy, they
[2:26] can't live with the cost of inaction.
[2:29] Okay, I hate to say this, but I'm 100%
[2:30] behind what you just said.
[2:33] So um so but before we uh dive a little
[2:36] bit deeper because I love talking about
[2:37] problems and the fodder of problems,
[2:39] um tell me what is um gap prospecting
[2:42] then?
[2:43] So gap prospecting just takes the
[2:45] problem-centric approach and moves it
[2:47] one step forward in how you build your
[2:49] pipeline. So gap selling um has a
[2:52] prospecting section in it, but it's a
[2:53] piece of the whole thing. So we just
[2:54] expanded on that. In gap prospecting, it
[2:57] operates pretty much from the start of
[2:58] when a customer says I'll I'll I'll have
[3:00] a call with you. Okay? So you do the
[3:02] proper discovery. They they have agreed
[3:05] to meet with you and have a
[3:06] conversation. And gap selling teaches
[3:08] you how to
[3:09] engage in that conversation in a way to
[3:11] get the key elements of gap selling.
[3:13] Current state, future state, the gap,
[3:14] define it, blah blah blah, and we do
[3:16] with it.
[3:17] Gap prospecting takes the concept of
[3:19] problem-centric selling and moves it to
[3:21] the front end. So instead of discovery,
[3:23] now it's a hypothesis. How do I leverage
[3:26] problem hypothesis
[3:28] to get you to open an email, to take my
[3:30] cold call, to give me 30 seconds on a
[3:32] cold call, to engage with me on
[3:34] LinkedIn? How do I take that hypothesis
[3:36] in a problem-centric manner so that
[3:38] you're like, "Okay, I I
[3:40] and filter through the noise, get
[3:42] through the noise and a buyer says, "You
[3:43] know what? I I get this stuff all the
[3:44] time, but this one this one's different.
[3:46] I need I need to react to this. I need
[3:48] to look at it. I need to respond."
[3:50] Nice. Nice.
[3:52] Um so one of the things I By the way one
[3:53] of my books I wrote was called selling
[3:54] value and we talk a lot about problems
[3:57] and results which is really similar to
[3:59] to what you talk about in that respect.
[4:01] And the only thing I said about
[4:03] prospecting
[4:04] is prospect with the people that you
[4:06] think have the problem. Yes. All right.
[4:09] Yeah. Yes. But in today's world it's so
[4:12] busy and no one opens anything that is
[4:15] who your prospect to now is just a piece
[4:16] of it. You actually you have to have a
[4:18] message that can break through. Right?
[4:21] It It's Look, we start the book
[4:22] literally the book starts the first word
[4:24] is boom. That was the sound of the
[4:26] yellow pages my boss dropped on my desk
[4:29] in my very first sales job. Well, back
[4:31] in those days I could make There was no
[4:33] such thing and people listening who are
[4:35] cold calls you will get this. When I
[4:37] started cold calling in the early '90s
[4:39] there was no such thing as a connect
[4:42] rate
[4:43] because everybody picked up the phone.
[4:46] Right? Yeah, I mean if they weren't home
[4:48] or they weren't at their desk, whatever,
[4:49] but 99% Okay, you can expect someone to
[4:52] pick up the phone 50% of the time.
[4:54] So you didn't have to worry about
[4:56] people picking up. Now
[4:58] people never pick up the phone.
[5:00] Right? So you have to do something that
[5:03] when they do you can't that you can't
[5:05] afford to lose that. So it's all about
[5:07] message, it's all about how you what we
[5:09] call creating intrigue and then driving
[5:11] interest. It's all about how you do that
[5:13] or you're dead in the water. So it's not
[5:14] just who you go after anymore, it's how
[5:16] you go after.
[5:17] Nice. Absolutely brilliant and and I'd
[5:19] love to chat with you about that
[5:20] sometime so I can learn more or maybe
[5:22] I'll just read the book, who knows.
[5:26] But but I want to dive deep into
[5:28] problems. I got to say it's probably my
[5:31] favorite topic and and it wouldn't
[5:33] surprise me if you and I came about this
[5:35] from two different directions and we
[5:36] ended up in the same place.
[5:38] So I came to problems when I was
[5:41] thinking about product management and
[5:42] how do we decide what the next product
[5:44] is we're we're to build or what features
[5:46] we're going to build and and to me it's
[5:48] all about, well, what problems are we
[5:49] going to go solve for the customer? Yes.
[5:51] And and so then I finally got that into,
[5:54] oh, well, that matters in sales, and
[5:56] that matters in pricing, and you know,
[5:58] that matters everywhere.
[6:00] Um how did you come to this realization
[6:02] that problems are are just so important?
[6:06] I don't know.
[6:07] I just know.
[6:09] I just knew because
[6:10] you're buying you're not Again, it came
[6:13] from my observation. I can't even say
[6:15] recognition. It was just my observation
[6:17] that
[6:18] you're buying something because you have
[6:20] a problem.
[6:22] Every single time.
[6:25] Every time.
[6:26] Now, the problem could be subconscious.
[6:29] The problem could be
[6:31] uh frequent enough that you're familiar
[6:33] with it, and the solution is is
[6:35] instantaneous, so you don't think about
[6:37] it.
[6:38] But the it doesn't change the fact that
[6:41] it's it's everything we do is
[6:43] problem-based. I am driving down the
[6:45] street, and I get hungry.
[6:48] Do I stop at McDonald's, or I keep
[6:50] going? Well, the problem is I'm
[6:52] starving. Then the impact is can um uh
[6:56] is my blood sugar low? Am I losing
[6:58] concentration? Uh is the pain too much?
[7:01] Like any one of those could be that. And
[7:03] I ask myself, should I stop? Well,
[7:06] subconsciously or consciously, I say, I
[7:08] don't know. Do I have to be somewhere on
[7:09] time? Do I have the time to stop? Uh do
[7:12] I want to spend the money? Can I wait
[7:14] till I get home? All of those are
[7:15] potential solutions,
[7:18] but it still stemmed in the fact that I
[7:20] have this problem right now. How do I
[7:21] want to solve it? And the way I solve it
[7:23] with the human mind goes back and forth
[7:24] between what is the solution and how bad
[7:27] is it? And what happens if I don't solve
[7:28] it? What's the solution? How bad is what
[7:29] happens if you go like this until your
[7:30] mind says, "Fuck it." And you make a
[7:31] decision.
[7:33] In sales, if you can help the buyer see
[7:35] that in a more broad sense, you're a
[7:36] better salesperson.
[7:37] Okay, so I'm almost with you on that.
[7:39] The I slightly disagree in something,
[7:41] and that is it seems to me that buyers
[7:44] almost never articulate their own
[7:46] problems.
[7:47] So, if we use the, you know, I'm hungry,
[7:48] I'm driving down the street. It's like,
[7:50] "Oh, there's a McDonald's. I think I'll
[7:51] go to McDonald's." And I never really
[7:53] step back to say, "Why am I hungry? And
[7:55] when's the next meal?" And right it's
[7:57] just like, "I think I'm going to go to
[7:58] McDonald's. That's a great solution."
[8:00] Or
[8:01] or or I could just say, "Hey, I think I
[8:02] need a new car."
[8:04] And I've never really articulated, "Oh,
[8:06] well, you know, I'm averaging $3,000 a
[8:09] month in repair bills and I don't have
[8:10] access to my car and, you know, my kids
[8:12] aren't safe and whatever those things
[8:14] are." I just
[8:16] assume them and go out shopping for the
[8:19] solution that I think I need.
[8:22] What's the question?
[8:26] Do Do people really articulate their own
[8:30] problems? 100%.
[8:32] 100%. Now,
[8:34] they don't go as deep
[8:37] because I can I argue
[8:40] that the human brain cannot go get a
[8:44] solution without a problem.
[8:46] Just can't. It It It It It's a physical
[8:49] impossibility. Now, it doesn't always
[8:52] have to be conscious,
[8:54] right? But there is some emotional
[8:56] firing inside the body that says, "I
[8:59] don't like where I am. Here's my
[9:01] solution."
[9:03] So, I think it always exists. I don't
[9:05] think it's always as pressing and as
[9:09] intensely conscious as you said. But
[9:11] what you just described is what I was I
[9:14] like to call the window into the sale.
[9:16] So, when someone says, "I need a new
[9:18] car." I promise you they they they think
[9:20] they know why they need a new car.
[9:22] Either they just don't like the one they
[9:24] have because their friends make fun of
[9:26] it. Maybe they've just had it 6 years
[9:27] and it feels old, right? So, that's all
[9:30] they need. Whether it's right or wrong,
[9:32] that feels old says, "I don't like where
[9:34] I am, current state. I want to move into
[9:36] a future state. What great sales people
[9:38] do, or a great life coach, or a great
[9:41] partner, or a great friend, is they stop
[9:43] pulling on that thread. Like, why do you
[9:45] want a new car?
[9:46] I don't mind it's old. Okay, but does it
[9:48] still work? Yes. Because it's old, how
[9:50] does it affect you? I don't know, I just
[9:51] don't like how it feels. Well, walk me
[9:52] through that feeling. And then, like,
[9:54] are you going on dates? Do Do you know,
[9:56] do you guys or girls not want to get in
[9:57] your car? No. You married? Yes. Did your
[9:58] wife care? No. You know, um have you
[10:00] thought about how much it would cost in
[10:01] a payment? Yeah, and and that's $600 a
[10:04] month, right? Yeah, I know. Well, if you
[10:05] don't like if you if if everything else
[10:07] is fine with your car and it works, da
[10:09] da da, what would you do with that $600
[10:10] you just saved it? Oh, good point. And
[10:12] if you save $600 to 12 months, you know
[10:14] that's $7,200. Oh, good point.
[10:16] You going on vacation? You know what?
[10:18] You know, you're right. I'm not going to
[10:19] buy that car.
[10:20] So, it's not that they don't know, it's
[10:22] that they don't flush the entire thing
[10:25] out. And that's where you're right.
[10:29] Okay, let's talk about levels of
[10:31] problems for a second. And I'm sure
[10:33] you've thought through this, but uh I
[10:35] often like to use this story. Um Ted
[10:37] Levitt in the 1960s said, "Nobody wants
[10:39] to buy a quarter-inch drill, they want
[10:41] to buy a quarter-inch hole."
[10:42] And then I like to say, "Nobody wants to
[10:44] buy a quarter-inch hole, they really
[10:45] want to buy the ability to hang a
[10:46] picture over their fireplace."
[10:48] Nobody really wants to buy the ability
[10:49] to hang a picture, they want a
[10:50] nice-looking living room. Yes. Right.
[10:52] And so, we just keep going down the path
[10:54] that says, "Hey, there's these layers
[10:57] and layers of problems." Yes. How do we
[11:00] find the right layers of problems?
[11:04] I have a very distinct process for that,
[11:07] but I'd like you I'd like you to tell me
[11:09] how you do it.
[11:11] I actually don't have a great answer
[11:13] other than
[11:14] the the No, no, no, the answer I give to
[11:16] that is we're going to look at different
[11:18] layers, we're going to look deeper and
[11:19] deeper, but we need to find one that
[11:22] resonates with the buyer, but it
[11:23] resonates with enough buyers that we can
[11:26] treat it as a marketing message. We can
[11:28] treat it as a as a tool that we can go
[11:30] look for. There is a potential problem
[11:32] we can go look for. No, so the way I
[11:34] break that down, what you call layers, I
[11:36] call
[11:37] uh
[11:39] elements, I guess. Um
[11:41] uh so, what I do is I break problems
[11:44] down into root cause, problem, impact.
[11:47] Okay? And you could make a circle with
[11:49] an arrow. I don't care how you do it,
[11:50] right? But they're connected. So, in my
[11:52] world,
[11:53] root causes
[11:55] are broken processes or tools.
[11:58] Right? So, in using your drill example,
[12:01] um
[12:02] uh either you don't have the tool, so
[12:04] you could argue that's a broken, you
[12:06] know, broken tool, or it's a bad
[12:08] Probably don't have the tool and the
[12:09] process of putting a hole in wood is
[12:10] pretty bad. You know what I'm saying?
[12:11] So, it's a broken process or tool. So,
[12:13] there's my root cause.
[12:15] My business problem is whatever it is
[12:17] I'm trying to accomplish.
[12:19] Okay? So, in this case, let's say I'm
[12:20] trying to build my daughter's um
[12:23] uh a dollhouse for her birthday. The
[12:25] business problem is I'm not going to be
[12:27] able to give my daughter her dollhouse.
[12:29] Okay?
[12:30] If it could be Another one could be um I
[12:34] am a contractor, right? And
[12:37] and I can't finish a job. So, the
[12:40] business problem is that job's going to
[12:42] be late.
[12:43] Okay? Notice the business problem is not
[12:44] a broken process or tool. You see the
[12:45] difference? Right?
[12:47] >> Uh-huh. It's the outcome of that broken
[12:48] process. So, it's going to be late, and
[12:50] then the impact is, which there could be
[12:52] a lot of those, I'm not going to get
[12:54] paid, I'll get paid less, I'll get poor
[12:56] customer satisfaction, the um the
[12:58] customer won't use me again, they could
[12:59] tell other people about me, I might not
[13:01] get referrals. Those are all the
[13:02] impacts. You see what I did there?
[13:05] So, and then go back to the other one,
[13:06] I'm going to miss my daughter's
[13:07] birthday, that's my business problem, so
[13:09] therefore, she's not going to get the
[13:10] joy of of getting her dollhouse, I'm
[13:13] going to feel guilty about myself, I'm
[13:14] going to feel like a failure dad. So,
[13:16] what I say is, the root cause is the
[13:18] what exists that makes the thing a
[13:20] manifest the problem. The problem is a
[13:22] thing that jumps out at me and says,
[13:24] "You got to fix this." Because you don't
[13:26] fix root cause unless they're manifest
[13:27] into a problem, and then the impacts are
[13:30] the motivation to get you to fix it.
[13:34] And that's how I break them down. So, if
[13:35] you're just really clear in
[13:37] differentiating between a root cause of
[13:38] problem and a root and an impact,
[13:40] there's there's your layers, and now
[13:43] it's just trying to get the person or
[13:44] persons to be real clear with with what
[13:48] the root causes are. Why are you in the
[13:49] situation? Because you're in the
[13:51] situation, how's this manifesting
[13:52] itself? And because it's manifesting
[13:54] itself, how is it impacting you?
[13:57] Nice. Nice. I think I would interpret
[13:59] those in my language. I don't By the
[14:01] way, I don't ever use the language or or
[14:03] talk about this in the way you just said
[14:05] as a business problem, but I would often
[14:07] think of that as the symptom.
[14:09] Right? So, if I were thinking,
[14:12] um
[14:12] I'm not my close rate's not high enough.
[14:15] Right? So, that's a symptom, but there's
[14:17] actually a problem that's causing that.
[14:19] And so, you're going into root causes, I
[14:21] would just call those problems, I think.
[14:23] And then the outcomes or impacts what
[14:24] you call, I think of as results. So, I
[14:26] think we're, you know, once again, we're
[14:28] identically lined up here, which is
[14:30] pretty cool.
[14:31] >> Let's kind of flip. If you say that
[14:34] symptom is my um
[14:36] is I'm not closing my win rate. I'm not
[14:38] closing enough deals.
[14:39] And then you said the problem is
[14:42] um
[14:42] uh
[14:43] I can't get people to pick up No, uh my
[14:45] my discovery is terrible. My discovery
[14:47] is terrible, right? Okay. That I
[14:50] I mean, you can label it that, but the
[14:52] reason I flipped it is because what the
[14:56] what I care about
[14:58] is that um I'm missing quota or my win
[15:01] rate's too low. That's what I care
[15:03] about. I don't care if I have a shitty
[15:05] discovery. That's why it's a root cause.
[15:07] So, psychologically, we flip that
[15:09] because at the end of the day, this is
[15:10] interesting. Watch what I do here, Mark.
[15:12] Your product or service solves the root
[15:14] cause. It can never solve the business
[15:16] problem.
[15:18] Right? So, and people live with root
[15:20] causes all day long. All day long. A
[15:23] drippy faucet, a
[15:25] um
[15:26] less than airtight windows, like those
[15:28] are all symptoms. What are they symptoms
[15:30] of? A bigger problem. But they may not
[15:33] manifest themselves into a problem big
[15:35] enough to fix until they get bad enough.
[15:38] So that's the only reason I would
[15:39] challenge you a little is flipping that.
[15:41] So you're on the right track, but the
[15:42] key is labeling them on how people are
[15:44] going to be motivated to move. The one
[15:46] they move least on is the root cause,
[15:48] which I is another way of saying
[15:49] symptom.
[15:50] The other one is the um the the uh
[15:53] what's the word I'm looking for? The
[15:53] manifestation of the root cause. People
[15:55] are like
[15:56] that got my attention, right? Like I
[15:58] just got my first heating bill in a
[16:01] while and it's tripping.
[16:03] Right? I Okay. Before it didn't bother
[16:05] me when it cost me a dollar 50 or two
[16:07] more. Now it's bothering me. Then the
[16:09] impact is when I go, wait, that's $300 I
[16:12] was going to save for XYZ. I can't do
[16:15] this anymore. I'm not doing that another
[16:16] month.
[16:16] I'm moving. You see what I'm saying? So
[16:18] just from a from a
[16:20] uh motivational perspective, root cause
[16:23] is the least motivating, problems are in
[16:25] the middle, impact is the most
[16:26] motivating.
[16:27] Yep. Okay, I understand how you're
[16:28] thinking.
[16:30] So what I typically do, and I'd love to
[16:31] hear your thoughts on this, is the
[16:33] companies, you know, pick a product, a
[16:34] CRM, right? There's a hundred different
[16:37] features in a CRM that a salesperson
[16:39] would want to talk about. And we both
[16:41] know that we don't want to talk about
[16:42] features, but but any given feature was
[16:45] put there to solve a problem.
[16:48] And and so the reason I go through this
[16:51] process the way I do is I say, "Hey
[16:52] look, give me a feature. Now what
[16:54] problems does that solve?
[16:56] Can we now articulate the different
[16:57] problems that that solves? And if I
[16:59] solve those problems, what result might
[17:01] I get?"
[17:03] Um and so you might think of those as
[17:05] outcomes. Yeah. That No, I think you
[17:07] take impact way beyond where I take
[17:09] results, but but I like it.
[17:12] No, you're you're you're logically
[17:13] playing on the right road and And don't
[17:15] want to get caught up in semantics. So,
[17:16] I do the same thing you do.
[17:19] And
[17:20] the way I do it though is if a root
[17:22] cause what I like to say is, "Okay,
[17:24] watch this."
[17:25] If you're eating processed food every
[17:28] single freaking day and you're not
[17:30] exercising, okay? Those are two bad
[17:32] processes, right? You're you're eating
[17:34] the wrong food, it's the process, that's
[17:36] a bad, right? And you're not exercising,
[17:38] that's a root cause. What problem does
[17:41] that cause?
[17:44] Obesity.
[17:47] Right, it depends on how you want to
[17:48] define the word problem, but you're
[17:49] absolutely right, right? It's obesity,
[17:51] it's unhealthfulness. Yes, it's it's
[17:53] obesity, right? Or it's yeah, or or
[17:55] being unhealthy, pre-diabetes, you know
[17:56] what I'm saying? Go all these other, but
[17:58] that's the problem, right? So, the
[18:00] reason I call it root cause and that
[18:02] other one a problem is because when I go
[18:04] to solve it
[18:06] as I'm selling something, I attack the
[18:08] root causes first. You say attack the
[18:10] problem first, but I I just like the
[18:12] word root cause because that's what it
[18:14] is. The root cause what causes the
[18:17] problem, right? What's causing the
[18:19] problem? That's sort of a more of a
[18:20] nomenclature that that I'd grown up
[18:22] using. It's Okay, what's your problem?
[18:23] Okay, what's causing it, right? So, I
[18:25] like to go back to root cause. Plus,
[18:26] it's easier for people to understand cuz
[18:28] when we do our training, they really
[18:29] struggle with this. They want the root
[18:31] causes to be the problems and I'm like,
[18:33] "Look, the root cause a broken process
[18:35] and tools. Just think that, right? Just
[18:39] stay there. But just because someone has
[18:41] a broken process and tool does not mean
[18:43] it always manifest into a problem that
[18:46] somebody is willing to fix. Those are
[18:49] the key That's That's how we cuz we're
[18:51] adding the psychological piece. I have
[18:52] to get people to sell and buy. So, I
[18:55] have to cuz you see sales people do it
[18:56] all the time. Okay, status quo, Mark,
[18:59] you see it. Why do people lose to the
[19:00] status quo? Because the sales team is
[19:02] selling to all the root causes and never
[19:04] stopped in using your language.
[19:06] They're selling to the problems and not
[19:07] getting to what's after problems for
[19:09] you.
[19:09] >> You can call it problems, that's just
[19:10] results, but you can say problems,
[19:12] that's fine. So So in your case there
[19:14] there there selling to just the problems
[19:15] in mind I use the word root causes, but
[19:17] those root causes have not manifested
[19:19] into a result or a business problem big
[19:21] enough to change. So that's like, "Oh
[19:23] yeah, they got to buy it because they
[19:24] have a leaky faucet. Oh and and and it's
[19:26] staining the tub, so they've got to
[19:27] buy." And I always say, "So what?"
[19:29] That's what I say, "So what? It's a
[19:31] leaky faucet staining the tub, so what?"
[19:33] So what? And they're like, "Oh, well,
[19:36] they don't want a leaky faucet and the
[19:37] stained tub." I was like, "Did you ask
[19:38] them that?" No, then why do you think
[19:40] they care? I walked into buddy's house
[19:42] in college it was worse than that.
[19:44] And then so then I go ask then they go
[19:46] back and say, "What is this leaky faucet
[19:47] and the stained tub really bothering
[19:49] you?"
[19:49] Then they go back, "Oh." I'm like,
[19:50] "What's the answer?" They're selling the
[19:52] house and it's bringing the property
[19:53] value down. Well, "Okay. How much THEY
[19:55] TRYING TO SELL THE HOUSE FOR?" See what
[19:56] I'm DOING NOW? I GOT YOU. HOW MUCH YOU
[19:58] TRYING to sell the house for? How many
[19:59] viewings have you gone and you didn't
[20:01] get an offer? What um have you Are you
[20:03] unable to move into your new house to
[20:04] make an offer till you get this one
[20:05] sold? So now this is impact. All of this
[20:09] stain and leaky [ __ ] faucet is all
[20:11] about the fact that they can't move into
[20:12] the house and [ __ ]
[20:14] feed their while retired and golf
[20:16] because THAT STUPID THING. GUESS I'M NOT
[20:18] SAYING THAT I'M PAYING ME TO FIX THAT
[20:19] NOW.
[20:20] KEENAN, I got to ask you a question. Do
[20:21] you ever get excited? All the time,
[20:24] all the time.
[20:27] Okay.
[20:28] Okay, I want to push back on something
[20:30] else just because I want I want to
[20:31] understand this and learn it, not not
[20:32] cuz I disagree on this one.
[20:34] So um So let's go back to the obesity
[20:37] problem. Yeah. Right? And so we've got
[20:38] I'm obese and so we I've got root causes
[20:41] and one of my root causes I don't
[20:42] exercise and I don't eat healthfully.
[20:44] Yes. Now Now it turns out that those may
[20:47] not be the real causes, right? It may be
[20:49] that I don't have a car so I can't get
[20:51] to the grocery store. It may be that it
[20:53] all the grocery stores around me are
[20:55] closed down and all I have is
[20:56] convenience store crap or McDonald's to
[20:58] eat or right? And so so there could be
[21:01] other root causes and and this is when I
[21:03] start thinking of levels of problems or
[21:05] levels of whatever you want to whatever
[21:07] you want to call it. And so how do you
[21:10] think through that process?
[21:12] So great point. So within the root cause
[21:15] So I stick to I stick to my labeling.
[21:19] Right? Particularly with root cause,
[21:21] broken process or tool. So if if I'm
[21:24] eating poorly and it's because I'm
[21:25] eating like [ __ ] I didn't go far enough
[21:27] to say why are you eating like [ __ ]
[21:28] I'll I'll go further. Is it because are
[21:30] you living in a food desert? Is it
[21:32] because you can't afford it? Is it
[21:33] because you like the taste? Like I'm
[21:34] I'll keep going down that road, but it
[21:36] still stays in the root cause column and
[21:39] it's just logical understanding. I eat
[21:41] like [ __ ] Great. Okay. Talk to me more
[21:43] about that.
[21:44] What do you eat? Are you able to get to
[21:46] the grocery store? Can you not afford
[21:47] nice better foods? Do you not like the
[21:48] taste of better foods? Like walk I have
[21:50] you say walk me through why you're
[21:52] eating primarily crappy food. I'll
[21:54] probably say it nicer, right? Then walk
[21:56] me through exercise, right? Do you have
[21:58] Are you just coming out of an injury?
[21:59] This is not uncommon, by the way. I got
[22:01] Are you coming out of an injury and if
[22:02] what's difficult to walk is it difficult
[22:04] to exercise? Or do you just feel that
[22:06] walking a day won't make a difference?
[22:07] Or you're just depressed? Like again,
[22:09] all of these things though notice are
[22:11] broken processes or tools that I'm just
[22:13] trying to keep pulling the string till I
[22:15] understand. When you didn't say I very
[22:17] easily could have said did you have a
[22:19] genetic disposition? I mean look, for a
[22:21] lot of people obesity is is genetic.
[22:23] Like I'm lucky. I'm almost 60 years old.
[22:25] I don't do very much and I'm thin. My
[22:27] sister wasn't so lucky, right? She had
[22:29] to work harder to keep so there could be
[22:31] a genetic disposition. Could be a
[22:32] thyroid issue. Again, broken process,
[22:34] broken tool, thyroid. So everything
[22:37] you're saying is 100% accurate. I just
[22:39] still leave it in the root cause cuz I'm
[22:41] still trying to pull the strings to get
[22:43] to the exact root cause diagnosis.
[22:46] Then what I do is I take that over to
[22:48] the business problem and now I start
[22:49] trying to value it. Okay. Make it a food
[22:52] desert, you just got over being hurt and
[22:54] you have a thyroid issue and you have a
[22:55] genetic predisposition. That's a lot.
[22:58] Let's talk about what obesity means now.
[23:00] So now I'm moving into the business
[23:01] problem like how much do you weigh? How
[23:03] much weight have you gained over time?
[23:05] You see what I'm saying? What is your
[23:06] fat count? Are you pre-diabetic? So, now
[23:09] I'm now I'm trying to quantify the
[23:11] impact of everything I just learned in
[23:12] that root cause.
[23:14] And watch what I do it, because you're
[23:15] right, every thread I pull helps you
[23:17] realize this problem's going to be way
[23:20] bigger than I realized or not so big.
[23:22] But, when I add in thyroid, genetic
[23:23] disposition, living in a food desert
[23:25] doesn't work, used to be hurt, I already
[23:27] know this poor cat is big, right? So,
[23:30] but then I already know to start asking
[23:31] questions about that. So, then I find
[23:33] out they're 500 lb, they put on 200 lb
[23:36] the last 3 years, which is an
[23:37] astronomical amount of weight. Um
[23:39] they're 100% pre-diabetic, they can't
[23:41] get out of the house, like all this
[23:42] stuff. So, then I know already know now,
[23:45] what do I know now? The impact. So, bro,
[23:47] you're at risk of cardiovascular
[23:49] disease, you're at risk of a heart
[23:50] attack, you're at risk of having
[23:51] full-blown diabetes. And and and and and
[23:53] and there's your impact, and you could
[23:55] die pre-early.
[23:56] Are you okay with not with these
[23:58] impacts, or do you are you ready to
[24:00] change? You see what I did there? So, it
[24:02] it still cycles itself.
[24:07] Got it. Got it. And and so, why is it
[24:11] the companies with great sales people,
[24:13] the buyers still don't understand
[24:16] all the value that they're going to get?
[24:18] Is is it because they don't do what you
[24:20] just said? Sales people don't do it?
[24:24] Right there. Right there. Sales people
[24:26] don't do it, they don't have the
[24:27] business acumen, they don't think about
[24:28] it. They quickly run to pitch, and they
[24:31] know what we've created, we actually
[24:32] talked about it when we got prospecting.
[24:33] What they created, Mark, is if I keep
[24:36] selling product-centric to you long
[24:37] enough,
[24:38] you're done thinking you're going to get
[24:40] any problem assessment out of me. You're
[24:42] going to see no problem evaluation
[24:44] value. So, what you're going to do is
[24:46] you're just going to resort to a
[24:47] product-centric buying
[24:50] uh process. So, that's where RFPs came
[24:52] from. It's like, I'm not going to help
[24:53] you try to solve my problem. I'm just
[24:55] I'm to tell you what I need for
[24:56] features, and you're going to deliver
[24:57] those features and I'm not going to talk
[24:58] to you. That's what we've gotten to.
[25:01] The
[25:01] good buying
[25:03] I've actually written an ebook on this.
[25:05] Good buying actually allows the
[25:08] salesperson to come in and you try to
[25:10] give the salesperson as much information
[25:12] as possible to see if they're able to
[25:15] solve your problem and if they can't,
[25:17] then you flick them. Right? Like I over
[25:19] inundate people selling to me with my
[25:21] problem and I say, you better make sure
[25:23] you can get this right. I just told you
[25:24] everything I'm struggling with. I told
[25:26] you the root causes. If I'm missing
[25:27] something, you're the expert. Ask me,
[25:29] I'll tell you or I'll go figure it out
[25:31] because I'm going to be pissed if I buy
[25:32] the wrong thing.
[25:34] So you better damn well know what you're
[25:36] selling me. You don't say you didn't
[25:37] know because I am an open book. I want
[25:40] the best solution possible and the only
[25:42] way to do that is to make sure that
[25:43] we're working together, that you
[25:44] understand my situation, what I'm trying
[25:46] to do, who my customers are, blah blah
[25:48] blah, yada yada.
[25:49] And most can't do it. They lack the
[25:50] business acumen.
[25:54] Yes. So that's that's two different
[25:56] directions I want to take it. So one of
[25:57] the things I find fascinating about
[25:59] sales people is that if we help our
[26:02] buyers understand their problems better,
[26:05] suddenly they trust us. And in fact,
[26:07] what they trust is that we know how to
[26:09] solve their problem.
[26:12] So You're a genius, Mark. 100%
[26:16] correct.
[26:18] I I think I think that's pretty cool. I
[26:20] think that's pretty cool. So um I think
[26:22] you'll I think you'll appreciate this
[26:23] cuz we've all been there. The metaphor I
[26:25] like to use is most people do not like
[26:27] being bothered when they shop retail
[26:28] shop. But if I say to most people, have
[26:30] you ever gone to a Home Depot or Lowe's
[26:32] looking for something, right? For home
[26:35] project. And every once in a while, it's
[26:37] usually an older gentleman who's retired
[26:39] and just loves people. He goes, "Hey,
[26:41] what you looking for?" And you're like,
[26:42] "Nothing, I'm good." He goes, "No,
[26:43] really, what you looking for?" And you
[26:44] go, "I'm looking for
[26:46] I'm looking for a, you know, an XYZ
[26:48] screw, you know, 3/4 inch long, blah
[26:50] blah. Okay, yeah, it's right there in
[26:51] and five, but let me ask you, what are
[26:53] you working on?
[26:55] And you're like,
[26:56] "Ah, I'm working on my daughter's
[26:57] dollhouse."
[26:58] Really? Why do you need a you know, a
[27:01] 3-in quarter, blah blah, blah. Well, I'm
[27:03] trying to fasten the wall.
[27:05] It is it a balsam? Is it a balsam
[27:07] dollhouse? Yes.
[27:09] You you you get this, you run the risk
[27:11] of splitting the wood. So, those won't
[27:14] be able to I I'd like to recommend
[27:16] right? Wood glue reinforced with
[27:19] staples. That would probably help you
[27:21] better run reduce the risk of splitting
[27:23] the balsam wood and having to start
[27:24] over, having to order a new wall, blah
[27:25] blah, blah.
[27:27] When that happens, what do you think
[27:28] most of us do?
[27:31] We're over the moon, Mark. Oh my god,
[27:34] thank you.
[27:35] We love the guy. We're like, "Oh my god,
[27:37] thank you, thank you, thank you, thank
[27:39] you." That to your point, that's just
[27:41] re-emphasizing your point. That's the
[27:42] credibility we get when somebody
[27:44] understands what we're doing, that
[27:46] offers something we didn't think about,
[27:47] that saves us time, trouble, money, or
[27:49] whatever.
[27:50] Yeah. I have
[27:52] never walked into a Home Depot and known
[27:54] what I was doing, so I always look for
[27:56] help.
[27:59] That's like the one That's like the one
[28:01] store where it's like, I got to have
[28:02] help.
[28:03] Okay, and then that's even better. Some
[28:05] people don't help you, they just tell
[28:06] you what I have. Other people start
[28:07] asking questions. How about that, right?
[28:09] Do you experience
[28:09] >> Oh, yeah. Huge. Yes. And the ones who
[28:12] ask questions are the ones you
[28:13] appreciate the most, right?
[28:15] Yeah, absolutely. There's no doubt. No
[28:18] doubt.
[28:19] Ken, and this has just been so much fun.
[28:20] I I wish I could have gotten your energy
[28:22] level up just a little bit. I'll work.
[28:24] Um as as we talked through this.
[28:27] So, so since you know I am a pricing
[28:29] guy, I told you that before we started,
[28:30] I am going to ask you a pricing
[28:31] question.
[28:33] So, what is one piece of advice, pricing
[28:35] advice, you would give our listeners
[28:37] that you think could have a big impact
[28:38] on their business?
[28:41] Understanding the size of the problem of
[28:43] not solving it.
[28:45] That price is like we all say price is
[28:47] delivered by value, but value is
[28:49] delivered by the size of the problem
[28:50] you're dealing with and the cost of not
[28:51] solving it. I say it all the time. Uh I
[28:54] have a uh uh I don't have one with me,
[28:55] but I have a little
[28:58] liter of water and that liter of water
[29:01] uh
[29:02] sitting outside my house
[29:04] I'd be lucky if I could sell it to you
[29:05] for a dollar. Right? At the grocery
[29:07] store, I could probably sell it you buy
[29:09] it for a dollar. At the 7-Eleven and
[29:11] you're on a trip driving somewhere, you
[29:12] don't want to go to the grocery store, I
[29:13] can sell it to you for $2. Sitting at a
[29:14] baseball game, I can sell it to you for
[29:16] about $5, right?
[29:18] In the desert
[29:20] and you've been there for two for for a
[29:22] week and you've been out of water for
[29:24] two days, I could sell it to you for
[29:26] everything you have.
[29:28] So, it the pricing is in relationship to
[29:31] value, but value is a tricky word. Don't
[29:34] get caught up on value. Value is
[29:36] measured by the size of the problem of
[29:38] the audience you serve
[29:41] if they don't solve it.
[29:43] So, in this case, let's use 7-Eleven,
[29:45] they can charge more money because most
[29:47] people going in there do not want to
[29:49] stop at a grocery store
[29:51] go back down one of the aisles, most
[29:53] likely only get it warm because they're
[29:55] trying to get somewhere, going to work,
[29:57] on a road trip. I don't want to pay that
[30:01] price of going to the grocery store. So,
[30:03] I will pay you 7-Eleven for the
[30:05] convenience of not having to go to the
[30:08] grocery store. That's the problem. No
[30:09] 7-Eleven, I got to go to the grocery
[30:10] store, warm water, cheaper, but no, I'll
[30:13] pay you. So, that's how you do it. What
[30:15] problem are you solving? What's the cost
[30:17] of that problem if they don't solve it?
[30:20] Some ratio in there is how much you
[30:21] charge or what your price is.
[30:23] Beautiful. Uh in case you care, here's
[30:25] my definition of value. I do, of course.
[30:28] Value is the result of solving problems.
[30:32] Yeah. So, it's pretty much exactly what
[30:33] you just said. Can I give you one little
[30:36] added piece that I know you're saying,
[30:37] it's just implied? Go ahead.
[30:40] From the buyer's perspective.
[30:42] Always. Oh, absolutely. People people
[30:44] assume that. Like what's your value
[30:45] proposition? You spout out No, no, no.
[30:47] The buyer decides, not you.
[30:49] Yep. Always, always, always. Keenan,
[30:51] this has been a blast. I've absolutely
[30:53] loved it. Thank you very much for your
[30:55] time. If anybody wants to contact you,
[30:56] how can they do that? LinkedIn. Just put
[30:58] in Keenan.
[31:00] Because they wouldn't let me leave the
[31:01] last name field blank, so I just put
[31:03] Keenan. You can't miss me.
[31:05] Perfect. And to our listeners, thank you
[31:07] for your time. If you enjoyed this,
[31:09] would you please leave us a rating and a
[31:10] review. And if you have any questions or
[31:12] comments about the podcast, or if you
[31:14] want to see value through your buyers'
[31:16] eyes, email me [address given on air].
[31:21] Now, go make an impact.

===FILE=== uyJs3F3Nxds - Unbeatable Sales Discovery Keenans Game-Changing GAP Selling Tips.txt
https://youtu.be/uyJs3F3Nxds
Unbeatable Sales Discovery： Keenan’s Game-Changing GAP Selling Tips

[0:06] [Music] [0:20] what is up beautiful people thank you [0:22] ever so much for joining us here today [0:24] we're going to be talking about [0:25] Discovery techniques to close indecisive [0:28] prospects we're going to break down what [0:30] buying looks like today where sales is [0:32] going wrong why we're losing so many [0:33] sales to indecision what we can do [0:35] differently the questions we can ask our [0:36] buyers to move them away from whatever [0:38] they're doing today so ultimately you [0:40] can win more sales I just want to say a [0:42] big thank you before we jump in to our [0:44] partners without these Partners sell [0:46] better show just wouldn't be possible so [0:47] today we're being sponsored by Zoom info [0:50] and Cil here's a stat for you did you [0:52] know that sales people spend about 70% [0:54] of their time not selling that means [0:56] they're building lists they're doing [0:57] admin they're updating the CRM more than [1:00] they're actually talking to their [1:01] customers that's why these two tools are [1:03] really awesome today Keenan glad you [1:06] were able to join us my friend yes baby [1:08] I had to shut everything down I don't [1:10] know what happened man I'm glad to have [1:12] you on here today I want to ask who here [1:14] has read this book I'm holding right now [1:17] you heard of it Keenan no I'm trying to [1:20] click no but it won't let me yeah as a [1:23] presenter you're not allowed to par this [1:24] in the polls otherwise you could [1:25] influence the results mate that would be [1:27] bias but a few years ago I picked up [1:28] that book and it actually changed my [1:30] perspective on sales massively which is [1:31] why I'm super excited to have you on the [1:32] sale better show today and talk about [1:34] these things and I want to start off [1:36] with where are things at today so you [1:39] wrote Gap selling I think in 2019 am I [1:41] right basically like December 15th of [1:44] 2018 so yeah so just say 2019 that's [1:47] puts us almost six years old it it's [1:49] older than my son I wanted to see since [1:51] then how much of things changed in terms [1:54] of what it's like to buy and what it's [1:55] like to [1:56] sell how to buy and sell hasn't changed [1:59] like that's consistent we just been [2:00] circling the wagon for a long time I [2:02] think a couple of things I think selling [2:04] is all screwed up and selling is all [2:05] screwed up for a couple of reasons one [2:08] is there was a period here and my old [2:09] ass you know thinks things are a lot [2:12] longer than they are but for about seven [2:14] or eight years with this all this [2:16] emphasis on tools you know and like [2:18] Outreach and sales Loft and and why [2:21] can't I think of all the other ones all [2:22] the tools that we're using to try to [2:24] drive sales there has been a complete [2:27] lack of commitment to selling skill [2:29] skill sets and scaling selling [2:31] capabilities and the we really weren't [2:33] raising up a generation of sellers who [2:36] knew how to sell they were sort of [2:37] brought up on how to leverage Tools in a [2:40] selling process but the fundamental [2:42] approach to selling has been sort of put [2:46] on the back burner and now we're seeing [2:47] the effects of that and then secondly [2:50] because of that buyers are fed up so [2:53] buyers don't see value in salese anymore [2:55] they just don't see the value in them [2:56] they don't see them bringing any value [2:58] to their business so they're fed up with [3:00] they just say take my order and leave me [3:03] alone you don't they're not bring in any [3:04] value to the to the equation so what you [3:06] have is you have product Centric buyers [3:08] compar with product Centric Sellers and [3:11] everything is just around the product [3:12] and no one's really providing any [3:13] insight or value on how to actually [3:14] solve problems and help how does that [3:18] look in practice example wise you said [3:21] you got product Centric sellers product [3:23] Centric buyers what do those two things [3:25] mean so let me make it really clear and [3:27] simple for everybody because I'm [3:29] passionate about this have been for a [3:30] while and we meet companies all over the [3:32] world oh yeah we're problem Centric and [3:33] oh yeah we're doing this oh yeah we're [3:35] implementing Gap selling on our own and [3:36] no you're fucking not you're just not so [3:39] the way I would describe it is this I'm [3:40] GNA get out of sales for one second I [3:41] actually was with a customer this [3:43] morning and just crystallize it for them [3:45] the way I want everybody to imagine [3:46] you're going to the doctor you feel [3:48] something is wrong and you think I need [3:51] to go see the doctor okay so I'm not [3:53] even Pi a broken arm you know it's [3:54] broken but you're not feeling right and [3:56] after a week or two weeks or a fucking [3:57] month I don't care you're like I got to [3:59] go see a something's not fucking right [4:01] you have one of two choices doct a is oh [4:05] okay so you're saying you're not feeling [4:07] right you feel you might have you know [4:09] cancer you feel you might have [4:10] indigestion I don't care so yeah let's [4:12] go that you think you really have really [4:13] bad indigestion great let me tell you [4:16] what I got so I have this indigestion [4:19] medicine take it three times a day it's [4:20] going to do this it's going to do that [4:21] it'll make you feel great it only costs [4:22] this much so go home and have a great [4:23] time oh awesome great that's what I want [4:25] but hey I need indigestion medicine so I [4:28] got indigestion medicine great so here's [4:30] your indest medicine go the fuck home [4:32] how do we know it's indigestion how do [4:34] we know when it started why it's [4:36] happening how do we know it's not [4:37] pancreatic cancer how do we know it's [4:39] not gird how do we know it's not a [4:40] problem with your gall blad we don't [4:41] have a fucking clue the other doctor [4:44] however says all right tell me what's [4:45] going on tell me what's going on you [4:47] know I've been having these pains [4:48] exactly where are the pains in this [4:50] particular area how long have you been [4:51] having them about two or three months [4:53] now have you changed your diet no how [4:55] bad is the pain on a scale of 1 to 10 [4:58] it's seven what was it two months ago [5:00] it's actually a four oh so it's getting [5:01] worse um is it seven all day long no [5:05] it's only right after oh right after you [5:07] eat tell me more about that so during [5:08] the day when you're not eating these [5:10] things is it this no it's not so they [5:12] ask all of these questions to understand [5:14] and they're like you know what I want to [5:15] take a little blood and I'd like to take [5:17] an x-ray or a CAT scan I want to see [5:19] these things blood comes back these [5:20] things are messed up CAT scan shows no [5:22] signs of cancer it's like all right you [5:24] know what I think it is I think it's [5:25] this I think it's caused by this so [5:28] based on that I'm going to recommend [5:31] this we don't do that in sales what [5:33] sales is about is solving Fucking [5:35] Problems a business is trying to do [5:36] their job and all of a sudden they [5:38] realize my job is not as good as it [5:40] could be because I have a problem sales [5:43] is supposed to help them solve that [5:44] problem instead Sal says I got an [5:46] indigestion pill great we want an [5:48] digestion pill sometimes it works [5:50] sometimes it doesn't and I got a stat [5:52] for you that'll blow your mind 50% of [5:55] buyers said they have bought the wrong [5:57] fucking [5:58] thing 50 [6:00] 50% and that's a symptom of the fact [6:03] that we aren't diagnosing up front not [6:06] even symptom it's the problem because [6:08] we're not diagnosing up front because [6:10] they're going in as product Centric [6:11] buyers because they're so fed up and [6:13] because salesp people don't have a [6:14] freaking clue half the time they just [6:16] want to push the product they all just [6:17] agree I need an indigestion and the [6:19] worst part of it is every once in a [6:20] while they actually had pancreatic [6:22] cancer and they die they missed it they [6:25] missed it I think this is a really [6:26] helpful metaphor just to really put this [6:28] into context but talked by the way is [6:30] getting done for malpractice for the [6:31] first thing which is kind of what you're [6:32] describing people buying the wrong thing [6:34] churning early and uh massive churn [6:36] issues in software but if you don't the [6:39] buyer thinks they know what they need [6:41] sometimes especially for inbound leads [6:42] right they think they know what they [6:43] need like I said like you said someone [6:45] has a headache they come to the doctor [6:47] to get some painkiller [6:48] prescriptions you can either give them [6:50] the painkiller prescriptions that [6:51] they're asking for but that might not [6:53] solve the root cause of what's giving [6:54] them the headache in the first place [6:56] because what you didn't do is ask the [6:57] questions that could have uncovered the [6:59] fact that they actually have some very [7:02] you know serious illness within them yep [7:04] or vice versa as well you might have you [7:07] can't just assume the worst things [7:08] happening they might just have a little [7:09] mild headache and you wouldn't prescribe [7:12] you know chemo to someone who has a [7:15] migraine because they didn't drink [7:16] enough water ex this goes both ways and [7:18] it's not to say that buyers don't know [7:19] what they don't know it's just that they [7:21] it's our job to help them get there as [7:23] well I'm curious how does this look in [7:26] practice for a seller a buyer comes to [7:29] them [7:30] today we've already kind of been over it [7:31] they're just giving out the product [7:32] they're giving them what they want [7:33] they're saying you want this we have [7:35] this how does that look in a sales [7:37] process itself so if a buyer comes and [7:40] says look I want to I don't know I want [7:42] your software okay let's let's make a [7:45] real example sell better sells [7:47] sponsorships can we can we work with [7:49] that yeah I guess we can work with that [7:51] sponsorships to who companies in the [7:53] sales Tech space Marketing sales [7:55] technology and service companies so cell [7:58] has a big network of people or a lot of [8:00] eyeballs we got a fair few of them on [8:02] the cool today that's right okay so you [8:03] got a lot of eyeballs and you got to [8:05] sell that Mark all right so I come to [8:06] you and say hey I want to buy an ad or I [8:08] want to do some advertising with you oh [8:10] great here I can take your order I can [8:12] say wait stop tell me like what this my [8:15] everybody take it out so only question [8:17] you ask on an inbound only question you [8:19] should ask on inbound the very first [8:21] time someone says I want something [8:24] fantastic tell me what prompted you to [8:27] call or what prompted you to want or [8:29] feel you need [8:31] advertising and I [8:33] say we are not getting as many [8:36] click-throughs on our ads anymore so [8:38] we're exploring new Revenue generation [8:40] opportunities so beautiful I love that [8:42] answer to me that's a softball answer [8:44] because you already yeah we were having [8:46] ads no one's clicking on them anymore so [8:47] we're looking a few a few different [8:49] sponsorship opportunities to figure out [8:50] if there AR there we want to do a few [8:51] tests right even when you said no one's [8:53] clicking on it I love this because you [8:54] keep telling me there's a problem [8:55] sometimes people will say we just wanted [8:57] to explore or we just felt we needed new [8:59] ad [9:00] sometimes they won't tell you the [9:00] problem they'll just say oh we just [9:01] wanted to explore new options or we just [9:04] wanted to expand our marketing budgets [9:06] they don't even tell you said yeah all [9:08] right so I say fantastic so [9:11] understanding that you're thinking you [9:11] want more what's behind that thinking [9:14] are you not having are you not getting [9:15] the lead you want today my assumption is [9:17] that if you're reaching out there's [9:18] something you're looking to achieve [9:20] could you share that with me yeah we ran [9:22] a test sponsorship with another media [9:24] company and it went pretty well so now [9:26] it feels like we should probably try to [9:28] find more places where that might work [9:29] for us when you said it went pretty well [9:31] what do you mean by it went pretty well [9:33] when we looked at afterwards we were [9:34] able to generate six sales qualified [9:37] opportunities out out of it at a much [9:39] lower rate than we normally do didn't [9:41] happen immediately but over the past [9:42] three months we' monitoring it and we [9:44] saw that was an attribution sour for us [9:46] all right so when you Tye what you [9:48] normally do then what I'm hearing is [9:50] you're probably not concerned you're not [9:51] at where you should be from a lead [9:54] generation perspective from the [9:55] investment you're making into [9:57] leads yeah [9:59] I wouldn't say that's untrue I think the [10:01] issue can sometimes be that we generate [10:03] enough leads but the conversion rate on [10:05] those isn't quite where it needs to be [10:07] so then we have to generate more than we [10:09] would otherwise need if they were [10:10] comping a better rate okay thank you so [10:12] what I'm hearing is not necessarily a [10:13] number of leads issue it's a conversion [10:15] issue could you walk me through what [10:16] your conversions are today yeah so [10:18] typically from a mql which meets all of [10:21] our qualified criteria right person [10:23] right type of company through to a sales [10:25] accepted lead which is an SQL um that [10:28] would be [10:31] % 30% so from an mql to a sales accepted [10:35] in roughly how many leads in a quarter [10:37] or a month or a year are you talking [10:39] about we have a sales team of 10 and we [10:41] need to try and get them at least 20 [10:42] skos a month so right now we're probably [10:45] putting [10:46] across a thousand leads a month to the [10:48] sales team thousand mqls a month [10:51] thousand mqls a month that thousand's [10:52] turning 300 sqs across across 10 people [10:55] that's 30 but I thought you said you [10:57] wanted 20 sounds like you're doing [10:58] pretty well we're doing okay but we have [11:01] a very transactional sized product and [11:03] our overheads are quite high so we need [11:05] to be selling a lot more than that our [11:06] sales cycle on average about two days so [11:10] we they need a few more than 20 they've [11:11] tried self sourcing themselves but [11:13] that's not really our business we're the [11:14] marketing team okay so you're getting 30 [11:16] now if I did the math or did we do this [11:18] backwards I got the number wrong because [11:20] I'm making up as I go along but yeah I [11:22] like that you did that because you see [11:23] what I did here a lot of people talk [11:25] about Discovery and people get Discovery [11:27] fatigue and but I'm doing Discovery but [11:29] the customer doesn't like it but did you [11:31] notice what I was doing here I was [11:33] paying very damn close attention to [11:35] every word you said to the point when [11:38] the math didn't math I went back into [11:40] wait a minute you said you only needed [11:42] 20 but based on what I've heard you made [11:43] 30 so let's dig into that if you don't [11:45] think that happens in real life you're [11:47] kidding yourself so what then starts [11:48] happening is they start to realize they [11:50] don't really have a grip on this at all [11:51] I mean we can keep going if you'd like [11:52] but what I would have done there is I [11:54] would have started unraveling this piece [11:55] and said oh wait you got it wrong let's [11:56] step back a second and I say look what I [11:58] really want understand is where you are [12:00] then I want to understand the [12:00] transactional piece when you say [12:02] transactional it's a day or two how much [12:04] is that average sale what's happening [12:05] there you see what I'm doing I'm going [12:07] through this whole fucking thing and I'm [12:08] doing it in my mind I am listening [12:10] cranking listening cranking listening [12:11] cranking and I will get you to a place [12:13] where you are like oh shit okay I get it [12:17] now and then I'll be like okay I see [12:21] where you're trying to go and this is [12:23] where I believe we can help yeah so you [12:25] mentioned a few things there number one [12:27] Discovery fatigue and I think this is [12:28] where a lot of sellers get their in a [12:30] what I would call they put their heads [12:31] in the wrong space with it Discovery [12:33] fatigue they feel bad about asking [12:34] questions of bias yeah why is that and [12:37] what should they do instead two things [12:39] one they feel bad asking buyers [12:40] questions because either they don't [12:41] believe in their product or they don't [12:44] believe in the space they're working on [12:46] or two they don't really understand it [12:48] so if someone comes to me and says a [12:51] good friend comes to me and says hey [12:53] Keenan you know what I'm thinking about [12:54] breaking up with my girlfriend I'm [12:55] thinking about getting divorced I care [12:58] like I instantly I just saying that [13:00] gives me the chills like I care so I'm [13:02] like so they'll say what do you think I [13:03] should do I'm like whoa what do you mean [13:05] I need to understand what's going on you [13:07] see what I'm saying I am not going to [13:09] say give my fucking opinion at all which [13:11] is your product the solution until I [13:14] understand what's going on so I'm asking [13:16] and listening and so I am very connected [13:19] to that person and the problems they [13:21] perceive they have now if it's someone I [13:24] don't care about or I'm not connected to [13:26] like I was at a bar last night having [13:28] dinner this guy sat next to me I don't [13:29] know why he did he just started chatting [13:31] away like one of those guys I'm like [13:32] yeah and if he asked me a question like [13:34] that hey you know look man I'd ask him [13:36] for a high level questions so how long [13:37] you been married and what is about her [13:38] and and then I ask these disjointed High [13:40] LEL questions sounds me she's fucked and [13:42] then you send them on their way so it's [13:45] because you're not connected to the [13:46] buyer and the set of problems they have [13:48] that your mind is not actually listening [13:50] to understand you're just asking [13:53] questions to make the sale you're just [13:55] asking can I get a piece of information [13:57] here and here that I can jump on and [13:59] start pitching so you keep saying [14:02] problems how are we me to know what [14:03] problems our buyers are facing and what [14:04] are we striving towards with these [14:05] questions you're striving to find a [14:07] problem just like the doctor what is the [14:09] problem is the problem in digestion is [14:11] it cancer is it blood issues okay let me [14:13] step back everybody this is what sales [14:16] is that no one has done a good job in 65 [14:18] years or 70 years telling you what sales [14:20] is sales is when done correctly a [14:24] problem solving exercise let me be as [14:27] clear as possible an individual and or a [14:30] business says hey where I'm at right now [14:33] is not working for me see I'm a small [14:36] contractor and I've got a bunch of [14:37] pickup trucks and let's say I'm a small [14:39] landscaper and I got a bunch of pickup [14:41] trucks and all my tools go in the back [14:42] the lawnmowers back and as I've been [14:44] around I've built a good fucking [14:45] clientele and someone's asked me to do [14:47] some heavy shit like railroad ties and [14:48] now I need to move I'm finding myself [14:51] more and more often having to move large [14:53] amounts of dirt that I cannot do in my [14:55] pickup truck so I have a problem I can't [14:57] scale my business why because I can't [14:59] take on certain clients why because I [15:01] have uh pickup trucks not a dump truck [15:03] so I think I need a dump truck so the [15:06] salesperson's job here is to figure out [15:09] what the best truck is how big is his [15:11] business what's the best way to finance [15:13] it what type of truck will me meet his [15:15] requirements does he need one that tips [15:16] up and dumps is he other way of getting [15:18] into it does he need a tailgate that [15:19] goes up or down not because I want to [15:21] sell that shit but I'm trying to figure [15:23] out what the absolute unequivocal beyond [15:26] a shadow of it out best solution [15:30] is for his problem that's sales so when [15:34] we go into sales and we're trying to [15:36] sell something if you don't know the [15:39] problems that your product or service [15:41] solves if you don't know the root causes [15:43] of those problems and you don't know the [15:46] impacts those problems have on an [15:47] organization before you start selling [15:51] you can't sell you can only order take [15:54] okay this is making a ton of sense you [15:56] cannot sell the solution without fully [15:59] understanding the problem you mentioned [16:00] three things there the problem the root [16:03] cause and the impact I want to [16:04] understand what those three things mean [16:06] because that sounds like what we need to [16:07] uncover very early on when we're having [16:09] conversations with [16:10] new so the problem what's going wrong [16:15] what do you mean by root cause so root [16:17] cause is what's causing the problem it's [16:20] it's why does the problem exist so let's [16:22] keep jumping back and forth from that [16:23] doctor example right yeah if I find out [16:26] that you have gird which is gast [16:29] reflux some shit right it it's when it [16:31] goes up into your throat right yeah the [16:34] do in order for the doctor to fix that a [16:35] better understand it's why is it [16:36] happening is it the food you're eating [16:39] is it your overweight is it something [16:41] with your stomach is it not placed in [16:43] the right way has is there damage to the [16:45] stomach do you see what I'm saying the [16:47] doctor's ability for her to understand [16:49] what's causing it plays a massive role [16:52] in solving it what people don't [16:55] understand is when you find the problem [16:57] in a sale you can't solve that problem [17:00] you can only solve the root causes to [17:02] the problem and so if you find the [17:05] problem but you can't figure out what [17:06] the the root causes are you are left [17:09] sort of out in the wind and one of the [17:10] root causes to low quarter rainment and [17:13] long sales Cycles is a shitty product [17:16] that's one of the root causes right yeah [17:20] we don't solve that one here at ASG I [17:22] can't fix your product so when we're [17:24] going through the discovery process and [17:25] we find out you have two or three of [17:27] these problems we go right to the [17:28] Discovery to find out why and if if the [17:30] product is shit we're like look we we [17:33] love you guys but knowing you're doing a [17:34] rewrite and you're doing all this stuff [17:36] we advise you don't buy us until the [17:37] product is done because we can't solve [17:39] that we can't solve that root cause [17:42] which then will make your problem go [17:43] away so that's the difference yeah [17:46] meanwhile if the root cause was they [17:48] were doing a piss poor job of Discovery [17:50] or finding a need before they came in [17:51] Pitch the solution that's where you can [17:53] say I can and being able to prove that [17:55] you can solve that's when you might come [17:56] in and present a solution but not until [17:58] you know that you also spoke about [17:59] impact what what's that all about why [18:01] does that matter impact is where the [18:02] motivation to buy exists okay right I [18:05] can have a problem and I know it's a [18:07] problem but if the impact isn't enough [18:09] to get me to move it's not untenable or [18:11] intolerable I'm not moving I'm not doing [18:14] anything so perfect example great [18:15] example of this is we work with a [18:17] company one of my clients is many years [18:19] ago and most of their clients were like [18:22] Fortune 10 Fortune 20 mining companies [18:24] oil and gas ET up I think it's upstream [18:26] or Downstream whatever it is so the [18:28] refineries all the way to whatever right [18:30] and they did something called uh [18:32] maintenance reliability maintenance [18:33] maintaining all their equipment the [18:35] reason you did that is because if you [18:36] didn't properly do it created a downtime [18:38] so they found with one of their clients [18:40] because of unplanned downtime they were [18:42] losing between 300 and $400 million a [18:45] year and so we were like holy shit [18:47] there's a huge gap and I wasn't on any [18:49] of these calls but I was doing the deal [18:50] reviews and I'm like okay you guys got a [18:52] good Gap this is huge and then it [18:53] wouldn't close and finally I asked my [18:55] favorite question why have they not [18:56] bought because everything's there the [18:58] gap is huge and finally what we came to [19:00] or I asked the question because I didn't [19:02] know it at the time I said how big is [19:03] this company and I think they were like [19:05] 75 billion dollar I said there's your [19:09] problem the impact of losing $325 [19:11] million a year although I'm sure that [19:13] little group would like to fix it in the [19:15] big picture of things it's not a big [19:17] enough impact so until they could show a [19:19] bigger Downstream impact it's going to [19:21] be hard to get them to to move right now [19:23] so that's where impact is the motivation [19:25] to buy you can have impacts but you got [19:27] to understand how big they are and Order [19:28] someone to want to solve the problem [19:31] what what if there isn't a problem or [19:33] the impact isn't very big someone yeah I [19:34] just want to do better they won't buy so [19:37] what there's no such there's no such [19:39] thing as someone who wants to do just [19:40] better you have to Define it so people [19:42] understand this is what I love about [19:43] this but it's also like get passionate [19:45] about Gap selling and why we have such a [19:46] problem because people aren't aware [19:47] enough to accept these things nobody [19:49] just says I just want to get better and [19:50] buy now if it's I just want to get [19:52] better and it's only going to cost me 50 [19:54] bucks in a couple hours all right great [19:55] I'll give it a shot but the it just want [19:57] to get better the next thing they're [19:59] going to ask is what's the cost of that [20:00] better so when you say ah I don't have [20:02] really a big problem I just want to get [20:03] better could you please toine better and [20:05] if it's only this big I'm like okay so [20:07] you just want to lose a few pounds but [20:09] if I'm going to tell you it's going to [20:10] cost you to go to the gym four days a [20:12] week and you have to change your diet [20:13] for two pounds you're like a fuck it I [20:14] don't want to do that so they're not [20:17] gonna buy this is what you got not you [20:19] but this is what we all miss is that if [20:22] without a big enough impact if it's not [20:24] untenable and tolerable they are not [20:26] going to change unless the cost of [20:27] change is so fucking small they don't [20:29] give a shit this is something that I've [20:31] seen tons and I want to move on to the [20:33] process and how teams can start changing [20:34] this and building this into their [20:36] process and makeing sure this happens [20:37] less frequently and measure whether it's [20:39] going wrong but selling better is the [20:42] what I did for many years and it is just [20:45] numbers and getting lucky when I started [20:48] looking for those problems that's where [20:50] things started working I'll give you an [20:51] example right you know Pac-Man you see [20:53] my arcade machine back thereit of a nerd [20:55] the Pac-Man game anyone who's old enough [20:58] to remember I guess how there when it [21:00] came out slick just remember yeah I I I [21:02] could tell Ken don't worry right I've [21:03] already sized you up the game of Pac-man [21:05] you have to go collect all the pills [21:06] right but you're being chased by ghosts [21:08] but the goal is collect all the pills [21:09] and you can move them to the next level [21:10] if you're selling [21:11] cherries and you start talking about how [21:14] the cherries going to get Pac-Man more [21:16] points and he's going to play it cool [21:18] jingle when you pick it up and Pac-Man's [21:19] going to start flashing you're going to [21:21] be able to eat ghosts that's all great [21:23] but it doesn't matter unless there is an [21:25] existing problem with the way that [21:26] Pacman's trying to play the game today [21:28] in that sense hey are the ghosts getting [21:30] you and are you losing all three lives [21:32] that's the impact and having to restart [21:33] the entire game again that's like [21:35] selling that but the sounds without [21:38] Pac-Man doesn't need a cherry Pac-Man [21:40] will be just fine without it and [21:42] therefore it's not worth selling to [21:43] Pac-Man and it's worth having an honest [21:45] conversation to say hey doesn't seem [21:48] like you need this have I [21:50] missed what would you say to that [21:52] anything I missed no put I think you [21:55] nailed it I my favorite part of you is [21:57] that without these three goats [21:59] Pac-Man doesn't need the Cherry like [22:01] that was I couldn't say it any all right [22:05] so why hasn't this changed you wrote the [22:07] book in 2018 2019 it's been out for six [22:10] years now it's six years old it's your [22:12] baby it's available to people why aren't [22:14] people doing it and what should they [22:15] start doing to implement some things [22:16] that are actually going to help them [22:17] avoid no decision avoid selling to the [22:20] wrong root cause or selling to people [22:21] who haven't uncovered an impact or are [22:24] prescribing the wrong medication to [22:25] people what should sales teams be doing [22:28] you want to answer why they haven't do [22:29] it eight questions in a row yeah I know [22:31] which one t Okay so that's a complex [22:35] question I'm gonna do something I don't [22:36] do very well and I'm gonna try to be [22:38] brief on this I'm just gonna tell you [22:40] the reasons and then if you want to ask [22:41] more questions you can I think the first [22:43] reason and the most dis disheartening [22:46] reason is they think they are the second [22:49] one is the culture of [22:52] sales this type of selling by many is [22:55] perceived it is not but it is perceived [22:58] is taking too long and not in the best [23:01] interest of the company because there's [23:03] a fear like you find a problem and they [23:04] don't have a problem we've got to get [23:06] rid of it and then the idea is just push [23:07] push push right like just push the the [23:10] product so the today's culture of get [23:14] deals at all costs and the fact that [23:16] they think they're doing it and then [23:18] thirdly those who even think they're [23:20] doing it lack the infrastructure support [23:24] and coaching to make sure it's being [23:26] done so those are your three reasons [23:29] those are my root causes for the problem [23:31] of not doing this if you have a question [23:33] folks please use the Q&A and I have a [23:34] quick poll that I wanted to ask before [23:35] we get into a little bit deeper into [23:37] this what is your role in sales or [23:40] otherwise because the next question I [23:42] want to ask you in is who who's to blame [23:45] for that because obviously a lot of the [23:46] people like myself as a seller when I [23:48] picked up the book and started thinking [23:49] about problems it got better for me but [23:51] for three years I had a manager who [23:52] didn't I wish had a shaken net but maybe [23:55] it was on me I should have picked it up [23:57] sooner and should have realized what was [23:58] was wrong but I didn't know what I [23:59] didn't know until I had an interview and [24:01] they said our favorite sales book is Gap [24:03] selling so then I was like oh yeah I've [24:05] read that I lied and then I had to go [24:07] Rush read it and I was like oh that [24:09] makes tons of sense so where does this [24:12] start I think first it starts with an [24:15] acceptance that you're not doing it this [24:16] is my I feel my relationship with the [24:18] sales world is like a real relationship [24:20] I have to accept certain things and you [24:22] know what I'm saying and have to learn [24:24] to go slow in other ways I Lally feel [24:26] like I'm married to the sales world but [24:27] the first one is as it relates to Gap [24:30] selling okay most people think they do [24:33] it they don't even realize or understand [24:35] what it really is so an example is I was [24:37] doing a speaking engagement back in [24:39] beginning of the year and a lot of [24:42] people kept saying oh yeah I've been [24:43] doing Gap sign read your book I do it [24:45] it's awesome so I asked one simple [24:46] question of I said who who does Gap [24:48] selling or been practicing and all these [24:49] hands went up and I said okay youa he [24:51] said yes I said okay what's the most [24:53] important opportunity in your pipeline [24:54] and You' listed off some company I said [24:56] great I said okay so tell me [24:59] why did they have to buy and he said [25:01] because they don't have an XYZ blah blah [25:03] blah they don't have this I'm like no no [25:05] that is not what they have why do they [25:07] have to buy and he gave me another high [25:09] level dumb answer and I said listen let [25:11] me tell you what I'm looking for the [25:13] answer should be if you're an actual Gap [25:14] seller is they have to buy because [25:16] everybody watch what I do here everybody [25:18] take this back to your own CRM and look [25:20] at all the deals that are important to [25:22] you and if you can't say this you're [25:24] fucked currently they are experiencing [25:28] or struggling with or challenged with [25:30] and I can't remember what his thing was [25:31] but I'm going to make shit up they're [25:33] losing $2.5 million per month because [25:37] insert root cause right in addition [25:40] because of that they're unable to expand [25:42] in New Markets or they're seeing [25:43] attrition increase by 22% their cost of [25:46] rehires is this that's an additional $2 [25:48] million and you're just listing all of [25:51] the shit show that is going on in the [25:54] organization and so therefore if they do [25:56] not buy our XYZ product and fix these [25:59] things in the next six months they will [26:01] not be able to get their stock price too [26:03] wide they will not be able to enter [26:04] these markets what they said they want [26:05] to do they're risk of losing market [26:07] share Etc that's the fucking answer [26:10] that's the Gap selling fucking answer [26:12] and let me tell you right now I don't [26:14] care this is why I'm not the biggest [26:15] sales training company in the world [26:17] because what I'm about to say because it [26:18] pisses people off they don't like my [26:19] personality but leadership owns this [26:21] piece leadership does nothing to ensure [26:25] that this type of information is [26:27] captured in the CRM in Deal reviews [26:30] looks the rep in the eye and says [26:31] explain to me why should they buy and [26:33] look for that information and so no [26:36] one's getting it if no one's getting it [26:37] then no one's learning to get it they're [26:39] going to default as quickly as possible [26:42] to let me show you my product you don't [26:45] have a mouse you need a mouse end of [26:48] discussion that is Gap selling at its [26:50] finest and here with my salespeople we [26:53] go through this every day and when I see [26:56] it if I don't think it's enough I'm like [26:58] all that's decent enough but I'm not [26:59] convinced that's enough to get them to [27:01] spend the money I need to know this and [27:03] this change of buying Tech or Services [27:08] coming to even a half day workshop with [27:10] Yukan they're taking their tail team off [27:12] the floor for half their day so they're [27:14] losing a ton of productivity to do that [27:16] they got to plan it they got to pay for [27:17] you they've got to bring you out if [27:19] there isn't a big enough problem that [27:20] makes them want to do that they're not [27:21] going to do it nope so the again to [27:24] repeat what you said because I love that [27:25] so much look at your deals [27:29] as a manager look at your Sal sales [27:30] team's deals if you're a rep send this [27:32] to your manager right now and look at [27:33] the deals and say why will they buy and [27:35] the answer should start with because if [27:37] they don't currently see currently [27:40] they're currently currently you have to [27:42] describe the in I don't want to [27:44] interrupt you but I really want this to [27:45] sink in because you missed it just like [27:46] the doctor why do they need chemo now [27:49] currently they have a stage three tumor [27:52] that is two millimeters wide it's [27:55] sitting a centimeter a away let's put on [27:58] the panc sitting a millimeter away from [27:59] the liver it is I don't know and I list [28:02] all this other stuff oh they've had it [28:03] for this long their blood work looks [28:05] like this so this is where I am today if [28:08] we don't do this within three months it [28:11] will metastasize to the liver once it [28:14] metastasized to the liver the chances of [28:17] survival drop from 70% to 6% do you see [28:21] what I'm ding you wanted to start with [28:23] if we don't do this it goes from 70 no [28:25] you can't start there you have to start [28:27] here because that's the credibility this [28:29] is the believable piece this is where [28:32] you [28:33] are yes that's why this will happen you [28:37] have to start with currently today I was [28:40] gonna say if they don't they will [28:41] continue to but I'll give you a pass on [28:44] that one mate I have a couple of [28:45] questions here and there's another piece [28:46] that I know you want to leave off on but [28:48] I want to address some questions here [28:49] because one said here there's a fair few [28:51] I in the audience we saw the answers [28:52] there about half people in the room are [28:54] account Executives or closers otherwise [28:56] there was a mix of sdrs and leaders and [28:58] rest of the other 50% wait I'm sorry [28:59] there's a mix of people in the room but [29:01] about half people in this room are [29:02] actual closers accounting sees people [29:04] closing the deals someone's hearing this [29:05] right now going this makes total sense [29:07] I've read this book or I'm going to read [29:08] this book it's amazing their managers [29:11] don't support the approach or aren't [29:13] familiar with it how can a seller get [29:15] around that if their leaders saying do [29:17] things this way which we've just [29:18] established might be the wrong way if [29:21] anybody could give me an example after I [29:23] say this I'm completely open to it but I [29:27] haven't run into a situation where a [29:29] manager was against this they may not [29:31] support it but it'd be really hard for a [29:34] manager to be against this so you just [29:36] give the manager whatever he or she [29:37] wants but you yourself know that I'm not [29:40] going to an advance deal past certain [29:42] stages until first I've completely got [29:44] the entire current state and I've [29:47] defined the current state I need to [29:49] Define it right now the way we Define it [29:52] is there are five elements what is the [29:54] physical and literal which is all the [29:56] facts what is the problem [29:58] what is the impact what is the root [30:00] cause so here someone said I saw them [30:02] say it's similar to spin it is in the [30:04] fact that it talks about situation [30:06] implications but what we do is we break [30:07] it down about eight more layers take a [30:09] look at how spin talks about situation [30:11] they don't differentiate between problem [30:13] impact and root cause they blend them [30:15] all together I run the risk of the [30:17] doctor selling to the root cause without [30:20] actually getting to the problem in the [30:21] impact and if you can't separate those [30:24] and see that flow you end up where we [30:26] started this whole webinar [30:28] so yes you as an individual you can go [30:31] get the future state which is the new [30:32] physical and literal the problem solved [30:35] the desired outcomes which is the [30:37] opposite of the impact the desired [30:38] outcomes so that's different than [30:40] implications and then the emotions and [30:42] then the potential Solutions which go [30:44] across move causes so go get all of that [30:46] and if the manager doesn't support you [30:48] so what like you can do this without a [30:51] manager you don't need a manager to [30:52] support it or not support it and there's [30:54] very little more than a manager is going [30:56] to ask you for that you wouldn't get [30:57] anyways like decision criteria buying [30:59] process Champion you can get those and [31:02] add this to it and you're good we were a [31:05] little bit like stock kid and I want to [31:07] for anyone who we can stay on for five [31:08] minutes extra to make up for it but I [31:10] also wanted to share what you you kind [31:11] of ahead of time you said you got the [31:12] Speed Bottle told me through it yes [31:14] what's this why would people care about [31:16] this okay so I love that you ask this [31:18] because I'm passionate about this and I [31:19] saw someone who came out with the speed [31:20] model so we learned after a while that [31:23] we would train all these organizations [31:25] they'd love it to death and then we come [31:26] back later and all those they would have [31:28] seen results and they were super happy I [31:30] was like you guys are like using half of [31:32] this it's you give someone a really [31:34] sweet like home entertainment system [31:37] that's all Wi-Fi enabled and do all this [31:39] shit and then you go in and they're like [31:40] using two features you know what I'm [31:42] saying and they love it Netflix and [31:44] that's it yeah they love it they go this [31:46] is so awesome but I'm like did you know [31:47] you can create a grocery list and then [31:48] when you get to the store it'll [31:49] automatically pop the oh I didn't know [31:51] that or I forgot how to use it so what [31:53] we realized is that people were using [31:55] Gap but they were not getting the most [31:56] out of it so I said down I said okay [31:58] what's going in on in sales [31:59] organizations that is preventing us from [32:03] improving win rates and what is [32:05] preventing us from getting quota and [32:06] what's preventing all the problems from [32:08] a organizational perspective not from a [32:11] skill set perspective and what I came up [32:13] with was this that sales organizations [32:15] have not recognized that there are three [32:17] distinct layers within their sales order [32:20] and that if you don't address all three [32:22] layers from an operational perspective [32:25] you will not maximize any of enablement [32:27] eff so this the idea was how sales [32:30] enement can prove their efforts so those [32:33] three layers are the skills layer sales [32:35] Ena has been crushing this but because [32:37] they didn't recognize the other two [32:38] layers they weren't getting the output [32:40] they wanted so the first layer is a [32:42] skills layers that's where all the [32:42] training comes involved that's where [32:44] your methodologies sit that's where your [32:46] qualification criteria sits it's all of [32:48] the Knowledge and Skills and development [32:50] of the people but just like in a Sports [32:54] organization it's not enough to sit [32:55] there and teach them all you have to [32:57] then take all that to game time and so [33:00] the next layer what we call is the [33:01] opportunity layer and that's where you [33:03] have to actually watch provide feedback [33:06] engage create processes embed tools that [33:10] see and test how the team is actually [33:14] doing this in real time against Real [33:17] clients and then measure the results in [33:20] real time against Real not just oh Tommy [33:23] had a good a good call with XYZ on gong [33:26] and that was it and we never actually [33:28] were able to tie that call to a close [33:30] rate we weren't able to tie them [33:32] together the opportunity layer teaches [33:34] you how to do that tie the scills to the [33:36] results and then the final one is the [33:38] forecasting layer how are we driving [33:40] what we call bid information the buyer [33:43] input data through the whole process and [33:46] taking it all the way up to the forecast [33:47] layer so that you can actually increase [33:50] the um the predictability of your [33:52] forecast because believe it or not your [33:54] skills layer impacts the forecasting [33:56] layer but if you haven't pulled that all [33:58] the way up through the forecasting layer [34:00] through what we call bid data you're [34:01] screwed so it's that's the high level it [34:04] takes all of that and drives bottom up [34:06] and top down so what's this this QR code [34:09] that I put on the screen it takes people [34:10] to the resources page on your website [34:13] with this speed model broken down what [34:15] what's in it is that what you just [34:16] described yes it's what it is how to [34:18] implement it why it matters and then it [34:22] links you to an assessment that allows [34:24] you to assess your organization on 115 [34:27] point [34:28] criteria based on each level so you can [34:30] assess your skills layer level you can [34:32] assess your opportunity layer level and [34:34] then you can assess your forecasting [34:35] layer and you can assess them all [34:37] independently and see where you sit from [34:39] an enablement [34:40] perspective we start a little bit late [34:43] here there are two questions and folks [34:44] if you have to jump off ke would you be [34:46] willing to take five minutes to have a [34:47] look cool mate What if after you dive so [34:51] deep into the problem and you look at [34:52] that root cause you find out that [34:54] potentially your medication as a doctor [34:57] is isn't the best fit to solve that root [35:00] course what are you going to do then [35:02] persuade them from buying you going to [35:03] wreck Point yes no you don't persuade [35:05] them you say listen I don't think we're [35:06] the best fit for you so let me give you [35:08] a recommendation and you send them to a [35:10] new doctor you send them to your buddy [35:12] John at uh competitor [35:16] 100,000% I love that okay super easy [35:19] answer on that one 100% do it now the [35:21] issue is a salesperson hears that and [35:23] says you want me to say no to customers [35:25] and that relates to the second question [35:27] someone left here Laur said I'm not a [35:28] sales person I'm a marketer that's okay [35:30] we forgive you completely agree with the [35:32] upfront about whether your product can [35:34] solve the prospect's problem or not but [35:37] sales people are incentivized to close [35:39] people surely turning them away despite [35:41] needing to achieve quota will add [35:45] pressure to them that will make them not [35:46] want to do that so here's the deal to me [35:51] this isn't a sales question this is a [35:52] character [35:54] question it's a character question so [35:57] just the other day one of my kids told [35:59] me a story about one of their [36:00] friends one of their friends was taking [36:03] a placement [36:04] test and they were afraid that if they [36:07] didn't pass a certain score in this [36:09] placement test that they might not be [36:11] able to keep their major or they' have [36:12] to take a bunch of [36:13] classes over again in college and when [36:16] they were telling me this story I was [36:17] like what' you say to your friend I told [36:19] them it was stupid but what their friend [36:20] did was they cheated they went on their [36:23] phone and looked up some of the answers [36:26] on the test [36:28] MH now basically that's the exact same [36:30] thing Laura just said to me that's a lot [36:32] of pressure because if they don't score [36:34] well on that test they may have to take [36:36] those classes over or they may not be [36:37] able to stay in their [36:39] major so like literally what the [36:42] question I heard was if I have under a [36:44] lot of pressure then I should not do the [36:46] right thing this is a Nob brainer for me [36:48] I got a lot of faults but doing the [36:50] fucking right thing is not one of them I [36:52] will do the right thing and so if you [36:54] can't buy my product or service because [36:55] it's not best for you I'm telling as [36:57] quickly as possible I'm apologizing I'm [36:59] trying to help you go to the right [37:01] person they'll hook you up and if you [37:03] don't think down the road that's going [37:05] to help me I got another one for you it [37:07] is absolutely going to help me it's is a [37:09] character issue if you ignore the fact [37:10] that you're not the best solution to [37:11] help them then they're even going to [37:13] find out themselves in which case you [37:14] wasted a bunch of time trying to sell to [37:16] them when they weren't going to buy from [37:17] you ever because there was a benefit [37:18] solution out it's relates the impact and [37:20] you tried to sell someone who doesn't [37:21] have a problem and doesn't have a big [37:22] enough impact they would just kick it [37:24] down the road until they say it's no [37:25] longer a priority it's no a priority of [37:26] things to come up right y so would you [37:28] rather keep those deals in your pipeline [37:30] and waste six months potentially of your [37:32] time trying to sell someone who was [37:33] never going to buy from the in the first [37:35] place or would you rather kick them out [37:37] of the pipeline maybe go find someone [37:38] else to speak to or focus on the people [37:39] who actually do have those problems and [37:41] doing a better job or once you sell it [37:42] you get your commission but it churns so [37:44] great you felt great you got it they [37:46] turn they're pissed at your company [37:48] right so great now it's a character [37:49] issue and I like some of the people [37:50] saying this a straight character we need [37:52] more character in values inside of sales [37:55] I'm tired of this my job is to sell it [37:57] cost no it's not your job's to help if [37:59] you can't help move on all right Kean [38:03] that's a great note to end on anyone who [38:05] stayed away past the end of the session [38:06] here hope you enjoyed this one again I'm [38:08] going to share this up in the screen [38:09] real quick so if you want to get that [38:10] speed or if you're a seller or a sales [38:12] leader great place to start scan that QR [38:15] code check go check that out and if you [38:16] haven't already please pick up this damn [38:17] book it' be well worth the read on [38:19] Audible it's what 15 bucks a month for [38:21] audible Keenan brings that same energy [38:23] that you just brought during this entire [38:24] sessh to that book amazing stuff I'm [38:27] glad that rushed it into that interview [38:28] process a little while ago all those [38:31] years back thanks you're good [38:32] interviewer dog you're one of the best [38:34] interviewers I've gone through so far [38:36] you know that I know the answer to a lot [38:37] of the questions I'm asking as well [38:38] right it's how you ask the questions it [38:40] what you built on you did a a really [38:43] good job you should be proud of yourself [38:44] you did a really good job and if that is [38:47] any incentive to register for any [38:48] upcoming shows of sell better at sell [38:50] better xxyz then go ahead and do that as [38:52] well thank you everyone for showing up [38:53] today thank you Keenan most of all and [38:55] thank you to our partner Zoom INF keep [38:57] it real [38:57] [Music]

===FILE=== vXeOmBPs7-k - Live Sales Pitch - Gap Sell Keenan 60 - Dont Default to a Product Pitch When You.txt
https://youtu.be/vXeOmBPs7-k
Live Sales Pitch - Gap Sell Keenan 60 - Don't Default to a Product Pitch When You Get Stuck!

[0:00] whoa I was going to go easy on you not [0:02] to hurt your feelings you [0:06] [Music] [0:10] it's just a feeling I've got like [0:12] something's about to happen but I don't [0:14] know what hola hey go get the money so [0:18] I'll go get it [0:19] [Music] [0:22] hey what's going on peeps it's one of my [0:26] favorite shows things to do welcome to [0:28] episode 60. [0:31] 60 of Gap cell Keenan for those of you [0:34] who know who are new and don't know Gap [0:37] cell Keenan's right engage a real sales [0:39] call from a real salesperson who wants [0:42] to sell me their product or service if [0:45] they can find a problem I have [0:48] I will buy if they cannot they have to [0:51] subject themselves to my coaching [0:54] yes so today we have Harry novik Harry [0:59] is from uh oh he'll tell you in a second [1:02] but what they sell is uh how do I [1:06] describe this it's a it's an AI coaching [1:08] platform so this is going to be [1:10] interesting I'm excited to have them [1:12] welcome Harry [1:15] hello and good morning Canada I'm so [1:18] excited to talk with you I love your [1:20] energy [1:21] well thank you sir thank you thank you [1:23] thank you so at AI [1:26] AI coaching platform I'm intrigued so [1:29] for people watching so they can [1:30] understand where we're at why don't you [1:32] take 30 seconds to a minute to tell [1:34] everybody about the product so at least [1:36] there's some context [1:38] perfect so I'm the founder and creator [1:41] of Rocky AI that is an AI coaching [1:45] platform and personal development app [1:47] designed to help young professionals and [1:50] professionals to develop their best in [1:52] the life and career through the power of [1:54] AI coaching [1:55] and the special thing is in this [1:58] platform we invite [2:00] people with fantastic contents to create [2:03] a digital twin [2:04] so that they can [2:07] reach a much bigger audience have an [2:10] entry products of their branded coaching [2:13] to much more people and can scale their [2:16] business [2:17] and this is what I want to talk with you [2:19] about today [2:21] okay [2:25] the floor is any questions in general [2:28] about how this works or the floor is [2:29] yours so I I mean before I I talk more [2:34] about the app [2:35] um and the possibilities that it brings [2:38] I want to understand more um of of your [2:41] business and your ideas how you want to [2:44] develop your business it gives me a [2:46] better understanding [2:47] um to bring you those key benefits of [2:50] this new technology and these new [2:51] opportunities [2:53] um but they of course must be relevant [2:55] for you so I know you are from the [2:58] training Consulting coaching field but [3:01] also so you work with your book [3:04] um you teach people how to coach my [3:06] question would be how do you do coaching [3:08] training today who are your audiences [3:11] and how do you deliver it [3:13] uh we deliver it via online on-demand [3:17] training so we have a an LMS [3:20] that we custom built [3:22] we do it virtually [3:24] through Zoom or teams [3:28] and then we do it in person [3:31] nice nice [3:34] um are your audiences individuals [3:36] companies both [3:38] companies 90 well so the virtual [3:43] training via Zoom is companies the [3:47] in-person meetings is companies and the [3:50] LMS on-demand training is companies and [3:53] individuals okay great I understand [3:57] um very good because here we have an [4:00] overlap I will come to that now when [4:03] when you coach those companies how many [4:05] people actually get your sales coaching [4:08] your communication coaching how many uh [4:11] how big are those groups per company [4:13] okay so be let's so out of Paris you [4:16] asked a really good question that was [4:18] training let's define this training is [4:22] what I just described so we train in [4:25] groups online I'm sorry in person and [4:28] virtually and then individuals we do [4:32] um on the LMS that's training we don't [4:35] coach one on one [4:38] um my I don't coach one on one and ASG [4:41] doesn't our individual uh certified [4:44] Consultants do do one-on-one coach [4:46] coaching [4:48] perfect perfect [4:50] um [4:52] leading me to another question [4:54] so how many people from those [4:57] organizations are actually coached or [4:59] trained outside the LMS [5:02] where your people are involved giving [5:05] them personalized Group Training how [5:07] many people are in there and we don't do [5:10] personalized [5:11] okay groups we don't do personalized so [5:14] after the training we have group [5:16] coaching into all of them have access to [5:18] group codes yes [5:20] so is it is it the whole company or is [5:22] it just a few leaders usually or should [5:26] I can't manage it'll be the whole sales [5:27] team yes [5:32] so [5:33] now where we come along [5:38] do you miss opportunities [5:40] um to train more than just the sales [5:43] teams in these organizations [5:45] um [5:47] we don't offer any other services for [5:49] people outside of the sales team so we [5:50] target just on the sales teams okay [5:52] great so sales team is your focus [5:55] um if the states into the training [5:57] what's with the follow-up you said you [5:59] have group coaching or Group Training [6:01] um yeah [6:02] yes what we have is what we call [6:05] retention packages so once somebody goes [6:07] through the training we provide either [6:09] deal coaching so deal is in a specific [6:12] opportunity so we get their sales team [6:14] together they send us a a deal that's [6:16] active in their pipeline or two or three [6:18] Deals that are active in their Pipeline [6:19] and then I go through a Deal review with [6:22] them on that or another type of one we [6:24] have role play and then another one we [6:26] have is called uh [6:28] um call coaching so we watch a Gong call [6:30] and then I'll critique or coach how they [6:32] do in the gong call so that's what the [6:34] post-training coaching looks like [6:37] uh you have pretty great uh processors [6:41] in place I can hear that [6:43] um where I want to come along now and [6:46] identify with you do you see chances [6:49] that you can partly automate that [6:52] providing an entry product providing a [6:54] follow-up product [6:55] nope [6:57] so first so so first things first right [7:00] you haven't found a problem so you asked [7:02] you asked some questions Harry and you [7:04] asked what I call physical little [7:06] questions and you ask some process [7:08] questions you asked how I do this and [7:10] how I do that then you switch to do I [7:12] see this is a self-diagnosing question [7:14] and everybody listening pay attention [7:16] this is why self-diagnosing questions [7:18] get you in trouble Harry said do I see [7:21] an opportunity to do things automated [7:24] right yeah I said no so now what do you [7:28] do right now you're stuck [7:31] right your job here is to ask enough [7:33] questions that gets me to a place where [7:36] I'm like wow that you know what I could [7:39] use something like this but you didn't [7:40] you asked some questions you found no [7:42] problem like a matter of fact not only [7:44] did you find not find a problem you [7:46] literally said to me wow it sounds like [7:48] you've got some really good processes so [7:50] you you acknowledge that everything is [7:52] going great and then wanted to sell me [7:53] something [7:54] right you need to go right so go back [7:57] find a problem here watch this what [7:59] problem do you think you solve [8:03] now you ask me [8:04] yeah yes [8:08] um [8:09] very often companies want to deliver a [8:13] training a country stop you say [8:16] everybody this is a lesson for everybody [8:18] so all you would listen pay attention [8:20] because all of you do this and it's [8:22] costing you sales I asked you what [8:25] problem are you trying to solve and you [8:26] started with most companies want to do [8:29] stop talking about what they want to do [8:33] why do they want to do it what is the [8:36] problem they're trying to solve what [8:39] problems do they have now [8:42] that they would want to do something [8:45] does that make sense Harry it must it [8:48] does make sense okay and the key problem [8:50] is they cannot spend the money for all [8:53] the employers who should receive for [8:56] example communication coaching for [8:58] example intercompany or sales coaching [9:01] they have to train the whole [9:02] organization sales is from top to bottom [9:05] to everyone [9:07] at least they invest into their sales [9:10] people and in their leaders but they [9:12] cannot afford human coaching human [9:15] training to be brought out [9:19] okay the problem you solve is the [9:21] scalability of the training is what [9:23] you're saying people people are unable [9:26] to train all other people because of [9:29] cost is that what you're saying is that [9:31] the problem it is it is oh that's a [9:34] small problem potentially okay so go [9:37] tell me more about tell me more about [9:38] that okay so why do you think why do you [9:41] think I should buy your product and [9:42] service what problems do you think I'm [9:43] struggling with you think I should [9:46] address [9:49] the the problem uh the problem versus [9:52] the opportunity is you have the content [9:55] you have the scalability with the brand [9:57] with the original content you have [9:59] already the clients [10:02] with AI we provide an opportunity he's [10:06] telling me the product though yeah you [10:08] can't you can't do that you keep trying [10:10] to tell me what you provide look yes [10:12] what problem would I what problem would [10:15] I be having that I would invest money [10:18] to pay this what problem am I having [10:21] you gotta link it to a problem everybody [10:23] listening you must find a problem that I [10:26] would want to solve [10:28] with your product or service [10:33] the problem that we can solve is that [10:35] you can serve more people at the same [10:37] time [10:37] okay [10:39] so what you're saying is the [10:42] problem I might have is growth so I'll [10:44] go with that everybody you guys are a [10:46] quiet group today I'm looking down here [10:47] quiet group no one's got anything to say [10:48] so all right so you're saying the [10:51] problem is growth and that growth is [10:53] because I can't serve as many people so [10:55] now you've got to dig into and and find [10:59] out if that's true you got to figure out [11:01] am I am I bumping into scaling issues [11:04] because I can't serve as many people [11:06] right so do it do I right so you should [11:09] be asking questions around that that's [11:11] like you need to find that problem for [11:13] me [11:14] absolutely I mean you got me on the [11:16] first point when I was um asking the [11:19] questions and asked you about your great [11:22] flow that you already have [11:25] um I I was going this direction uh [11:27] stopped it but [11:28] definitely so do you want to um in in [11:31] the opportunities of growing up where [11:34] are the limitations uh today for you [11:37] okay so I'll answer it but just [11:39] everybody paying it for your your [11:40] coaching that's a self-diagnosing [11:43] question I may not know what those [11:44] limitations are it as an expert you [11:47] should be able to ask questions [11:49] targeting them you might say things like [11:51] I'm making this up you may say things [11:53] like hey do you have clients who [11:56] um can't afford your training and and [11:59] really want it and so and you have no [12:02] way of delivering it because they can't [12:04] afford it right so that might be a thing [12:07] where right so I might say oh or you [12:09] might say hey I just told you I don't I [12:11] don't do one-on-one coaching you never [12:13] ask me why [12:15] you never asked me why I don't do [12:17] one-on-one coaching [12:19] um [12:22] so why don't you do one-on-one coaching [12:26] because I don't think it scales I don't [12:28] think it scales the amount of time it [12:30] takes to coach somebody one-on-one [12:32] versus what we can charge for that for [12:36] my time is it worth it [12:38] you understand it's not worth it whether [12:41] it's 150 an hour 200 or 500 or a [12:43] thousand dollars an hour right a [12:45] thousand dollars now most individuals [12:46] can't afford that and I'm not taking my [12:48] I'm not taking them on for that so [12:50] that's why I don't do personal coaching [12:52] that's why our [12:54] um certified trainers do the personal [12:55] coaching so this is this okay go [13:00] um and you're still uh the personal [13:03] trainers that you work with also have an [13:05] issue with uh delivering for the price [13:07] and the issue do they no not now [13:12] yes [13:13] no they don't know yes so if you could [13:18] um no if I could see you trying to sell [13:20] me again if I could that's future state [13:23] so Harry you are living in the future oh [13:26] my goodness Grace how are you living in [13:28] the future state Harry get out of the [13:30] future State start trying you have to [13:33] think about my business okay and if you [13:36] don't understand the piece of my [13:37] business you ask a question and then if [13:40] you understand it you start formulating [13:41] what this we might be able to help here [13:42] but maybe not here let me ask more [13:44] information you're like a doctor you [13:46] have to diagnose my world so that you [13:48] can explain why and how rocky.ai is [13:52] going to make my life better not look [13:54] I'm not in the world and most buyers out [13:56] in the world are buying a product like [13:58] uh like uh investing in a in a like [14:01] investing in a software application like [14:03] a like an investor like a VC I'm not [14:05] here to make it successful I have [14:07] business to do and so I've got to see [14:10] how your platform is going to integrate [14:12] into my business so I can drive more [14:14] revenue and it'll solve problems that I [14:17] can't solve right now so let's try this [14:19] again [14:20] okay sorry Laura little just only [14:23] because you're nice and you ask but you [14:24] got to get here on time people Rocky AI [14:27] is a is a Consulting is an AI Consulting [14:30] platform for those who are pants [14:33] coaching [14:35] inspirational coaching um platform [14:39] um so we talked about the coaching you [14:42] can't do it yourself [14:43] um you explained me why you have you [14:45] have uh coaching Consultants who do that [14:47] for you [14:49] um [14:49] is there any any struggle that you have [14:52] in this correlation or anything that you [14:55] would like to have differently right now [14:57] okay you so here's the you've done it [14:59] again you're asking me if there's [15:00] anything I want differently so I say no [15:02] now what do you do you're [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [15:05] I say no there's nothing I want to you [15:07] you you really have to learn to think [15:10] about my world so this is this is my [15:14] first piece of of real feedback to you [15:16] before I do it I'm gonna ask you a [15:17] question Harry Harry have you done any [15:20] research [15:21] on coaching how coaching is performed [15:25] how coaches do their job what the five [15:28] or seven elements of Ideal coaching is [15:32] um uh the psychology of coaching [15:35] um the outcomes of coaching if you've [15:37] done any research in that whole Space [15:41] absolutely I did yes [15:43] okay so the answer is yes then I want [15:46] you to stop thinking in those terms and [15:49] because if you did that my assumption is [15:51] that your your AI does that better or [15:55] there's something you're bringing to the [15:56] table that you built that makes that [15:58] coaching better right if it's simply [16:00] just scalability [16:02] then you might want to ask questions [16:04] about scalability but it provides better [16:06] coaching ask questions about the [16:08] coaching you're not getting into my [16:10] business you keep asking me do I think [16:11] do I think those are self-diagnosing [16:13] questions and considering I don't do [16:16] coaching [16:17] I I don't think I don't give any it has [16:20] no um it has no rent no space in my head [16:23] it's paying no rent oh my God I can't [16:25] talk it's taking no space I'm going to [16:27] tell you is no I I don't think that [16:30] because I don't think about it [16:33] you don't think about it [16:35] so [16:36] I asked you about the coaching uh Fields [16:41] I ask you about the training and how you [16:42] deliver it [16:44] now [16:45] we came from the sites that we have we [16:48] talked about the scalability we also [16:51] come from the site that we uh talk about [16:53] following up [16:55] um I initially asked about this [16:58] follow-up programs now are your [17:01] customers always happy after having [17:04] delivered or coaching training we are [17:06] your partners we are your program is the [17:08] progress there that's uh that you can [17:12] measure how do you measure that [17:14] yeah so we we survey all of our clients [17:17] at the end we do an MPS score and um our [17:21] clients are on the most part are [17:23] thrilled so yes we measured that survey [17:26] at the end and they're very happy yes [17:29] and uh how how can you ensure that they [17:33] do their homework after trainings [17:36] um what this uh in in this process how [17:38] does it work with you so so there's [17:41] there's no homework after the trainings [17:44] um and then as far as during the [17:45] trainings we have a platform that we [17:48] built that we deliver the training in so [17:50] that they have their own portal and each [17:52] person who goes through the training can [17:54] take notes and follow along in the [17:56] exercises and it lets us know [17:59] each participant in the training how far [18:02] they got what notes they took What notes [18:04] they didn't take what exercises they [18:06] finished et cetera and that's all built [18:07] into the training platform we use [18:10] the the training platform is um created [18:13] by yourself you said how did you do that [18:15] it's customized to us it's a third party [18:17] but we customize it to our business so [18:20] yes great so if you come to a training [18:22] with us whether in person or not you [18:24] pull out your laptop you're given a [18:26] login you log into your own portal [18:27] you'll find the training materials right [18:29] in front of you and then you've you [18:31] follow along the training and you write [18:32] down all the exercise you do it all in [18:34] that portal and then we can go in and [18:36] click on you and I can see seven out of [18:37] eight modules completed or nine out of [18:39] 10 modules completed [18:40] did you had also patients where [18:42] customers ask for improvement or change [18:45] or for a different interaction with that [18:48] now [18:49] this uh did you have this situation from [18:53] any of your team members who asked for a [18:55] different method of our approaches [18:58] now [19:01] so in in in [19:04] from from the companies did you had [19:06] companies that you could not serve but [19:09] wanted to to situations as price or [19:13] systematics [19:14] no [19:18] and do you search any ways to provide [19:21] um more cost sensitive products to new [19:24] audiences [19:25] so yeah so so with the reason we built [19:29] I'm throwing you a bone here because [19:30] you're you're dying Harry you're dying [19:33] so I'm gonna throw you a bone the reason [19:35] we created the online training is we [19:37] would get a lot of requests from people [19:38] that they want to do the training and [19:40] they just didn't have enough like we [19:42] have a minimum mixing right a minimum [19:44] pricing and outside of that minimum [19:46] pricing uh a lot of companies said they [19:48] couldn't afford it or individuals said [19:50] they couldn't afford it right which we [19:51] understood so that's how we built the [19:53] online training so if you're a sales [19:54] team of five or three or four and you [19:56] don't want to you know pay our minimum [19:58] pricing you can put your team through [20:00] the online training now where is uh Omar [20:03] Rojas asked a great question you should [20:06] help him help yourself he said do you [20:08] ever your clients ask for one-on-win [20:09] coaching and how many do so clients do I [20:13] don't know how many I mean how often or [20:15] how many but people do ask for [20:16] one-on-one training once in a while and [20:18] we either turn them down or we send them [20:20] to our certified trainers but [20:22] would we like or would I like to be able [20:25] to provide individual coaching to more [20:27] people and more cost in a cost-effective [20:29] way absolutely that would be interesting [20:30] because that would fill a hole the [20:33] problem we have is we can't provide [20:35] one-on-one coaching [20:37] yes because it does this guy I told you [20:39] that before and you didn't dig into it I [20:41] don't know how you missed that [20:44] um [20:45] hold on yes sorry Brandon rothfuss so [20:48] good observation Brandon says asking a [20:50] lot of clothes any questions not putting [20:52] the pressure on Keenan uh but instead on [20:55] himself so everybody pay attention I [20:57] don't mind closed any questions but you [20:58] got to use them strategically I don't [21:00] subscribe to the old school approaches [21:02] never ask closer to questions I just [21:04] think that's silly but I do subscribe to [21:07] them if you're if they're very purposely [21:09] used but if you don't use them right [21:12] they're going to get you in trouble so [21:13] good observation Brendan but people in [21:16] general don't don't avoid closing any [21:18] questions just know why you're using [21:20] them and why you want a yes or a no so [21:22] with that um uh keep going what's your [21:24] next question [21:26] yes we will with the [21:28] um opportunities uh you have to turn [21:31] down one-on-one coaching for people who [21:34] would like to you cannot uh do that [21:37] um [21:40] now so so what would be the price [21:44] point that [21:47] um would work for you delivering [21:49] something [21:51] um for them that that's interesting [21:53] um to reach those people without you [21:55] being actually involved physically [21:59] I I don't know that would that would [22:01] depend on the infrastructure that I used [22:03] to do it so I don't have an answer for [22:05] that question I don't know [22:07] yes [22:08] um so [22:10] with that in mind [22:13] um [22:15] all right so so here here's my feedback [22:17] to you Harry [22:18] you don't you you don't do a very good [22:22] job of understanding my business or I'd [22:25] even say the business of coaching so if [22:28] you have done a lot of [22:29] [Music] [22:29] um [22:30] research on coaching good for you but [22:34] you're not translating into the business [22:36] world so what I told you that we built [22:40] this online training [22:42] because people were asking us to do the [22:44] training one-on-one [22:46] and we don't do training one-on-one we [22:48] have we have a corporate price with a [22:50] minimum and then after that based on per [22:52] users it goes Higher and Higher and we [22:54] were pricing out [22:56] a large swath of the market right so we [22:59] said if you're an individual wants to go [23:01] to training or your small company wants [23:02] to do the training just do our online [23:03] training [23:05] what do you think happens after that [23:10] after the trainings [23:12] but but you uh described me about the [23:16] the LMS platform and similar and what [23:19] would you have in place [23:20] so you're offering you have discovered [23:23] yeah so someone someone buys the LMS [23:25] training online they go through it what [23:27] do you think happens after that [23:31] at some point they use it or they stop [23:33] using it [23:34] okay so that yeah so they get all the [23:36] way through the train so this is my [23:38] point you're not even listening to what [23:40] I tell you because you have chances to [23:42] potentially find and not like you like [23:43] opportunity to find a problem that I [23:46] have [23:47] and you completely missed it so I'm [23:49] literally selling you for you now [23:51] everybody paying attention to this it [23:53] blows my mind how people can even sell [23:54] their own [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you come on this [23:56] show and I gotta tell you how to sell [23:58] your own stuff to me so there's a [24:01] potential opportunity where when my [24:04] people are done with that online [24:05] training they take it especially the [24:07] people who self-subscribe right they so [24:09] you should have asked this question okay [24:11] you have the online training how many [24:13] businesses and how many people I would [24:15] say about 65 or 70 percent are people so [24:18] when you or individuals I should say [24:20] individuals So when you say individuals [24:21] how do they find you and I say I don't [24:23] know most of them find us through uh [24:25] Google ads or they do it through [24:26] searches or something like that [24:28] et cetera and then so what do they do is [24:29] it self sign up yes it's self sign up oh [24:31] okay so they sign up and then they go [24:33] through the training could you tell me [24:34] about the training yes it's nine modules [24:37] it breaks down all the steps of Gap [24:39] selling it's extremely interactive it's [24:40] choose your own journey and so it's [24:42] almost like being me within a classroom [24:44] and then when then you should say okay [24:45] so when they're done then what happens [24:47] well when they're done that's it they're [24:49] done and then come back anytime and they [24:51] can review the stuff and then you can [24:52] say well do you do you provide any [24:54] coaching for them when they're done we [24:55] say nope not really then you can say do [24:57] any of them even ask for coaching and [24:58] say I don't think so they just [24:59] disappeared in ether and then you say so [25:01] wait it seems to me that if you could [25:04] capture these people and keep them [25:06] around longer and offer them additional [25:08] coaching you could drive more Revenue [25:10] there that's oh that's an interesting [25:11] point and then you can say well how many [25:13] people [25:15] um in a year sign up and I would say oh [25:16] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] I would say about 500 probably I [25:19] think about 500 just a thousand people [25:21] sign up for this on their own a year and [25:23] then you'd say wow okay so if you could [25:25] add an additional value on the back end [25:28] do coaching to help them make it stick [25:30] that could be an additional half million [25:33] million million dollars in Revenue [25:34] that's a good point didn't think about [25:36] that how many like you missed all of [25:39] that that's all of that you missed [25:41] that's your [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] job not mine [25:43] absolutely no you're selling my product [25:45] yes [25:46] right and I don't even know that this [25:49] could solve that but based on what [25:50] you're telling me and basically what are [25:52] the questions you've asked and what you [25:53] told me you do that seems like a logical [25:55] at least place to start [25:57] right now it doesn't mean you're gonna [25:59] make the sale but it's a logical place [26:01] to start right I mean I just I don't [26:04] think you understand Harry [26:07] how your product or service fits into [26:11] the business you need to understand the [26:13] business side way way way way more so [26:16] it's been 27 minutes [26:18] I had to break down the whole thing for [26:19] you so I'll give you a five more minutes [26:22] to ask some different questions or to [26:24] see if you can get this back on track [26:28] I I mean you already gave me a fantastic [26:31] sales pitch about uh these cases all of [26:34] these answers that you gave in this [26:36] scenario are they true [26:37] yes yeah [26:41] so [26:44] um to complete this five minutes [26:47] um with this digital interaction of them [26:51] uh making them connected with your [26:53] system making them connected with your [26:55] content reaching them out again [26:59] um staying in line [27:01] um would and what kind of investment [27:04] would be for you worth or for having [27:07] this too low opportunity [27:09] I have no [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] idea I have no idea [27:12] okay so here's my next piece of advice [27:14] to you Harry go get a salesperson you're [27:16] a nice guy you can't [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] sell you're [27:19] like you're in trouble [27:21] if you can't you either better learn how [27:23] to sell pretty quick so one of the [27:24] things you're going to get for being on [27:25] the show is is free access to the online [27:28] training so congratulations everybody on [27:31] the show gets free access to Gap selling [27:34] online training so the answer is you [27:37] need to watch that and you need to get [27:39] better and I'm not trying to be rough [27:40] but I gave you all that stuff and the [27:42] first question you asked me is what is [27:43] it worth to me [27:45] gosh so I don't know so this is I'm [27:48] going to ask you questions now okay [27:49] because I I don't think it's going to go [27:51] anywhere [27:54] um when you say coaching and you say AI [27:58] walk me through what you mean because [28:01] coaching to me is very asynchronous and [28:03] coaching to me is very reactive so I [28:05] don't know how to trust that they would [28:07] be coaching in the proper way [28:10] yes so so the coaching that we provide [28:13] via the if is an interactive five [28:17] minutes daily coaching that is built [28:20] upon your original content it's your [28:22] questions it's your topic it's your [28:25] inspiration people will answer your [28:28] questions to make them think people will [28:31] ask the AI to get your responders and [28:34] answers back in an interactive approach [28:37] it's um and forward pushing way of [28:40] making people think with the system but [28:42] also it's an interactive way of a new [28:44] way of learning management system all [28:47] together it increases very highly no I [28:50] don't know stop stop don't tell me one [28:52] more time do not [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] tell me what it [28:54] does sorry I you are I stop telling me [28:58] what you think it does what I just want [29:00] to know the facts right now I want to [29:02] know how it works because every time you [29:04] drift off into oh and it does this and [29:06] it this it's all [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] it's all [29:09] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] right now because you're are [29:10] unable to attach it to a problem you're [29:13] unable to understand how I coach so it's [29:15] just like I don't even know the words [29:17] Harry it's it's it's [29:19] garbage it's gonna stop doing that stay [29:23] with me in okay so so how does the [29:26] coaching work right like [29:29] does do I just does this person ask a [29:31] question is that how they do it they [29:33] just ask questions [29:34] both sides both sides the AI ask the [29:37] person questions and then it's following [29:39] up on the response question answer [29:41] question answer [29:43] okay and so and and so how does a topic [29:45] or subject how is a topic or subject uh [29:48] created or started so how does the AI [29:50] even know where that person would want [29:52] to start being coached [29:54] in in the coaching app the person is [29:57] setting up a future self and development [29:59] plan key topics of where the person [30:02] wants to improve their assessments [30:04] inside the app to set this up and once [30:07] the plan is set the daily micro coaching [30:11] comes in place based on topics set [30:16] okay so what you're saying is uh [30:19] the person okay watch what I do here [30:22] this is what everybody this is for [30:23] everybody not just Harry [30:25] you want to go back to my world so what [30:28] you're saying I'm doing this for you so [30:29] what you're saying is in my world and [30:30] this is how you should have said in your [30:32] world Keenan when somebody completes the [30:35] online training [30:37] they could set up their own coaching [30:40] what do you want to call coaching what [30:42] coaching plan plan coach who I like that [30:45] they could set their own coaching plan [30:46] and then they could pick which areas of [30:49] the training they felt [30:51] weren't the most they weren't the most [30:53] comfortable with or want support with [30:55] and so therefore by uh building that [30:59] plan in the AI will start working with [31:02] them to strengthen their retention of [31:05] those areas they were least comfortable [31:08] very good description that's correct you [31:11] understood it rightly yes and this is [31:14] horrible [31:17] of our existing customers they use it [31:20] after [31:22] trainings after coaching [31:25] people have the plan and then they can [31:27] continue they don't lose them they also [31:30] ensure that they retain [31:32] um to keep them [31:35] first of all to ensure that the training [31:37] will stick and people change but also [31:39] that they come back to the services [31:42] so okay so this is intriguing and God [31:46] even you are a horrible salesperson even [31:48] work I'm sorry but this is intriguing so [31:51] when I told you that about our processes [31:54] of people everybody coming and listening [31:56] to me do a um a uh uh Deal review or [32:01] come and listening to do a uh call [32:03] coaching [32:04] why didn't you dig in there and why [32:06] don't you say okay so when people come I [32:09] can't tell what my failure was I had a [32:11] plan in my mind and I tried to bring you [32:14] there [32:15] instead of truly listening [32:18] yes I I told every person this is show [32:22] 60 not show one not show seven not show [32:25] nine show 60 and I gotta say probably in [32:28] half of them I say you've got to be [32:29] listening you got to be you you have to [32:32] diagnose me imagine a doctor I even said [32:35] to you I said you gotta be like a doctor [32:36] and diagnose imagine you're a doctor and [32:38] diagnosing to get me to tell you what [32:40] you want the doctor wants you to hear [32:43] not what's actually going on with you [32:46] because if you do what you did people [32:47] buy things or betting worse and a doctor [32:49] they take drugs they don't [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] need [32:51] and they die [32:53] you're doing the same thing you try to [32:55] get me to go somewhere and I'm into [32:56] buying a product or not buying a product [32:58] I don't need or not buying a product I [33:00] do need [33:01] everybody paying attention to this [33:03] please cut this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] house what sales [33:05] people do every freaking day and it [33:07] drives me crazy and it costs sales with [33:10] billions of dollars it undermines good [33:13] opportunities for buyers and undermines [33:15] good opportunities for sales people cut [33:16] it out cut it out so all right here's [33:19] the deal [33:20] I'm intrigued [33:25] because I think there is actually [33:28] something that this could do that could [33:31] increase the value of the training [33:34] within side of ASG and GAP selling [33:38] um [33:39] but there's a whole bunch of questions I [33:41] have about its Effectiveness and its [33:44] ability to properly coach [33:46] and I'm also concerned to be straight [33:48] out of the gate I'm also concerned [33:50] um [33:51] with [33:52] the setup [33:54] I am very concerned about the setup I we [33:57] do not have the time to basically write [34:00] our entire training program all over [34:02] again to fit inside your AI just don't [34:05] have that time so yes this yeah [34:08] I'm sorry uh [34:11] um one service that we provide is [34:13] actually because you have it written in [34:15] the books and the in the training we do [34:17] this as a service for our clients you [34:20] basically pass us over your contents we [34:22] create the AI version because we also [34:25] know how the AI version has to work the [34:27] people [34:28] uh use it in an interactive AI way [34:32] that's a service we provide [34:34] okay so this is what I'm willing to do [34:37] um I am willing to give you another [34:39] meeting [34:41] okay [34:42] um and talk more about [34:46] how this might [34:48] complement our existing LMS and drive [34:50] additional value for the people who go [34:52] through that because we have that whole [34:53] self-service engine so someone shows up [34:55] they buy it they go through it then they [34:57] don't get any additional coaching I [34:58] think that could be huge value and [35:00] provide substantial new Revenue stream [35:01] for us as well as more value to the to [35:04] the um [35:05] to the sales person and differentiates [35:07] from the market in the from the initial [35:11] engagement with us all the way to the [35:13] back end and the retention so I am [35:15] intrigued you got yourself a second [35:16] meeting no let me rephrase that I had to [35:19] get you the second meeting and so [35:20] everybody this is what happens in shitty [35:23] sales Worlds the salesperson [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up [35:25] but the buyer somehow is able to [35:28] navigate through the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] that the [35:29] salesperson threw out and think there's [35:31] something interesting in there and keep [35:33] this thing going and then what happens [35:34] is either they buy and the salesperson [35:37] basically took an order or they don't [35:39] buy but they ended up being in the [35:41] pipeline for one two three months longer [35:43] than they needed to be is they were [35:45] processing what the salesperson was [35:46] saying they finally see it or they get [35:48] there they got on you this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] and they [35:49] move on [35:50] like that's not how you sell [35:53] so you got lucky Harry good for you for [35:56] coming on you got lucky and we'll get [35:58] into second meeting with you so reach [36:00] out to to Brady and myself I think you [36:02] have our emails correct [36:04] yes perfect thank you and I also [36:08] appreciate all your advices [36:10] um um and what you said absolutely on [36:12] the point [36:13] I confess on these aspects [36:17] all right man good for you you you're [36:19] very coachable and you withstood the [36:21] heat you withstood the heat so thank you [36:24] my man I appreciate it [36:26] um [36:27] uh so with that thank you get get back [36:30] with us and we'll go from there all [36:32] right my man [36:34] thank you [36:36] yeah all right for the rest of you the [36:39] rest of you uh Gap song 60. I hope you [36:43] guys got some good stuff out of that [36:45] because he made some serious mistakes [36:47] Harry Harry who's your sales leader how [36:49] is he is she coaching you Kimberly uh I [36:53] don't think he has one he's the founder [36:54] so [36:56] um he doesn't have one so listen if you [36:59] have a product of service that you think [37:01] I or ASG needs hit us up and come on the [37:05] Gap cell can and if you find a problem [37:08] we have we will buy we have bought from [37:11] people before but if not you got to [37:13] withstand the coaching of me so that [37:15] everybody I hope you learned something [37:17] today thanks for joining us at Gap cell [37:19] Keenan number 60 and until next to oh [37:22] and our boy is going to get a free if [37:24] you'll get a free subscription to Gap so [37:27] Keenan online training too look at that [37:29] you get that too I should get the script [37:30] and read this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] right but you have to [37:33] subscribe to that so Harry's gonna get [37:35] that and maybe that will help his sales [37:38] because they need it need it all right [37:40] everybody with that thanks again [37:42] peace I'm out [37:47] all I hear go get the money so I'll go [37:50] get it get it

===FILE=== w4HEbzFN-Do - Understanding SPIN Selling Gap Selling and The Challenger Sale A Sales Methodolo.txt
https://youtu.be/w4HEbzFN-Do
Understanding SPIN Selling, Gap Selling, and The Challenger Sale： A Sales Methodologies Breakdown

[0:00] what's up all my wonderful sales people [0:02] in this video today we're going to talk [0:04] about three very Monumental and iconic [0:08] sales books and methodologies and they [0:12] are spin selling Gap selling and the [0:15] Challenger cell so we will touch briefly [0:17] on how they are alike then we will cover [0:19] how they're different and from there we [0:21] will get into a more detailed breakdown [0:25] of each of the methodologies although we [0:27] would love for you to watch the video [0:29] all the way through through timestamps [0:31] will be in the description for you to [0:33] skip ahead to a part that's most [0:35] suitable for you so how are they alike [0:38] well very customer Centric right so [0:41] consultative approach to really uncover [0:44] what's going on with the customer what [0:46] do they actually need as opposed to what [0:50] the salesperson is trying to push off on [0:53] them each approach is more fact driven [0:56] as opposed to assumption so asking the [0:59] question questions identifying the [1:01] problem and really offering a solution [1:05] that you do understand the customer [1:07] actually needs as opposed to presenting [1:11] a whole bunch of different things [1:12] throwing spaghetti at the wall and [1:15] hoping that something sticks so overall [1:17] they all three deal with real problem [1:20] solving how are they different well hm [1:23] that's sometimes it's challenging for me [1:25] to really break down the actual [1:28] differences but just starting off with [1:29] with spin selling well spin selling is [1:32] really more about being an investigator [1:35] or being someone who really understands [1:38] a question flow in question format to [1:42] lead the customer in front of you to [1:44] come up with their own conclusion as to [1:48] what the actual problems are that [1:49] they're dealing with and what solution [1:52] may actually help them Gap selling is [1:55] all about the Gap right so how can you [1:59] through consultation take that itty [2:02] bitty tiny crack of a problem and then [2:05] cause it to expand into a canyon of [2:08] issues that need to be resolved so it's [2:11] all about identifying the current state [2:14] of where a customer is at and then you [2:17] and the customer both being able to [2:20] understand what that future state is and [2:23] here is the gap and we are going to help [2:26] you get there that essentially is what [2:29] the methodology Gap selling is about and [2:31] the Challenger sale it's all about [2:34] challenging the customer n but really a [2:37] big difference with the Challenger sale [2:38] is that you are bringing something of [2:42] value to the customer something along [2:45] the lines of teaching them something [2:47] that they have not thought about before [2:49] bringing a reframe of thought a problem [2:52] that maybe they just did not realize was [2:55] as important and you're essentially [2:58] you're bringing new information new [3:00] value as a trusted advisor to go along [3:04] with the actual consultation and [3:06] Discovery process and now let's get into [3:08] the breakdown first up spin selling by [3:11] Neil rackam published in I believe [3:14] 1988 Google it make sure that I'm right [3:17] and this book specializes in four types [3:20] of questions that you will Implement in [3:23] your consultative approach and I will [3:25] give actual examples of each one of them [3:28] the first line of questioning would be [3:30] situation questions which is what the S [3:33] stands for in spin my $5 word of how I [3:36] coin this as context questions right [3:39] you're just looking to understand the [3:42] actual frame of the situation the facts [3:45] about the company before you start [3:47] getting into the actual problem [3:49] questions and keep in mind the four [3:51] types of questioning is not always in [3:53] like this actual chronological order [3:56] they could be out of order back and [3:58] forth but as you dive into to [4:00] understanding what spin selling is if [4:02] you choose to then you will have more [4:04] context to that example question how [4:06] many people are currently involved in [4:09] managing your supply chain another [4:11] example what tools are you using to [4:13] monitor your production timelines [4:16] another question can you walk me through [4:18] your current approval process for [4:21] purchases so again we're not asking [4:23] about the problem we're not asking about [4:26] how big the problem is we just want to [4:28] know what is is the actual situation the [4:31] next type of question is problem [4:34] questions and you guessed it the [4:36] objective of these questions is to cause [4:39] the customer to reflect on what problems [4:41] are actually going on example questions [4:44] would be what challenges have you faced [4:47] with manual inventory tracking are there [4:50] any recurring issues in your customer [4:53] service operations how often do you [4:56] experience downtime with your current [4:58] system the object Ive under problem [5:01] questions is really to uncover the [5:04] problem as we move over to the eye that [5:07] stands for implication so implication [5:11] questions is really looking to identify [5:14] what is that problem actually causing [5:17] how is it impacting you an example would [5:19] be what impact does that downtime have [5:22] on your ability to meet customer demands [5:25] how does this problem affect your [5:27] overall production cost what happen to [5:30] project timelines when You Face [5:32] unexpected delays the customer needs to [5:35] understand how exactly are these [5:38] problems affecting their current [5:40] situation and the last type of question [5:43] is need payoff questions these questions [5:46] are designed to assist the customer in [5:50] thinking about what it would be like to [5:52] have that problem go away and remember [5:55] the objective here is to ask the [5:57] questions for the customer to be able to [6:00] answer that as opposed to you just [6:02] telling them example how would it help [6:05] if you could reduce downtime by 25% what [6:08] would be the benefit of streamlining [6:11] your approval process how much would you [6:14] save if you could cut manual errors in [6:17] half when the customer has now [6:20] understood and vocalized the problem the [6:23] implications of those problems be sure [6:25] to ask the need payoff question so that [6:28] the customer can then vote localize what [6:30] would be the benefit of them actually [6:33] having the problem solved Gap selling by [6:36] Keenan I don't know his last name [6:39] published about three decades after spin [6:42] selling in [6:43] 2018 so Gap selling has a number of [6:46] detailed components beyond what is [6:50] considered just current state and future [6:52] state right so it's really about being [6:56] well researched before you ever even [6:59] approach [7:00] your customer or Prospect so even on the [7:03] prospecting side the Gap selling [7:05] methodology is applied and then in the [7:08] actual Discovery the Gap selling [7:11] methodology is applied there's a section [7:13] in the book called know the problem [7:16] first call second now I actually use [7:19] this chart which you probably won't be [7:21] able to [7:22] see but the chart is about being able to [7:25] outline potential problems that the [7:28] prospect would be facing as well as the [7:31] impact to the organization and things [7:34] that you know about the problem you want [7:36] to be able to list these out and already [7:38] have an understanding because the way [7:40] that you question will actually go down [7:43] a directed Trail to lead them to [7:46] understanding what type of problem [7:48] they're in and what this problem is [7:50] actually causing the ideal here is to [7:53] know a lot of this information ahead of [7:56] time and use this as your guide [8:00] in the conversation to really uncover [8:02] the details of what's going on and to [8:05] cause the customer to actually come to [8:08] that understanding as well by the time [8:10] you actually present a demo to the [8:12] customer or get into offering the [8:14] solution you should know exactly what is [8:18] going on at this point there is no [8:20] guessing involved it's fairly tedious [8:22] work upfront but it can be very [8:24] rewarding on the back end and now the [8:27] Challenger sale for some reason you just [8:29] got to say it like that written in 2011 [8:32] by Matthew Dixon and Brent Adamson so [8:35] through research this book introduces [8:37] five sales personas with the Challenger [8:40] being the Persona that the book is [8:42] obviously about those personas are the [8:45] hard worker the Challenger the [8:47] relationship Builder the lone wolf and [8:50] the reactive Problem Solver although [8:52] this methodology covers much more three [8:55] approaches that the book covers is one [8:58] teaching two tailor and three take [9:02] control according to the authors and [9:04] their research a good salesperson has [9:07] the ability to teach a customer or [9:09] Prospect new insights that will cause [9:13] them to view their problem in a [9:15] different way example questions would be [9:17] many companies in your sector are [9:20] overpaying for shipping by not [9:22] leveraging third- party analytics did [9:24] you know that or how about your [9:26] competitors are using automated systems [9:29] to increase order fulfillment by 20% [9:32] have you considered this it's about [9:34] doing your homework and bringing these [9:36] insights into the conversation another [9:39] thing that good sales people do really [9:42] good is tailoring these needs to fit the [9:46] actual customer situation you must be [9:49] able to tailor your message to the [9:53] audience that's in front of you that's [9:55] the business as well as even the [9:57] individual who's sitting in front of you [9:59] an example question would be given your [10:02] high order volume switching to an [10:05] automated system could cut your shipping [10:06] cost by 15% annually or for a company [10:10] with your growth rate you could likely [10:12] save about $30,000 a year by [10:15] implementing this automated tax [10:17] deduction system and another thing that [10:20] a challenger salesperson can do well is [10:22] take control listen you're signing today [10:25] maybe not exactly like that a challenger [10:27] salesperson they just don't shy away [10:29] from from pushing a customer or Prospect [10:31] to look at their situation in a [10:33] different light they challenge their [10:35] assumptions and take control to guide [10:38] the conversation to a solution an [10:40] example would be I understand you've [10:42] used this system for years but sticking [10:44] with it could limit your scalability [10:46] let's look at why switching now is [10:49] crucial or if you don't address this [10:51] issue you're likely to face significant [10:54] production bottlenecks in the next 6 [10:56] months the Challenger is a sales persona [10:59] that was uncovered through research well [11:02] I've had the opportunity to read all [11:04] three of these books and I have [11:06] thoroughly thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed [11:08] all three of them should I or You Be [11:11] implementing all of them into your sales [11:13] approach that's not really for me to say [11:15] of course feel free to follow their [11:17] platforms for more detailed information [11:19] on these methodologies if you haven't [11:21] read any of the books which one do you [11:23] plan on picking up first drop that in [11:25] the comments see you on the next video

===FILE=== xJcMS6EtIdU - Live Sales Pitch - Gap Sell Keenan 63 - Consultative Selling and Listening.txt
https://youtu.be/xJcMS6EtIdU
Live Sales Pitch - Gap Sell Keenan 63 - Consultative Selling and Listening

[0:00] look I was going to go easy on you not [0:02] to hurt your feelings you [0:05] to me I'm [0:11] I'm a feeling I've got like something's [0:13] about to happen but I don't know what [0:15] all I hear go get the money so I'll go [0:18] get it get it hate means I do something [0:20] right right what's up peeps [0:23] welcome [0:25] to Gap cell Keenan 63. [0:29] and already I'm nervous because it looks [0:31] like [0:32] we have a bad connection I don't like [0:34] this [0:36] we'll see what happens but [0:39] wait [0:40] okay it looks good for you guys so [0:42] anyways all right look [0:43] for those of you don't know gab song is [0:45] a real live sales call it is a real [0:48] salesperson [0:49] who has a real product works for a real [0:51] company and he or she is trying to sell [0:54] that product or service to me or as [0:57] Chief so with that being said [1:01] we're gonna see if my man Matt [1:04] Fogerty like the singer and he's got a [1:06] beard and everything so maybe this dude [1:08] actually like is related to Fogerty but [1:11] anyways Matt's gonna try to sell us [1:14] Welcome Matt [1:17] thank you Keenan thank you for uh having [1:20] me on and really excited about the [1:22] opportunity unfortunately there is uh no [1:24] relation between myself and the Credence [1:27] Clearwater Revival John but still [1:29] appreciate the music [1:31] all right baby all right good good wait [1:33] you're a little young to be appreciating [1:34] his music dog like that's [1:37] I'm an old soul if you will you know [1:40] that's rack you know a little Bebop the [1:44] 50s you know Frankie Valley all that [1:46] good stuff it's going way back to [1:48] Frankie Valley okay that is old yeah [1:51] that's going way back okay all right all [1:55] right man but welcome to Gap selling [1:57] um [1:58] sounds like you think you got something [2:00] we need so I'll give you [2:02] 30 seconds a minute to tell the audience [2:05] what it is that you sell the company so [2:08] at least we have context and then the [2:10] floor is yours [2:12] for sure so uh yeah work for click data [2:16] um and what we are is a end-to-end [2:18] cloud-based business intelligence and [2:20] data management platform uh work with [2:23] all different types of businesses and [2:26] our goal is really to help businesses [2:29] make decisions and manipulate their data [2:31] in a way that they can visualize it and [2:34] drive actionable insights and a lot of [2:36] problems is we'll get into with data [2:39] processing is people are working with [2:40] bad data and then making bad decisions [2:42] off of that data that's costing a lot of [2:44] companies Revenue [2:46] all right [2:47] won't take away baby the floor is yours [2:50] all right so I wanted to I typically [2:53] around these discoveries I try to get to [2:54] know you get to know your company a [2:55] little bit [2:56] did we lose Keenan I don't know he's off [2:58] on my screen [3:00] I have no way to tell [3:02] um [3:03] so I'm just gonna keep going [3:05] so [3:08] what uh [3:12] what we do is whatever but however on [3:15] Discovery get to know you get to know [3:17] your company the current situation [3:20] um obviously and then you know get into [3:22] your biggest problems but [3:24] since it doesn't appear that I can ask [3:25] you questions right now and I appear to [3:27] be talking just to the audience [3:29] I'll give the audience this quote which [3:32] I think they'll appreciate [3:34] um is Judge a man by his questions [3:36] rather than his answers [3:38] Voltaire a little Philosophy for you [3:40] folks out there [3:42] um [3:44] and I know it appears that we've lost [3:46] Keenan [3:47] so I'm not really sure what to do [3:55] oh [3:57] foreign [4:06] I can talk to you guys about philosophy [4:08] whatever you want you know we'll get [4:10] back we'll get back after it [4:15] you there all right I'm back [4:19] it's really making it hard on me huh I [4:21] guess so I don't know what happened [4:24] yeah you did a good job I'm watching you [4:26] here you was still on the whole time so [4:28] you did good work to hang in there dude [4:30] I mean I figured my end didn't [4:32] disconnect so the people were still [4:34] watching all right let's do it let's do [4:37] it let's do it okay so pick up we left [4:39] off or start again so I got all the [4:41] stuff [4:44] because anyway I'm getting a feedback [4:45] loop with the show not anymore you're [4:48] not beautiful [4:49] um so anyways get to know you your [4:51] company a little bit so obviously I've [4:53] read your book your background so my [4:55] real question is how did you go from Jim [4:58] Matthew Keenan to share Beyonce Keenan [5:01] you know this person is larger than life [5:03] sales personality that we all know and [5:05] love [5:06] that's an interesting first question [5:09] okay thank you that's a very so what [5:12] what is your objective of that first [5:14] question [5:15] get to know you a little better that's [5:17] not directionally related to my company [5:19] I have a first question related to that [5:20] if you want me to skip on past okay so [5:22] so do you [5:24] do you do that on your sales calls [5:27] typically yeah insane [5:31] really yeah I don't I don't know like [5:33] look I know you could have met you and [5:35] you're coming on you so I want to be [5:36] nice to you but no I don't want someone [5:38] asking me personal questions or trying [5:39] to do anything that's remotely quote [5:42] unquote Rapport building other than [5:44] other than the typical cultural elements [5:47] like hey how you doing you have a good [5:49] weekend if there's something that's [5:51] specific like they're in Seattle They [5:53] just won the Super Bowl hey [5:53] congratulations or like that right there [5:56] like oh my God you're a Dion fan you [5:58] want to see that that little bit just to [6:00] get the thing going but once we start [6:03] I can't stand it when sales people [6:05] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] ask me questions about me and [6:07] all that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] none of your [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [6:08] business I'm here because I have a [6:11] product or service that I may want to [6:13] buy let's go right but you as of being a [6:17] representation of the Gap selling model [6:18] and a sales Growth Company was curious [6:21] how you took it from a salesperson to [6:24] you know the company that you built out [6:25] that was kind of just to elaborate okay [6:27] that's the question how did I build the [6:28] company I'll answer it I'll answer it it [6:32] seems off topic right it seems you can [6:35] skip on pass that's perfectly fine [6:36] that's no no because uh look you know [6:38] how these roles there's been 62 of them [6:39] so you can't sound surprised like you [6:41] choke this is what you chose to start on [6:44] so you got to live with it right so I'll [6:46] go there I started the company by [6:47] blogging well I didn't even start the [6:49] company I started blogging in 2009 [6:51] blogged every [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] day for two years [6:52] I got a lot of people who knew who I was [6:54] people started reaching out to me they [6:56] asked um if I took Consulting clients at [6:58] the time I didn't because I was working [6:59] with someone else then I got let go at a [7:01] big what do you call a big uh [7:03] acquisition and so then I was like I can [7:06] start it start this company and call [7:08] those people up and want to work with me [7:09] right and go find another job and work [7:11] for a bunch of [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] and I decide I [7:12] stopped my company and so it was just me [7:14] and I got more business than I hired an [7:15] admin and she made my world easier than [7:18] I got more customers and hired some [7:19] sales people that I wrote the book and [7:21] then the book took off and I created the [7:22] training and then the training got me [7:23] more and now here we are [7:25] beautiful so what I heard there is that [7:27] you're all over the place you know [7:28] people can find you on the website they [7:30] can find you on LinkedIn you're on [7:32] Facebook you got Book Sales you got [7:33] merch sales got this t-shirt here so the [7:36] main question to really start it off and [7:38] get it going towards where we're going [7:39] is how are you leveraging all of that [7:42] data to help drive that doubling your [7:45] year-over-year Revenue which is for was [7:48] the goal on one of your last uh Gap cell [7:49] keenans that you elaborated is what how [7:52] are we leveraging you said all that data [7:55] what is all that data what [7:58] because social media and I wait what [8:00] data are you asking me if I'm leveraging [8:03] right so all of the the data the people [8:06] that are visiting you on your website as [8:08] sales girls the people that are engaging [8:09] with your content on LinkedIn the people [8:11] that are engaging with your content on [8:13] Facebook [8:14] um you know the people that are buying [8:15] your book directly from you that are [8:17] listening to the podcast [8:18] are you leveraging that data [8:21] okay so you're not leveraging currently [8:25] um have you looked into is there a [8:27] reason that you are not uh leveraging it [8:30] because I can let you know [8:31] that Gardner has done some studies and [8:35] overall the impact of companies that are [8:39] not utilizing their data correctly IBM [8:42] estimates at about three people asked [8:44] one question and now you're already [8:45] trying to sell me the idea of using my [8:47] data you asked one question and you're [8:50] already still mode I'm trying to [8:52] articulate to you why you should be [8:54] using your data don't don't [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] try [8:57] to convince me why I should be doing [8:59] anything you should know this don't try [9:01] to you need to First find out if I have [9:03] a problem [9:04] I'm telling you you have a problem [9:06] because you're not using your data to [9:08] help oh my God you did all this research [9:12] and watch all these shows in the word [9:13] that just came out of your mouth is I'm [9:15] telling you you have a problem because [9:18] you're not using that data okay what [9:19] problem do I have [9:21] Okay so by the the last the last few [9:25] calls I've watched you know the I was [9:27] just watching the SEO call with Lance [9:29] and talking about SEO and trying to [9:31] drive more traffic and all that organic [9:33] search all that good stuff so a company [9:37] needs uh overall data strategy to [9:40] understand where all of the people are [9:43] finding you what problem do I have right [9:45] now you're preaching to me you're [9:46] literally preaching a company needs a [9:48] data strategy to do do you know what it [9:50] would look like if I got a buyer on the [9:52] phone and said a buyer that doesn't [9:54] train their sales people as an [9:55] underperforming sales team Gartner said [9:57] the teams that don't don't have internal [9:59] training they're 22 percent less likely [10:02] to do you know what people would do to [10:03] me if I said that to maybe like get the [10:04] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] off the phone so start so you told [10:07] me I have a problem jump watch what I do [10:09] here watch what I do here you tell me [10:11] what my problem is right now what's my [10:14] problem what I perceive your problem to [10:16] be [10:17] no what no I don't give away your CC [10:20] ever everybody listening everybody [10:22] listens who sales people do I don't care [10:25] about your perception until I believe [10:27] that you understand my world sure so so [10:30] if anything if you're really good and [10:32] you believe I have a problem you need to [10:36] keep asking questions you need to keep [10:38] digging in to then uncover or get me to [10:41] validate your thesis so right now you [10:44] said I know this is these are your words [10:46] I know you have a problem what is my [10:48] problem [10:49] Okay so [10:51] you're not currently leveraging the data [10:54] towards any type of data strategy [10:56] overall towards your growth currently [10:58] I'm just trying to understand what [10:59] you're currently doing with that [11:00] information from your customers that's [11:02] that's what I was trying to get at okay [11:03] well then ask more questions and stop [11:05] talking right like ask them a question [11:06] so we're not doing it [11:09] since you do have all these different [11:10] sources where people can find you where [11:13] what is your preferred where do you want [11:15] them to find you like ideally for you [11:20] LinkedIn the website [11:23] LinkedIn and the website LinkedIn the [11:26] website [11:27] and then [11:29] once you get them there [11:31] and they're on the website [11:33] how are you capturing that traffic how [11:36] are you identifying who's visiting you [11:37] good question so we use HubSpot and so [11:41] we have a bunch of resources so people [11:44] can download our resource from our [11:46] resource library and so when we do that [11:47] we capture them [11:49] um they can we just actually set up a [11:51] way to sell the book directly so if they [11:54] go to gaps uh Gap selling book directly [11:57] they can buy the book directly so we [11:59] captured that information [12:01] um uh and then they also have you know [12:04] connect with an expert or connect with [12:06] ASG and so they we call those hand [12:08] raises and they can say I'm interested [12:10] in talking about training I'm interested [12:12] in talking about Consulting and I'm [12:13] interested in talking about speaking so [12:15] they can get us that way so those are [12:16] the main ways that people can connect [12:18] with us okay and then you mentioned [12:21] LinkedIn and the website are the two [12:23] main sources where you would like people [12:24] to find you why do you want them to find [12:26] you there [12:28] as opposed to the other outlets that you [12:30] have oh because that's what we put most [12:32] of our content so [12:35] so we have the biggest [12:36] and I believe that's the particular area [12:38] where there's a uh our buyers live now [12:41] with the exception of the book and we'll [12:43] be dropping a book campaign here in the [12:45] end of October beginning of November [12:47] where we do some ads on Instagram uh to [12:50] drive people to buy the book The [12:53] majority of [12:54] our icps and the people that buy from us [12:56] aren't going to be buying sales training [12:58] or even looking to buy sales training on [13:01] Instagram they might buy the sales book [13:02] and then through the book we move them [13:03] over to LinkedIn and move them to the [13:04] website but right now it's those two [13:07] spots because that's where ICP lives [13:09] okay and some of your other trainings [13:11] you've spoken about uh or some of the [13:13] other calls the individual training is [13:15] all self-finding right now is that [13:17] correct people that sign up for your [13:19] individual online training Pages [13:21] organically found you yeah how are you [13:23] engaging with those people that are [13:27] doing the individual online training [13:28] after it's it's done [13:31] we have them in sequences right but when [13:34] they're done right now we're not because [13:36] we're not [13:38] okay [13:39] taking the training and they've had the [13:41] subscription for a year [13:43] so we're not [13:45] okay could you see value in [13:48] communicating with that individual who [13:50] has obviously seen the value in the Gap [13:51] selling training to see if there may be [13:53] an opportunity to expand to whatever [13:55] sales team that they are working with it [13:57] stands yeah [13:59] yeah has that method been applied or do [14:02] you have an ability to track and yeah we [14:04] can track all those people okay so are [14:07] you actively working with them and [14:09] identifying you know how they're [14:10] engaging with you across these different [14:12] platforms no they're engaging with [14:14] across the different platforms no no [14:16] okay [14:19] um [14:20] so how many people [14:22] that take the individual training [14:24] Express an interest beyond that training [14:26] interest in coaching beyond the the [14:29] training we don't offer coaching [14:30] individual coaching okay okay [14:33] we haven't we haven't traditionally I [14:36] shouldn't say that we just actually [14:38] added the individual coaching elements [14:40] uh in the last [14:42] 90 to 120 days roughly maybe six months [14:46] so we have a team of of Gap selling [14:49] trainers that we now send those people [14:51] who want individual coaching to them [14:53] right I I I had learned that through [14:56] doing your website so I was imagining is [14:58] that an area that you perceive is a [15:00] large growth opportunity for the [15:02] business moving forward [15:05] um actually yeah I think that's that's a [15:06] good question I think that's something [15:08] we could probably get better at yeah [15:09] okay [15:14] um and currently right now [15:15] I did engage in the free version of the [15:18] training [15:20] um I know you've complained about like [15:21] not being able to [15:23] or vented about not being able to add [15:25] new content and easily [15:27] um but I was curious how are [15:29] the people that are engaging in the [15:31] training currently how are you seeing [15:33] what they're engaging in or where [15:35] they're spending most of their time [15:38] do you have any way to track that or uh [15:40] like say someone was it's been the [15:43] discovery questions let's say they [15:44] watched that video four or five times do [15:46] you have any ability to uh capture that [15:50] information [15:51] no and if I mean look I do do know that [15:56] you can't move from stage to Stage so we [15:58] obviously obviously know when somebody's [16:01] got into it right yeah so I know we've [16:04] tracked their Journeys because when [16:06] people buy it from a company perspective [16:07] we have a dashboard that allows them to [16:09] see how far someone's gotten through the [16:11] training right so the management be like [16:13] hey you know Matt's only gotten two [16:15] sections out of nine through it what the [16:16] hell's going on with that so I know we [16:19] have that [16:20] um but as far as if once they've [16:23] unlocked it and they've watched it six [16:24] times they have no idea and I don't know [16:26] that I'd even care about that [16:27] information [16:28] well my thought was that if you're [16:30] trying to pitch the training to those [16:34] individuals [16:35] if they've taken the discovery portion [16:37] seven times it stands the reason that [16:39] they probably want some additional help [16:41] with Discovery and maybe like hey as a [16:44] sales trainer we notice that you've [16:46] engaged in Discovery would you be open [16:47] to some one-on-one training vis-a-vis [16:50] Discovery and that was kind of how you [16:52] could leverage that data to drive some [16:55] additional value [16:57] all right so so that's an interesting [17:01] perspective as well right [17:03] um [17:05] but remember right so so you're talking [17:07] about the online training right yeah and [17:10] someone's signing up and then moving [17:11] into coaching I told you we just moved [17:13] we just created this coaching thing [17:14] about [17:16] app [17:18] 90 to 180 days ago right okay so [17:22] um and that's for our certified trainers [17:24] right so [17:26] no we haven't really put a lot of effort [17:28] in and Manpower behind [17:32] um [17:33] combing through all the people that have [17:35] gone through it seeing how many times [17:37] somebody's gone through something then [17:39] sending that information over to [17:40] certified Transit certified training and [17:41] call them and ask if they want training [17:45] I think what's interesting about your [17:46] two things first off [17:48] that's business to Consumer okay that's [17:51] business to consumer [17:53] that is not the biggest piece of our [17:55] business so the fact that you're really [17:58] asking questions about how we can [18:01] leverage the use of our LMS which [18:04] they've already paid us for to try to [18:06] mine them for upsells at a at a person [18:11] by person level right at a b2c level [18:14] yeah I mean look yes yes that would be [18:18] smart yes maybe we should build the [18:21] report or something and then send that [18:23] report off to [18:25] um our certified trains and let them go [18:27] through that and make those calls but in [18:29] the scheme of our business that is only [18:31] a small piece of our business and let me [18:33] help you out the only reason we even [18:35] have that piece of business is because [18:36] we'd get calls from people whose [18:38] companies wouldn't invest in the [18:39] training and these people really really [18:40] wanted the training so we TR and they [18:42] wanted some of the good coach them so we [18:44] wanted to come up with a way to provide [18:46] service to that small group of people [18:48] who was willing to invest in themselves [18:49] and wanted coaching we didn't offer [18:51] before but that is not a main drive for [18:54] our business so you know so you're [18:56] spending a lot of time taking me down a [18:58] road that is [19:00] material to me [19:02] okay my thought was that if you I didn't [19:04] realize the the reason why people are [19:06] engaging in the individual training is [19:07] because their companies didn't value the [19:09] sales training so I was thinking that if [19:11] they valued the sales training they [19:13] could present it to their company and [19:15] then that could be a funnel towards okay [19:17] you know we've had 10 of your people [19:18] from your company take this online [19:20] training we see that we see that if we [19:23] see that we're on that okay okay so [19:26] that's that's I guess where I was trying [19:27] to go to get it back to that company [19:28] from the individuals but I'll pivot more [19:31] to just around the company [19:34] um so like when you are presenting the [19:36] results [19:37] to the executives I hired like how are [19:40] those being displayed or how do they see [19:42] you know the results of the training [19:44] after you're done [19:46] the online training or our in-person [19:49] whichever is more uh beneficial it seems [19:52] like the in-person training is the [19:53] biggest Money Maker so how are you [19:55] showing the executives like the the [19:57] stick rate of the training [20:01] we wouldn't have access to data that [20:04] would show the stick rate how would we [20:05] do that [20:07] so like how what currently right now [20:10] constitutes a successful in-person [20:13] training how do you how do you gauge [20:15] that okay so let me ask you a question [20:17] how do you think that would be gauged [20:19] all right everybody let me pause it [20:21] everybody listen this is the this is [20:23] what's important when it comes to Gap [20:24] selling and Matt's trying Matt's doing a [20:26] way better job now at least he's asking [20:27] questions on specifics right he's [20:29] missing all kinds of [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] it's a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [20:30] show if I was his manager but he's still [20:32] doing better than before but everybody [20:34] needs to remember listen you gotta [20:36] understand the questions you're asking [20:38] and have some sense of what's going on [20:39] right A lot of times you guys ask [20:41] questions to be plain as day Matt how do [20:44] you think a company [20:49] I lost your mic there but um [20:52] how do I think a company would value it [20:55] if the if the all of a large percentage [20:59] of the [21:01] uh sales people engage fully and go [21:04] through the training [21:06] um but I was curious as to your post [21:08] implementation if you reach back out to [21:10] those companies or are tracking you know [21:12] any Revenue growth or you know anything [21:15] along those lines where you could then [21:18] use that to drive other companies hey [21:21] for this company X they had year over [21:22] year growth you know after we did this [21:27] I I don't hear you at all I'm sorry I [21:29] don't know it's just on my end [21:38] I can't hear you [21:53] I can't I can't do anything [22:14] can you hear me now [22:16] let me back there you go I got you guys [22:19] I think I might have a computer problem [22:21] because that my internet says it's great [22:23] and this is the second time this has [22:24] happened to me in three days so and I [22:27] can hear my computer you know the [22:31] the fan going so I I and this computer [22:34] is almost four years old so it might be [22:36] stock [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] Apple nothing lasts more [22:37] than a week okay anyways so here's the [22:40] deal [22:42] you should when you ask me you need to [22:44] ask me questions like you did before [22:45] right you need to be more specific in [22:47] the questions you're asking so you might [22:49] want to say hey currently today how are [22:51] you guys measuring the success of a [22:54] sales training athlete you you you're [22:56] not and curious enough you try listen [22:59] you're asking all these questions trying [23:01] to find something to sell to you're not [23:03] asking questions to try to understand [23:05] how my business Works understand what's [23:09] going on you're just not asking those [23:10] types of questions so start thinking [23:12] stop thinking about trying to sell [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [23:14] and start thinking about trying to [23:16] understand and then diagnose sure okay [23:21] you mentioned that you have a dashboard [23:24] for the businesses that use you you know [23:26] what what all does that expose to the [23:28] leaders at the company that's what I was [23:29] trying to understand okay that dashboard [23:31] was is in the online training okay so [23:33] there isn't one for the in-person [23:34] training no okay so here watch this [23:36] watch this [23:37] I want you to go [23:39] and breathe [23:41] okay I Want You to Breathe [23:43] okay because [23:45] the question just asked suggested to me [23:47] that you're not thinking anymore okay [23:49] there would never be a dashboard for [23:51] live training it would never be a [23:53] dashboard what would be on that [23:55] dashboard for live training [23:57] well I thought that the live training [23:59] you had the modules and people were [24:01] engaging with them like that I wasn't [24:03] understanding how the live training [24:05] operated I guess okay then [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] ask [24:07] the questions that's what I'm trying to [24:09] say to you everybody listening [24:10] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] if you don't understand [24:12] something ask questions to understand [24:15] stop trying to pretend look in society [24:18] people think asking questions means [24:20] you're stupid no asking questions and [24:23] you're a goddamn genius and you feel [24:24] even a slight bit uncomfortable with [24:26] your question because even I sometimes [24:27] like I think I'm supposed to know this [24:29] and I don't but I am not going to [24:31] pretend I don't so I might say something [24:32] like look this may seem like a stupid [24:34] question but could you explain this to [24:36] me please or this maybe I missed [24:38] something here so could you just walk me [24:40] through that one more time or could you [24:42] help me understand [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] phone you saw [24:45] it a little and ask the goddamn question [24:46] don't move through without knowing [24:48] because you're gonna back yourself into [24:49] a corner and I'm listening to you asking [24:51] these questions like this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] guy [24:52] doesn't get it like literally I started [24:53] thinking he doesn't get I told him three [24:55] times we do most of our [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] by live it [24:57] if you're thinking about a live training [24:59] you know damn right well that there [25:02] isn't a dashboard everybody's in a [25:04] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] room or they're on zoom and [25:07] they're being coached and talked to by a [25:08] sales trainer there's no dashboard [25:10] there's no modules there's none of that [25:12] stuff right is that a fair statement so [25:14] yes so go keep going now so I guess I [25:17] was coming at it from a rep perspective [25:18] who has attended some of these live [25:20] trainings and generally you know not [25:22] there's a different level of Engagement [25:24] between these reps so I was curious like [25:26] how do you follow through with these [25:28] companies after the live training to [25:31] validate that it was successful like [25:33] what what makes it a success in their [25:35] eyes that's a good question now that's a [25:38] good question so first off we do two [25:40] things one we have besides the training [25:41] we call retention packages where we go [25:44] with the team we work with them after [25:45] the training to help reinforce the [25:48] training right so that we can make it [25:50] stick like anything else I just teach [25:52] you how to do something if I don't keep [25:53] coaching you to make you get better and [25:54] it's a waste of time so there's a lot of [25:56] live interaction and a lot of [25:59] engagement after the training with these [26:01] retention packages the other thing we do [26:03] is we offer a a survey where they take a [26:06] survey and when you use alchemer and we [26:09] provide a survey for every single [26:11] training and every individual training [26:13] even if we do multiple trainings for the [26:15] same company and we also splice that by [26:17] rep I mean starting up by uh trainer so [26:20] we can see which trainers have the [26:21] higher scores we can see which areas [26:23] people like the best which they don't [26:24] like the best Etc so we do all of that [26:26] okay so how are you like processing that [26:30] survey data is that something that's [26:32] done through noted analytics or like how [26:35] do you identify the relevant responses [26:38] so that you can adjust your strategy we [26:40] just read it we're not we and we can [26:42] aggregate things so we you know we we do [26:45] it all independently but then we can go [26:47] because it's just me phrase it it's one [26:50] survey of which we can then [26:52] sort or filter by uh who took it but it [26:57] all rolls up so as it all rolls up we [26:59] can see where we're strong where where [27:02] we we can see what areas that people can [27:04] continually say they don't like it the [27:06] training or scores lower versus higher [27:08] and then when you do that by rep I mean [27:09] by rep we can do that by trainer so we [27:12] can all look at all the different [27:12] trainers and say okay you know Mary [27:14] seems to do really well here but low [27:16] here Keenan Keenan has the biggest [27:18] spread between his NPS score lakina some [27:21] of the highest uh nines and tens but [27:24] also some of the lowest twos and threes [27:25] because he pisses people off and so yeah [27:27] so we see all that okay so how much time [27:30] does it take you to process like all [27:32] that survey data we don't use it very [27:34] often [27:36] uh what is the value then that why even [27:39] ask the surveys if you're not using that [27:40] data very often because we want to see [27:43] what people think when they're done [27:44] right it's not like people are filling [27:46] this out every 20 minutes so right so if [27:49] we do a training a week we go in we see [27:51] what happened if it's consistent with [27:52] what we saw on the other ones we keep [27:54] moving if they loved it great if they [27:56] hated it we call them up and say what [27:57] happened so [27:59] I don't know how else we would use it I [28:01] don't know that we need to be quote [28:03] unquote using it every day [28:04] sure like do you have an ability to [28:07] compare and contrast like the survey [28:10] data from each of your individual [28:11] trainings like so you could see oh this [28:14] this particular vertical really like [28:16] these aspects of the training yeah we [28:18] don't do it by vertical okay [28:20] we don't capture vertical okay how are [28:22] you currently capturing your your market [28:25] share or identifying by [28:27] oh wait what's the question [28:30] like how are you how are you are you [28:32] doing anything with that survey data to [28:35] identify [28:36] like other Industries or particular [28:38] companies that based on what they're [28:40] telling you like hey this would work [28:41] really well for yeah [28:46] data when we sign them up so we wouldn't [28:48] we wouldn't even [28:49] like [28:51] we yeah we'd have to start now by asking [28:54] what industry are you in I [28:57] I mean I guess if I had the data you [28:59] could prove me wrong or I could prove it [29:00] right but I don't really think that [29:03] industry specific it has any play and [29:07] someone's like or dislike of Gap selling [29:08] Gap selling is so agnostic that I would [29:11] find it very very I think they'd be [29:14] outliers if somebody was this doesn't [29:16] work for you but it does work for you [29:18] it's it works for everybody [29:20] okay okay all right so I'm gonna give [29:22] you about two or three more questions [29:23] and I'm breaking in because you you're [29:25] just you're struggling you don't even [29:26] know it [29:28] well yeah I I am struggling because [29:32] it seems like you know [29:34] just based on the research I've done the [29:36] number one problems that sales companies [29:39] run into that you've spoken about is [29:40] like customer acquisition costs and then [29:43] retention rate of the training so I'm [29:46] trying to ask questions around how you [29:50] can leverage the data that you already [29:51] have from the people that have engaged [29:53] with you to give you an opportunity to [29:57] show like we've done really well all [29:58] right so watch this everybody paying I'm [30:01] looking down on my phone everybody [30:03] talking everybody listen this is this is [30:05] for all of you Matt took the bullet but [30:07] you're all going to help Matt [30:10] I don't know if you can remember and [30:11] this is live I can't rewind it [30:13] but I want you to repeat what you just [30:16] said to me you said I was asking [30:18] questions to to do what [30:22] uh to get a better understanding of how [30:25] you could leverage your data to drive [30:27] you know the cost of customer [30:28] acquisition costs down essentially if [30:30] anybody said everybody hear that [30:31] everybody I'm asking questions depending [30:33] on understanding of how I can show you [30:35] how to better leverage the data that is [30:38] not Gap selling [30:41] so everybody needs to pay attention this [30:44] is why Brady's Gonna Love what I'm about [30:45] to say this is why about 70 of people [30:49] who read the book say their Gap sells [30:51] maybe Gap selling organization they [30:52] really believe they do and you don't you [30:55] don't that is not Gap selling Gap [30:58] selling is not about asking questions to [31:01] understand to show me how your product [31:04] works [31:06] Gap selling is asking questions to find [31:11] out where I have a problem or set of [31:15] problems that exist today because I [31:18] don't have you [31:20] I get how data Works Matt I'm not an [31:23] idiot right so what you needed to do was [31:26] you needed to find a place where I [31:28] didn't have data and because I didn't [31:29] have that data I was it was costing me [31:33] something [31:34] right and I think that's hard for you [31:36] because we're a small company we're not [31:37] a massive company right but I don't you [31:39] went and started all the wrong places [31:41] you needed to ask yourself which you [31:43] kind of did but I think you got it wrong [31:44] is where where is Keenan not using data [31:47] today and because he's not using that [31:49] data today it is negatively affecting [31:51] his business now where is that [31:53] where is that you know what I'm saying [31:56] and you just you you you weren't asking [31:58] questions to get me to say oh that's a [32:01] good okay Matt this I'm gonna help you [32:03] out [32:04] you want to ask questions to get me to [32:06] say oh [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] because you're right because [32:09] I'm not capturing that data or because I [32:11] can't see that data it's probably cost [32:14] me a b and c right [32:16] don't ask me questions to get me to show [32:18] me how if I use data it'll be better for [32:21] me you can't you literally can't do that [32:25] unless you found a problem for me first [32:29] or the again the problem would be not [32:32] getting the as much insights out of the [32:35] data you currently have that's not a [32:37] problem [32:38] that's that's a root cause that's not a [32:41] problem that is not a problem the [32:43] business problem would then be that your [32:46] Revenue growth is not [32:48] you know as much as it could be with the [32:51] data strategy like okay so then you've [32:53] got to find mind Matt you're in that's [32:55] yours what you didn't have a data [32:58] strategy at the beginning that was the [32:59] first question I asked you yeah but but [33:00] you didn't translate that into how is my [33:03] lack of data strategy in any way shape [33:05] or form slowing my growth you you have [33:07] got me anchored in no existing yeah look [33:10] I've done this before in the show and [33:11] I'm gonna do it again Matt right now [33:13] you're like a person who's trying to [33:15] sell me a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] diet or or a workout [33:19] routine okay by saying well hey you eat [33:22] shitty food like I literally just went [33:23] down and had three chocolate chip [33:24] cookies that's all I've eaten today so [33:26] far right [33:27] Keenan you don't exercise I don't [33:30] exercise so you have a problem no I [33:33] don't I'm six to 185 pounds I still wash [33:36] wood [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] out they're the luckiest [33:37] genetics in the God damn world so until [33:41] you show me that I have a problem and [33:44] maybe you're like okay let me do your [33:46] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] blood work oh [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] your High um [33:48] cholesterol I didn't see that part you [33:49] could have a heart attack be the [33:50] skinniest man in the world I didn't know [33:52] that thank you let's talk but you're not [33:55] getting it Zach you have got to get me [33:57] not you you don't [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] matter you [34:00] gotta get me to see that I'm missing out [34:02] on something and if you can't get me to [34:05] see that you can tell me all [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] day [34:08] long that I don't have a data strategy [34:10] and I'm losing money I'm not hearing you [34:13] got you so is that did that help at all [34:17] at all [34:19] a little [34:20] um I mean I'm trying to understand how I [34:22] can [34:24] show you the power of leveraging [34:25] yourself that's it that's why you're [34:27] stuck I want you to go back and watch [34:29] this you're not hearing me you literally [34:31] just said everybody hear what he said [34:33] I'm trying to show your way of the power [34:35] of data [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] stop [34:37] stop trying to show me anything stop [34:41] trying to get me to see anything stop [34:43] trying to get me to understand your [34:45] product stop it all stop ah moment that [34:48] I'm seeking like that you oh [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] I [34:50] could be [34:52] increasing my Revenue by you know over [34:55] 12 percent because most companies in the [34:56] United States they are losing around 12 [34:59] percent of total revenue because they [35:00] don't have a fully built out beta [35:01] strategy I'm trying to show you how [35:05] having a a data strategy I know what [35:09] someone just said listen someone just [35:11] said I don't think he's listening you're [35:13] not you're not listening or you're not [35:14] hearing I know what you're trying to do [35:17] again you're trying to convince me [35:20] someone who doesn't eat healthy is going [35:22] to die soon I'm trying to convince you [35:24] that eating healthy and working out and [35:26] if you don't do those things you're [35:28] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] right [35:30] I don't see it in me [35:33] right I don't see it in me I'm six [35:36] two one eighty five if anything I'm on [35:39] the thin side so you know what I would [35:41] do a mic as a kid and you're right [35:42] you're super thin do you ever get [35:44] insecure when you go to the beach [35:45] actually that's a good point I've lost a [35:47] little weed wait I do get a little [35:49] insecure when I go to the beach so now [35:51] all this oh this isn't about Health and [35:53] Living longer and eating well it's not [35:55] about any of that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] hey [35:57] Kennedy is single I'm making this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [35:58] the rest way yeah I am sick when's the [36:00] last time you're on a date how many hits [36:01] are you getting on your [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] your [36:03] your hinge your Bumble and I'm not as [36:05] many as I used to how old are the [36:07] pictures [36:08] three or four years are you thinner than [36:10] you are now than you were then yes so [36:12] why have you put up new ones I'm [36:13] actually a little insecure about that oh [36:23] spending all this time that because he's [36:25] not working out he's not healthy he's [36:27] eating like [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] I switched the argument [36:29] and say Keenan one of the reasons you're [36:31] losing weight is some of the metabolism [36:32] like yours when you don't work out when [36:34] you don't eat well your body does X Y [36:36] and Z and that's why you're losing the [36:38] weight and if you don't stop putting the [36:40] muscle mass back on you're gonna start [36:41] losing weight even a faster rate and now [36:43] you're going to even skinnier [36:45] right I mean it's [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] true but the [36:47] point is now you're talking to me Matt [36:49] you're not getting it so what you got to [36:52] do is stop thinking about your [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [36:53] product and by the way I know you're not [36:55] a good listener so here's the best thing [36:56] you need to do [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] learn to listen [36:58] because I'm even watching your eyes I'm [37:01] watching them and you listen for this [37:02] much and then you're already ready to [37:04] say something or you want to counter or [37:06] you're like but I don't agree I can see [37:07] it I can see it you'll learn to listen [37:10] so there's my two cents I'm gonna give [37:12] you another minute see if you can [37:13] diagnose where I am [37:19] take a breather come on baby you got [37:20] this I know I put you on the spot with [37:22] that rant but you got this [37:27] okay [37:28] um can I ask a question around noted [37:30] analytics uh you've spoken about yeah a [37:33] survey that you conducted of all of [37:36] these different decision makers these [37:38] buyers [37:39] um [37:40] how are you processing that that data I [37:43] know you spoke about over a couple of [37:44] months you're really excited for the [37:45] report to come out [37:47] um so you can show people why they're [37:49] wrong about such such and such like what [37:51] is that could you walk me through that [37:52] process that's a great question that's a [37:54] fantastic question and the answer is I [37:57] don't know Matt has Matt my head of head [38:01] of noted over there he's using some [38:04] application actually to try to pull that [38:07] data down to try to sort that data to [38:10] run that data through and get the um [38:13] get the the trends or whatever and I [38:19] don't I know he's been struggling with [38:21] that actually I know that that there's [38:23] tons of tons of data look at his eyes [38:24] everybody see his eyes just light up [38:26] he's like oh I got something right so [38:29] um [38:29] but I don't know what the application is [38:31] I'm sorry and I don't know exactly why [38:34] he has all what I'm saying he can get [38:36] all the data but he can't really [38:37] manipulate it and and do what he wants [38:40] with it and so it takes him a long time [38:43] okay okay [38:45] so [38:47] how how long has that process been going [38:49] on for like do you have a timeline where [38:51] that project is estimated be finished [38:54] um yeah so it's fairly new I gave him [38:55] like a about a month or two ago to uh [38:58] wait [39:02] anyways I'm reading the text I mean the [39:04] comments so [39:06] um but I do know that it's not going as [39:08] fast as I like number one and I do know [39:10] number two [39:12] um [39:17] it's fairly new oh it's fairly new [39:19] because I just asked him to do this [39:20] effort we collect all the data from [39:22] people when they go to analytics from [39:24] across all the different customers it [39:25] was seeing and I know there's going to [39:26] be Trends I know there's going to be [39:27] trans it's people who do stuff and so I [39:30] told him to go get that stuff so it's [39:32] fairly new okay so what was the goal of [39:34] putting on that survey [39:36] um to begin with good question now [39:38] you're talking okay the goal was We [39:40] Believe now I kind of gave it to you but [39:42] that's okay still good question [39:43] we believe that we can show where [39:49] um [39:50] deals closed and what's being done when [39:53] we deals close and things like we want [39:56] to be able to show things like [39:58] sales managers who review an opportunity [40:00] x times if it's n x numbered percentage [40:03] of clothes sales managers who view a [40:06] deal within one day versus two day [40:08] versus a week [40:09] um have a greater close rate so we think [40:12] we can show a lot of correlation and [40:13] causation of close dates and win rates [40:17] by seeing how managers behave with their [40:20] reps and how they the feedback they [40:22] provide and we want to be able to share [40:23] that data to people one for marketing [40:25] and two for motivation to continue to [40:27] use it [40:28] okay so how do you plan on on sharing [40:31] that data if you're taking so long to [40:33] process it how do you plan on uh [40:36] presenting it and so it's received in [40:37] the best fashion [40:41] we present it you put it in the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [40:44] you put it in a meme you put it in a [40:47] photo you put it what do you mean we we [40:49] take it and we put it in something and [40:51] put it on social media or send a PDF and [40:53] send it to our customers I mean what do [40:55] you mean I don't I don't even say well I [40:57] mean that's that's basically what [40:58] business intelligence does is it oh you [41:00] do it again [41:02] but you're not you're not just kidding [41:04] how I can help the help with the problem [41:06] which is you haven't you made it you're [41:09] taking two months to process this data [41:10] we can help you just ask me see it you [41:13] do it again you know you you cannot get [41:16] out of your own goddamn way you the [41:19] question you just asked me is how we're [41:21] going to display it or how we're going [41:23] to get it out we're going to use a PDF [41:26] who [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] cares but anyways you asked [41:28] the question I answered it to [41:30] so what's the next question [41:32] uh what would be the downside of if that [41:34] project was not successful [41:38] well I think you can pretty much know [41:40] that everybody I hate those questions [41:42] everybody why don't I'm going to give [41:44] you a chance to improve why don't you [41:46] ask that question so it's not an [41:47] obnoxiously annoying sales question [41:51] okay [41:53] um [41:54] what would the impact be if you did all [41:58] this research and not the impact I'm [42:01] sorry what would uh what would happen if [42:03] you did all this research and you [42:04] presented it and it's not well received [42:09] how it I wouldn't I I wouldn't put it [42:12] out [42:13] if the data wasn't valuable so there's [42:16] there's no chance that that data not [42:18] being well received zero [42:22] the data itself is valuable but how you [42:25] send it how it's formatted is a large [42:29] part of how people are going to perceive [42:30] it right like it's okay so we're using [42:33] it for marketing [42:34] so it's going to be formatted really [42:37] simple hey everybody think gong think [42:40] gong and they're in their LinkedIn post [42:42] hey did you know that people who curse [42:45] in a meeting close 22 percent more deals [42:47] that's all they had to [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] say see [42:49] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] I'm gonna close more [42:51] deals now okay so that's how it's going [42:54] to be distributed it's I'm not trying to [42:56] create an internal report for the [42:59] organization to make different decisions [43:01] that's going to be marketing data okay [43:04] so how what what value will that provide [43:08] for noted analytics or a sales growth is [43:12] that what's the goal of putting these [43:14] marketing out figures out there for [43:16] other businesses okay so it's an average [43:18] question but I can live with it I think [43:20] you already know the answer like like I [43:21] want you in think mode right so here I'm [43:24] going to help you out I would rather [43:25] everybody listen another teaching moment [43:27] for everybody through Matt I would [43:29] rather the question be what's the [43:30] objective there when it's pretty clear [43:32] the aliens because you said marketing he [43:34] said what's the objective marketing [43:35] putting that data on there that's [43:36] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] stupid the question if you want [43:38] validation it's a validating question [43:40] congestion the question really should be [43:41] so is it fair to say that all of this [43:45] data that you're trying to gather is to [43:47] drive marketing [43:49] to show other customers why they would [43:51] want to use known analytics because they [43:53] can't do they can't get this data [43:55] themselves without using you so is this [43:57] about lead generation is this about [43:59] customer acquisition yes see what I did [44:02] there see see that's the sales person [44:04] Matthew the way you've been doing it is [44:06] just obnoxious so yes yes five months [44:10] ago so three months keep going stay in [44:14] the moment stay in the moment [44:16] um [44:17] so how [44:19] how what impact uh how do you and will [44:23] you gauge the that project being [44:25] successful like what what what is your [44:27] goal to grow noted analytics by okay I'm [44:31] gonna help you out with this one it was [44:32] a terrible question but still I was yeah [44:34] okay here I'm gonna help you out [44:36] the goal of this is to find as much [44:40] unique data [44:42] as possible that can begin to change the [44:46] perception [44:48] of sales organizations and Frontline [44:51] sales managers and cross in the impact [44:57] that their Frontline sales managers have [45:00] on win rates [45:01] via deal reviews [45:03] the entire world is so focused on top of [45:06] the funnel it's a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] joke [45:08] top of the funnel top of the funnel [45:11] top of the funnel I was just told to be [45:13] nice to you anyway so [45:16] so we believe that yes top of the funnel [45:18] is important but we believe this way way [45:21] way way more value in focusing on the [45:24] stuff you get into the pipeline and [45:26] improving that process and those [45:28] approaches and those methodologies so [45:30] that you can convert more of what you [45:32] get in which reduces your CAC and [45:34] reduces the pressure on the top of the [45:36] funnel right right so my daughter likes [45:38] to fish if she if she can only snag 20 [45:42] of the fish that actually bite then [45:44] she's and she wants to catch 10 fish [45:46] that means she's got to get I'm shooting [45:47] at math 200 no 100 just got to get a [45:50] hundred freaking fish to bite right [45:52] that's hard but if she learns to turn [45:54] that into 50 a fish bite she snags she [45:58] only needs 20 now that's more realistic [46:01] the sales world can't get this through [46:02] their head they're still trying to get [46:04] more and more and more and more at the [46:05] top of the funnel so that's what we want [46:07] to do with the data we want to be able [46:09] to show people the value of that [46:13] okay okay [46:15] and so is that the main function of [46:18] noted analytics like is you said Matt's [46:21] a couple of main project is that [46:23] the the largest part of the business of [46:25] node analytics I did more of my research [46:27] on a sales groups than node analytics I [46:28] apologize [46:29] so is that the purpose of yeah noted [46:31] analytics is a is a deal management [46:33] opportunity management tool that helps [46:35] improve win rates so if organizations [46:37] struggle with win rates we yes that's [46:38] what it does [46:39] okay [46:41] um [46:43] so [46:45] all right I'm gonna break it all right [46:47] last question last question see what you [46:48] do with it [46:49] I said once you have all of that that [46:52] marketing data is presented out for the [46:53] marketing purposes how is that going to [46:55] grow uh noted analytics for you [47:02] but you okay remember I just told you [47:04] don't ask that kind of question [47:06] no how do you think it's going to I [47:08] actually kind of answered that question [47:09] already did I not [47:11] yeah I mean for marketing purposes and [47:13] showing people where that they're going [47:14] to get revenue from in the funnel and [47:17] how to maximize their funnel versus just [47:18] focusing exclusively on top of phone [47:20] good so if we're successful in that what [47:22] do you think it's going to do [47:25] it's going to shape the perception and [47:27] impact those organizations [47:29] um to help their selling strategies yeah [47:31] but what do you think it's going to do [47:32] for us [47:33] I don't know so I was asking [47:36] what does marketing do okay everybody [47:38] this is the last piece of advice is [47:40] going to be for everybody so this so [47:42] Matt I'm going to bring it down a level [47:43] I think there's a lot of opportunity for [47:46] you [47:47] to either [47:49] improve your business Acumen or because [47:53] I don't think it's that or [47:56] stop selling I think your your desire to [47:58] sell is so strong that it's clouding [48:02] your general thinking [48:03] so why do you think I would invest [48:07] in trying to get data out of node [48:09] analytics to create all of this [48:10] marketing to show people that there's [48:12] millions of dolls trapped inside their [48:14] pipeline because this Frontline sales [48:16] managers do not know how to properly [48:17] manage an opportunity with the rep right [48:20] why do you think I would want people to [48:22] see that [48:24] so that they would then become sales [48:26] Growth Company and utilize your [48:30] methodology yeah well noted analytics [48:32] they buy noted analytics right so that [48:35] is lead generation right right it's [48:39] pretty simple so when I tell you that [48:40] that's why we're using marketing when [48:42] okay marketing opportunities and you ask [48:43] why am I doing that you lose credibility [48:45] because you'd be playing as dead so this [48:47] is the lead generation strategy so what [48:49] you should have come back to is this is [48:51] you got really close and you missed it [48:52] because you're too hard to sell really [48:54] close what you should have come back to [48:56] is and I said yes it's difficult for [48:58] Matt to get out of it it's difficult him [49:00] to sort through the data it's difficult [49:01] for him to see what the trends look like [49:03] that's where we're hung up right now so [49:05] if we're hung up right now then that [49:08] doesn't allow us to create the outcomes [49:10] from a marketing perspective I'm looking [49:11] for or it doesn't allow us to see [49:13] certain things that may be sitting right [49:14] in front of he could just can't manage [49:16] the data appropriately to get what he [49:18] wants to get done and so therefore I [49:20] can't launch my marketing campaign if I [49:22] can't launch my marketing campaign that [49:23] I can't get that business that I want so [49:26] that you missed it you literally missed [49:27] it when I said you just [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] poop you [49:29] missed it you missed it right I had it [49:32] when you had the problems and then I got [49:33] sidetracked I don't know if it was [49:36] from you know all the energy that you [49:37] bring but uh that was very political [49:40] that was good yeah I'm decent I don't [49:43] know I fancy myself a decent listener [49:45] but you're right I was probably too [49:47] uh focused on my focus was on how to get [49:52] you to see that you could do more with [49:54] your data which is not what it should [49:55] have been yeah yeah right [49:59] I don't know how to say this because I [50:01] say it every day and I start to think [50:02] I'm stupid okay because I say it to [50:05] people every day and it doesn't sink in [50:07] so we've got we've lost some people but [50:09] we we have a good amount of people on [50:11] this right now right and so I want [50:13] everybody listening [50:16] you can't convince somebody [50:20] of what why your product is good or why [50:22] they need your product or or why they [50:25] why not having a data strategy matters [50:27] or why not working out matters or why [50:29] not eating healthy matters right you [50:32] can't convince somebody of that [50:34] listen to me everybody very closely [50:37] until you've got them to admit they have [50:39] a problem [50:42] if you cannot get them to admit they [50:44] have a problem then try to convince them [50:47] that not having something is a problem [50:50] is a fruitless effort [50:53] absolutely fruitless effort [50:56] so it seems like the main problem that [50:59] we've you've self-diagnosed I I maybe [51:02] enabled you to self-diagnose it but was [51:04] uh Matt dealing with this plethora of [51:08] data and being able to make sense of it [51:10] so that you can roll out your marketing [51:11] campaigns [51:13] um what is the delay in how is the delay [51:14] in this project impacting what are what [51:18] are something that you're doing to speed [51:19] up this project for nothing right now [51:21] Matt actually just text me I thought it [51:23] was going to be about this but it's not [51:25] um no he's just working on he's trying [51:26] to get out one piece of data a month [51:28] I mean sorry sorry sorry sorry one piece [51:31] of data a week is what he's trying to do [51:32] right now [51:34] okay so this is what I'm gonna do for [51:36] you we're done you got the longest one [51:38] ever I gave you more Runway than I've [51:40] ever given anybody so this is what I'm [51:42] gonna do I'm not even gonna promise you [51:43] an opportunity I want you to email me [51:45] the name of your company okay unless you [51:48] want to tell everybody here what it is [51:49] that's fine too okay [51:50] um and then I'm going to send that to [51:53] Matt and I'm gonna let Matt self [51:55] diagnose if he thinks that your company [51:57] could solve this problem and if he does [51:59] then I'll make him call you if he [52:00] doesn't your Sol [52:02] okay fair enough should have done a [52:04] better job so okay appreciate the [52:06] opportunity okay no problem so look I [52:08] think the biggest the biggest takeaway [52:10] here for you and this is two things [52:13] first [52:14] stop trying to sell [52:16] that has been that would the whole time [52:19] you were doing this and you even said it [52:20] at least three times even when I told [52:22] you you were doing it told you to stop [52:24] it then you came back and told me that's [52:25] what you were going to do is you kept [52:27] trying to ask questions to try to get me [52:30] to say something so you could tell me [52:33] why I needed your product tell me why a [52:35] lack of data strategy doesn't work using [52:37] other people's stuff people who have who [52:39] don't have a data strategy are 12 less [52:42] or people with the data strategy I don't [52:44] care about people and new to buyers they [52:46] don't care so you were so focused on [52:49] trying to ask questions in the veil of [52:51] telling that didn't allow you to next [52:54] listen and didn't allow you to [52:56] understand [52:58] diagnose and assess what's going on in [53:02] my world so you could find a problem [53:03] that I have with data that's affecting [53:06] an outcome that I want to achieve why am [53:08] I having the problem with that data and [53:10] because I'm having that problem if you [53:12] don't come along [53:14] X Y and Z is hurt that's the key piece [53:16] right you you until I told you you [53:19] couldn't have written in the CRM if [53:22] Keenan doesn't buy from us this is what [53:25] happens [53:25] couldn't have done that even if you had [53:27] convinced me that y'all yeah you're [53:29] right me and maybe we should do a little [53:30] more with data and did it and I'm like [53:32] you're right we don't have one but you [53:34] couldn't have said right am I telling [53:35] the truth you could not have said if [53:38] Keenan doesn't buy from us this is the [53:40] impact to his business could you [53:44] uh not no not uh directly based on what [53:47] you told me no no and that's but that's [53:50] the key piece go look at all your [53:51] opportunities you see on right now and [53:53] see if you can do that because that's [53:54] where you want to get [53:56] going back to my cheesy metaphor why is [53:58] Keating gonna buy I don't know Bumble or [54:00] whatever because Keenan hasn't it [54:03] because Keenan is insecure and he's [54:06] getting thinner and if he doesn't do [54:07] anything about this and be even more [54:08] insecure and he's going to go to the [54:10] beach less and he's going to feel like [54:11] he can't get a date he's going to feel [54:12] these things and he doesn't want to feel [54:14] that [54:15] you see what I did right there that's [54:17] why he's interested in working out with [54:19] a trainer that's why he might buy from [54:21] us not because he doesn't have a workout [54:24] now that's secondary not because he's [54:26] like [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] now that's secondary it was [54:28] until I anchored Keenan in the fact that [54:30] some things he wants and the feelings [54:32] he's having is a result of not having [54:34] that [54:34] and it's his it's his by himself right [54:37] that's the key piece you're missing you [54:39] got to get theirs by themselves [54:42] did that help [54:44] yeah it did okay [54:46] all right my man so here here's give me [54:48] give me a a fist through this way I got [54:50] you [54:51] okay this is what I do for you you're [54:53] gonna get free access to the Gap selling [54:55] online training uh [54:57] I don't know how to do yeah uh just hit [54:59] me up in in LinkedIn and I will send you [55:02] to Brady who will get you all set up and [55:04] you will get free access to that so [55:06] thank you very much for playing cool [55:08] credit I give you credit for taking [55:10] because I was hard on you [55:13] okay but I'm hard on people who I feel [55:16] aren't listening like I get like that [55:17] because I gotta break through gotta [55:19] break through okay [55:21] um and then go and then hopefully you [55:23] apply it and change it and it has an [55:25] impositive impact on the rest of your [55:26] sales because that's what I want from [55:27] you in the end of the day [55:28] appreciate it absolutely all right [55:31] Maddie good work baby thank you all [55:34] right brother peace [55:35] all right everybody [55:38] in spite of the um [55:40] technical difficulties which I may have [55:42] I may have to buy a new computer it [55:44] works pretty good most of the time and [55:45] it's been getting better today but I [55:47] don't know because I got plenty of [55:48] internet but man that computer is [55:51] anyways [55:53] um [55:54] so for those of you who just watching [55:55] for the first time you have just [55:56] experienced Gap cell Keenan [55:58] Gap so Keenan is a real salesperson with [56:00] a real product for real company who's [56:02] trying to get there 15 minutes with me [56:05] to see if I have a problem or issue they [56:08] can solve for me and my company Matt [56:10] just attempted that y'all saw what [56:12] happened [56:13] if they actually find a problem we will [56:16] buy [56:17] this is real like I will spend the money [56:20] if not as you saw [56:22] they gotta go [56:23] through the gauntlet and get coached and [56:25] pushed by me okay so if you want to be [56:28] on Gap cell Keenan DM me on LinkedIn [56:32] uh and hit me up and we will get you on [56:35] all right so everybody got nothing but [56:37] love hope you all enjoyed this until [56:39] next time [56:40] peace I'm out [56:43] all I hear go get the money so I'll go [56:45] get it [56:46] means I do something

===FILE=== xXvSkKLXVwA - 26 GAP Selling - Keenan.txt
https://youtu.be/xXvSkKLXVwA
26： GAP Selling - Keenan

[0:00] in today's episode we sit down with the [0:03] ceo [0:04] of a sales guy consulting forbes [0:06] contributor [0:07] award-winning blogger and author of gaap [0:10] selling [0:11] kenan this is personally one of my [0:14] favorite episodes as kenan [0:16] is a sales influencer that i continue to [0:19] follow and whose strategies [0:20] that i actually use today in the account [0:24] executive role that i'm in [0:26] and what you're really going to learn [0:27] today as we focus [0:29] is on how to apply the gap selling [0:32] strategy [0:34] specific to the sdr role but this is to [0:36] help you build pipeline [0:38] because we focus on cold calling and [0:41] prospecting [0:42] into your top tier accounts from the [0:45] heart of silicon valley in beautiful [0:47] san francisco california welcome to the [0:51] sdr [0:51] live podcast with marcos [0:54] and andy awesome well glad to be back [0:58] on another episode of the sdr live today [1:00] we have the myth [1:02] the legend keenan uh keenan welcome to [1:05] the show [1:06] thanks baby thank you baby people call [1:08] me the myth the legend what's up chen [1:09] i don't understand why i guess maybe i [1:11] should try to understand why that is but [1:12] i don't know i i it's interesting i i [1:15] it's always interesting to see how [1:16] people view me [1:17] because i'm definitely an initially [1:18] polarizing character i suppose [1:20] definitely i mean we're doing some [1:22] research before this i mean [1:24] keynote speaker author but we did find [1:26] some interesting facts about you like [1:28] ski instructors uh dad of three right [1:31] uh you have a bunch of girls and uh [1:33] founder of the elephant in the room not [1:35] even sure what that is so maybe that's [1:37] kind of how you created that myth [1:38] persona yeah possibly i mean you know [1:41] finding the elephant room look [1:43] our society particularly western culture [1:45] and really [1:46] very much so in american culture is [1:49] people in corporate culture for sure [1:51] people just don't like to touch [1:53] uncomfortable topics [1:55] and so what happens in business if [1:57] people aren't willing to call out the [1:58] elephant in the room [2:00] you can run a business into the ground [2:01] like you can spend more time [2:03] dealing with problems and you then you [2:04] need to deal with problems so you know i [2:06] don't think [2:07] problems are a reflection of people's [2:09] competence per se unless they continue [2:11] to persist but [2:12] i think that um the what's really is [2:15] if you have a problem call it out let's [2:17] go fix it right i mean [2:19] it i mean literally it's like little [2:21] kids right [2:22] in a lot of ways i'm like little kids [2:23] right is when somebody [2:26] a little kid sees somebody without an [2:28] arm [2:29] everybody in the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] room isn't [2:30] gonna say a word right but the little [2:33] kid's like hey what happened to your arm [2:35] oh [2:36] i'm like why are you up like why is [2:39] everybody [2:39] like i'm the guy i'll ask the dude if no [2:41] one asks like hey dude i hope you don't [2:42] mind me ask but i'd love to hear what [2:43] happened to you i'm that's who they are [2:45] like nine out of ten people i meet like [2:47] yeah i love that you asked i mean like [2:49] it was it was a bad accident i was a [2:50] little kid or you know where i was born [2:52] this way and [2:53] they like it being asked then it's on [2:55] the table and then they can move on [2:57] what i'm saying but it is our society we [2:59] just don't want to have those [3:00] uncomfortable conversations [3:01] to our own detriment so i'm proud of [3:04] being that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] guy and then well [3:06] here's the funny part then i get all [3:07] this information i know anything that's [3:08] going on [3:09] and be like wow man how did you know [3:10] that i asked him [3:12] i asked him and then they like me and [3:14] we're hanging out yeah it's [3:16] people just just have some balls man [3:18] like you have [3:20] in business if some screwed up at guys [3:22] why [3:23] is this over here still broken [3:26] why why is still broken well that's [3:28] mary's and mary's been sick [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] i know [3:29] he's been sick but can [3:30] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] let's get married full-time [3:32] disability and let's fix the problem [3:34] rather than pretending it's not there [3:35] and where i'm sitting mary and hurting [3:36] her feelings because she can't get to it [3:38] making her feel bad [3:39] no just you just kicking the can down [3:41] the road it just gets worse [3:43] yeah no just yeah anyways elephant in [3:45] the room [3:46] that's no that's some good insight and [3:48] you know a lot of actually [3:49] so a lot of our audience is sdr's right [3:52] they're just starting their sales career [3:53] and [3:54] what i've been seeing in general is a [3:55] lot of them are more passive right it's [3:57] they're afraid of the truth and so [3:59] maybe you can give some insight i you [4:02] talked about it right just kind of say [4:03] it out there but [4:04] i'm sure you coach a lot of them on how [4:06] can they build up the confidence [4:08] to like just lay it out there on the [4:10] line is is it more of like [4:12] researching hunting on like key personas [4:14] or like what are your thoughts there [4:16] look i think it starts before you even [4:18] try to make a call [4:20] before you even uh try to research [4:22] somebody i think it starts [4:24] with a belief in what you sell [4:29] and here's the difference your belief in [4:31] what you sell [4:32] and how it can help people [4:35] or help businesses create a better world [4:39] so there's a metaphor i use all the time [4:41] okay [4:43] there's no lady on here but ladies [4:45] listen and you'll get it every time i [4:46] ask a woman [4:48] in my training hey ladies can you think [4:50] of a a scenario in any way shape or form [4:52] where a strange man grabs you on the [4:55] street and that's okay [4:56] and like hell no like hell no like that [4:58] and you know some women are more [4:59] outspoken [4:59] right if they want to get punched in the [5:01] nose right so it [5:03] they all say no and i say great and then [5:05] i say so now i want you to imagine that [5:07] you are walking down [5:09] fifth avenue you're walking down [5:11] something in san francisco y street's [5:13] not coming to me right away but anyways [5:14] you got your you got your phone i just [5:16] got a text from somebody important you [5:17] got music on [5:18] and you're doing this and you're not [5:19] paying attention and you're just about [5:21] to step into oncoming traffic [5:24] and some guy sees it and he reaches out [5:27] and [5:27] grabs you and yanks you back in and i'm [5:30] going to push it [5:31] i'm going to push it and as he grabs you [5:32] his hands accidentally rub [5:35] across parts of your body that aren't [5:36] appropriate are you mad [5:39] not a single person is upset and then i [5:42] say to the dude i said hey dude [5:43] did you think twice before you grabbed [5:45] her were you afraid she'd get mad [5:47] were you afraid of grabbing like hell no [5:49] of course why [5:50] why why was the woman not mad you [5:52] grabbed her why was the man not scared [5:55] to grab her why [5:57] yes yes but but step it back further why [6:01] was he not afraid [6:03] hmm that's a good question [6:06] motive motive the motive was not about [6:10] him his motive [6:12] was not for his own personal gain [6:16] right she understands by pulling back [6:19] she's not mad that he just [6:20] you know accidentally brushed up against [6:22] her breast and grabbed her arms or [6:23] whatever [6:24] because he was pulling her back she [6:25] understands the motive [6:27] was not a cheap motive to get something [6:29] for himself [6:31] the motive was her was a selfless motive [6:34] for her own benefit [6:38] so why does this have to do with sales [6:40] if you are an sdr [6:42] and you genuinely believe that your [6:45] product or service can make a [6:46] difference in an organization if they [6:48] have xyz problems the equivalent of [6:50] stepping out into the street [6:52] then you should not be afraid to call [6:54] you should be confident as all get up [6:56] you're not [6:56] calling for you you're calling for them [7:00] you're calling to get them to to see if [7:03] you're calling to see if they have a [7:04] problem [7:05] that you know you can fix that can [7:07] improve their business and i don't know [7:08] what it is you're selling [7:10] but if it's to make someone's life [7:11] better it's to accelerate revenue if [7:13] it's to minimize [7:14] lost expenses if it's to beat the [7:15] competition i don't know [7:17] but if it's for them and that's what [7:20] you're leading with [7:21] there should be no fear yeah [7:24] we are never afraid when the motive is [7:27] selfless because we know [7:28] that we're not doing it for us why [7:30] should it be afraid to do something for [7:31] you [7:33] that's a good point um and you know what [7:35] resonated there [7:36] was in your book you mentioned this idea [7:39] of like being that doctor [7:41] and the idea of that headache right and [7:44] this is what resonated for me when i was [7:46] kind of making my path from sdr to ae [7:48] kind of doing that discovery process was [7:50] which is like hey someone could have a [7:52] headache [7:53] but if you say take like tylenol take [7:55] this and it doesn't get rid of it [7:57] they can have a freaking tumor right and [7:59] it could lead to cancer right [8:01] but with that i have so much more [8:03] confidence being like look [8:05] this is what i've seen helped you know [8:07] many companies and that's why i'm [8:08] calling right because [8:10] this is why it can help but what i like [8:12] to lead off with [8:13] and what you mentioned is like the [8:15] problems yes right [8:16] so can you talk to sdrs because a lot of [8:19] sdrs start with features [8:21] right they're like oh we offered xyz or [8:24] we're number one in gardner magic [8:25] whatever right [8:26] it's kind of like [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] right what [8:28] are your thoughts as far as like [8:30] leading off with the problem okay in a [8:33] discovery or a cold call [8:34] let's let's let's frame this as a cold [8:36] call sentence yar is that's that's [8:38] mainly [8:39] uh what they're doing every day so this [8:41] one it's it's not too robust in it [8:43] and this is one of the few places you [8:44] have less control and even with gap [8:46] selling [8:47] i got about this much i got a very tiny [8:50] amount [8:51] of influence on a cold call so there's a [8:53] couple things you have to do on the cold [8:54] call and i can't take full credit for [8:56] this i've learned this over my careers [8:57] from folks like ryan ricer and other [8:59] people [8:59] the first thing you got to do is [9:01] acknowledge [9:03] you're interrupting them [9:05] okay right away [9:06] right it's like you know hey andy [9:10] i know i'm interrupting you [9:13] right and then ask for [9:16] about you know 10 seconds 15 seconds 30 [9:19] seconds [9:20] some people like to do this thing 27 [9:22] seconds be like whatever can i just get [9:24] 30 seconds to tell you why i called [9:25] okay not tell you about my product to [9:27] tell you why i call so [9:29] we're chunking it for them people can [9:30] chunk things right so hey i know i'm [9:32] interrupting you [9:34] can i just get 30 seconds to tell you [9:36] why i called i'm acknowledging it now i [9:37] want 30 seconds so at the end of 30 [9:39] seconds you can tell me if you want to [9:40] talk anymore [9:41] right in that if they they're going to [9:44] say yes literally about [9:45] 50 of the time if not more right when [9:48] they say yes there's [9:50] you've got that 30 seconds to tell them [9:53] why you call and it depends on who you [9:54] are but that's where i like to put in [9:55] the problems [9:56] all right we we have worked with people [10:00] organizations who are struggling with [10:03] lost [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] mittens right lost mittens [10:06] and lost ski wear [10:08] and because of the loss of men's and [10:09] lost ski wear their kids hands are [10:11] freezing or their ski days have been [10:13] destroyed [10:14] and all of that money they've spent on [10:16] lift tickets and getting there on [10:17] vacation is being trashed because of [10:19] something as simple as lost mittens [10:21] we found a very unique or revolutionary [10:25] or [10:25] whatever unique way of addressing that [10:28] problem [10:29] would you be open to hearing about it [10:32] interesting so oh sorry go ahead [10:36] no no they've done like that's that then [10:37] they say yes or no and if you they say [10:39] yes and let's get up time to do it later [10:40] and if they say no [10:42] then i have a way to deal with that too [10:43] but that's how you do it which question [10:45] um no [10:46] i think this is good and you talk a lot [10:48] about [10:49] um making them kind of in control [10:52] to so they could say yes like i have [10:54] that problem without you specifically [10:56] saying hey you have that problem you [10:58] never tell a buyer they have a problem [11:00] i see too many dumb asses do it never [11:03] that's that yeah that's something i took [11:04] from from your book and so [11:06] what are some i think of it like verbal [11:08] jiu-jitsu i'm not sure if you're like [11:10] mma but you're trying to like [11:11] yeah i know it's true you're in control [11:14] but that you make them feel in control [11:16] so [11:16] is it that simple as a question it's [11:18] like hey we're helping them with xyz [11:21] does this resonate and if they say yes [11:24] great [11:24] right notice what you did right now no [11:27] you did not [11:28] say what i just said you said we're [11:31] helping companies with does this [11:33] resonate [11:34] that is product centric [11:38] okay you didn't say we are working with [11:40] people who are struggling [11:42] with this problem and then you didn't [11:45] add an [11:45] impact right they start with lost [11:48] mittens and therefore [11:50] lost men's root cause and therefore the [11:53] kids are this is a horrible example but [11:55] i think everybody gets it right [11:56] and therefore the kids have an awful [11:58] time skiing or can't go up on the lift [12:00] or they got to spend another hundred [12:02] dollars [12:02] and now the kid is crying and it's [12:04] ruined the vacations [12:06] problem and therefore they don't come [12:08] back [12:09] impact see what i do right there rook [12:12] you don't have to do them all but root [12:14] cause lost mittens [12:16] problem kids pissed off crying gotta buy [12:18] new gloves [12:19] unhappy experience impact they don't [12:21] come back see that [12:22] root cause problem impact boom right and [12:24] then you say [12:25] we have found a revolutionary [12:29] uh we've got a breakthrough we've we've [12:31] got a very unique approach [12:33] to solving or addressing that [12:37] i'd like to talk to you about that would [12:38] you like to learn about that [12:40] notice it's all on the problem i haven't [12:42] said a word about what we're doing for [12:43] other people i haven't said a word about [12:45] future statements i'm worried about the [12:47] solution i'm setting them up to talk [12:49] about the problem [12:49] so if i have i'm thinking of a ski [12:51] resort i'm a ski resort [12:53] and i have that problem which is isn't a [12:56] real problem but you get my point [12:58] i'm going to probably want to talk to [12:59] you yeah [13:01] that's interesting without the problem [13:03] ah that's that's a good yeah so problem [13:07] impact root cause and don't even give a [13:10] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about what you're [13:11] you know you're selling right don't give [13:13] a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about what you i say it nobody [13:15] cares [13:16] get them anchored in the current state [13:19] problem okay that's interesting um [13:23] andy i know you had a question um about [13:25] this so i thought i'd kind of defer to [13:27] you here [13:27] great segway uh great stuff for me [13:30] i'm trying to understand like once you [13:32] do get them to agree to that meeting [13:34] and you talk about kind of uh all [13:36] meetings in the beginning [13:38] it's the sales one at the beginning and [13:40] not at the end and it [13:41] kind of reflects the number of questions [13:42] you ask is in the sales cycle [13:44] increases your chance of making that [13:46] lead so here's the question as [13:48] uh as a current sdr a lot of times [13:52] the prospect will come in and then you [13:55] kind of introduce yourself like i'm sdr [13:57] if there's a fit between us um i'll pass [14:00] you on to our account executive [14:02] and sometimes that kind of works against [14:04] us because my goal [14:05] is to like you said widen the gap [14:07] uncover more [14:08] problems expose kind of the true size of [14:10] their problems [14:11] but i get sometimes a lot of resistance [14:14] between [14:15] customers knowing that oh i'm just the [14:17] sdr they want to speak to the ae instead [14:19] so they kind of just shut down and don't [14:20] give me why do you even why do you even [14:22] offer that up [14:25] of why i'm the sdr no but what you yeah [14:28] i think you said a second ago [14:29] um i just want to see if it makes sense [14:31] to pass you on or i just want to talk to [14:32] you and if this works then i'll pat like [14:34] why do you even put that in the [14:35] beginning [14:36] uh to educate them on a process who [14:38] gives a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about your process [14:40] all they came to show up on this call [14:42] was to talk about this problem that you [14:45] convinced them [14:45] or you got them to think they might have [14:47] so i i got a bunch of kids losing their [14:49] mittens [14:50] so i'm here to talk to you why are you [14:52] telling about your process what happens [14:53] next [14:54] just say hey i really appreciate coming [14:55] on let's talk about this mitten thing [14:58] tell me what's going on because i know [14:59] it drives a lot of my buyers crazy [15:01] right what's going on yeah well you know [15:03] we we got we probably [15:05] you know probably about 2 000 kids a [15:06] year who lose their mittens [15:08] you know what i'm saying and they come [15:09] in crying and and [15:11] the parents are upset and they're not on [15:13] the hill yet and sometimes the parents [15:14] have [15:15] uh private lessons and now they're [15:16] missing their lesson because they got to [15:18] figure out how to solve this [15:19] issue with the mittens and you know when [15:21] we got hit to him we started running [15:24] reports and we realized that twenty [15:25] percent of the no i would stop [15:27] that would be all of that but you'd be [15:29] good at asking questions like [15:31] all right so when they lose mins what [15:32] happened how are you solving it now [15:33] today [15:34] and is it growing or is it shrinking and [15:36] how many minutes a year are you losing [15:38] and [15:38] of those how many aren't coming back and [15:40] how do you track that to know they're [15:42] not coming back [15:43] and what about your um um net promoter [15:46] score does this affect your net promoter [15:47] score even though it's not your fault [15:49] and you know blah blah like i'm seeing [15:51] what i'm doing all these questions [15:52] that's what i'm doing i'm having a [15:53] conversation [15:54] digging into the problem how big is it [15:55] how much does it affect you who's [15:57] involved what are the processes [15:59] what processes create it and then i get [16:00] real creative right and i'd be like all [16:02] right so [16:02] let me ask this question do you ever [16:03] find those mittens yeah sometimes [16:06] and when they lose them sometimes in the [16:07] village they lose them on the hill yeah [16:08] so [16:09] other times they lose them on the hill [16:10] and you never find them yes so what [16:11] you're saying is there could be [16:12] thousands of mittens polluting the [16:14] freaking [16:14] the hill yeah yeah everyone so i go [16:16] hiking i find a mitt when i'm hiking how [16:18] do you guys feel about that [16:19] not very good it doesn't reflect well on [16:20] us so i just now broaden the gap but i'm [16:22] thinking [16:23] not only you're losing men you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [16:24] live in littering thousands of minutes [16:26] all over the ski hill how is that okay [16:29] you see what i'm doing now i'm making [16:30] all this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up but the logic are you [16:32] following my logic [16:34] yeah you're what you're doing is um [16:37] you're first seeing what the problem is [16:38] and then you're trying to expand that [16:40] problem to widen the gap this is what [16:41] i'm thinking right [16:42] and then that's opening the prospect [16:45] more to hear what you have to say [16:47] future state and then um [16:50] so one question there which is um hold [16:52] up real quick real quick [16:53] so i want andy to make sure we got this [16:54] right andy so if you have that type of [16:57] dialogue andy [16:59] by the time you're done they're going to [17:02] say to you okay what are next steps [17:05] anyway yes so i'm going to introduce you [17:07] or i'm going to set up a meeting with [17:08] our account executive [17:09] who is really well versed in solving [17:12] these problems they're going to walk you [17:13] through a demo [17:14] it's going to show you specifically how [17:16] we can address these you know it's in [17:18] now that we've recognized you're also [17:19] upset about how they're getting stuck on [17:20] the mountain how we [17:21] we actually have a remediation process [17:24] for that which i didn't even realize but [17:25] it might be good for you [17:26] and so now you start to do that [17:28] transition into solving the problem and [17:30] that's where the account executive is [17:31] there for them you're there to find the [17:32] problem the account executives to solve [17:34] the problem [17:34] and so [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] the the other [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] in [17:36] the front oh let me tell you how this is [17:38] going to work and [17:39] no just have a conversation about fixing [17:41] the problem [17:42] and get good at that get good at that [17:44] because that's not easy so [17:46] so i have two questions but i want to [17:48] focus a little bit more on [17:50] andy's question because this is more [17:51] pertaining to the sdr so [17:53] keenan you probably coach a lot of sdrs [17:55] yourself [17:56] but that seems like a pretty big problem [17:59] to me because i hear that all the time [18:02] when even when i was in sdr which is [18:04] like your role is to just [18:06] ask band or like medic or something and [18:08] then pass that along and [18:10] i think a lot of the like no [18:13] no yeah no listening company [18:16] any company listening to this i want [18:18] look [18:20] i got a knife i'm gonna stab somebody [18:22] okay [18:23] listen to me listen to me or i'll stab [18:26] myself [18:26] oh no to me if you think that your job [18:29] is to spend all that time money and [18:31] effort to get your sdrs whether it's [18:33] inbound or outbound [18:34] to finally find finally get [18:38] a prospect on the phone so that you can [18:40] ask them about bands so [18:42] you can qualify them if they should buy [18:44] your product [18:45] you're not a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] um private club [18:48] people [18:49] your product's not a private club it's [18:50] not your job to see who gets to come [18:51] into our club [18:52] and so when you start asking bank [18:54] questions and medic questions you're [18:55] being an asset [18:56] and you're literally making that buyer [18:57] justify whether or not they should have [18:59] a conversation with you [19:01] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] off yeah and the reason i learned [19:03] to hate bands because people used to do [19:05] it to me [19:05] i'm sitting here thinking how can you [19:06] help me how can you help me you got me [19:08] here i got a problem like so what do you [19:09] have budget for this [19:12] what the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you told me i got a [19:14] problem [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] you can we talk about my [19:16] problem [19:16] well and if we can figure out how to fix [19:19] this for you [19:20] uh when do you think you're ready to buy [19:22] ask me one more stupid question i'm [19:24] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] gone i don't care how bad the [19:25] problem is [19:26] literally don't do that so tell your [19:28] bosses and all the people that run a [19:30] little sales organization to cut the [19:31] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [19:32] yeah find the problem look i know you [19:34] got a question but this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] drives me [19:35] insane [19:36] here's how you do it this is your job as [19:38] an sdr if you have the second meeting [19:40] all you have to do is set the meeting up [19:41] this is different [19:42] ease job but if you have to do the call [19:44] and the first [19:45] qualification meeting here it is [19:47] everybody ready here it is [19:49] does the buyer prospect have a problem [19:52] that we can fix is the [19:56] does the buyer or prospect admit they [19:58] have the problem [20:00] does the buyer prospect want to fix [20:03] the problem and then finally will the [20:07] buyer prospect go on a journey with us [20:09] to fix the problem [20:12] if you get those four game over and a [20:15] discussion i'll put that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] against [20:16] [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] medic [20:17] i'll put med i'll send medic to a medic [20:19] i'll make it look so silly [20:21] and i will also then put that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] up [20:23] against man [20:24] because i i mean no disrespect but if [20:26] you really think about the concept of [20:28] decision making [20:29] right and you and you know anything [20:31] about psychology [20:32] when it comes to change and deciding to [20:35] change [20:36] individuals need to buy in first and so [20:38] that's why they say and when it comes to [20:40] alcoholics anonymous and other things [20:41] like that or addiction [20:43] that the first thing that persons do is [20:44] admit they have a problem [20:47] right there is no change until you admit [20:48] you have a problem there are people [20:50] who will go with famous people because [20:52] it's easy to do who have all the money [20:53] in the world [20:54] right so i get all the budget in the [20:56] world right and they check themselves [20:58] into these things right and so [20:59] um let me see uh they're the authority [21:01] right and they know they need help [21:04] right and they know they need that help [21:05] now there's your band [21:07] i don't have a problem yeah i i know i [21:10] know [21:10] my life is in ships but i don't have a [21:12] problem i can handle it so we wasted all [21:13] that time [21:14] and they don't change so that's why it [21:17] matters [21:18] right i think um one of the root causes [21:22] to [21:22] like scr is going because i feel like [21:24] it's an emotion like [21:26] they're just going through the motions [21:27] with bad because they don't [21:29] give a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] about what they sell they [21:31] don't have a genuine curiosity [21:33] um and so maybe uh i'm wondering i want [21:37] you to go back to what you said [21:39] you got but you only got halfway there [21:40] see even though i know you're good at [21:42] this [21:43] but look how ingrained you are what did [21:45] you just say they don't have [21:47] who the sdr's curiosity nope [21:51] nope uh [21:57] something oh some about what they sell [21:58] what do you say something to sell uh [22:01] you don't care about what they're [22:02] selling they don't care what they're [22:03] selling [22:04] yeah what did i tell you and all your [22:06] listeners to in the very beginning about [22:08] fear [22:11] oh jesus do you really run a podcast and [22:13] that learned from you before your [22:14] podcast guess [22:15] in the very beginning i said that it's [22:18] not [22:18] it's not about liking what you sell yeah [22:22] it's about genuinely knowing and [22:24] believing that you can [22:25] solve a problem for somebody yeah [22:29] so even you after we just had this [22:30] conversation yes okay [22:32] you care about what you sell but if you [22:35] care about what you sell you should care [22:36] about what you sell [22:37] because you believe it can solve a [22:39] problem [22:40] so that's the problem you don't [22:41] genuinely believe that you can make a [22:44] difference [22:46] why does someone become a doctor what if [22:47] someone become a a heart surgeon [22:49] probably because a lot of times when my [22:50] dad died of um [22:51] of a coronary heart disease right so [22:53] that's why they want to be a doctor they [22:54] don't want to be a doctor because they [22:55] genuinely believe in their ability to [22:57] commit it they do it because they want [22:59] to [22:59] save lives they know that they can save [23:02] lives [23:03] that's the motivation that's the [23:05] excitement it's not the same [23:06] but every product i ever sold i got so [23:08] excited because like yo man [23:10] i know how your world is today and if [23:12] you give me a chance i could get you [23:13] over here and that's awesome [23:15] let's solve this problem man let's let's [23:17] fix this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [23:19] that's where the head needs to be not [23:21] hey i got a knife i really like my knife [23:23] i love my knife i have no clue how you [23:25] would use it i have no clue if you're a [23:27] camper [23:27] a military man a stay-at-home mom a [23:29] packer you got a cup [23:30] i have no idea no no i care about that [23:34] stuff [23:35] because they care about you and care [23:37] about your environment and care about [23:38] your current state i get excited [23:41] overly excited when you say nobody let [23:42] me know man how can you say no like [23:45] you've been lugging around this stupid [23:47] orange thing where you hike [23:48] and you say you like 30 miles a day why [23:50] don't you put on a nice light [23:52] backpack called a camelback and just sip [23:54] when you and hold oh [23:55] like why would you oh like oh oh i love [23:57] that it's not even a cable back it's [23:59] i'm making your life hiking easier yeah [24:03] rant over very interesting awesome [24:07] well i have one last question before we [24:09] end so we focused a lot more on the [24:11] problems [24:12] the current state um one of my thoughts [24:14] was like [24:15] using social proof i know that's a big [24:17] psychology use case studies [24:19] in the future state how do you make that [24:21] transition [24:22] um pretty seamlessly so the buyers open [24:25] to [24:26] and receptive as an sdr i don't you [24:29] don't [24:30] okay in cadences i will i say a lot in [24:32] cadences use content within cadences to [24:35] get them [24:36] to respond to you and these in these [24:39] social proofs if you will need to be [24:40] focused around business problems [24:42] so if you have a case study it should [24:44] start with the customer was losing 10 [24:46] 10 million dollars a day right and and [24:50] the impact of that was they were about [24:51] to go out of business so the government [24:53] was going to [24:54] lock them up for you know what i'm [24:55] saying impact right root cause [24:57] is you know whatever the root cause is [24:58] boom boom boom boom boom and by the way [25:00] the root cause is what you solve [25:02] root cause is what you solve you can't [25:05] solve the business problem you can't [25:06] solve the impact you can only eradicate [25:08] the root causes right [25:11] yep okay so um so then if [25:14] as long as the case study starts that [25:17] way [25:18] and then turns around and transitions to [25:21] how you solve it i can live with that [25:23] in a in a cadence as a way to get their [25:25] attention rooted in a problem but once [25:28] you get them on the phone [25:30] no no no you do not you because you're [25:32] an sdr [25:33] your job is to get them what are the [25:35] four things impress me what are the four [25:37] things [25:38] problem admit they have a problem want [25:40] to fix it and then they go on a journey [25:42] with you [25:43] yes once you get those four then the [25:46] social proof matters then you start [25:48] talking about it and then they're gonna [25:49] they make [25:49] well how do i know this is gonna work [25:51] and what about this okay then all the [25:52] social proof in the world [25:54] yeah you know social proof before you [25:55] got them to own a problem [25:57] okay again if they don't really have a [26:00] problem it's gonna ricochet off again go [26:02] back to somebody [26:03] who uh do you guys play any sports yeah [26:06] i was [26:06] actually a professional triathlete for [26:08] about two years for team usa [26:10] so you're sick that's some sick [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] but [26:13] okay [26:13] so let's just say that you don't believe [26:16] you have a problem [26:17] although you've never been able to [26:18] finish an iron man even though you want [26:21] to finish an iron man [26:22] right you've never know fishing would be [26:23] like oh no i get i don't have a problem [26:24] i just need to i just need to [26:26] i could tell you all day long about this [26:28] greatest coach in the world [26:30] yeah what's up it's just going to [26:32] ricochet off you [26:34] right it's just going to ricochet off [26:36] you until you like i have a problem i [26:38] need to fix it [26:38] yeah my problem could be like my [26:40] nutrition maybe i don't need a [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [26:42] like uh [26:43] triathlon coach i need a nutritionist or [26:45] something um [26:46] so that's that's so what's interesting [26:48] here is uh i took your book and i [26:50] like put it out into problem [26:52] quantifiable impact root cause and then [26:54] like [26:55] so so i actually do this on all of my [26:57] discoveries where it's like [26:59] current stay and then just like the gap [27:00] right and i'm trying to figure that out [27:02] and what you talked about i try to do [27:04] those mini exercises [27:06] to things that like i'm like i'm an [27:09] athlete or i want to be a podcast right [27:12] how would i kind of [27:13] approach that so that example you just [27:15] gave me is something that i would [27:17] uh highly encourage like sdrs to do is [27:19] like find something you're passionate [27:21] about and see like what like some of [27:23] those root problems are [27:24] because then it changes your mindset on [27:26] how you go out and approach people so [27:28] yeah i mean if i were trying to sell you [27:30] coaching services right [27:33] and i knew this is how you do it you [27:35] know the problems you could have [27:37] and and let's say i talked about you [27:39] tell me about your training regiment and [27:40] let's say you tell me about your [27:41] training regimen and i'm like that's a [27:43] pretty solid training [27:43] i don't think there's a problem there [27:44] but clearly he hasn't finished a [27:46] triathlon yet so something's wrong [27:48] he doesn't think there's something right [27:49] i think he just needs to train harder [27:51] right because this is what [27:52] buyers are oh we're fine we just need to [27:54] do this we're not getting it done [27:55] so then i'm like we'll talk about your [27:57] tell me a little more about your [27:58] regiment about i mean your [27:59] your diet and your food and you start [28:01] talking about that [28:02] and then i start to see problems there [28:04] and i'm like okay that's not that bad [28:05] but are you aware i'm making this [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [28:07] up now you know anything [28:08] that the level of fiber you're eating [28:10] now [28:11] at the time you're eating it are [28:13] actually metabolizing in a way that blah [28:15] blah blah were you aware of that [28:16] no i got you yeah like the minute i [28:20] stopped breaking down your processes i [28:22] got you yeah they admitted [28:24] it right you they they gave you [28:26] something they they play their cards [28:28] essentially right but you're in control [28:29] the the whole yeah [28:31] yep yep awesome well i last question is [28:34] for andy i know we're running uh [28:36] here on time but just wanted to give the [28:38] last question andy [28:40] all right i think i'm good at let's just [28:42] end here [28:43] okay perfect well again keenan [28:45] appreciate your time always like [28:47] super i i mean i have this whole thing [28:49] of notes here just [28:51] you know talking to you so i really [28:52] appreciate you and [28:54] thanks for coming on the show you got it [28:56] was it helpful [28:57] oh 100 percent um i think the one that [29:00] really resonated me was uh to me was [29:03] and get them to admit they have that [29:05] problem [29:06] want to fix in that journey and then [29:09] once you figure that out [29:11] then you can start doing things like [29:12] social proof and like getting worship [29:14] tragic in your dill cycle [29:16] but i'm even gonna start doing this even [29:18] more in my discoveries as an ae [29:19] uh starting today good good good now [29:22] i'll leave this with you [29:23] because a lot of people make this [29:25] mistake right like say that they have a [29:27] problem [29:28] you can fix they admit the improv etc [29:31] young inexperienced aes or sdrs [29:34] whoever's doing the discovery [29:36] will start asking the buyer if they have [29:38] a problem [29:39] the buyer will tell them no don't ever [29:41] ever ever ever ever ask [29:43] do you have a problem ever and i do [29:46] i do this metaphor all the time my [29:48] analogy i don't know how it's called [29:49] where i call them marriage questions if [29:51] you're in my marriage question rant yet [29:53] i don't think so um yeah you're either [29:55] one of you are either one of you in a [29:56] serious relationship [29:57] or married i'm not i think [30:01] all right all right if i would go if i [30:03] would go to the average [30:05] married person and say to them are you [30:07] happily married what are they going to [30:08] tell you [30:09] yes that's the same thing when you say [30:12] to a buyer hey are you having any [30:13] problems [30:13] are you having problems with your erp [30:15] are you having problems with [30:16] your i don't know what do you what do [30:18] you sell marco [30:20] oh i haven't met octa so i i sell um [30:23] like uh authentication authorization for [30:26] developers [30:27] all right are you having any are you [30:28] having any problems with your [30:29] authentication [30:30] authorization no that's not gonna tell [30:32] you no [30:33] in any flavor of that question is going [30:36] to get a no [30:37] 90 of the time can we agree on that 100 [30:40] yeah but that's what but do do sales [30:41] people not do that they say [30:43] are you have any problems with yeah no [30:45] they do 100 [30:46] right on right they go right for the [30:48] person's no and they're [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] so what i [30:50] call them marriage questions is this [30:51] if i were a marriage therapist or i had [30:53] to find out someone had a bad marriage i [30:54] would never ask him if they're happily [30:55] married [30:56] would you have any problems in your [30:57] marriage what i would ask him is this [31:00] when's the last time you or your spouse [31:01] slept on the couch how often does [31:03] someone sleep on the couch [31:04] when is the last time one of you called [31:06] each other a name when's the last time [31:08] someone [31:09] um uh when's the last time you went on a [31:10] date night do you schedule regular date [31:12] nights when's the last time you came [31:14] home [31:15] with a with a bouquet of flowers for her [31:16] or when's the last time you came home [31:18] with a [31:18] starbucks gift card for him or a new [31:20] golf club for him or whatever the [31:21] stereotypical [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] is right [31:23] when's the light how freak where's the [31:24] last time you were intimate how [31:26] frequently are you intimate how well do [31:27] you communicate about finance was the [31:29] last time you had a fight over finance [31:31] every one of those questions [31:35] will tell me and the buyer whether or [31:37] not [31:39] they have a good marriage and here's the [31:42] power in this [31:44] even if that means they still have a [31:46] good marriage [31:48] almost always there's room for [31:49] improvement [31:51] so once you lock into room for [31:53] improvement it really comes down to the [31:55] size of the gap [31:56] so let's say they all those questions [31:57] were answered except the finance one [31:59] yeah we fight over finance a lot love my [32:00] wife we have a great marriage we fight [32:01] with finance a lot [32:02] so depending on what i'm selling if what [32:05] i'm selling [32:06] still isn't that expensive or isn't that [32:08] intrusive [32:09] they'll buy it to fix that problem in [32:12] their marriage take the marriage to the [32:13] next level [32:14] even if the marriage is an eight i've [32:16] just got to say they fight about [32:17] finances a lot and then i dig in so [32:19] because you fight over plans is what [32:20] happens [32:21] well i'm afraid to buy something or we [32:23] never go on trips or [32:24] or we don't have enough money saved or [32:26] she thinks i do and i think we don't and [32:28] now i'm panicked and did it [32:29] so i find all this stuff out and like do [32:31] you want to keep that going [32:33] no they don't so let's talk about how we [32:34] can resolve that and now they're so [32:36] buried in that whole issue about finance [32:39] the idea of whether their marriage is [32:41] good or not is so far beyond their [32:42] thoughts all they're thinking about is [32:44] the last time they had a fight [32:45] the last time that they wanted to buy [32:46] something that didn't the fact that they [32:48] got a [32:48] a box tv and not a flat screen because [32:50] the wife thinks it's a waste of money or [32:52] the guy right [32:53] and that's all they're thinking about [32:54] and they want that [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] to go away i've [32:56] really anchored them in that [32:57] in spite of the fact that they believe [32:58] they have a great marriage done i win [33:01] done i win but you can never do that by [33:04] saying [33:05] do you have a good marriage can you talk [33:06] about the problems in your marriage it's [33:08] not going to happen [33:08] i need to understand what good [33:12] looks like and what bad looks like and [33:14] then i need to ask [33:15] what i call marriage questions [33:17] surrounding it [33:19] so in your case i don't know a damn [33:20] thing about authorization authentication [33:22] whatever the hell you called it [33:23] but i need to know can you tell me about [33:26] this can you tell me about that walk me [33:27] through this has somebody ever [33:29] the wrong person has been authorized for [33:31] credentials they shouldn't have what was [33:33] the impact [33:34] what happened here and as i keep asking [33:36] those questions i'm gonna find out what [33:38] problems they have [33:39] and then when the minute i find one i'm [33:41] gonna dig into that and that's how i [33:43] start to strip [33:44] and peel it apart and make things happen [33:46] that's so interesting it kind of reminds [33:48] me of when i actually had knee problems [33:50] when i was training [33:51] the doctor they like they would go [33:53] around feeling the need does this hurt [33:54] does this hurt this is her [33:56] and then eventually they'd be like is [33:57] this why you're like oh you [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] [33:59] right but they know what they're doing [34:02] you know i know what they're doing [34:03] they know what they're looking for [34:05] exactly and that's [34:06] what you said right belief in what [34:08] you're selling have [34:10] also had curiosity but the belief in the [34:12] cell will give you that curiosity to [34:14] kind of figure out those pain points [34:16] will join [34:17] your causes problems not pain points [34:20] all day long yeah we're huge on that so [34:23] problems uh [34:24] awesome well thanks again keenan uh [34:26] nothing but value here and appreciate it [34:28] i got you baby all right thank you [34:32] thank you for listening to the sdr live [34:34] podcast [34:35] if you like this episode please share [34:37] comment and subscribe [34:39] make sure you tune in next week and have [34:41] a fantastic week

===FILE=== y9lxKg5xDp4 - Keenan On Gap Selling.txt
https://youtu.be/y9lxKg5xDp4
Keenan. On Gap Selling

[0:00] right alright everybody how you doing [0:02] out there welcome back to another [0:05] episode of sails is king and we've got a [0:08] special video episode today with a extra [0:11] special guest someone that I loved and [0:13] someone that's been very helpful to me [0:15] I'll tell you a great story [0:17] I started this podcast probably four or [0:21] five months ago [0:22] just out there just talking about sales [0:24] because I felt like you know sales [0:26] people needed a place to go online and [0:29] on podcast to kind of you know talk [0:32] about the changes that are going on out [0:34] there how to navigate this whole kind of [0:36] digital transformation and how to sell [0:39] more with value how to talk about [0:41] challenges how to find problems and not [0:44] just go in and just spit out powerpoints [0:47] and all that kind of good stuff so I [0:49] reached out to our guest today Keenan [0:51] who to me is one of the foremost experts [0:53] in leading this type of transformation [0:57] and I just have to tell you um you know [1:00] we had connected earlier on LinkedIn and [1:02] Twitter so we did have a relationship [1:03] and that's really a good example guys a [1:05] little bit of social networking you know [1:07] I reached out to him I think I sent him [1:09] a tweet or a direct message or something [1:12] and we developed a relationship and he [1:14] has been exceptionally helpful to me [1:16] because what happened was some [1:19] organizations reached out to me and said [1:20] hey Dan we want you to come in and help [1:23] us and I was like wow that's great but I [1:25] had you know never really done it as a [1:27] formal discipline before and I reached [1:30] out to Keenan and he was absolutely [1:32] helpful he talked me through kind of how [1:35] he does it because he's been out there [1:36] for a long time doing it [1:38] with big organizations so Keenan I just [1:40] want to thank you for your generosity [1:42] and your help and your direction and you [1:46] know you kind of launched a new business [1:47] for me which is really really tremendous [1:49] so thank you and Happy Holidays my [1:52] pleasure man my pleasure [1:53] look paying it forward when I first [1:56] started there were some people that [1:57] helped me when I had questions or [1:59] concerns like what do I do what I called [2:00] them and I'll give that shout out when [2:02] I'm was David Brock I mean David Brock [2:04] was there for me really really early on [2:05] so look man only don't read you [2:08] know don't pay it forward and give back [2:10] so you know as long as someone's [2:12] respectful and in serious and [2:13] mini which it was clearly you were it [2:15] was my pleasure to help so I'm glad you [2:17] got something from it [2:18] I really appreciate it so we got a lot [2:21] to talk about you know the great and [2:24] exciting thing about what we're doing [2:26] now is that it's just it's a really [2:28] exciting time to be in sales in my [2:29] opinion things are changing and if you [2:32] could get out on the forefront of the [2:34] change and kind of you know figure out [2:36] how to sell with value and and how to [2:38] really connect with people I think [2:40] you're gonna be super super successful [2:41] so I'm gonna take a step back I got this [2:44] book right here and I just want to tell [2:46] everybody about it [2:47] this is Keenan's book which you must [2:50] read it's called not taught and it's not [2:52] only just about sales but it's about [2:55] really how to be a businessman you know [2:58] how to conduct yourself as a modern-day [3:02] person I'm looking for a copy of my own [3:08] my own book but I think subtitle says it [3:12] best right a little bit yeah like what [3:14] it takes to be successful in the 21st [3:16] century that nobody's teaching you look [3:18] the rules of success of change and I [3:20] look maybe I should have used one I did [3:22] use the rules but take the word rules [3:24] out of it the 21st century and [3:27] specifically the Information Age has [3:29] given us amazing opportunities to [3:32] accelerate our career to to have more to [3:36] follow our passions to do stuff to run [3:38] our own consulting businesses I mean [3:40] it's it has completely opened up the [3:42] world yet so few people are being taught [3:45] how to do it and colleges and [3:48] universities and our parents is still [3:50] teaching us the same old what [3:52] people are can you help me rewrite my [3:54] resume imma get you are relying on your [3:55] resume you're screwed [3:57] yes you're you're part of the herd and [3:59] no one's gonna pick you out so it just [4:02] it really is about sort of you know [4:05] opening up the curtains of taking the [4:07] blinders off and saying look folks [4:08] there's a whole bunch of stuff that's [4:10] gonna allow you be successful in the [4:11] 21st century [4:12] no one's teaching you so you jump in [4:14] read this and hopefully it helps you out [4:16] and send you on a different path without [4:19] a doubt and one of the things that comes [4:21] through in this book and and even in [4:23] just watching you is just authenticity [4:25] you know being your [4:27] self you know putting it out there you [4:29] know put your knowledge out there you [4:32] know you talked about your story how you [4:33] blogged you know every day for two years [4:39] practically someone said hey you know [4:43] who is this guy and how you're you know [4:46] you you've kind of got over that tipping [4:48] point you're on Forbes and you do all [4:49] that so it's it's about hard work it's [4:52] about putting yourself out there it's [4:54] about not being afraid to take a risk [4:56] you know do a video you know and and [5:00] just go out there and do it so and [5:03] that's one big thing that keeps coming [5:04] out that I keep hearing is this [5:05] authenticity be yourself insist you know [5:08] yes you have to change kind of the the [5:11] process but throughout you know just be [5:14] yourself because that that feeling will [5:16] will take you a long way with the [5:18] customer because you got to be trusted [5:20] and you have it in here trust you know [5:22] if you're not trusted it's over that's [5:25] done done yeah so yeah so so let's talk [5:30] about you know you're out there with a [5:31] number of companies what are you know if [5:34] you had to take the top two challenges [5:37] today that salespeople are tasked with [5:40] what would you say those top one or two [5:43] are is what it's always been [5:48] look driving revenue right and you know [5:52] building pipeline getting new customers [5:54] I mean it you know like there's a lot of [5:56] smart people out there that really come [5:57] up with all these great little stuff to [5:59] talk about sales is doing but I'm just a [6:00] netted out kind of guy and sales hasn't [6:02] changed at all in that regard so those [6:04] people are being hired every day and I'm [6:06] working my clients every day to find the [6:08] salespeople they can drive the [6:09] relationships to build the pipeline to [6:12] get them to their revenue number it [6:13] hasn't changed it's the same thing now [6:15] we get different tools you get sales [6:17] lost you got CI Rams and you've got [6:19] HootSuite sand social medias and [6:20] LinkedIn and Bobby got all these new [6:22] tools right no one drops a telephone [6:24] book in anybody's desk anymore and says [6:25] get calling but the still the [6:27] fundamental principles are really simple [6:31] identify a customer engage with them so [6:35] that they'll consider talking to you get [6:37] them into your pipeline close the deal [6:40] move [6:41] book the revenue right that's that's it [6:43] that's not selling but that's that's [6:45] where we gotta go right everything in in [6:47] between there hasn't changed to offer [6:49] value right understand the problems that [6:51] they're trying to have bring solutions [6:53] to the table etc that hasn't changed how [6:56] people do it a little but you know [6:58] that's what they're still trying to do [7:00] and a lot of people struggling at it [7:01] they just have they're really struggling [7:02] at yeah I see it too you know just in a [7:06] lot of the readings and and stuff that [7:08] I'm doing but you know I think for guys [7:11] like us we've been around and there's a [7:12] lot of salespeople that have been around [7:13] a long time we were kind of taught a [7:15] different way you know know your product [7:17] go in there talk about your product yeah [7:20] yeah yeah yeah that it sticks somehow [7:24] yep and now it's it's discovery you know [7:27] and it's trying to ask the right [7:30] questions and you got to be a business [7:32] consultant almost and asking about the [7:35] industry or you know the problems and [7:37] things like that so I see this as and [7:39] many of the customers and the people I'm [7:41] dealing with they're all wrestling with [7:42] how to do it [7:44] are there any tips that you have or do [7:46] you have a framework or how do you help [7:48] these guys go in there and be more [7:50] curious yeah well look you start look [7:54] everybody used to start the product well [7:55] good observation I said I'll start with [7:56] the product then teach people how to [7:58] sell without ever ever ever bringing the [8:00] product up the first sale you want to [8:03] get them to make is to recognize and [8:05] acknowledge they have a problem like [8:08] kids oh damn things you get someone to [8:10] recognize and acknowledge they have a [8:11] problem so that should be the very first [8:13] sale any persons going after to [8:14] recognize that their target has a [8:16] problem then you got to get them to [8:18] admit that I will fix the problem I want [8:21] to fix the problem and then the third [8:22] thing you got to do is get him sell try [8:24] to fix the problem with you if you can't [8:26] get him do any of that the rest of it [8:27] doesn't really matter right so what I [8:29] tell organizations do is you have a [8:31] product or service that somebody built [8:33] whether it was 200 years ago 100 years [8:35] ago 50 years ago or last week you built [8:38] a product to solve a set of problems you [8:41] should know what problems your product [8:44] the service solves so why don't you make [8:46] a list of all of those problems and then [8:48] share them with your salespeople and [8:50] treat it like a freakin one of those [8:53] hunts what are those [8:54] Skol when you go running out scavenger [8:56] hunt right and the scavenger hunt is [8:58] find the problem start cold calling or [9:01] straight messages or emails I don't care [9:04] but structure them in a way to ask [9:06] somebody or to challenge somebody if [9:09] they're having that particular problem [9:11] and if you can get them to say yes I'm [9:14] having that problem then can you get [9:16] them to self talk to you about solving [9:18] it that's the key piece that I tell [9:20] people to do exactly and it's it's so [9:24] true and then the next part of that and [9:27] if this came up in my last interview was [9:29] helping them to to really understand the [9:33] kind of you know the cost of that [9:35] problem you know how how that improbably [9:38] impact of that problem problem yes like [9:41] okay yes I have a problem I've got a lot [9:43] of problems you know so okay so why [9:46] should I focus on that problem well okay [9:48] because here's the impact you know it's [9:51] costing you today two million dollars to [9:54] do do it the way you're doing it today [9:57] because everything I hear today is oh [9:58] I'm losing out to do nothing I'm losing [10:00] it to apathy you know right and I'd love [10:04] to get your take on it you know how do [10:05] you get how do you get that you know [10:07] that problem raised to the top that you [10:09] can help solve you know how do we move [10:11] these people out of the kind of comfort [10:13] of the status quo because that's what I [10:15] hear a lot I'm sure you do too so you [10:18] have to create a gap so I'm writing a [10:20] book right now called gap selling [10:22] fingers crossed will be out in June [10:23] right so gap selling is what you're [10:27] talking about [10:28] when you do a discovery trying to [10:29] understand their current state okay you [10:32] don't understand the current state and I [10:33] go much deeper in that bloom at the time [10:35] once you understand the current state [10:36] which includes the problem in the impact [10:38] the current problem and the impact of [10:41] the current problem and a few other [10:43] things [10:43] you then have to ask them where they [10:46] want to go what would they like to [10:47] achieve or what would they like it to [10:49] look like if that stuff went away that's [10:51] the future State mm-hmm you have a [10:53] current state in the future state right [10:55] the spacing between is the gap that's [10:58] the value right and so if you are able [11:01] to get both the current state and the [11:03] future state right so the current state [11:06] and the problem and the end [11:08] of where they are today and then you're [11:10] able to understand what the future state [11:12] would look like in the impact of that [11:13] future state now that's what you're [11:16] selling so when someone says well I [11:18] don't want to do anything anymore like [11:20] you said I was like wait a minute you [11:21] said you're doing a making this up you [11:24] said you're using Excel spreadsheets and [11:26] using two systems today and that it's [11:28] costing and for that you have to have [11:30] four different people it's taking you 27 [11:33] man-hours here to run the reports you're [11:34] losing to your competition and you think [11:36] you may be losing a million dollars in [11:37] sales if we can move from new future [11:41] state from the two systems to one system [11:42] right we'll be able to reduce those for [11:46] people doing that whatever the hours I [11:47] sit down to five you won't be losing to [11:50] your competition you'll get the million [11:51] dollars back and you may be able to get [11:53] an additional 2 million or take out [11:55] another competitor I'm confused why you [11:58] don't want to talk about this anymore [12:00] I'm confused why you're going to keep [12:02] doing what you're doing what a lot of [12:04] salespeople do is they sell a future [12:06] state void of the current state or they [12:08] sell the current state void of the [12:09] future state and they don't know how big [12:11] the gap is and the bigger the gap is the [12:14] greater probability somebody will buy [12:15] his is it again if I use all the time [12:18] and all my speaking engagements if you [12:21] have a really bad headache really bad [12:22] headache and I say to you hey I've got a [12:24] pill one pill and make the headache go [12:26] away would you pay 10 bucks for that [12:28] pill yes [12:30] ok cuz you got a bad headache right you [12:32] want to go away right what if you were [12:34] just sitting on the couch watching TV [12:36] would you still pay the $10 no maybe [12:40] yeah what if I told you that that pill [12:45] cost $100,000 would you buy it [12:47] no ok then if I ask said asking [12:51] questions like how long have you had the [12:52] headache right where in your head does [12:56] the pain exist on the right side really [12:58] does it affect your vision yes what do [13:00] you said that it does right do every one [13:03] smiley face of wobblin yeah it does I [13:05] keep it discovered keep asking all these [13:07] questions would you mind if I take a [13:08] magic juice but you mind if I take a [13:10] quick picture [13:11] no sure quick picture hey man that's not [13:14] a headache that's cancer but I got a [13:17] pill that'll make it go away for a [13:18] hundred thousand dollars the [13:20] yeah okay so that's the gap right the [13:24] current state is I have a headache and I [13:26] can't get up can't do some work so the [13:27] gap is kind of the future state is I can [13:29] do some work I can watch a television [13:30] without a headache right small gap see [13:32] that the man I do enough discovery and [13:35] it's properly assessed the problem that [13:37] I really it's not a headache it's cancer [13:39] and you could die in six months look how [13:41] big the gap is now right now that gap is [13:45] huge think the value of that pill has [13:47] just gone up a thousandfold which made [13:49] you pay more for it and the choice of [13:51] staying the status quo is less [13:53] salespeople gotta learn to understand to [13:55] broaden the gap them how to do it yeah [13:57] that is that is so just spot-on and so [14:02] so how do we help salespeople do that [14:06] you know obviously they got to get out [14:08] of their comfort zone they got to do [14:09] things that they haven't done before [14:12] it's training it's coaching how do you [14:15] how do you and how much how long does it [14:17] take like if you engage with somebody [14:19] and you're trying to get a team of sales [14:22] people to kind of going from the old [14:24] pitch perspective you know go in and [14:26] start talking demo to to this value gap [14:30] approach how long does that take and and [14:32] how do you do it well like anything it [14:34] depends on the sit on the person and one [14:36] of the things that I say is look this [14:38] takes a different type of skill set [14:39] right this this doesn't require look at [14:41] health this doesn't require the super [14:43] gregarious person this doesn't require [14:45] the mr. friendly hey everybody if they [14:48] have that skill sales skill it helps but [14:51] this requires critical thinking right [14:54] this requires a much more intelligent [14:55] person isn't requires what I like to say [14:58] intellectual curiosity they have to be [15:00] very curious about things they have to [15:03] be excellent critical thinkers so when [15:04] someone says something like oh I've got [15:06] a really bad headache they don't just [15:08] say oh I've got a headache I can fix it [15:09] like wonder why they have a headache and [15:11] they naturally know what questions [15:13] really how long have you had it [15:15] oh my gosh really is it the whole head [15:18] like they're they're just intellectually [15:20] curious and they keep asking and each [15:22] answer triggers them to go in a [15:24] different direction right and then the [15:26] last thing I think you need is really [15:28] really smart people like smart people [15:30] understand that a headache isn't just [15:33] headache it could be a migraine it could [15:34] be [15:34] answer it could be a contusion it could [15:36] be this like smart people if that with [15:38] all due respect everybody listening the [15:40] average person to dumb people don't [15:42] think that way they just they don't [15:44] process information in a way that gets [15:47] them fighting out like a lot too many [15:50] people process in a linear fashion [15:51] headache yes/no and they go like this [15:53] like linear really really intelligent [15:55] intellectually curious people one answer [15:58] gets their whole heads fighting all [15:59] different places and you want that skill [16:01] set you want them to be able to ask 2nd [16:04] 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th level questions yeah [16:08] absolutely and there's a lot of you know [16:10] thinking on your feet you know sometimes [16:13] what I hear is you know all I ask [16:15] I'm asking the question but then I'm not [16:17] even listening to the answer and then [16:19] I'm jumping into the okay well this is [16:22] what we can do or I'm going into another [16:24] question or I'm taking a sharp right and [16:27] going off off-road off message so ya [16:30] know those are all great things and I [16:32] guess and you also help with recruiting [16:33] right so um is it are there a lot of [16:36] those people out there is it hard to [16:38] find those people yes very hard for [16:40] maybe you have to think outside of you [16:42] know is it taking smart people or [16:45] consulting types and teaching them sales [16:48] skills or is it taking sellers and [16:50] thinking you know kind of probably going [16:52] both ways I would imagine it's taking [16:53] really smart people who intuitively [16:55] understand it because a lot of times [16:57] they don't articulate it well but I can [16:59] tell how quickly they they in into it if [17:01] that's the right word just by the [17:02] questions that ask them and how they [17:03] answer and I'm like don't get it but boy [17:05] I'm tracking their logic and I'm [17:06] tracking their intellect and so I can [17:09] start to feel it and the types of [17:11] questions they ask you can say okay and [17:13] then they have to be coachable you get [17:14] those people in there really coachable [17:15] they'll get it like when you start [17:17] explaining to them their eyes widened [17:19] like oh my gosh I know what to do it's [17:20] oh my god I could kill it with this [17:22] right you if they're I start getting [17:25] bigger you explain it you got the right [17:26] person if they have to start arguing [17:28] with you and they just kind of looking [17:29] at you like huh like you mind you go the [17:31] retriever looks at me then know this [17:32] person's not gonna get it yeah and I [17:34] think I saw a video of yours where you [17:36] were saying how important it is that [17:37] someone is coachable and if they're not [17:39] you're telling your people of walk in HR [17:42] and say and it out get them out it's [17:45] useless so [17:48] couple of quick topics cuz I know we're [17:49] getting a little short but um you know [17:52] closing is up obviously key right there [17:55] all the back-and-forth and all the [17:57] glad-handing and the meetings they don't [17:59] mean anything unless we close the deal [18:01] and get them to sign on the dotted line [18:03] and you know I think it kind of flows [18:06] through that if we're doing a good job [18:07] with this gap selling if we're asking [18:09] the right questions things are gonna [18:11] happen much more naturally you know we [18:14] shouldn't be having a hard sell somebody [18:16] or you know going into gimmicks and [18:18] things like that but you know you had a [18:20] very interesting video the other day I'm [18:22] putting together a closing plan that I [18:24] loved talk about that a little bit [18:26] because you know it's getting the [18:28] customer to agree to these steps and and [18:30] really almost outlining them and then [18:32] kind of putting them back to the [18:33] customer so tell us a little bit about [18:34] the closing plan and how people should [18:37] think about that yeah so I need to [18:39] preface this with a calling plan only [18:41] comes after the customer says yes [18:44] I'm going to buy your solution so in [18:47] other words they've decided that either [18:48] that they picked you over the [18:50] competition they picked you over status [18:51] quo but like right yes you know what Jim [18:53] we're gonna buy we're gonna buy we're [18:55] gonna buy from you [18:56] but in 90% of most situations the [18:58] customer says they're gonna buy or [19:00] they've decided on your product or your [19:02] service you're offering there's another [19:03] shift that has to get done contracts has [19:05] to be signed and negotiated sometimes [19:08] the the the number of license has to be [19:11] determined and like there's all kinds of [19:12] administrative stuff that has to get [19:15] done sometimes you take a week sometimes [19:17] we take several months and it drives [19:18] people insane so the closing plan is [19:21] basically getting buy-in from the buyer [19:23] first to tell you everything that they [19:26] need to do to get it signed on the [19:29] dotted line and then getting them to [19:32] participate with you and commitment so [19:34] you might say listen when we talked [19:35] about this Jim you said you wanted to [19:38] have this implemented by the end of the [19:40] first quarter they share with you it [19:41] takes three months to do that so it's [19:42] really important for us to try to get [19:44] this close by the end of December do you [19:47] think what are the steps you have to do [19:49] and what do you say we build a backwards [19:50] plan to make sure that gets done okay [19:52] you need to get in front of so-and-so [19:53] you need to do this you need this from [19:55] us okay great I'll commit to getting [19:57] this to you on Wednesday the 17th can [19:59] you get me your piece by this [20:00] you mat just like a plan you map it out [20:02] with dates and get them to buy in with [20:04] you and you do that not for you this is [20:08] the key not so you get your commission [20:09] check you only do that when they have [20:13] told you that there are certain things [20:14] or times or drivers on their end that [20:18] they want it and if it goes into next [20:20] year fine if they said no world case [20:21] signing this on January 17th okay great [20:24] what do we do you need to do to make [20:26] sure we get this done by generate 17th [20:28] and you make them commit and then you [20:31] manage them to it it's okay GMA it's the [20:33] 12th no you were gonna get me that can I [20:35] still expect it right now everybody's on [20:37] the same page yeah I don't know why I'm [20:38] taking notes we got this recorded but [20:40] it's just like that you'll have it um [20:43] yeah you know that's a great point too [20:46] because you know when we think of [20:48] closing you know as a sales person we [20:50] think about it for us right we gotta [20:51] close but you know you got to think [20:53] about it for the customer you know they [20:55] need this too so it takes a little bit [20:57] of kind of the mental pressure off but [20:59] you know it sometimes we get into this [21:01] hey it's the end of the quarter you know [21:03] can we pull this in and you know we [21:05] start pulling things more toward our [21:07] side so I think you know kind of what [21:09] you said about remembering that this is [21:11] kind of for them you know is really [21:14] really T and it's very tricky to try and [21:17] pull things in and you know get them to [21:20] kind of work toward your deadline versus [21:22] theirs because you might blow up the [21:23] whole damn deal and the relation yeah [21:25] yeah and then you stopped serving not [21:26] serving them anymore you're serving you [21:28] right exactly and then the trust element [21:30] starts to give yeah yeah last topic [21:34] because I know we got to run social [21:37] selling we hear a lot about it you know [21:40] you were just out there on LinkedIn [21:42] talking about not how to do it and it's [21:44] amazing how many people still don't know [21:47] how to do it that they see some of those [21:48] comments even get to the comments no wow [21:52] but I just and it happens all the time [21:55] and I just don't don't get it and it [21:58] really hurts it for other people who are [22:00] kind of good at what they do because [22:02] everyone's now in delete mode and [22:04] they're all on the on their heels but [22:06] give us kind of a quick you know [22:09] synopsis of proper social selling you [22:13] know that you would be teeth [22:14] you know your sales people to kind of do [22:16] what's what's kind of icky it's simple [22:23] just engagement and my opinion social [22:26] selling is simply selling on social [22:28] tools it's not anything different like [22:30] social selling is in a different way to [22:33] sell is just selling via Twitter it's [22:36] selling via LinkedIn it's selling via [22:39] Instagram and so the key the rest [22:42] doesn't change stop spamming stop [22:44] interrupting people stop yelling at them [22:47] stop pitching engage like they give you [22:50] personal information they they they [22:52] participate by commenting on things you [22:55] know LinkedIn shows you the last [22:57] activity but if you someone you're [22:59] really interested in go check their last [23:00] activity every day if they commented on [23:02] something caught go in and you know [23:04] support their comes hey I agree with you [23:06] there Jim that was great stuff that was [23:08] really cool [23:09] if they posted something go in and say [23:11] hey I love this have you thought about [23:12] these three things following it on their [23:14] on their on their uh in any uh one of [23:19] those if groups if they're in groups in [23:20] the I am following the group's like look [23:23] for opportunities to engage and connect [23:27] and build a relationship and then stop [23:30] talking about what you do and then start [23:32] doing it but don't go in there go to [23:35] someone's profile click connect right [23:37] then not send a personal message then [23:39] they accept your connection and then you [23:41] drop some hey no weirdness s program and [23:44] we'd love to talk to you about it you [23:45] got fifteen minutes I can tell you how [23:47] we can no no no no it's terrible and [23:51] then the flip side of that too is you [23:54] know your social presence right as a [23:56] sales person you know what is your [23:58] profile look like do you look like [24:01] someone that they would want to [24:03] potentially engage with right you know [24:05] do you have a profile that tells what [24:07] you do are you out there posting writing [24:11] you know video doing the crap you know [24:14] that you do great that I'm starting to [24:15] do a little bit you know and building [24:17] that trust so I think that's kind of [24:19] that definitely one of the keys well I [24:22] gotta say this has been a true honor I [24:24] really appreciate you coming on I've [24:26] been a fan of yours for a long [24:28] time and I think you're probably my [24:31] favorite you know kind of LinkedIn [24:32] personality when it comes to to sales [24:36] and if anybody here doesn't know this [24:38] guy yeah you definitely need to get to [24:40] know him you definitely need to get this [24:42] book called not taught and go check him [24:46] out it's called a sales guy is his blog [24:48] and his website he's out there working [24:51] with companies you should definitely you [24:53] know ping him if you need help because [24:55] he's solving major major problems so [24:58] Keenan again thank you so much for [25:00] coming on hang on for a couple of [25:01] minutes because we'll end this video [25:03] here and this is Dan signing off [25:05] Keenan thanks again we'll see you again [25:07] soon and this is Dan signing off on [25:10] sales is king hang on buddy

===FILE=== zmXvxhZX4xU - Gap Selling with Keenan.txt
https://youtu.be/zmXvxhZX4xU
Gap Selling with Keenan

[0:02] hey everyone are you ready to be fired [0:05] up because I am I have gotten author [0:07] here Kenan he is the author of gap [0:09] selling and he has done so much so [0:12] you're gonna learn so much today so sit [0:14] back and be ready to be fired up as you [0:17] all know with all the time that we have [0:18] going on right now I am offering my free [0:20] challenge so be sure to go to Chris to [0:22] make sure calm slash challenge that's [0:24] Kristin a short comm slash challenge and [0:26] I will personally be coaching you for [0:29] free for twenty days you want to miss [0:31] out on that [0:32] hi Kenan how are you good sister how you [0:34] doing [0:35] I really happy to have you I'm excited [0:37] about this interview I've got a lot of [0:38] research on you you're pretty much like [0:40] an awesome guy I don't care I was gonna [0:44] say that you're a bad bleep I didn't I [0:46] chose not to okay I'll do my best I [0:49] guess not to do the same but I do you be [0:52] yourself [0:53] so talk to me so you've written the book [0:55] gap selling and I know that you you know [0:58] your your your conferences you do [1:00] speaking events you're pretty much all [1:01] over the place so tell us a little bit [1:02] about you oh that's that's a big [1:05] question I mean there's a lot there you [1:07] got to narrow that down what do you want [1:09] to know selling we want we want to like [1:12] about selling right now especially with [1:14] with everything's happening in the [1:15] market with everything's happening the [1:17] world with pandemic talk to us about [1:19] your ideas about how people can still be [1:21] as successful as possible in the [1:23] industry I'm selling yes look it's [1:26] really simple to me right and I talk [1:28] about in my book in a choice of all when [1:29] it comes to selling our job as [1:31] salespeople is to influence change and [1:33] to help influence a decision right [1:36] because when you look to buy something [1:37] or somebody's looking to buy something [1:39] do things are going on it's a [1:40] foundational layer the first thing is [1:42] they got to make a decision do I change [1:44] and don't I change right and then if I [1:46] and if I decide to change then I have to [1:48] change right this sort of synonymous are [1:50] together so in order to do that what we [1:52] always do first we ask ourselves or we [1:54] do an assessment of our what I call our [1:56] current state we literally say ourselves [1:58] how do I feel right now what's going on [1:59] in my life right now and we do this [2:02] assessment most of its what I like to [2:04] say I'm subconscious but a lot of its [2:06] conscious and we come to a determination [2:08] is my current state tenable or untenable [2:10] if it is not tenable [2:13] what you mean by that explain that [2:15] tenable are not tenable it is it can I [2:18] tolerate it like duet is and I tolerate [2:21] it right so if I can't tolerate it I [2:23] don't like it and I don't want to stay [2:25] there what I do is I pick up my head and [2:28] I look and say okay what options do I [2:31] have who think I'm not buying anything [2:33] I'm not deciding to change unless my [2:35] current situation is untenable or [2:38] intolerable right so once that happens [2:41] then I'll consider changing what does [2:43] that have to do with today if you're [2:45] selling today the first thing you have [2:46] to ask yourself is how does my product [2:49] or service or whatever the frickin is [2:51] I'm selling I'm asking people to pay me [2:53] for how does that alleviate mitigate or [2:57] improve my buyers current environment [3:01] understanding what's happening today [3:03] with the shelter in place and [3:06] coronavirus and all of that stuff if I [3:09] can't answer that question stop selling [3:11] gotcha okay so people are obviously [3:13] gonna have to make some adjustments and [3:15] I really respect what you're saying [3:18] obviously whatever you're selling needs [3:20] to be solving someone's problem bringing [3:22] them closer to pleasure away from pain [3:24] and if you can answer that question then [3:26] you know and still sell them and help [3:29] somebody then move forward business as [3:31] usual if not change your messaging [3:33] change your product or service to be [3:34] able to match where people are right now [3:36] with the state that they're in correct [3:38] yes yes but you have to solve the [3:39] problem right people don't change unless [3:42] they have a problem that's like what [3:45] people miss is it's not about pain pain [3:48] is a symptom right so just cuz you have [3:51] a pain if I can't solve the underlying [3:53] problem to that pain I'm useless mm-hmm [3:56] I understand what problems are people [3:59] struggling with that my product or [4:01] service can solve in this time today [4:04] gotcha [4:05] okay so talk to me about some of the [4:07] strategies that you teach in gap selling [4:09] I mean the biggest one that I teach is [4:12] if the foundation is helping be what I [4:14] call do an assessment or diagnose the [4:16] problem of the buyer right most people [4:19] just are to to surface level they don't [4:22] really understand why the person is [4:24] buying what they're buying right in the [4:26] most sense [4:27] of transaction someone walks in I would [4:29] never do this in a transaction like this [4:31] at a Walmart but I mean even if someone [4:33] runs into a 7-eleven and Walmart grabs a [4:35] pack of gum and that's all they bought [4:36] you know there's about five six seven [4:39] ten maybe fifteen different stories [4:42] about why that person just bought that [4:44] gum right and if that if it cost more [4:48] money and the transaction was more [4:49] complex I'd want to know those are you [4:51] buying because you're about to go on a [4:53] date are you buying it because you go [4:54] out to go on a job interview are you [4:56] buying it because you just finished a [4:57] speaking engagement mouth is really dry [4:58] and it's really bothering you are you [5:00] buying it because like I don't mind it [5:02] for someone else like and those stories [5:05] drive the Malaysian to make the purchase [5:07] so if I'm in a complex sale or any type [5:10] of sale that basically is it done [5:12] immediately right in front of me and the [5:13] person is to go away and think about it [5:15] or talk to another personal processing [5:17] or evaluate it I want to know all of [5:19] that because I want to know okay if it's [5:22] very data's at your first eighty or [5:23] fifth date is it your wife or is it [5:25] someone you just met those that's a [5:27] difference right if it's your wife and [5:29] your bad breath I'll get it sucks we [5:30] should not leave you tomorrow it's 8:00 [5:32] and you're super exciting you haven't [5:34] gone on a date in six months that's a [5:36] big deal I could probably charge more [5:38] for that gun yes yes yeah I have read [5:41] your book by the way I have listened to [5:43] it so I finished him and actually listen [5:45] to it again especially right now but [5:47] it's an it's an awesome book everyone [5:48] you have to read it you're in sales no [5:50] matter what for actually any profession [5:51] that you're in because you're selling [5:53] all the time right and you're selling [5:54] basically we're all selling whether [5:56] we're selling to our husband or our kids [5:58] we're constantly trying to get them to [6:00] do what we want them to do we're always [6:03] selling so it's a good book and it [6:05] teaches you all about how to do that [6:07] epically of course ethically selling [6:08] things when you have a great product or [6:10] service or when you want to get your [6:12] idea to have somebody else agree with [6:14] you it teaches you how to do that so I [6:16] really really did love your book so yes [6:19] very very good so that makes a lot of [6:21] sense you've got to have a they have to [6:22] have a problem that you can actually [6:23] solve now how do you convey what's the [6:25] best way to convey the fact that you can [6:26] solve that problem so you're asking the [6:29] right question and you and I'm gonna [6:30] jump on to something you just said you [6:32] said do it ethically what's so great [6:34] about getting up selling is you can't do [6:35] it unethical because what gasoline [6:38] teaches you to do is find out that [6:40] buyers motive [6:41] nation and leverage the buyers [6:43] motivation to help them make the [6:46] decision so all you become is that is [6:49] the decision influencer or exchange [6:51] influencer you're not selling anymore [6:53] right so again knows what I said I teach [6:55] you how to get information that it [6:57] normally wouldn't get well if you have [6:59] one you know using the stupid gum [7:00] example if you have one teller sitting [7:02] there and you walk in and what's the [7:04] they offer to buy the gum and they ask [7:06] him one question say great see you [7:08] laters for a date you have another one [7:09] who really really digs in right and says [7:12] well what do you want it for how long [7:14] has it been since you dated how much do [7:15] you like this guy or girl where are you [7:17] going on the date blah blah blah blah [7:19] blah all of that information now says [7:22] you know what you might not want this [7:23] gum you need this gum or you don't want [7:24] this gum you want this instead you can [7:26] create an upsell and you put it all in [7:28] their lap and say based on what you told [7:31] me this is my recommendation this is why [7:36] you should buy this is why this is good [7:39] for you not hey my gum does this [7:40] business buy it it's the other way [7:43] around it's what you've told me what you [7:45] where you are today what you're trying [7:47] to accomplish what's important to you [7:49] this is what I'm recommending [7:51] it's almost impossible for them to have [7:53] objections anymore because you're [7:55] serving them them on a platter not your [7:57] product they're you're serving them on [7:59] the planet so basically you're getting [8:01] them to really come to the analysis that [8:04] they need your product or service based [8:06] upon all the issues and problems that [8:08] they have you are the solution to it so [8:10] there are the ones that are coming to [8:11] that recommendation yes now what you got [8:16] to get them there so you want to do some [8:18] role-playing okay okay okay so I'm your [8:25] your work you're the seller obviously [8:28] I'm the client and I'm a real estate [8:31] agent right now okay and right now um [8:34] real estate agents are having difficulty [8:37] selling now first let me tell you what [8:39] you're selling so the products and [8:40] service that you're selling is you're [8:41] teaching real estate agents and business [8:44] owners small business owners local [8:45] business owners how to utilize digital [8:48] marketing technology and social media to [8:51] operate business so basically we're [8:52] teaching them how to not do [8:55] things the traditional way it's not your [8:56] traditional open house door knocking [8:58] cold calling in fact we teach completely [9:00] opposite of that we teach social media [9:02] video funnels right digital stuff and [9:06] then we teach them how to attract [9:08] business and stop chasing it and so [9:10] that's that's that's what we teach and [9:12] we show people how to like expose [9:14] themselves to you know hundreds of [9:17] thousands of people locally how to get [9:19] you know six hundred hours of watch time [9:21] on a video how to just make sense so [9:23] that's we teach you understand the you [9:25] know the funnel is right okay we're [9:27] moving on the funnel so that's what we [9:28] teach real estate agents and local [9:30] businesses so I'm I want to buy I mean [9:34] I'm kind of glad to talk to you [9:35] hello all right just one last question [9:38] how much you charge for this so we have [9:40] multiple packages 10,000 15,000 and [9:42] 20,000 said whatever it's what I have a [9:47] ballpark yeah 15 kids like and we [9:49] obviously have lower price programs out [9:51] there too but 15k is the one that most [9:53] people into buying into and then they [9:54] end up actually up they end up going up [9:56] once they're in like Angus is so good [9:57] they end up going up higher well that's [9:59] it that's a high ticket right but right [10:00] now they need it more than ever [10:02] yep okay all right so you're calling in [10:05] now you called it am i calling you [10:06] um you I'm gone hello this is Krista [10:11] thanks for calling Keenan hey Krista how [10:14] you doing what's going on I'm just I'm [10:16] just I'm just sitting you ready for our [10:18] sales call you know that this is our [10:19] point in time oh yeah I'm the buyer [10:26] you're that you're that you're the sales [10:27] guy what prompted you what what prompted [10:29] you to take this call I know you're busy [10:31] and there's a lot going on so what [10:32] probably to take the call [10:34] oh I read Krista's books and I mean I've [10:36] listened to her podcast and she seems [10:37] like she knows what she's talking about [10:38] and you know I just thought it might be [10:40] gonna do that especially with everything [10:41] going on right now that I might be a [10:43] good idea to kind of see what you guys [10:44] have to offer okay good show me a little [10:47] bit about your your practice here your [10:49] your business right now Chen a little [10:50] bit a little bit about it um well I'm a [10:53] real estate agent and [10:55] I do lending on the side as well so I [10:57] kind of do both and I heard her program [10:59] works for both growth businesses and you [11:01] know the market is just crazy right now [11:03] we nobody wants to leave their house [11:06] sellers don't want [11:07] buyers into homes I mean it's just like [11:09] the whole market is just kind of gone [11:11] upside down so I'm not sure like how do [11:13] I even operate at this point and 19 [11:19] years okay how did you do in 2018 how [11:22] many transactions for total revenue or [11:25] total gross sales did you do okay I'm [11:28] not gonna say what I really did I [11:29] remember feel like I'm the the average [11:30] no you can't make this person up I don't [11:32] care what you're doing here I'm making [11:33] you're a real estate agent right you're [11:35] not Christa your real estate don't care [11:38] what you tell me okay um I sold I sold [11:40] 12 houses I chose I was happy with that [11:42] you know twelve houses is pretty good [11:44] okay and the average sale for each house [11:47] um it's around six grand okay six grand [11:51] so you did about 72,000 or yeah I think [11:55] seventy-two thousand last year yeah - [11:57] commit - pay my broker - all that I [11:59] probably took home around you know 45 50 [12:02] okay all right and what about the year [12:05] before that in 2018 um about the same I [12:08] pretty much seem to say consistently [12:10] around that number you know give or take [12:11] every once in a while okay do you want [12:15] to grow the practice oh yeah definitely [12:17] I mean I I definitely would like to sell [12:19] more obviously because you know my kids [12:21] are gonna be going to college so you [12:22] know I gotta pay for that and you know [12:23] and now I'm worried about how many [12:26] things able to sell at all because the [12:27] reason that's happening in the market I [12:28] mean I've known for a long time that I [12:30] need to start you know using innovation [12:32] and technology and and some of the you [12:34] know in social media but I just don't [12:35] know how to do it or where to start and [12:37] I'm I'm not gonna technology so I'm just [12:39] kind of stressed you know okay is the [12:42] reason you haven't done this in the past [12:44] because you don't know how is that the [12:47] only thing that's been keeping you from [12:48] doing it um [12:50] yeah I don't know how I mean I know you [12:51] know Krista pushes video and I you know [12:53] I'm I don't like the way I look on video [12:54] and I'm technology is just difficult for [12:57] me and I mean it's worked for me before [12:58] the way I've always done things I mean I [13:00] know she talked about attracting [13:01] business and you know and I see the [13:03] results of what she's able to do which [13:05] is pretty awesome but I mean maybe [13:06] that's just you know I don't know that's [13:08] maybe she's making it up I don't know [13:10] let's let's stop let's not talk about [13:13] Krista right now cuz I know we can make [13:16] an impact but I really want understand [13:17] is what's going on with your business so [13:18] you've been steady for several years [13:20] is that my design do you set a goal [13:23] every year um no I wouldn't say is that [13:27] a goal I mean I just kind of hope also [13:29] more from one year to the next [13:30] okay so what about the challenge of it's [13:33] fair for me to say is one of the [13:34] challenges may or may not be what you're [13:36] doing it's just a mere fact that you're [13:37] not really even started in year with an [13:39] objective yeah yeah yeah okay so when [13:46] you came into this year you didn't start [13:47] set a goal for this year either did you [13:49] no okay so each year you're doing about [13:53] 70 thousand dollars roughly and then [13:56] after you give your share away you're [13:58] getting about 45 50 thousand are you [14:00] raising your family on this or do you [14:03] have a spouse or partner that helps [14:04] augment or are you raising a family on [14:06] this my partner does too but my money is [14:07] important and like given what's [14:09] happening right now I'm just I'm more [14:11] nervous now than ever because I can't do [14:13] business what I used to do it right [14:15] things have just changed so much okay so [14:18] yes things have changed a lot tell me [14:20] about how you did it before well I would [14:23] do open houses you know and usually I'd [14:25] pick up a client or two from an open [14:27] house and and then you know everyone [14:29] smile I'd go I'd go door knocking I try [14:31] to call sirens if I ever see expired to [14:33] try to do that so you know I'm just [14:35] doing that I'm just doing the things [14:36] that my broker tells me to do okay how [14:40] often are you doin open houses and then [14:42] what is your conversion rate from the [14:43] people you find in an open house that [14:45] you actually get a closed deal um I do [14:48] open houses probably pretty much every [14:50] weekend it's not every other weekend so [14:51] probably at least twenty four times a [14:53] year and I would say probably you know [14:56] every couple open houses I'll pick up [14:57] I'll pick up a buyer or maybe a seller [15:00] from it um and that's how I average [15:02] remember my twelve houses I get [15:03] referrals every once in a while too so [15:05] so you're doing it one once a week or [15:09] once or once every week you're actually [15:10] doing 36 it's not 24 [15:12] oh wow am i well if you do it every week [15:15] you're gonna do 50 do it every other [15:17] once week and then every other week [15:19] after that then you're probably doing [15:20] more than that right so yeah I would [15:22] probably six right 36 a week 36 weeks a [15:28] year you're doing this and you're only [15:29] getting 12 closes a year you're making [15:32] $45,000 that's [15:33] like a lot of work for a small return I [15:36] agree I agree I know I'm tired of I'm [15:39] sick of sit at open houses I'd rather be [15:41] making doughnuts for my kids not for the [15:43] people that are coming to the open house [15:44] you know I'm answer this question too at [15:47] six thousand dollars that means your [15:48] average sale of a house is around three [15:50] hundred thousand something like that [15:51] right yeah it's it's around three [15:54] hundred thousand yeah three hundred a [15:56] little bit lower than that 250 ish [15:58] mm-hmm [15:59] have you got a desire to go upstream to [16:01] be able to sell more expensive homes [16:02] yeah I'd like to I mean probably the max [16:06] in my area is probably close to around [16:07] you know 350 is the highest high point [16:10] okay so there's not a lot of room for [16:12] you to go much higher than that and that [16:14] particularly is a reason you're not [16:15] going to other neighborhoods or is that [16:16] just as far as you can get it Tony yeah [16:18] it's pretty much in my area that's what [16:19] houses are worth okay I just want to [16:21] sell more like if I could just sell you [16:23] know if I could sell even six more [16:27] houses in a year right that would be a [16:29] significant like $25,000 if I could sell [16:31] 12 more houses in here just one more [16:33] house a month which I feel like it's [16:35] reasonable if I just have the right [16:36] skills then that I'd be making another [16:38] 50 grand that would like pay for my kids [16:40] college and I could have some money in [16:41] the bank sorry so cuz I'm gonna break [16:44] role play here real quick because you're [16:46] making it easy for me okay because every [16:49] time you keep saying what I want to do [16:51] you're thinking about your own business [16:53] and you're basically setting me up for [16:55] what you believe your business can do [16:57] for this person right okay but I which [16:59] is personally fine which is fine in but [17:01] what I'm trying to show you listeners [17:02] and trying to do is she fit think about [17:05] this now [17:06] because I pay attention this woman only [17:08] makes $45,000 a year okay you're gonna [17:12] be asking her for anywhere between 20 [17:14] and 30 percent of her total yearly [17:16] income hey I am NOT going to start [17:20] trying to sell her a new product until I [17:22] can get her to see that this farm is [17:24] monstrous okay guys yeah okay [17:26] because it's not enough to just say oh [17:29] yeah I can give you this I can give you [17:30] this because she needs to understand [17:32] that where she is and she needs to feel [17:34] where she is is so painful everybody [17:36] said it's untenable okay you know that's [17:38] so intent about to the point and that's [17:40] where the gap comes in current state [17:42] future state the gap is so big that [17:44] she's willing about 30 [17:47] percent of what she takes home in one [17:51] year to buy your program okay so I'm [17:54] trying to make that as big as possible [17:55] that's why one of the things I jumped on [17:58] my was like so wait a minute you're [17:59] spending 36 out of 52 weeks to just get [18:04] 12 sales or $45,000 mm-hmm [18:08] I say so if I break that down basically [18:11] they're getting only a thought you [18:13] basically you're spending a flat or [18:15] you're getting a thousand dollars for [18:17] that open house that's awfully low [18:20] yes gotcha mm-hmm here yeah totally okay [18:24] I got it [18:25] so that's where we would take this is I [18:27] would just keep digging in and that's [18:29] why I asked about the spouse look gap [18:31] selling is not easy and sometimes you [18:32] got to be comfortable being [18:33] uncomfortable because if if she were in [18:36] this might surprise you but if she were [18:37] the sole person in her home I don't know [18:41] that I would sell this or I would start [18:43] figuring out ways if you had payment [18:45] plans whatever because I wouldn't feel [18:46] comfortable taking where 80% of a person [18:49] male or females whole income who's got a [18:52] raise kids on that cuz if it fails [18:54] they're done I just bank run right yeah [18:57] got a feel man we talked about ethically [18:59] I've got a feel that if she makes this [19:02] level of investment she's going to [19:04] recoup it and with about a hundred [19:06] inaccuracy because I am NOT going to [19:07] take 15 grand I'm a single mother who [19:09] only makes $45,000 and can barely make [19:11] her rent you know I'm saying yeah sure [19:14] know that she's going to get 60 or 65 [19:16] this year and then eighty and a hundred [19:17] next year and so on and so forth gotcha [19:20] yeah no that's why I do this is I want [19:22] to dig in and I want to know who you are [19:24] and I want to know how you're doing it [19:27] so I would have dug in more after I went [19:28] down the road of um open houses okay [19:31] talking about how you mark it be it [19:33] digitally how would you market digital [19:35] how do you market digitally I don't I [19:38] mean I do I have flyers and stuff that I [19:40] do and those flower fliers well my [19:43] company pays for them it's not that big [19:45] of a deal you know and do they pay the [19:47] postage as well um well I don't really [19:51] send money match up with postage I just [19:53] kind of you know put the fires at the [19:55] houses or what I do the open houses so [19:57] how many how many [19:58] leaves you get from that I would say [20:01] none I know [20:02] known honestly but I do you think you [20:05] spend in a year dealing up flowers you [20:09] know I mean before every open house I [20:11] make sure I've got the fires of the [20:12] house I make sure I've got other houses [20:14] that are similar to that house in case [20:16] they want to see other one so I you [20:17] usually have four or five pages of that [20:18] um you know it isn't so much money as it [20:22] is time [20:23] well money fear that mostly time yeah [20:25] how much time do you think you spend Oh [20:27] at least an hour at least hour and a [20:29] half ride prepping all that stuff for [20:30] sure how many time like each each but [20:32] time you do an open house oh yeah yeah [20:34] for sure because I have to you know know [20:36] the other house is in the area with it [20:37] but they're like I gotta make sure I [20:38] have the flyer of the actual house I'm [20:39] doing it on yeah for sure [20:41] anywhere between 36 and 50 hours a year [20:43] and you get no return on that yeah [20:46] probably [20:48] make me feel pretty down murky yeah so [20:52] you see what I'm doing here I'm now [20:54] what's called dissecting the root cause [20:56] and by dissecting the root cause I'm [20:59] trying to understand why you're in the [21:01] position you're in [21:02] gap selling is all about trying to [21:05] understand the position they're in and [21:06] the problems they're having and the [21:08] outcomes are impacts of those problems [21:09] but when I'm done with you because look [21:12] we you have I know you wanna ask more [21:13] questions but a discovery call for me [21:16] can go anywhere from 35 minutes to 90 [21:18] minutes depending on the complexity of [21:19] the problem who I'm talking to you and I [21:21] I'm I'm done I'm gonna know everything [21:24] about you how you do your job today how [21:26] much you make um how much time you spend [21:28] to get that how much you invest to get [21:29] that how long it's been going like that [21:31] way you want to get and I'll up frame [21:33] this huge yeah so when I finally come [21:35] time to talk to you about Krista's [21:37] brilliant program I'm gonna say listen I [21:39] think we can solve this for you I think [21:41] we can cut out all of that time you're [21:43] spending on open houses only for one or [21:45] two and I think we can do it this way [21:46] and I think we can cut this out and make [21:48] this happen I think we can turn those [21:50] twelve leads into 24 lead ins how we [21:52] would do it I think rather than the only [21:53] getting you know an average of two [21:55] hundred thousand dollars per se I think [21:56] we can push that up to about three [21:57] hundred thousand dollars per sale so now [21:59] your average Commission text when it [22:00] debuts how we would do it right you know [22:02] I'm taking everything she'd you just [22:05] shared with me and I'm laying it out for [22:07] you in an entirely new approach as a [22:09] consultant not as a [22:12] pitchman mm-hmm and she was gap selling [22:14] I remember reading that you were saying [22:15] how you gather the information and then [22:18] you make it an appointment to come back [22:19] and like present it with all of the [22:21] solutions you don't just do it right [22:23] then like you you gather the information [22:24] in fact find and then you go and you [22:27] just you say okay now based upon what [22:29] you've said here's how we can help you [22:30] ABC yes it's exactly how you do it it [22:33] changes everything Christa changes [22:35] everything yeah yeah I just listen to do [22:38] it um like within the past two months it [22:40] was it was a really really good book I [22:41] didn't go back and listen to like five [22:42] more times because my brain works that [22:43] way yeah very much so [22:46] okay so what do you see like the biggest [22:48] mistakes that people make so for [22:50] professional type people that are [22:51] professionals you know in the in any [22:53] industry what are the biggest mistakes [22:54] that you see them making so the biggest [22:57] mistakes that they make as they try to [22:59] pitch too fast they tried to start [23:01] pushing their product to service okay [23:03] and when you stop pitching your product [23:05] to service I want you to it I mean I [23:06] guess the spaghetti analogy really is [23:08] apropos if you start pitching what your [23:11] product and service can do to somebody [23:13] before you understand their current [23:15] state and before you understand what [23:17] their current state problem is an impact [23:19] that it's having on them it's like [23:21] throwing spaghetti against the wall and [23:23] seeing what sticks and sometimes people [23:25] are really good at being thorough and [23:27] articulate when they can get more stuff [23:29] to stick than others [23:30] other times people aren't very good at [23:32] it and it doesn't stick at all it should [23:33] have stuck we didn't know and so they [23:37] lose the buyer they sell before they [23:41] actually understand that's right they [23:44] try to sell before they understand using [23:45] an old Stevie come ISM seek first to [23:48] understand okay so selling before they [23:50] understand so even so even talked about [23:52] let's just say real estate right they [23:53] get one they me to sell her a buyer and [23:55] um what how would you say the best way [23:58] to develop to start that relationship [24:00] was same same type of thing I'm a seller [24:02] no yes so you want to sit out and you [24:04] want to you want to ask them why they're [24:07] selling where they're going what they [24:10] want out of the house you know but I [24:13] want to understand what's going on the [24:14] world is if their kids just graduated [24:16] with touring they're downsizing [24:18] are they moving to another place because [24:20] their husband or wife just got a new job [24:22] like I want to understand what's going [24:23] on what's behind it is [24:25] to sell right what are they going to do [24:28] with that money when they cells being [24:29] reinvested is it to buying a bigger home [24:32] like what's going on right I want to [24:34] understand all that so I'm gonna stood [24:35] out and basically have a long [24:37] conversation with and then once you know [24:39] those answers let's just say I'm a [24:41] seller and I want to sell because my [24:43] Johnny just went away to college and you [24:47] know quite frankly the house is just [24:48] getting too big we're starting to retire [24:50] we don't we don't want to have all those [24:52] you know all the heavy overhead so how [24:55] does that look when it comes to now [24:57] we've met I have I know other problems [24:59] I've reviewed the house now it's time to [25:02] sign the listing agreement what's your [25:04] clothes so even before I do that I would [25:05] so use the information you gave me I'd [25:07] want to know a couple things okay [25:09] the only one off to college I want to [25:10] downsize can you still afford the home [25:13] or is it it is it a bit taxing and you [25:17] not only you want to downside but now [25:18] you're on a fixed income and you don't [25:20] want to carry this not anymore [25:21] yes okay notice how that matters yes [25:26] what I'm going to say is listen in this [25:28] market I think we could get I'm making [25:30] up another million dollars for your home [25:31] okay [25:32] however it could take a little longer [25:35] because it's a bigger home it's in this [25:36] price range blah blah blah okay because [25:39] you want to get out of this faster I [25:40] think we pick four months in a million I [25:43] think we could probably get out of it in [25:47] two months for you know nine nine five [25:52] right something like that so are you [25:54] willing to give up fifty thousand thirty [25:56] thousand to twenty thousand whatever to [25:57] get out of it faster here's my [25:59] recommendation [26:00] based on what you told me this is how we [26:04] deliver on your desired outcome I might [26:06] ask also do you have another place foul [26:08] right have you already put a down [26:11] payment on that are you carrying both [26:12] the only carrying one I want to [26:14] understand all of this because what I'm [26:16] going to recommend is based on what they [26:18] told me yes that makes sense and that's [26:21] so again you're solving the problem so [26:23] you're finding out the issues they're [26:25] having and you're having the solution [26:27] making sure that your product or service [26:29] is a solution to their problem problem [26:30] and here's not why it's gonna be [26:31] beneficial to a realtor cuz I get it [26:33] Realtors and I oh I don't mean to offend [26:35] anybody but it is what it is I can tell [26:37] you [26:37] mutinous nine out of ten buyers I mean I [26:40] know attend Realtors would have said oh [26:41] we got a 1.1 for this for you we get 1.2 [26:44] will you do this and they're going to [26:45] convince them they can get 1.2 and know [26:48] that tell them I didn't get a million [26:49] two million one but it's going to take a [26:50] little longer to sell and they're gonna [26:53] appreciate the fact that you're gonna [26:55] listen it slightly lower to get them out [26:57] of it faster even though you might lose [26:59] three three four thousand dollars in [27:01] commissions because you're working for [27:04] them and that's what's gonna [27:06] differentiate you from the other person [27:08] who's want to put it 1.1 to maximize [27:10] that Realtors bank account understating [27:12] the family sat in that damn place for an [27:15] extra six months and up to four thousand [27:17] dollars and freaking forty eight [27:19] thousand dollars and I'm in mortgage [27:21] payments because you mr. realtor wanted [27:24] to get you one point hey listeners [27:25] aren't like that [27:26] Keenan my listeners are all about the [27:28] customer in the consumer this is good [27:30] then they're gonna love this and this is [27:31] gonna help them do that [27:32] actually my my tribe they totally are [27:34] all about ethical ethical selling we [27:36] have we actually talking about ethically [27:38] selling though okay great so [27:40] understanding the problem of your [27:42] customer being the solution of that [27:44] problem really really thoroughly [27:45] investigating asking questions you know [27:48] understanding the whole gamut from A to [27:50] Z of the situation that they're in the [27:52] problems they're having the what's [27:54] happening now but we have later based [27:55] upon that and then many of those [27:57] problems the impact of those yes [27:59] and then does your predators you just [28:01] find the solution can you really help [28:02] them if yes great if not make a [28:04] recommendation on what might bingo yeah [28:07] I love it [28:08] great yeah you can tell I read your book [28:11] and you didn't have my sales team go [28:13] back and read it again because when I [28:14] was like you know right and everything [28:16] down like crazy [28:17] okay awesome so I always end every [28:19] single single pot gets the same and it [28:21] is if you had to give one piece of [28:22] advice to the listeners what would that [28:26] one piece of advice me and these are [28:28] just not it's just it's all like local [28:31] professionals not just Realtors local [28:32] professionals business owners everybody [28:33] okay and this is a sales advice or [28:36] advice in general just any advice at all [28:38] in it whatever you want [28:39] if you said go eat beats every night and [28:41] then we'd say cool so I say this anytime [28:44] I get it's oddly a common question for [28:46] podcasts and I say the same thing every [28:47] time get real with yourself [28:50] stop lying to yourself every one of us [28:55] spend so much time lying to ourselves [28:58] pretending with something we're not [29:00] trying to tell us sell some narrative to [29:02] make ourselves feel good get real with [29:04] yourself stop owning me weaknesses start [29:07] owning the lies and fix them and be [29:09] authentic because too often were trying [29:13] to build a facade [29:14] we stopped believing that beside we [29:16] stopped creating a narrative that works [29:17] for us that we're great this we don't [29:19] have this problem we wear great lists or [29:21] a great spouse mother and we're not [29:22] we're not as good as we could be [29:24] we stunt our own growth and everybody [29:26] hurts because of it get real with [29:28] yourself stop doing a self-assessment [29:31] and get honest and real see and stop [29:32] being your authentic vulnerable self I [29:34] like that that's a good answer that was [29:37] I think that's honestly one of my [29:38] favorite answers that I've that I've [29:40] gotten everyone with yourself we should [29:47] always be improving social media is [29:49] making it harder for us to be oh my gosh [29:51] I have this program called teens lifting [29:53] lives and these poor kids like they are [29:56] just so messed up because of social [29:57] media all people post is the good stuff [29:59] they don't post the bad stuff so kids [30:01] are in the illusion that everyone else [30:02] in life just has amazing life that's we [30:04] have such high steen age suicide it's so [30:06] so true if you can keep your kids away [30:08] from social media do it until they're [30:10] like 20 so bye bye music what you my to [30:13] use it appropriately yeah yeah well kina [30:15] I really appreciate your time [30:17] loved your book gap selling go out and [30:19] buy it and your it's not your voice [30:21] though on gap selling on you didn't [30:22] wasn't yours okay for some reason I [30:25] thought it was a different voice because [30:27] surprised I'm not like it's not ringing [30:29] about cuz I mean I've just recently [30:30] listened Jim but I listen to somebody [30:31] books so now I'm gonna go listen to it [30:33] again and remind myself of how wonderful [30:35] it was you should go out and buy gap [30:36] selling as well Keenan do you have any [30:38] special offers for our guests I'm sorry [30:45] I just got my asthma gap I do it through [30:48] Amazon and they don't make it easy to [30:50] create special offers it is what it is [30:52] you don't saying yeah no I totally [30:54] understand but you'll love it you'll [30:56] crush it you'll have a great time with [30:57] it you will not be disappointed it truly [30:59] is an amazing book I mean absolutely [31:00] it's very well written [31:02] it's just it's to the point and go out [31:05] by it and remember everyone listening is [31:07] awesome but if you don't take action [31:09] nothing happens you have to actually [31:10] implement what you're learning so go [31:12] read the book implement take a [31:14] self-assessment try to become better and [31:16] Kenan I appreciate you so much for being [31:18] here thank you sister appreciate it [31:20] everyone make it a great day thanks for [31:21] a little bit of your time hey there I [31:22] have a brand new podcast called fired up [31:25] with Christa me sure Bry bring my high [31:27] energy right to your ears this podcast [31:30] is available on all your favorite [31:32] podcast platforms so do me a favor go [31:34] subscribe and leave a review all this [31:36] information is 3 and I cannot wait [31:38] teaching everything I know [31:39] thanks so much for watching my video you [31:42] can learn more about how to be a [31:43] successful real estate professional by [31:45] watching other videos that I have and be [31:47] sure to subscribe to my channel and as [31:49] always making a great home selling and [31:50] buying day [31:51] [Music]
